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Can I add anyone I think might be a candidate? Or shall I wait until they announce their candidacy? No/ All the possible candidates should be removed and as people comment that they will stand then they should be added but not until. Off2riorob ( talk) 19:58, 10 May 2010 (UTC) Off2riorob ( talk) 19:56, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
It has been reported on Sky that the Cabinet have agreed that no one will annouunce their intention to stand until after the discussion with the Liberal Democrats is over. Off2riorob ( talk) 20:14, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Breaking news, Cleg says he did not ask Brown to stand down. Off2riorob ( talk) 20:17, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
The list of possible candidates, was started again by an IP. It is valueless speculation. Adding possible names and removing them and adding joke names that some writer somewhere has added, it is just not what we are here to do. Keep any speculated names out of the article, there will be actual names in the next few days. Off2riorob ( talk) 14:34, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
I do not like this word 'triggering', even though it now has a cite for having been used in the media. Has an official process been initiated yet or not? Because that is what the word 'triggering' means to my mind. If not, then all that has happened is that he has said he will go, and an official process of a leadership election will begin at some point in the future. MickMacNee ( talk) 22:22, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Put very simply, how has a formal process begun, if there are no candidates, no election date, and (presumably), no formal resignation letter or date, of the incumbent? All we have, is an announcement it is to occur, at some vague point in the future. If that means 'triggerred', then so be it. It doesn't ring true with me. MickMacNee ( talk) 23:39, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Given that this election will be unlike the 2007 election, I don't think it provides much of a guide on how to handle publicly declared Commons PLP supporters of each candidate. Theoretically, we could have 257 names listed either as candidates or supporters (assuming Brown really does stay in and really does stay out of the election). With Alan Johnson supporting David Miliband, it is only a matter of time before this becomes an issue, so I thought I'd bring it up now. If we do list them, do we also want to list Lords PLP supporters? - Rrius ( talk) 08:04, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Why should the frontrunner undeclared candidates (Miliband jnr, Balls, Cruddas) not be mentioned? They are the primary focus of the coverage in reliable sources, and this article is very deficient without their inclusion. 86.41.61.203 ( talk) 23:08, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
The background section should explain, at minimum, why there was a leadership election (i.e. results of the election from a Labour point of view), why Brown's resignation unfolded as it did (negotiations with Lib Dems), the debate about an immediate election vs one in September. All this can be done in a paragraph, so I am very surprised at the reversions. Unless there are sound objections, I will resume building this section to give the topic its proper context. 86.41.61.203 ( talk) 23:10, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
Almost al the content in the ede is being duplicated in the backgroulnd section , the lede and the background need merging to a simple section. Off2riorob ( talk) 00:01, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
John_McDonnell_(politician) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
This guy has been added as a candidate, the citation does not support the claim? Off2riorob ( talk) 20:56, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
Is this a joke? Why are you edit warring this rubbish? Off2riorob ( talk) 21:56, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
“ | A third MP, John McDonnell, a veteran leftwinger, also announced his intention to stand, while Ed Balls, the former education secretary, is expected to declare his candidacy this week. | ” |
There is nothing to comfirm that this person is a candidate at all. there is no press coverage at all, he is not a candidate at all, are there supporting reports? Adding press stories and commentary is not what we are here to do, The sun thought we should say this and the telegraph wanted us to say this and the express said this. Off2riorob ( talk) 22:23, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
You are adding false content about living people. This living person has not nominated himself, you have a single claim that is not supported, and you are warring to keep its valuelessness in the article. what for? Off2riorob ( talk) 22:41, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
The blp Of this person that is claimed to be a candidate John_McDonnell_(politician) has no edits at all at his article, why is that? if he is a candidate then why are there no reports? There are no reports at all in the press and in the media. Your adding your citation and warring the content when it is clear that there are no reports about this claim/ Off2riorob ( talk) 22:45, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
The point is, just because a newspaper said something is happening, doesn't mean it is actually happening. Has John McDonnell announed he intends to stand? No. Has he said he is considering standing?. No. Does this Times article even source the claim? No. And finally, the million-vote question, will McDonnell's name be on the ballot paper? Quite possibly not. 82.38.97.148 ( talk) 19:02, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
I have removed this as it is worthless speculation, according to the press. In addition, the Times is reporting that Ed Balls will announce his candidacy during the week of 16 May; that John McDonnell intends to announce he is standing; and that John Cruddas and Andy Burnham, the former Health Secretary, are considering joining the race. [3] Off2riorob ( talk) 23:11, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
I am fuzzy, but I appreciate you removing your inserted falsehood from the article. Off2riorob ( talk) 23:25, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
Are you joking? Mcdonnel has not announced, well he is not being reported in the press as having announced. but him back if you insist but it is not being reported. It looks false to me. John_McDonnell_(politician) Off2riorob ( talk) 23:47, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
There is nothing encyclopedic or long term about the claims of the press that jonny is a potential candidate, the whole comment requires removing and not renaming. Worthless speculation would be as good a header. Removal is the correct thing to do. Off2riorob ( talk) 19:31, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
