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The text of this article contains the following quote: "The final factor was the 10-knot tailwind that pushed the steeply banked aircraft into the accelerated stall, resulting in the crash." I am not sure where this opinion originated, but it reflects a lack of knowledge in basic aerodynamics. Unless the tailwind manifested itself in the form of windshear, which was not stated in the article, there is no way a tailwind could directly affect the stall of the aircraft. I know from my time spent as a flight instructor that student pilots often get confused on this very point. They some times believe that turning downwind in the landing pattern can cause the aircraft's airspeed to change and bring on a stall. However, this is not the case. Barring windshear, the airspeed of an aircraft in flight is unaffected by the direction that the aircraft is pointing relative to the direction that the wind is blowing across the ground. Only the ground speed is affected. For example, if an aircraft indicates an airspeed of 200 knots and the wind in its area is blowing at 10 knots over the ground, the aircraft will have a ground speed of 210 knots when flying downwind and a ground speed of 190 knots when flying upwind. The important point is that no matter which direction it is flying, it will always have an airspeed of 200 knots. Stall speed is based on airspeed, not ground speed. So changing direction in flight, in and of itself, has no effect on stall speed and will not cause the aircraft to stall. That said, the 10 knot tailwind could have had an indirect effect on this crash. Turning downwind, the aircraft's ground speed would have increased and the pilot may have steepened his turn to avoid overflying a restricted area. The steepened turn could have easily brought on an accelerated stall, stalling at a higher speed than normal, but this is an indirect cause. A tailwind does not cause accelerated stalls!
63.74.232.26 03:07, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
“ | Surface winds were out of the southwest and fairly constant in velocity. Any additional gust may have been sufficient to induce a stall since the MA (mishap aircraft) was near the stall speed. A rapid turn to downwind heading with high bank rates of turn will lead to airspeed bleed off if power is not added to overcome the induced drag and wind vector change. In this case, the 10 knot headwind turned into a 10 knot tailwind in 15 seconds. This rapid change is similar to a decreasing performance windshear. Winds were a factor in this mishap. | ” |
As I understand the issue, as the aircraft turns through 180 degrees and a headwind becomes a tailwind, the groundspeed of the airplane increases because it is now being pushed from behind be the wind, however, the actual airspeed should be the same. 71.159.153.171 ( talk) 02:43, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
We have to be careful not to disregard the basic physics in this connection: In principle it is true, when headwind turns into tailwind, then the air speed should ultimately remain the same. But only ultimately. Because changing speed means acceleration. According to Newton's laws: F=am, where F is the force applied, m the mass of the object and a the acceleration. F is here the force applied by the wind, m the mass of the airplane. According to the report, the headwind turned into a tailwind within 15 seconds. When this happens, the airspeed will drop instantly, remain lower temporarily, and then the aircraft will accelerate again to finally return to the previous airspeed. However, for an object as massive as the B 52, this acceleration takes some time, time that was not available. Therefore, in this case, the sudden tailwind could very well have aggravated the stall. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dram4 ( talk • contribs) 08:13, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
The mishap report is correct as far as the wind is concerned. We should keep in mind that the kinetic energy of the aircraft is dependent on its ground speed. If there is wind, as the aircraft turns, it has to accelerate or decelerate in order to maintain its airspeed. In the early days of aviation, aircraft speeds were low and turn rates were high. The reserve power available was also low. Hence, the danger in turning downwind soon after take off. In modern aircraft, it is rarely felt or recognized. But, if the aircraft is already close to stall and in a tight turn with high power, the effect becomes significant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.241.141.18 ( talk) 13:11, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
I realize that this is an FA article, so I want to be careful how I proceed on this, but I would like to suggest that this article be renamed to conform to the general naming conventions being promoted by the Wikipedia:WikiProject Aviation/Aviation accident task force. The new name would be 1994 Fairchild Air Force Base B-52 crash. This would put the article in line with other military aviation crash articles, as well. Thoughts? AKRadecki Speaketh 17:35, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Done. AKRadecki Speaketh 00:48, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
I watched this aircraft crash and later participated in the clean-up. I was part of the 92ND maintenance squadron and was working in a warehouse (TMO?) near the entrance to the flightline. We were packing B-52 bomb pylons into crates to prepare for shipment to other units because the bomber unit was being decommisioned. We heard the B-52 flying by and had to step outside to watch it. It blasted down the flightline and then banked sharply and turned and came back. It was amazing. I lost sight of it as it moved behind a hangar and then I heard a dull thud. Soon my heart sank as I saw an immense plume of black smoke. Immediately the place went nuts, civilian and military car rushed out to the flightline. I'll never forget this day. BWSK former USAF—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.119.205.51 ( talk • contribs) {{{2}}}.
I was also there. I was in the 92nd OMS. I remember the crash. I remember everyone thought the pilot was a hero because he "put it down" in the only open field available. And that stuff about the KC-135 landing was BS. They had been doing those low fly bys for over a week. Someone "up the chain of command" wanted both planes visable after passing low and turning opposite each other. It was practice for a Air Show that was coming up. By tighting up their formation, when the KC banked left it caused a "dead" spot of air. When the B-52 banked hard right, it encountered the dead air. Sitting on the flightline in my bread truck,(call sign red 5) with the other 10 or so guys, we all saw the engines flame out 1,2,3 and then it nosed in to miss the BX where all the families were filming the show. Why do you think there was so many people filming it? Because it was the last day to practice. It was the dress rehersel. If the Air Force needs to blame someone they need to look further up the chain of command. Also how was there time for the AC (aircraft commander)to recieve the "go around" radio back and ask to perform a dangerous manuver right around the tower, recieve permission, realize he was crashing and then attempt to eject? Thats not how it happened, or when for that matter. The dates wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Riolovin ( talk • contribs) 05:29, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Maybe I can help clarify something with regards to Riolovin's eyewitness report. There was a previous incident at Fairchild AFB in 1987 that involved a B-52 crashing as a result of turbulence from a KC-135. As per Riolovin's account, the aircraft was practicing for an airshow and crashed in an open field in front of the BX. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.106.146.10 ( talk) 05:39, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
This sentence:
Holland was the chief of the 92nd Bomb Wing's Standardization and Evaluation branch, McGeehan was the commander of the 325th Bomb Squadron, Wolff was the vice commander of the 92nd Bomb Wing, and Huston was the 325th Bomb Squadron's operations officer.
