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There isn't any confirmed information (beyond there being a shooting) at this moment (4:30 PM CST) and we are already putting up vague details? I would delete this whole article til we have more facts but eventually the details will sort themselves out I guess. Second, I think it's sick to race to put up in article in Wikipedia before the bodies are even cold during these kinds of tragedies. There isn't any pressing need to be there first nor is it critical to get what amounts to speculation on record as quickly as possible. The news medias have turned that into a fine art already and people can watch CNN for the very best in conjecture.
There is a total lack of respect and human decency in Wikipedia in relation to being the first to rumor monger during tragedy for the sake of a freakin' Wiki article and this "article" in particular really demonstrates that. == KeeperOTD ( talk) 22:34, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
The 4Chan comment felt like a sickening plug. --Johnny —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.211.90.191 ( talk) 22:37, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Because there aren't any confirmed details and it's pretty cold blooded to be so...I don't even know what the term is, to be in such a hurry to throw this up before parents even know their kid might be dead. There should be restraint and respect before high fiving over the dead and an article with only a handful of facts. And I agree about the 4Chan comment. = KeeperOTD ( talk) 22:42, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, maybe the 4chan comment was a bit insensitive, but it should be noted (along with other recent school shootings and similar tragedies) that the internet response was incredibly fast - especially amongst forums and message boards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.32.96 ( talk) 23:11, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I am not going to put this in yet, since I can't cite it on the internet, but he was killed by a self-inflicted gunshot wound, and his name was George something. Missed the last name.-- Kranar drogin ( talk) 23:22, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
It was on the the ABC news station local to me, but they were hushed up real quick. So, it might have been a victim.-- Kranar drogin ( talk) 02:19, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Whoever put that three are dead is wrong, they are only seriously injured, as the given source says. Read the source; get your facts straight. The only death thus far has been the gunman. M173627 ( talk) 23:50, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
You are right, that is a true update. M173627 ( talk) 00:31, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
They haven't given out his name yet, they are holding a News conference now —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.79.203.111 ( talk) 01:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Let's just wait and see what updates will be given in due time. Oh, and for the guy that referred to the other Wikipedians as "retards" a few versions ago of this page, please be civil. Must we have an edit war over this current event? Cluebert 01:43, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Please be specific, everyone has some form of call name whether it be a username or IP Address. No one knows who that "guy" is because no one called anyone a "retard". Are you referring to me? M173627 ( talk) 03:21, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Since this is apparently the only shooting to have occurred at NIU, shouldn't the "2008" be removed? -- Zantolak ( talk) 00:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Done. Scarian Call me Pat 00:36, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Is this including the patient that died (according to the Kishwaukee Community Hospital site)? ~ Ambrosia- talk 02:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
himself, saying five people were killed, not six, in the Northern Illinois University shooting rampage.
AP-NY-02-15-08 1114EST
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8UQRPPG0&show_article=1&catnum=0
According to CNN, it's 6 dead including the shooter. [1] Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
The killer shouldn't be lumped in with the victims. It seems to give his suicide moral equivalence to the people he had just murdered. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.90.15.3 ( talk) 21:43, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I removed this article from the List of massacres but my removal was immediately reverted. Can those who believe this article should be on that list please state their case? Thanks!
Unless additional information is forthcoming, I don't think this event is comparable to the other events on that list. Further, we've established some precedence and consensus by not placing the other "recent" school shootings on that list. -- ElKevbo ( talk) 02:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I've reverted myself. After looking at the other "massacres" in that list, I don't think this really falls into that category. I originally just looked at the death toll, not the original description,... it's quite clear now that that particular link doesn't belong. Dr. Cash ( talk) 02:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
The term "massacre" is somewhat ambiguous to begin with. Dictionary definitions vary greatly on what constitutes a massacre. As there does not appear to be a concrete definition of the word, I think an article's inclusion is inherently subjective. Swamilive ( talk) 03:04, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Same debate as with Virginia Tech. Bottom line: If the media start calling it a "massacre", then wikipedia can do so too. If not, then not. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 03:37, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Sadly, wiki is more credible than FOX. Which is messed however you look at it. And 6 isn't considered a massacre.