We have it in the article that Cruddas is a 'potential candidate . according to the times, tonight he is reported on national news to have rejected any intention to stand, we should correct this, it was only added yesterday and we should simply remove the whole press speculation or we will only have to add that the times said it thought that Crudas was going to stand but then Crusddas didn't stand, as I said its valueless and non encyclopedic content and only twenty four hours later is citable as incorrect. Off2riorob ( talk) 22:15, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
I have not abandoned anything. As I have said here I feel bad to re-comment, I have posted my points and case, I won't continue to repeat, time has so far shouted in my support. Actually the only notable thing is that there are so few announcements. Off2riorob ( talk) 23:18, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Declined what? Off2riorob ( talk) 23:02, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Senior Labour figures including Jack Straw, Alan Johnson, Peter Hain and Yvette Cooper have ruled themselves out... cited to this article in the times online http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article7128845.ece, there is no attribution at all no comment that, we have spoken to these people and they have said this..... The issue for me is, well they never ruled themselves in did they? no, its press speculation, this was never going to happen but the times said that it had not happened. Really? Off2riorob ( talk) 23:07, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Why do we not have a picture of John McDonnell in the candidates section? We have Balls, Burnham and the Miliband Brothers. so McDonnell should be there as well. Will anyone object if I add one with some detail and a reference? TheRetroGuy ( talk) 18:29, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
IMO it seems excessive to have two pictures of the same people in a small article, all the pictures have been duplicated in the infobox, it it just me and my browser that thinks it is valueless duplication? Off2riorob ( talk) 18:49, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
I have a suggestion. How about, for now, we get rid of the images and candidate information in the infobox and rely on the gallery? If, after the 27th, there are 6 or fewer candidates who have gotten their 33 signatures, then we could add those people to the infobox, and leave the images of anyone who does not in a section for candidates who failed to get on the ballot. I think that would also mean removing the candidate information from the infobox for the time being. - Rrius ( talk) 07:46, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
http://labour-uncut.co.uk/category/inside This link does not look wikipedia reliable, are the numbers and names considered reliable by editors here? I can't find any detasils on the site about editorial control or names of contributors and so on, is there a real need to keep an unverified day by day alleged total from this external link? Are there figures being reported anywhere more reliable sourcy. Off2riorob ( talk) 11:46, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Well, lets see if other editors comment, as I see at present I am for removing the figures unless a more reliable source can be found. I also think the figures may be correct but we should imo not include them on that basis, should we? So I am for removal and you seem to be also..if there are not a rush of reasons why we should keep them in at this time I will remove them in a couple of hours. (unless there are objections) Off2riorob ( talk) 17:24, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Well its not a blp and if we got consensus that the site was reliable figures then perhaps it could be used,, but not really. I left matty a note but he is an intermittent user every few days, I think with your comment and mine I will remove them removed. I also would like to see the figures reported in a reliable citation. Off2riorob ( talk) 17:29, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Here in the Daily Mirror Kevin Maguire says ex Labour mp says "Ex-Labour MP Sion Simon has launched a new site, labour-uncut, and is covering the leadership race." .. but the figures are not reported, so at least we know rthe source of the figures is a notable person. Off2riorob ( talk) 18:20, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
User talk:Nightstallion has recently added this YouGov poll result from the Sunday times/ times, what is notable or especially reportable about that? http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article7134066.ece As I know we don't bother publishing individual poll results, any comments? Off2riorob ( talk) 18:34, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Removed. Off2riorob ( talk) 20:25, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Quality valuable content is the more the merrier. Your addition did not quite reflect the citation comments and the other issue is that polls are these days 10 a penny and without also commenting as the actual questions asked and such like reporting some simple figures from a larger poll is a misrepresentation. Off2riorob ( talk) 20:52, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Aren't we just using a tittle-tattle, blogger near-insider source here? Unless there is a published, reliable source I think we are risking accuracy for the sake of trying to keep up with developments. Leaky Caldron 20:26, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
From the bbc cite...the Labour Party said they would update the figures twice a day on their website until nominations close on 9 June. Anyone got a link? Off2riorob ( talk) 20:41, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
we should add these figures from here Rrius Off2riorob ( talk) 20:43, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
I tried to bring this up before, but we never really got anywhere. LeakyCauldron has already deleted a list of supporters at
Andy Burnham, so i It is only a matter of time before someone adds a list here. The names are available at Labour's website, so we have a perfect source. I know from the discussion above that Rob thinks the names aren't encyclopedic, but I disagree. Who supported whom in the election is of value in telling the story. However, I think it would take up to much space, and the encyclopedic value is outweighed by the tendency to clutter. What do others think? -
Rrius (
talk)
21:09, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Becoming, as I was, irritated with the daily need to calculate stuff, here's a lookup table instead:
1: 0.39% 2: 0.78% 3: 1.17% 4: 1.56% 5: 1.95% 6: 2.33% 7: 2.72% 8: 3.11% 9: 3.50% 10: 3.89% 11: 4.28% 12: 4.67% 13: 5.06% 14: 5.45% 15: 5.84% 16: 6.23% 17: 6.61% 18: 7.00% 19: 7.39% 20: 7.78% 21: 8.17% 22: 8.56% 23: 8.95% 24: 9.34% 25: 9.73% 26: 10.12% 27: 10.51% 28: 10.89% 29: 11.28% 30: 11.67% 31: 12.06% 32: 12.45% 33: 12.84% 34: 13.23% 35: 13.62% 36: 14.01% 37: 14.40% 38: 14.79% 39: 15.18% 40: 15.56% 41: 15.95% 42: 16.34% 43: 16.73% 44: 17.12% 45: 17.51% 46: 17.90% 47: 18.29% 48: 18.68% 49: 19.07% 50: 19.46% 51: 19.84% 52: 20.23% 53: 20.62% 54: 21.01% 55: 21.40% 56: 21.79% 57: 22.18% 58: 22.57% 59: 22.96% 60: 23.35% 61: 23.74% 62: 24.12% 63: 24.51% 64: 24.90% 65: 25.29% 66: 25.68% 67: 26.07% 68: 26.46% 69: 26.85% 70: 27.24% 71: 27.63% 72: 28.02% 73: 28.40% 74: 28.79% 75: 29.18% 76: 29.57% 77: 29.96% 78: 30.35% 79: 30.74% 80: 31.13% 81: 31.52% 82: 31.91% 83: 32.30% 84: 32.68% 85: 33.07% 86: 33.46% 87: 33.85% 88: 34.24% 89: 34.63% 90: 35.02% 91: 35.41% 92: 35.80% 93: 36.19% 94: 36.58% 95: 36.96% 96: 37.35% 97: 37.74% 98: 38.13% 99: 38.52% 100: 38.91%
Evercat ( talk) 16:51, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
I am not good with picture boxes, but is it possible to get them all in a line, this imo would look a bit tidier. Off2riorob ( talk) 10:43, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
6 would be a bit wide, but we can do 3x2... Evercat ( talk) 10:55, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
Yes, I prefer that, thanks Evercat. Off2riorob ( talk) 11:19, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
there are a few comments being added to these people
Noteworthy MPs who declined to stand as to who they are claimed to be now supporting, it seems unclear as to where that is cited to? Off2riorob ( talk) 14:55, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
I have cited the claim about harman supporting abbott. Off2riorob ( talk) 15:01, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Harman is NOT supporting Abbott, she is remaining neutral, but nominating Abbott because she wants a woman on the ballot paper, as supported by the article cited here.-- Andrewginger ( talk) 12:34, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
Just wonderind whether we should change Labour Party leadership election, 2010 from a redirect to this page to a disambiguation page given there has now been a leadership election in Australia's Labor Party. I know the two parties are spelled differently, but I can imagine people will want to search for the Australian election and a disambig page would give them easier access to it and avoid possible confusion. Any thoughts? TheRetroGuy ( talk) 11:04, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
Done There's now also a redirect to the page from Labor Party leadership election, 2010. Cheers TheRetroGuy ( talk) 14:17, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Where is the quote from Cooper that she supports Balls I can't see it here http://www2.labour.org.uk/leadership-Ed-Balls, could you please point me to it, bit blindness sometimes, and I have had a good look on her blogs and I can't find statements that support she is supporting Balls. Off2riorob ( talk) 11:39, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
User:Rrius has also replaced this which has been uncited for a while and tagged? Jack Straw[21] – nominated Diane Abbott,[citation needed] former Justice Secretary and Lord Chancellor, previously Foreign and Home Secretary
Nominated it says. Off2riorob ( talk) 11:44, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
IMO the two cases are worthy of differentiation, if someone simply voted for a candidate then voted for would be a fair representation and if someone has actively canvassed and and made speeches in support of a candidate then supported would be a fair representation of such actions. Also have you got a citation that supports the content that Straw nominated Abbott as presently that is uncited. I would have preferred it if you had cited it before you inserted it Off2riorob ( talk) 12:01, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
You have just added this to support that Cooper has actively supported Balls but I don't see anything in there that says that? Off2riorob ( talk) 12:24, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
I see you have been blocked for warring at another artcle, perhaps you do need to step back a bit,it was hard talking to you here as well. I see you have reverted again to your POV position, I will discuss with later when you are unblocked I will start a discussion about it to get some other opinions, Cooper has done nothing to support Balls apart from sign his nomination papers, so as Darling has actively suppored by the waty of speeches and so on it is needed to show a difference between those types of support. Please come back in a more discussing frame of mind. Regards. Off2riorob ( talk) 13:15, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
Just wondering if this section is really necessary. Certainly Peter Mandelson's name has been mentioned as a possible future leader from time to time (though I con't remember whether it was during this leadership election), but James Purnell? His article says he decided to leave frontline politics so why would he want to be Labour leader? Besides which this section is entirely unreferenced. Any thoughts? TheRetroGuy ( talk) 18:29, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
As this section has been re-added again for the umpteenth time I have tried to rewrite it a bit. The last user to re-add it points out that Non MPs are included in the 1997 Tory leadership election so I've rewritten it along the lines of what is said in that article. Whether it should stay though is a different matter. Cheers TheRetroGuy ( talk) 18:24, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Does anyone have a full list of debates/hustings that could be added? Rutld001 ( talk) 21:11, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Thursday 26 April for the Question Time debate? Shouldn't that be a September date? TheRetroGuy ( talk) 18:36, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
Is an infobox necessary? It seems to me that for elections using AV it's impossible for it to be comprehensive: either we have numbers from different rounds for different candidates, which is pretty confusing; or only include the first round, which in this case falsely suggests a David Miliband victory. I think the format used in Labour Party (UK) deputy leadership election, 2007 is clearer. – Hysteria18 ( Talk • Contributions) 18:33, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
While it is helpful to mention people who were mentioned as candidates but declined to stand, putting in a 10 good-sized images takes up far more space than is necessary for people who were never actually participants in the election. Doing so therefore violates WP:UNDUE. Just because it is possible to add images of people doesn't make it necessary, or even desirable. - Rrius ( talk) 08:32, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
I have left the following notice on the talk page of everyone who has participated on this talk page other than the two of us and two editors who have been indefinitely banned ( User:MickMacNee and User:Youreallycan, who edited here as Off2riorob): "I am contacting you because you have participated in prior discussions at the above article, and it would be appreciated if you gave your views on an current dispute. One editor wants to add a gallery of images for people who declined to stand for the leadership. Another editor objects on the grounds that doing so puts undue weight on the people who did not participate." I think you will agree that this is an even-handed account of the dispute. - Rrius ( talk) 14:29, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