-G
Apologies to all regarding my somewhat less than civil edit comments regarding the CBS 2 chicago citation. It's easy to get a bit carried away when things are happening so quickly. But I do want to make the point that we should be mindful of wikipedia's reliable source guidelines when citing information. The most reliable sources we can use are national media sites like MSNBC & CNN, and newspapers; a local television news site, like CBS 2, is going to be less reliable because their journalists are less experienced, pass stories over more quickly, and make more errors. That's why I said they "suck", which I meant in comparison to the big ones like CNN & MSNBC. Even the Chicago Tribune, a newspaper with a very long-standing editorial history and reputation, is more reliable than the junk that the local television reporters feed to us. I removed a reference to a small Florida TV station as well, for similar reasons. Dr. Cash ( talk) 02:48, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh why can't all quarrels in the world be resolved nicely like this?
M173627 (
talk)
05:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Wait a minute. Why are news outlets such as CBS 2 Chicago unreliable? Does Wikipedia intend to generate a list of news sources that are "reliable" and those that are not? How reliable were the national media in reporting the 2000 election results? How reliable was Dan Rather's reporting on George Bush's National Guard documents? Incidentally, the national media relies heavily upon the local news outlets when reporting local news. It's not like they send Britt Hume out to get the scoop every time there is a regional news event. Dan Rather himself came to national prominence as a local reporter during the JFK assassination in Dallas. I would hate to see Wikipedians refusing to accept information from local news stations under a notion that they are incredible--after all, CBS 2 is a "CBS" news outlet. And CBS, CNN, FOX, ABC, and every other national media site is going to pass along anything their local reporters say. Who do you think "confirms" these stories anyway? Confirmation comes from the reporters at the local affiliates. Intreverend ( talk) 06:27, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Could someone plz add to the disscusion page a list of the people who died so we can debate weather it belongs in the article. It does not matter if it gets reveted, I can just scan the edit sumeries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.201.34.215 ( talk) 04:43, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone have any information on whether the university was a gun-free zone? Mookrit ( talk) 09:10, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Also, in fairness to the gun nuts, gun control advocates qualify as "anti-gun nuts". At least according to some comments I've heard from the gun nuts. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 17:29, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not for soapboxing. Please use the article talk page for discussing improvements to the article, not your own personal opinions. Friday (talk) 22:40, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
The issue of a "gun free zone" is relevant to this article, and I'd like to point out some other wikipedia articles to show how to incorporate this issue into this new article.
The Appalachian School of Law shooting and the Pearl Mississippi School shooting were both stopped by law abiding gun owners. In both of these cases, the law abiding gun owners never pulled the triggers on their guns.
Meanwhile, the Luby's massacre in Texas, were 23 people were murdered at a restaurant, took place in a "gun free zone." The law abiding gun owners in that restuarant had left their guns in their cars, because the restaurant was a "gun free zone." This had such an effect that the state of Texas responded by chagning its laws, and making it legal for law abiding gun owners to carry their guns in public places such as the restaurant where this took place.
Likewise, the Virginia Tech massacre, where 32 people were murderd, also took place in a "gun free zone."
All 4 of those articles mention this issue, so it makes perfect sense for this new article to also mention this issue.
In various news sources, critics of the "gun free zone" claim that it's an invitation to criminals and murderers. It's very easy to find sources with their positions for the article.
Defenders of the "gun free zone," well, they prefer not to talk about this issue in newspapers, or anywhere else. So it is very difficult to find sources to use for the article.
I did find one quote, however, for one of those earleir articles. A year before the Virginia Tech massacre took places, Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker bragged about how the school was a gun free zone, and said, "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus." [3] Every time someone adds that quote to the article, someone else erases it. There's a long section on that article's talk page about this issue. Given that the quote is well sourced, and given that the quote is from a public official, it's very relevant to the article. But some people want to censor the truth.
Anyway, my point here is that this new article should definitley talk about how the school in Illinois was a "gun free zone," and we can follow those other articles as role models.