Leaky Caldron 14:31, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
I could live with or without the images, but the arguments against including them seem to carry more weight, yeah. — Nightstallion 15:30, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
I think there would be a case for the inclusion of an image on a case-by-case basis if the person's non-candidacy was important enough to be developed in detail in the article (I talk in generalities) but not otherwise. Grandiose ( me, talk, contribs) 15:48, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
The edit warring was getting ridiculous; I've protected the page for 3 days. Feel free to request unprotection if a suitable compromise is reached before that time. Some of the comments here are getting rather personal too. Can everyone please focus on the content and the merit of the arguments rather than throwing snide comments at each other? Chamal T• C 14:52, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
I would like to begin by apologising for the edit warring but I would like to put my point across. I do feel that Rrius has tried to move the goalposts, but I will not dwell on certain misdemeanours and rudeness. Non-candidates are essential, and other pages have recognised this through the use of pictures. However, specifically in this case non-candidates changed the dynamic of the whole leadership race. Yvette Cooper, Jon Cruddas and Harriet Harman obviously stand out. The reason why is that almost all of those mentioned had been considering leadership bids, preparing to stand and had they stood things would have been very different - in fact had Jon Cruddas stood as the candidate of the soft left, David Miliband would have been leader. Also, many mentioned have extremely senior figures - Jon Cruddas is now policy co-ordinator, Alistair Darling is now running the pro-Union campaign and very likely to replace Ed Balls, Harriet Harman is deputy leader and Yvette Cooper is seen as a replacement for Ed Miliband in the future. Also, had Purnell and Kelly remained in Parliament it is very possible that they would have also stood in the leadership contest. Therefore, images are needed in order not just to identify these people but give a sense of importance in the role that they played - and by not standing they played huge roles. In fact, some went onto be heavily involved in leadership campaigns themselves. I am sure that is the reason why US Presidential election pages and the 2005 Tory leadership election have pictures for non-candidates - for this very reason. Thank you.-- AngieWattsFan ( talk) 19:05, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
Consensus is clearly against AngieWattsFan, and s/he seems to have ignored the fact that it's irrelevant what other articles do, despite it being said numerous times, and that the claims that it's significant that these people didn't stand aren't backed up by any sources — not to mention that it's undue weight to include pictures for these people. I think it's time to invoke WP:STICK and abandon this discussion. – Richard BB 18:06, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
I agree that the consensus in the section above above is to remove the pictures, and having just looked at the version which did have the pictures, I support their removal. They overwhelm the article, and add little value.
I hope that User:AngieWattsFan will desist from further edit-warring, and improve the civility of her comments. Angie is a fairly new editor, who is clearly passionate about improving Wikipedia ... but she needs to remember that Wikipedia makes decisions by WP:CONSENSUS, and civility is essential to that process. AWF's comments at the head of this section are an interesting piece of political analysis, but fail WP:NOR. Background knowledge of a topic is a great asset in any editor, but Wikipedia only uses material from reliable sources.
It would be good to see an expansion of the section on those who didn't stand ... but it should expanded with text, not with pictures, and it should be referenced to reliable sources. Would AngieWattsFan would like to do that? -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 12:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Why are we including Ruth Kelly as a noteworthy MP who declined to stand? She did not contest the 2010 general election so did not have a seat at the time of the leadership contest. Paul MacDermott ( talk) 13:14, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
So we have:
If there has not been any defence of why Kelly and Milburn should remain by Sunday, I'll go ahead and remove them (unless someone wants to go ahead and do it before — I wouldn't complain). — Richard BB 12:38, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
Going to go ahead and remove Kelly — it's been proven time and time again that the source does not support the claim, and AngieWattsFan has not provided any reason why it should stay other than "I know the inner workings of the Labour Party, therefore it must be true", and "it's been there for a few years, so it should stay." I don't need to explain why the first point isn't a reason, and the second point is irrelevant — consensus can change, and the whole point of Wikipedia is that we edit these articles to make them more factually accurate. If it has been here for two years unchallenged, then it was here incorrectly. I will also remove Milburn, given that AWF has admitted it's dubious. I'll leave Clarke unless Rrius wants to go ahead and remove it. — Richard BB 18:19, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
A few additional points I'd like to make to emphasise why I've removed these (again). Firstly, if it were true that Ruth Kelly was planning to stand but didn't, I'm sure there would be more sources out there proving it — not one news article online where the claim is written incredibly ambiguously (of course, the truth is that the article doesn't say that at all; AWF is misreading it). Secondly, AWF still hasn't managed to copy and paste the exact line from the article which supports his/her claim. I can only imagine this is because they know the line does not exist. Thirdly, as I said, just because it has remained there unchallenged for some time it doesn't mean it deserves to stay there. Finally, just because you're a member of the Labour Party, AWF, that does not count as a citation. Please see WP:V — you need to prove the claims that you make, and it has been demonstrated that the article you cited does not (furthermore, you have failed to demonstrate that it does). — Richard BB 18:33, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
I see AWF has now removed the entire paragraph. I think I agree with this decision, given the edit summary s/he provided. I thank them for their agreement; shall we declare this discussion closed? — Richard BB 12:08, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