Grundle2600 ( talk) 05:28, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Settling the issue: I submit to the editors that if this shooting had occurred in one of the few universities that allow students with permits to carry concealed handguns on campus, it would absolutely be reported in the media that said university had a policy that allowed guns. I have no doubt this media coverage would be reflected in the subsequent Wikipedia article(s). Now, if you all claim to be fair editors, you must apply the same standards in differing situations. If you would be willing to include "university X allowed guns to extent Y," then you must be willing to include, "university A disallowed guns." If you can't or won't do this, then you are a biased editor; and it appears that we have a large number of biased editors involving themselves in this article. 68.83.210.47 ( talk) 01:05, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
No, it is not "settled". It is not possible to know what "would have happened" or "would happen" in other circumstances; and because no one currently knows what was in this guy's head, it is also not possible to predict what he would or would not have done; so those speculative arguments do not work for forcing this subject's inclusion into this article. As someone said earlier, if someone like WSJ starts talking about it, thus providing a citation of some serious media discussion, that could be a different story.
Baseball Bugs
What's up, Doc? 01:18, 17 February 2008 (UTC) Post moved by
68.83.210.47 (
talk)
01:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Here is a source that can be used for the article. Illinois state law requires that anyone who is transporting a gun keep it unloaded and in a storage container. Therefore, concealed carry is illegal in the entire state, and that includes Northern Illinois University.
My post in this section which is dated "05:28, 16 February 2008" explains in great detail why the issue of "gun free zone" is relevant to this article. I cited several other wikipedia articles as examples of how to properly incorporate the concept into this current article. Grundle2600 ( talk) 22:02, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
The article currently uses the word "smuggled" to describe the way in which the firearms were brought onto campus. "Smuggled," by definition, indicates that guns were brought onto campus in violation of campus policy and/or the law. The inclusion of this information is grounds for elaboration on the campus/state policy. Since some form of policy or law is already indicated by the article, you Baseball Bugs, must now argue that elaboration on the facts already presented in the article is somehow not worthy of inclusion. Feel free to argue against the expansion of agreed upon facts in an encyclopedia, but I consider this issue settled. -- Heckler & Koch Talk 08:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
This section is getting so long, I thought I'd create a subsection with a few examples of how to write a proper wikipedia article.
Here are 4 examples of other articles. You can use these examples as guidelines for this article.
Appalachian School of Law shooting
According to Bridges, at the first sound of gunfire, he and fellow student Mikael Gross, unbeknownst to each other, ran to their vehicles to fetch their personal owned firearms....
Bridges and Gross approached Odighizuwa from different angles, with Bridges yelling at Odighizuwa to drop his gun. Odighizuwa then dropped his firearm
He went on to wound 7 others before Joel Myrick, the assistant principal, retrieved a .45 pistol from the glove compartment of his truck and subdued Woodham
In 2006, prior to the shootings, legislator Todd Gilbert had introduced a related bill into the Virginia House of Delegates. The bill, HB 1572 was intended to forbid public universities in Virginia from preventing students from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun on campus. The university opposed the bill, which died in subcommittee in January 2006. Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker praised the defeat of the bill, and stated, "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."
On October 16, 1991, Hennard drove his 1987 Ford Ranger pickup truck through the front window of a Luby's Cafeteria at 1705 East Central Texas Expressway in Killeen, yelled "This is what Bell County has done to me!", then opened fire on the restaurant's patrons and staff with a Glock 17 pistol and later a Ruger P89.
About 80 people were in the restaurant at the time. He stalked, shot, and killed 23 people and wounded another 20 before committing suicide.
During the shooting, he approached Suzanna Gratia Hupp and her parents. Hupp had actually brought a handgun to the Luby's Cafeteria that day, but had left it in her vehicle due to the laws in force at the time, forbidding citizens from carrying firearms.
According to her later testimony in favor of Missouri's HB-1720 bill and in general, after she realized that her firearm was not in her purse, but "a hundred feet away in [her] car", her father charged at Hennard in an attempt to subdue him, only to be gunned down; a short time later, her mother was also shot and killed. (Hupp later expressed regret for abiding by the law in question by leaving her firearm in her car, rather than keeping it on her person.)