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Can I add anyone I think might be a candidate? Or shall I wait until they announce their candidacy? No/ All the possible candidates should be removed and as people comment that they will stand then they should be added but not until. Off2riorob ( talk) 19:58, 10 May 2010 (UTC) Off2riorob ( talk) 19:56, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
It has been reported on Sky that the Cabinet have agreed that no one will annouunce their intention to stand until after the discussion with the Liberal Democrats is over. Off2riorob ( talk) 20:14, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Breaking news, Cleg says he did not ask Brown to stand down. Off2riorob ( talk) 20:17, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
The list of possible candidates, was started again by an IP. It is valueless speculation. Adding possible names and removing them and adding joke names that some writer somewhere has added, it is just not what we are here to do. Keep any speculated names out of the article, there will be actual names in the next few days. Off2riorob ( talk) 14:34, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
I do not like this word 'triggering', even though it now has a cite for having been used in the media. Has an official process been initiated yet or not? Because that is what the word 'triggering' means to my mind. If not, then all that has happened is that he has said he will go, and an official process of a leadership election will begin at some point in the future. MickMacNee ( talk) 22:22, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Put very simply, how has a formal process begun, if there are no candidates, no election date, and (presumably), no formal resignation letter or date, of the incumbent? All we have, is an announcement it is to occur, at some vague point in the future. If that means 'triggerred', then so be it. It doesn't ring true with me. MickMacNee ( talk) 23:39, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Given that this election will be unlike the 2007 election, I don't think it provides much of a guide on how to handle publicly declared Commons PLP supporters of each candidate. Theoretically, we could have 257 names listed either as candidates or supporters (assuming Brown really does stay in and really does stay out of the election). With Alan Johnson supporting David Miliband, it is only a matter of time before this becomes an issue, so I thought I'd bring it up now. If we do list them, do we also want to list Lords PLP supporters? - Rrius ( talk) 08:04, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Why should the frontrunner undeclared candidates (Miliband jnr, Balls, Cruddas) not be mentioned? They are the primary focus of the coverage in reliable sources, and this article is very deficient without their inclusion. 86.41.61.203 ( talk) 23:08, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
The background section should explain, at minimum, why there was a leadership election (i.e. results of the election from a Labour point of view), why Brown's resignation unfolded as it did (negotiations with Lib Dems), the debate about an immediate election vs one in September. All this can be done in a paragraph, so I am very surprised at the reversions. Unless there are sound objections, I will resume building this section to give the topic its proper context. 86.41.61.203 ( talk) 23:10, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
Almost al the content in the ede is being duplicated in the backgroulnd section , the lede and the background need merging to a simple section. Off2riorob ( talk) 00:01, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
John_McDonnell_(politician) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
This guy has been added as a candidate, the citation does not support the claim? Off2riorob ( talk) 20:56, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
Is this a joke? Why are you edit warring this rubbish? Off2riorob ( talk) 21:56, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
“ | A third MP, John McDonnell, a veteran leftwinger, also announced his intention to stand, while Ed Balls, the former education secretary, is expected to declare his candidacy this week. | ” |
There is nothing to comfirm that this person is a candidate at all. there is no press coverage at all, he is not a candidate at all, are there supporting reports? Adding press stories and commentary is not what we are here to do, The sun thought we should say this and the telegraph wanted us to say this and the express said this. Off2riorob ( talk) 22:23, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
You are adding false content about living people. This living person has not nominated himself, you have a single claim that is not supported, and you are warring to keep its valuelessness in the article. what for? Off2riorob ( talk) 22:41, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
The blp Of this person that is claimed to be a candidate John_McDonnell_(politician) has no edits at all at his article, why is that? if he is a candidate then why are there no reports? There are no reports at all in the press and in the media. Your adding your citation and warring the content when it is clear that there are no reports about this claim/ Off2riorob ( talk) 22:45, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
The point is, just because a newspaper said something is happening, doesn't mean it is actually happening. Has John McDonnell announed he intends to stand? No. Has he said he is considering standing?. No. Does this Times article even source the claim? No. And finally, the million-vote question, will McDonnell's name be on the ballot paper? Quite possibly not. 82.38.97.148 ( talk) 19:02, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
I have removed this as it is worthless speculation, according to the press. In addition, the Times is reporting that Ed Balls will announce his candidacy during the week of 16 May; that John McDonnell intends to announce he is standing; and that John Cruddas and Andy Burnham, the former Health Secretary, are considering joining the race. [3] Off2riorob ( talk) 23:11, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
I am fuzzy, but I appreciate you removing your inserted falsehood from the article. Off2riorob ( talk) 23:25, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
Are you joking? Mcdonnel has not announced, well he is not being reported in the press as having announced. but him back if you insist but it is not being reported. It looks false to me. John_McDonnell_(politician) Off2riorob ( talk) 23:47, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
There is nothing encyclopedic or long term about the claims of the press that jonny is a potential candidate, the whole comment requires removing and not renaming. Worthless speculation would be as good a header. Removal is the correct thing to do. Off2riorob ( talk) 19:31, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
We have it in the article that Cruddas is a 'potential candidate . according to the times, tonight he is reported on national news to have rejected any intention to stand, we should correct this, it was only added yesterday and we should simply remove the whole press speculation or we will only have to add that the times said it thought that Crudas was going to stand but then Crusddas didn't stand, as I said its valueless and non encyclopedic content and only twenty four hours later is citable as incorrect. Off2riorob ( talk) 22:15, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
I have not abandoned anything. As I have said here I feel bad to re-comment, I have posted my points and case, I won't continue to repeat, time has so far shouted in my support. Actually the only notable thing is that there are so few announcements. Off2riorob ( talk) 23:18, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Declined what? Off2riorob ( talk) 23:02, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Senior Labour figures including Jack Straw, Alan Johnson, Peter Hain and Yvette Cooper have ruled themselves out... cited to this article in the times online http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article7128845.ece, there is no attribution at all no comment that, we have spoken to these people and they have said this..... The issue for me is, well they never ruled themselves in did they? no, its press speculation, this was never going to happen but the times said that it had not happened. Really? Off2riorob ( talk) 23:07, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Why do we not have a picture of John McDonnell in the candidates section? We have Balls, Burnham and the Miliband Brothers. so McDonnell should be there as well. Will anyone object if I add one with some detail and a reference? TheRetroGuy ( talk) 18:29, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
IMO it seems excessive to have two pictures of the same people in a small article, all the pictures have been duplicated in the infobox, it it just me and my browser that thinks it is valueless duplication? Off2riorob ( talk) 18:49, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
I have a suggestion. How about, for now, we get rid of the images and candidate information in the infobox and rely on the gallery? If, after the 27th, there are 6 or fewer candidates who have gotten their 33 signatures, then we could add those people to the infobox, and leave the images of anyone who does not in a section for candidates who failed to get on the ballot. I think that would also mean removing the candidate information from the infobox for the time being. - Rrius ( talk) 07:46, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
http://labour-uncut.co.uk/category/inside This link does not look wikipedia reliable, are the numbers and names considered reliable by editors here? I can't find any detasils on the site about editorial control or names of contributors and so on, is there a real need to keep an unverified day by day alleged total from this external link? Are there figures being reported anywhere more reliable sourcy. Off2riorob ( talk) 11:46, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Well, lets see if other editors comment, as I see at present I am for removing the figures unless a more reliable source can be found. I also think the figures may be correct but we should imo not include them on that basis, should we? So I am for removal and you seem to be also..if there are not a rush of reasons why we should keep them in at this time I will remove them in a couple of hours. (unless there are objections) Off2riorob ( talk) 17:24, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Well its not a blp and if we got consensus that the site was reliable figures then perhaps it could be used,, but not really. I left matty a note but he is an intermittent user every few days, I think with your comment and mine I will remove them removed. I also would like to see the figures reported in a reliable citation. Off2riorob ( talk) 17:29, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Here in the Daily Mirror Kevin Maguire says ex Labour mp says "Ex-Labour MP Sion Simon has launched a new site, labour-uncut, and is covering the leadership race." .. but the figures are not reported, so at least we know rthe source of the figures is a notable person. Off2riorob ( talk) 18:20, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
User talk:Nightstallion has recently added this YouGov poll result from the Sunday times/ times, what is notable or especially reportable about that? http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article7134066.ece As I know we don't bother publishing individual poll results, any comments? Off2riorob ( talk) 18:34, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Removed. Off2riorob ( talk) 20:25, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Quality valuable content is the more the merrier. Your addition did not quite reflect the citation comments and the other issue is that polls are these days 10 a penny and without also commenting as the actual questions asked and such like reporting some simple figures from a larger poll is a misrepresentation. Off2riorob ( talk) 20:52, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Aren't we just using a tittle-tattle, blogger near-insider source here? Unless there is a published, reliable source I think we are risking accuracy for the sake of trying to keep up with developments. Leaky Caldron 20:26, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
From the bbc cite...the Labour Party said they would update the figures twice a day on their website until nominations close on 9 June. Anyone got a link? Off2riorob ( talk) 20:41, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
we should add these figures from here Rrius Off2riorob ( talk) 20:43, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
I tried to bring this up before, but we never really got anywhere. LeakyCauldron has already deleted a list of supporters at
Andy Burnham, so i It is only a matter of time before someone adds a list here. The names are available at Labour's website, so we have a perfect source. I know from the discussion above that Rob thinks the names aren't encyclopedic, but I disagree. Who supported whom in the election is of value in telling the story. However, I think it would take up to much space, and the encyclopedic value is outweighed by the tendency to clutter. What do others think? -
Rrius (
talk)
21:09, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Becoming, as I was, irritated with the daily need to calculate stuff, here's a lookup table instead:
1: 0.39% 2: 0.78% 3: 1.17% 4: 1.56% 5: 1.95% 6: 2.33% 7: 2.72% 8: 3.11% 9: 3.50% 10: 3.89% 11: 4.28% 12: 4.67% 13: 5.06% 14: 5.45% 15: 5.84% 16: 6.23% 17: 6.61% 18: 7.00% 19: 7.39% 20: 7.78% 21: 8.17% 22: 8.56% 23: 8.95% 24: 9.34% 25: 9.73% 26: 10.12% 27: 10.51% 28: 10.89% 29: 11.28% 30: 11.67% 31: 12.06% 32: 12.45% 33: 12.84% 34: 13.23% 35: 13.62% 36: 14.01% 37: 14.40% 38: 14.79% 39: 15.18% 40: 15.56% 41: 15.95% 42: 16.34% 43: 16.73% 44: 17.12% 45: 17.51% 46: 17.90% 47: 18.29% 48: 18.68% 49: 19.07% 50: 19.46% 51: 19.84% 52: 20.23% 53: 20.62% 54: 21.01% 55: 21.40% 56: 21.79% 57: 22.18% 58: 22.57% 59: 22.96% 60: 23.35% 61: 23.74% 62: 24.12% 63: 24.51% 64: 24.90% 65: 25.29% 66: 25.68% 67: 26.07% 68: 26.46% 69: 26.85% 70: 27.24% 71: 27.63% 72: 28.02% 73: 28.40% 74: 28.79% 75: 29.18% 76: 29.57% 77: 29.96% 78: 30.35% 79: 30.74% 80: 31.13% 81: 31.52% 82: 31.91% 83: 32.30% 84: 32.68% 85: 33.07% 86: 33.46% 87: 33.85% 88: 34.24% 89: 34.63% 90: 35.02% 91: 35.41% 92: 35.80% 93: 36.19% 94: 36.58% 95: 36.96% 96: 37.35% 97: 37.74% 98: 38.13% 99: 38.52% 100: 38.91%