Reacting to the massacre, in 1995 the Texas Legislature passed a shall-issue gun law allowing Texas citizens with the required permit to carry concealed weapons. The law was sponsored by State Rep. Suzanna Gratia Hupp, R-Lampasas, who was present at the Luby's massacre and both of whose parents were shot and killed. The 1995 Texas law, signed by then-Governor George W. Bush, became part of a broad movement to allow U.S. citizens to easily obtain permits to carry concealed weapons.
Grundle2600 ( talk) 04:37, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
May I ask for some clarification regarding the use of the term "gun-free zone" in this discussion? Is it related to the Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990? I'm not sure how that act relates to NIU or any college and university, since it mentions elementary and secondary schools (high schools). Is the term "gun-free zone" being used colloquially in this discussion if it's meant to refer to the entirety of Illinois? I may be wrong, but it's my understanding that a "gun-free zone" generally means guns are strictly forbidden in both cases of guns being concealed carry or locked and unloaded in a case. I don't mean to nit-pick but if we want to include the "gun-free zone" status of NIU in terms of law, then we need to be specific. Jason P Crowell ( talk) 09:26, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
The name of the shooter was officially release. It was Steven Kazmierczak. 164.58.180.210 ( talk) 15:09, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
let people without a long, glowing history of vandalism make edits. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.39.2.83 ( talk) 15:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Not entirely related, but here's his written request from 2004 to become a member of the university's chapter of the American Correctional Association, where he became the treasurer. — BRIAN 0918 • 2008-02-15 19:37Z
shouldn't this article be on the main page, and the varioius news portals? 132.205.44.5 ( talk) 15:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I believe it should be. There was a news portal of the shooting @ that school in Germany not long ago... -[Rayne] 15:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.208.93.60 ( talk)
I'm watching the press conference and they just spelled his name for the press - they spelled it "Stephen". That gets zero g-hits, but is it possible that everyone has been assuming up until now? -- B ( talk) 16:02, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
it's steven with a v, per UIUC website. 12.39.2.83 ( talk) 16:16, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
SOMEONE NEEDS TO DELETE THE LINK TO U of I's WEBSITE. THEY HAVE DELETED STEVEN FROM THEIR REGISTRY AND YOU CAN NO LONGER SEARCH FOR HIM. HE WAS LISTED THIS MORNING, SO THEY MUST HAVE JUST REMOVED IT.
USAToday spells it "Stephen". That doesn't mean it's correct. "Steve" obviously is the abbreviation for both "Steven" and "Stephen". [5] Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:50, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
With the apparent current lack of proof of the spelling, maybe the article should simply point out the discrepancy, until the news media get their facts straight. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 17:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
From a chched version of NIU's Sociology page: Steven Kazmierczak. My search term was (minus the parentheses),( "Steven Kazmierczak" -shooter sociology ). ( "Stephen Kazmierczak" -shooter sociology ) returned zero results. Without going into too much detail, I have been able to read a number of private communications from sociology students and faculty from various schools and these emails, from people who knew him and worked with him, all refer to him either as Steve or Steven, never Stephen. 128.186.153.249 ( talk) 18:19, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
so basically everyone knows it is spelled 'steven', but no one will change it? 12.39.2.83 ( talk) 18:45, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I was just at the press conference at NIU, got quite a few photos, walked by Cole Hall and got some pictures too. If anyone thinks they are useful I can add them to Commons and place them in the article when I get a chance. 69.137.246.61 ( talk) 17:12, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Would it be appropriate and within Fair Use to post an excerpt of a campus map of NIU? I have an image from the catalog of the middle of campus that I could upload. I altered it by highlighting the building number in red. I hope that doesn't come across as morbid. Jason P Crowell ( talk) 19:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
The news conference stated that the previous incident was not related. The press release from December 10, 2007 states that the threat was not believed to be credible. http://www.niu.edu/PubAffairs/RELEASES/2007/dec/campus_alert.shtml I can't find the other alerts from that day, but I had an appointment on campus and recall that the main reason stated by NIU for closing the university that day was an ice storm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jason P Crowell ( talk • contribs) 17:56, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
There isn't any confirmed information (beyond there being a shooting) at this moment (4:30 PM CST) and we are already putting up vague details? I would delete this whole article til we have more facts but eventually the details will sort themselves out I guess. Second, I think it's sick to race to put up in article in Wikipedia before the bodies are even cold during these kinds of tragedies. There isn't any pressing need to be there first nor is it critical to get what amounts to speculation on record as quickly as possible. The news medias have turned that into a fine art already and people can watch CNN for the very best in conjecture.
There is a total lack of respect and human decency in Wikipedia in relation to being the first to rumor monger during tragedy for the sake of a freakin' Wiki article and this "article" in particular really demonstrates that. == KeeperOTD ( talk) 22:34, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
The 4Chan comment felt like a sickening plug. --Johnny —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.211.90.191 ( talk) 22:37, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Because there aren't any confirmed details and it's pretty cold blooded to be so...I don't even know what the term is, to be in such a hurry to throw this up before parents even know their kid might be dead. There should be restraint and respect before high fiving over the dead and an article with only a handful of facts. And I agree about the 4Chan comment. = KeeperOTD ( talk) 22:42, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, maybe the 4chan comment was a bit insensitive, but it should be noted (along with other recent school shootings and similar tragedies) that the internet response was incredibly fast - especially amongst forums and message boards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.32.96 ( talk) 23:11, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I am not going to put this in yet, since I can't cite it on the internet, but he was killed by a self-inflicted gunshot wound, and his name was George something. Missed the last name.-- Kranar drogin ( talk) 23:22, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
It was on the the ABC news station local to me, but they were hushed up real quick. So, it might have been a victim.-- Kranar drogin ( talk) 02:19, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Whoever put that three are dead is wrong, they are only seriously injured, as the given source says. Read the source; get your facts straight. The only death thus far has been the gunman. M173627 ( talk) 23:50, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
You are right, that is a true update. M173627 ( talk) 00:31, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
They haven't given out his name yet, they are holding a News conference now —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.79.203.111 ( talk) 01:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Let's just wait and see what updates will be given in due time. Oh, and for the guy that referred to the other Wikipedians as "retards" a few versions ago of this page, please be civil. Must we have an edit war over this current event? Cluebert 01:43, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Please be specific, everyone has some form of call name whether it be a username or IP Address. No one knows who that "guy" is because no one called anyone a "retard". Are you referring to me? M173627 ( talk) 03:21, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Since this is apparently the only shooting to have occurred at NIU, shouldn't the "2008" be removed? -- Zantolak ( talk) 00:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Done. Scarian Call me Pat 00:36, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Is this including the patient that died (according to the Kishwaukee Community Hospital site)? ~ Ambrosia- talk 02:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
himself, saying five people were killed, not six, in the Northern Illinois University shooting rampage.
AP-NY-02-15-08 1114EST
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8UQRPPG0&show_article=1&catnum=0
According to CNN, it's 6 dead including the shooter. [1] Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
The killer shouldn't be lumped in with the victims. It seems to give his suicide moral equivalence to the people he had just murdered. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.90.15.3 ( talk) 21:43, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I removed this article from the List of massacres but my removal was immediately reverted. Can those who believe this article should be on that list please state their case? Thanks!
Unless additional information is forthcoming, I don't think this event is comparable to the other events on that list. Further, we've established some precedence and consensus by not placing the other "recent" school shootings on that list. -- ElKevbo ( talk) 02:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I've reverted myself. After looking at the other "massacres" in that list, I don't think this really falls into that category. I originally just looked at the death toll, not the original description,... it's quite clear now that that particular link doesn't belong. Dr. Cash ( talk) 02:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
The term "massacre" is somewhat ambiguous to begin with. Dictionary definitions vary greatly on what constitutes a massacre. As there does not appear to be a concrete definition of the word, I think an article's inclusion is inherently subjective. Swamilive ( talk) 03:04, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Same debate as with Virginia Tech. Bottom line: If the media start calling it a "massacre", then wikipedia can do so too. If not, then not. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 03:37, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Sadly, wiki is more credible than FOX. Which is messed however you look at it. And 6 isn't considered a massacre.