Evercat ( talk) 16:51, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
I am not good with picture boxes, but is it possible to get them all in a line, this imo would look a bit tidier. Off2riorob ( talk) 10:43, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
6 would be a bit wide, but we can do 3x2... Evercat ( talk) 10:55, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
Yes, I prefer that, thanks Evercat. Off2riorob ( talk) 11:19, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
there are a few comments being added to these people
Noteworthy MPs who declined to stand as to who they are claimed to be now supporting, it seems unclear as to where that is cited to? Off2riorob ( talk) 14:55, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
I have cited the claim about harman supporting abbott. Off2riorob ( talk) 15:01, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Harman is NOT supporting Abbott, she is remaining neutral, but nominating Abbott because she wants a woman on the ballot paper, as supported by the article cited here.-- Andrewginger ( talk) 12:34, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
Just wonderind whether we should change Labour Party leadership election, 2010 from a redirect to this page to a disambiguation page given there has now been a leadership election in Australia's Labor Party. I know the two parties are spelled differently, but I can imagine people will want to search for the Australian election and a disambig page would give them easier access to it and avoid possible confusion. Any thoughts? TheRetroGuy ( talk) 11:04, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
Done There's now also a redirect to the page from Labor Party leadership election, 2010. Cheers TheRetroGuy ( talk) 14:17, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Where is the quote from Cooper that she supports Balls I can't see it here http://www2.labour.org.uk/leadership-Ed-Balls, could you please point me to it, bit blindness sometimes, and I have had a good look on her blogs and I can't find statements that support she is supporting Balls. Off2riorob ( talk) 11:39, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
User:Rrius has also replaced this which has been uncited for a while and tagged? Jack Straw[21] – nominated Diane Abbott,[citation needed] former Justice Secretary and Lord Chancellor, previously Foreign and Home Secretary
Nominated it says. Off2riorob ( talk) 11:44, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
IMO the two cases are worthy of differentiation, if someone simply voted for a candidate then voted for would be a fair representation and if someone has actively canvassed and and made speeches in support of a candidate then supported would be a fair representation of such actions. Also have you got a citation that supports the content that Straw nominated Abbott as presently that is uncited. I would have preferred it if you had cited it before you inserted it Off2riorob ( talk) 12:01, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
You have just added this to support that Cooper has actively supported Balls but I don't see anything in there that says that? Off2riorob ( talk) 12:24, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
I see you have been blocked for warring at another artcle, perhaps you do need to step back a bit,it was hard talking to you here as well. I see you have reverted again to your POV position, I will discuss with later when you are unblocked I will start a discussion about it to get some other opinions, Cooper has done nothing to support Balls apart from sign his nomination papers, so as Darling has actively suppored by the waty of speeches and so on it is needed to show a difference between those types of support. Please come back in a more discussing frame of mind. Regards. Off2riorob ( talk) 13:15, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
Just wondering if this section is really necessary. Certainly Peter Mandelson's name has been mentioned as a possible future leader from time to time (though I con't remember whether it was during this leadership election), but James Purnell? His article says he decided to leave frontline politics so why would he want to be Labour leader? Besides which this section is entirely unreferenced. Any thoughts? TheRetroGuy ( talk) 18:29, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
As this section has been re-added again for the umpteenth time I have tried to rewrite it a bit. The last user to re-add it points out that Non MPs are included in the 1997 Tory leadership election so I've rewritten it along the lines of what is said in that article. Whether it should stay though is a different matter. Cheers TheRetroGuy ( talk) 18:24, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Does anyone have a full list of debates/hustings that could be added? Rutld001 ( talk) 21:11, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Thursday 26 April for the Question Time debate? Shouldn't that be a September date? TheRetroGuy ( talk) 18:36, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
Is an infobox necessary? It seems to me that for elections using AV it's impossible for it to be comprehensive: either we have numbers from different rounds for different candidates, which is pretty confusing; or only include the first round, which in this case falsely suggests a David Miliband victory. I think the format used in Labour Party (UK) deputy leadership election, 2007 is clearer. – Hysteria18 ( Talk • Contributions) 18:33, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
While it is helpful to mention people who were mentioned as candidates but declined to stand, putting in a 10 good-sized images takes up far more space than is necessary for people who were never actually participants in the election. Doing so therefore violates WP:UNDUE. Just because it is possible to add images of people doesn't make it necessary, or even desirable. - Rrius ( talk) 08:32, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
I have left the following notice on the talk page of everyone who has participated on this talk page other than the two of us and two editors who have been indefinitely banned ( User:MickMacNee and User:Youreallycan, who edited here as Off2riorob): "I am contacting you because you have participated in prior discussions at the above article, and it would be appreciated if you gave your views on an current dispute. One editor wants to add a gallery of images for people who declined to stand for the leadership. Another editor objects on the grounds that doing so puts undue weight on the people who did not participate." I think you will agree that this is an even-handed account of the dispute. - Rrius ( talk) 14:29, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