-G
Apologies to all regarding my somewhat less than civil edit comments regarding the CBS 2 chicago citation. It's easy to get a bit carried away when things are happening so quickly. But I do want to make the point that we should be mindful of wikipedia's reliable source guidelines when citing information. The most reliable sources we can use are national media sites like MSNBC & CNN, and newspapers; a local television news site, like CBS 2, is going to be less reliable because their journalists are less experienced, pass stories over more quickly, and make more errors. That's why I said they "suck", which I meant in comparison to the big ones like CNN & MSNBC. Even the Chicago Tribune, a newspaper with a very long-standing editorial history and reputation, is more reliable than the junk that the local television reporters feed to us. I removed a reference to a small Florida TV station as well, for similar reasons. Dr. Cash ( talk) 02:48, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh why can't all quarrels in the world be resolved nicely like this?
M173627 (
talk)
05:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Wait a minute. Why are news outlets such as CBS 2 Chicago unreliable? Does Wikipedia intend to generate a list of news sources that are "reliable" and those that are not? How reliable were the national media in reporting the 2000 election results? How reliable was Dan Rather's reporting on George Bush's National Guard documents? Incidentally, the national media relies heavily upon the local news outlets when reporting local news. It's not like they send Britt Hume out to get the scoop every time there is a regional news event. Dan Rather himself came to national prominence as a local reporter during the JFK assassination in Dallas. I would hate to see Wikipedians refusing to accept information from local news stations under a notion that they are incredible--after all, CBS 2 is a "CBS" news outlet. And CBS, CNN, FOX, ABC, and every other national media site is going to pass along anything their local reporters say. Who do you think "confirms" these stories anyway? Confirmation comes from the reporters at the local affiliates. Intreverend ( talk) 06:27, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Could someone plz add to the disscusion page a list of the people who died so we can debate weather it belongs in the article. It does not matter if it gets reveted, I can just scan the edit sumeries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.201.34.215 ( talk) 04:43, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone have any information on whether the university was a gun-free zone? Mookrit ( talk) 09:10, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Also, in fairness to the gun nuts, gun control advocates qualify as "anti-gun nuts". At least according to some comments I've heard from the gun nuts. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 17:29, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not for soapboxing. Please use the article talk page for discussing improvements to the article, not your own personal opinions. Friday (talk) 22:40, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
The issue of a "gun free zone" is relevant to this article, and I'd like to point out some other wikipedia articles to show how to incorporate this issue into this new article.
The Appalachian School of Law shooting and the Pearl Mississippi School shooting were both stopped by law abiding gun owners. In both of these cases, the law abiding gun owners never pulled the triggers on their guns.
Meanwhile, the Luby's massacre in Texas, were 23 people were murdered at a restaurant, took place in a "gun free zone." The law abiding gun owners in that restuarant had left their guns in their cars, because the restaurant was a "gun free zone." This had such an effect that the state of Texas responded by chagning its laws, and making it legal for law abiding gun owners to carry their guns in public places such as the restaurant where this took place.
Likewise, the Virginia Tech massacre, where 32 people were murderd, also took place in a "gun free zone."
All 4 of those articles mention this issue, so it makes perfect sense for this new article to also mention this issue.
In various news sources, critics of the "gun free zone" claim that it's an invitation to criminals and murderers. It's very easy to find sources with their positions for the article.
Defenders of the "gun free zone," well, they prefer not to talk about this issue in newspapers, or anywhere else. So it is very difficult to find sources to use for the article.
I did find one quote, however, for one of those earleir articles. A year before the Virginia Tech massacre took places, Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker bragged about how the school was a gun free zone, and said, "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus." [3] Every time someone adds that quote to the article, someone else erases it. There's a long section on that article's talk page about this issue. Given that the quote is well sourced, and given that the quote is from a public official, it's very relevant to the article. But some people want to censor the truth.
Anyway, my point here is that this new article should definitley talk about how the school in Illinois was a "gun free zone," and we can follow those other articles as role models.
Grundle2600 ( talk) 05:28, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Settling the issue: I submit to the editors that if this shooting had occurred in one of the few universities that allow students with permits to carry concealed handguns on campus, it would absolutely be reported in the media that said university had a policy that allowed guns. I have no doubt this media coverage would be reflected in the subsequent Wikipedia article(s). Now, if you all claim to be fair editors, you must apply the same standards in differing situations. If you would be willing to include "university X allowed guns to extent Y," then you must be willing to include, "university A disallowed guns." If you can't or won't do this, then you are a biased editor; and it appears that we have a large number of biased editors involving themselves in this article. 68.83.210.47 ( talk) 01:05, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
No, it is not "settled". It is not possible to know what "would have happened" or "would happen" in other circumstances; and because no one currently knows what was in this guy's head, it is also not possible to predict what he would or would not have done; so those speculative arguments do not work for forcing this subject's inclusion into this article. As someone said earlier, if someone like WSJ starts talking about it, thus providing a citation of some serious media discussion, that could be a different story.
Baseball Bugs
What's up, Doc? 01:18, 17 February 2008 (UTC) Post moved by
68.83.210.47 (
talk)
01:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Here is a source that can be used for the article. Illinois state law requires that anyone who is transporting a gun keep it unloaded and in a storage container. Therefore, concealed carry is illegal in the entire state, and that includes Northern Illinois University.
My post in this section which is dated "05:28, 16 February 2008" explains in great detail why the issue of "gun free zone" is relevant to this article. I cited several other wikipedia articles as examples of how to properly incorporate the concept into this current article. Grundle2600 ( talk) 22:02, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
The article currently uses the word "smuggled" to describe the way in which the firearms were brought onto campus. "Smuggled," by definition, indicates that guns were brought onto campus in violation of campus policy and/or the law. The inclusion of this information is grounds for elaboration on the campus/state policy. Since some form of policy or law is already indicated by the article, you Baseball Bugs, must now argue that elaboration on the facts already presented in the article is somehow not worthy of inclusion. Feel free to argue against the expansion of agreed upon facts in an encyclopedia, but I consider this issue settled. -- Heckler & Koch Talk 08:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
This section is getting so long, I thought I'd create a subsection with a few examples of how to write a proper wikipedia article.
Here are 4 examples of other articles. You can use these examples as guidelines for this article.
Appalachian School of Law shooting
According to Bridges, at the first sound of gunfire, he and fellow student Mikael Gross, unbeknownst to each other, ran to their vehicles to fetch their personal owned firearms....
Bridges and Gross approached Odighizuwa from different angles, with Bridges yelling at Odighizuwa to drop his gun. Odighizuwa then dropped his firearm
He went on to wound 7 others before Joel Myrick, the assistant principal, retrieved a .45 pistol from the glove compartment of his truck and subdued Woodham
In 2006, prior to the shootings, legislator Todd Gilbert had introduced a related bill into the Virginia House of Delegates. The bill, HB 1572 was intended to forbid public universities in Virginia from preventing students from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun on campus. The university opposed the bill, which died in subcommittee in January 2006. Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker praised the defeat of the bill, and stated, "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."
On October 16, 1991, Hennard drove his 1987 Ford Ranger pickup truck through the front window of a Luby's Cafeteria at 1705 East Central Texas Expressway in Killeen, yelled "This is what Bell County has done to me!", then opened fire on the restaurant's patrons and staff with a Glock 17 pistol and later a Ruger P89.
About 80 people were in the restaurant at the time. He stalked, shot, and killed 23 people and wounded another 20 before committing suicide.
During the shooting, he approached Suzanna Gratia Hupp and her parents. Hupp had actually brought a handgun to the Luby's Cafeteria that day, but had left it in her vehicle due to the laws in force at the time, forbidding citizens from carrying firearms.
According to her later testimony in favor of Missouri's HB-1720 bill and in general, after she realized that her firearm was not in her purse, but "a hundred feet away in [her] car", her father charged at Hennard in an attempt to subdue him, only to be gunned down; a short time later, her mother was also shot and killed. (Hupp later expressed regret for abiding by the law in question by leaving her firearm in her car, rather than keeping it on her person.)