Leaky Caldron 14:31, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
I could live with or without the images, but the arguments against including them seem to carry more weight, yeah. — Nightstallion 15:30, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
I think there would be a case for the inclusion of an image on a case-by-case basis if the person's non-candidacy was important enough to be developed in detail in the article (I talk in generalities) but not otherwise. Grandiose ( me, talk, contribs) 15:48, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
The edit warring was getting ridiculous; I've protected the page for 3 days. Feel free to request unprotection if a suitable compromise is reached before that time. Some of the comments here are getting rather personal too. Can everyone please focus on the content and the merit of the arguments rather than throwing snide comments at each other? Chamal T• C 14:52, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
I would like to begin by apologising for the edit warring but I would like to put my point across. I do feel that Rrius has tried to move the goalposts, but I will not dwell on certain misdemeanours and rudeness. Non-candidates are essential, and other pages have recognised this through the use of pictures. However, specifically in this case non-candidates changed the dynamic of the whole leadership race. Yvette Cooper, Jon Cruddas and Harriet Harman obviously stand out. The reason why is that almost all of those mentioned had been considering leadership bids, preparing to stand and had they stood things would have been very different - in fact had Jon Cruddas stood as the candidate of the soft left, David Miliband would have been leader. Also, many mentioned have extremely senior figures - Jon Cruddas is now policy co-ordinator, Alistair Darling is now running the pro-Union campaign and very likely to replace Ed Balls, Harriet Harman is deputy leader and Yvette Cooper is seen as a replacement for Ed Miliband in the future. Also, had Purnell and Kelly remained in Parliament it is very possible that they would have also stood in the leadership contest. Therefore, images are needed in order not just to identify these people but give a sense of importance in the role that they played - and by not standing they played huge roles. In fact, some went onto be heavily involved in leadership campaigns themselves. I am sure that is the reason why US Presidential election pages and the 2005 Tory leadership election have pictures for non-candidates - for this very reason. Thank you.-- AngieWattsFan ( talk) 19:05, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
Consensus is clearly against AngieWattsFan, and s/he seems to have ignored the fact that it's irrelevant what other articles do, despite it being said numerous times, and that the claims that it's significant that these people didn't stand aren't backed up by any sources — not to mention that it's undue weight to include pictures for these people. I think it's time to invoke WP:STICK and abandon this discussion. – Richard BB 18:06, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
I agree that the consensus in the section above above is to remove the pictures, and having just looked at the version which did have the pictures, I support their removal. They overwhelm the article, and add little value.
I hope that User:AngieWattsFan will desist from further edit-warring, and improve the civility of her comments. Angie is a fairly new editor, who is clearly passionate about improving Wikipedia ... but she needs to remember that Wikipedia makes decisions by WP:CONSENSUS, and civility is essential to that process. AWF's comments at the head of this section are an interesting piece of political analysis, but fail WP:NOR. Background knowledge of a topic is a great asset in any editor, but Wikipedia only uses material from reliable sources.
It would be good to see an expansion of the section on those who didn't stand ... but it should expanded with text, not with pictures, and it should be referenced to reliable sources. Would AngieWattsFan would like to do that? -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 12:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Why are we including Ruth Kelly as a noteworthy MP who declined to stand? She did not contest the 2010 general election so did not have a seat at the time of the leadership contest. Paul MacDermott ( talk) 13:14, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
So we have:
If there has not been any defence of why Kelly and Milburn should remain by Sunday, I'll go ahead and remove them (unless someone wants to go ahead and do it before — I wouldn't complain). — Richard BB 12:38, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
Going to go ahead and remove Kelly — it's been proven time and time again that the source does not support the claim, and AngieWattsFan has not provided any reason why it should stay other than "I know the inner workings of the Labour Party, therefore it must be true", and "it's been there for a few years, so it should stay." I don't need to explain why the first point isn't a reason, and the second point is irrelevant — consensus can change, and the whole point of Wikipedia is that we edit these articles to make them more factually accurate. If it has been here for two years unchallenged, then it was here incorrectly. I will also remove Milburn, given that AWF has admitted it's dubious. I'll leave Clarke unless Rrius wants to go ahead and remove it. — Richard BB 18:19, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
A few additional points I'd like to make to emphasise why I've removed these (again). Firstly, if it were true that Ruth Kelly was planning to stand but didn't, I'm sure there would be more sources out there proving it — not one news article online where the claim is written incredibly ambiguously (of course, the truth is that the article doesn't say that at all; AWF is misreading it). Secondly, AWF still hasn't managed to copy and paste the exact line from the article which supports his/her claim. I can only imagine this is because they know the line does not exist. Thirdly, as I said, just because it has remained there unchallenged for some time it doesn't mean it deserves to stay there. Finally, just because you're a member of the Labour Party, AWF, that does not count as a citation. Please see WP:V — you need to prove the claims that you make, and it has been demonstrated that the article you cited does not (furthermore, you have failed to demonstrate that it does). — Richard BB 18:33, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
I see AWF has now removed the entire paragraph. I think I agree with this decision, given the edit summary s/he provided. I thank them for their agreement; shall we declare this discussion closed? — Richard BB 12:08, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
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