Reacting to the massacre, in 1995 the Texas Legislature passed a shall-issue gun law allowing Texas citizens with the required permit to carry concealed weapons. The law was sponsored by State Rep. Suzanna Gratia Hupp, R-Lampasas, who was present at the Luby's massacre and both of whose parents were shot and killed. The 1995 Texas law, signed by then-Governor George W. Bush, became part of a broad movement to allow U.S. citizens to easily obtain permits to carry concealed weapons.
Grundle2600 ( talk) 04:37, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
May I ask for some clarification regarding the use of the term "gun-free zone" in this discussion? Is it related to the Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990? I'm not sure how that act relates to NIU or any college and university, since it mentions elementary and secondary schools (high schools). Is the term "gun-free zone" being used colloquially in this discussion if it's meant to refer to the entirety of Illinois? I may be wrong, but it's my understanding that a "gun-free zone" generally means guns are strictly forbidden in both cases of guns being concealed carry or locked and unloaded in a case. I don't mean to nit-pick but if we want to include the "gun-free zone" status of NIU in terms of law, then we need to be specific. Jason P Crowell ( talk) 09:26, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
The name of the shooter was officially release. It was Steven Kazmierczak. 164.58.180.210 ( talk) 15:09, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
let people without a long, glowing history of vandalism make edits. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.39.2.83 ( talk) 15:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Not entirely related, but here's his written request from 2004 to become a member of the university's chapter of the American Correctional Association, where he became the treasurer. — BRIAN 0918 • 2008-02-15 19:37Z
shouldn't this article be on the main page, and the varioius news portals? 132.205.44.5 ( talk) 15:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I believe it should be. There was a news portal of the shooting @ that school in Germany not long ago... -[Rayne] 15:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.208.93.60 ( talk)
I'm watching the press conference and they just spelled his name for the press - they spelled it "Stephen". That gets zero g-hits, but is it possible that everyone has been assuming up until now? -- B ( talk) 16:02, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
it's steven with a v, per UIUC website. 12.39.2.83 ( talk) 16:16, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
SOMEONE NEEDS TO DELETE THE LINK TO U of I's WEBSITE. THEY HAVE DELETED STEVEN FROM THEIR REGISTRY AND YOU CAN NO LONGER SEARCH FOR HIM. HE WAS LISTED THIS MORNING, SO THEY MUST HAVE JUST REMOVED IT.
USAToday spells it "Stephen". That doesn't mean it's correct. "Steve" obviously is the abbreviation for both "Steven" and "Stephen". [5] Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:50, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
With the apparent current lack of proof of the spelling, maybe the article should simply point out the discrepancy, until the news media get their facts straight. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 17:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
From a chched version of NIU's Sociology page: Steven Kazmierczak. My search term was (minus the parentheses),( "Steven Kazmierczak" -shooter sociology ). ( "Stephen Kazmierczak" -shooter sociology ) returned zero results. Without going into too much detail, I have been able to read a number of private communications from sociology students and faculty from various schools and these emails, from people who knew him and worked with him, all refer to him either as Steve or Steven, never Stephen. 128.186.153.249 ( talk) 18:19, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
so basically everyone knows it is spelled 'steven', but no one will change it? 12.39.2.83 ( talk) 18:45, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I was just at the press conference at NIU, got quite a few photos, walked by Cole Hall and got some pictures too. If anyone thinks they are useful I can add them to Commons and place them in the article when I get a chance. 69.137.246.61 ( talk) 17:12, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Would it be appropriate and within Fair Use to post an excerpt of a campus map of NIU? I have an image from the catalog of the middle of campus that I could upload. I altered it by highlighting the building number in red. I hope that doesn't come across as morbid. Jason P Crowell ( talk) 19:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
The news conference stated that the previous incident was not related. The press release from December 10, 2007 states that the threat was not believed to be credible. http://www.niu.edu/PubAffairs/RELEASES/2007/dec/campus_alert.shtml I can't find the other alerts from that day, but I had an appointment on campus and recall that the main reason stated by NIU for closing the university that day was an ice storm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jason P Crowell ( talk • contribs) 17:56, 15 February 2008 (UTC)