Could confuse readers without a basic understanding of AF unit structure, so i created a basic flow chart to help with any misunderstanding. Anynobody 07:13, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Thank you - I see this as a good help to this effort. You got it mostly. right. It's Lt Col Ken Huston, though, and Lt Col Mark McGeehan. I knew them both.14:41, 13 September 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.38.6.105 ( talk)
Question to everyone: If the pilot flying flies the plane and the pilot not flying runs the radios, how is it that on the first two passes with the tanker that day McGeehan is heard on the radio as Holland flew and just before the crash Holland assumes the radios? This would indicate McGeehan was flying the plane in the steep closed pattern where it stalled. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Load Of Poop ( talk • contribs) 11:34, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
wow, the low notability of the topic, surprises me that one would take the time to make it a featured article. -- Leladax 11:39, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Since when did this page become a smear campaign about Holland? I understand talking about the investigation, but it seems to me that someone is doing everything possible to point fingers, including an itinerary attacking Holland.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.107.125.248 ( talk • contribs) {{{2}}}.
In the article it states Bud Holland was killed when the craft crashed in 1993 but later under a picture it states he flew it over a low ridgeline in 1994. Why is this?
The second paragraph of the 'Other factors' section says "Pellerin, however, was unavailable for the flight on June 24 and Wolff was selected as the replacement aircrewmember. Due to the short notice of his assignment to the mission, Wolff did not participate in the pre-flight briefing and boarded the aircraft after the engines were started. Thus, Wolff was not aware of the planned mission profile and did not have an opportunity to raise any objections before take-off." But the second paragraph of the 'Crash' section says "The flight was also Wolff's "fini flight"—a common tradition in which a retiring USAF aircrew member is met shortly after landing on his or her final flight at the airfield by relatives, friends, and coworkers, and doused with water. Thus, Wolff's wife and many of his close friends were at the airfield to watch the flight and participate in the post-flight ceremony."
How did his friends and family have time to arrive at a special ceremony for his final flight when he didn't know it was to be his final flight until so soon before takeoff that he didn't even have time to review the flight plan?
Otherwise, indeed, an excellent article. 216.77.231.70 19:17, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
I just wanted to explain an edit I made, the edit summary is too short to really justify it. In this edit I changed some of the measurements in meters slightly. For instance, where it said "2,500 feet (762 m)" I changed it to "2,500 feet (760m)".
Now, 762 m is a more exact equivalent to 2,500 feet, so why did I change it to 760 m? The measurement "2,500 feet" is clearly approximate, to about two digits of precision. Whatever source that measurement came from, I doubt they actually meant "2,500 feet, and not a foot more or a foot less." More likely, it was a few feet different from that (and either they rounded it off, or their own source of information was inexact).
Saying "762 m", though, implies a value a lot more precise. One very close to 2,500 feet -- closer even than the original statement "2,500 feet" was supposed to imply. That's why I changed it to the less precise "760 m".
I didn't do this for values in other sections; those values seem to have matching precision in their metric and non-metric forms.
Kudos to Skybunny for adding these translations in the first place. -- Why Not A Duck 22:00, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Several photographs in this article are labeled "This photo was taken on a U.S. military reservation which makes the photo property of the U.S. government and thereby public domain, even if the photo was taken by a private citizen." This sounds, um, totally made-up to me. Is there any source for this theory?-- Pharos 22:01, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Can we see it? Brutannica 02:06, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Beautiful article! It's odd, though, that there is no picture of Holland's while those of some of the other crew members is. Still, beautiful article! 210.7.132.72 16:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
I wonder, did Holland ever attempt to roll a B-52, like the famous roll of the 707 prototype? I had wondered when I first saw the video of this crash years ago whether he was attempting a roll (although it's clear when you think about it that it's just an overly steep banked turn, as described). A2Kafir 18:39, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Did this particular plane have ejection seats? I thought the later models were equipped with ejection seats in at least some of the crew positions. User:jacobst 22:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
...because, if there were, the transcript of this crash would probably be public by now. A2Kafir 21:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
An image used in the article ( File:FairchildB52Crash.jpg) has been proposed for deletion on commons. See Commons:Deletion requests/File:FairchildB52Crash.jpg -- rogerd 14:48, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
The animation of the accelerated stall that has just been added is very nice, but unfortunately it's conceptually wrong.
It seems to suggest that the stall speed varies depending on the
sideslip angle of the aircraft, whereas the two things are unrelated.
A
stall is the reduction of lift caused by the
Angle of Attack of the wing exceeding the critical value for that wing, and the AoA depends on the aircraft pitch, not yaw.
Now, if you want to keep flying and you are already at the critical AoA, you'll have to maintain at least a certain speed (the stall speed), otherwise there's no way you can get enough lift to keep you airborne (not considering flaps). If the weight of the aircraft increases, so does the stall speed (since more lift is needed) and the same is true if the aircraft is manoeuvring (e.g. turning), since the effects of acceleration are substantially identical to a change in weight. A 2g coordinated turn is essentially the same as flying straight and level in a world where gravity is double the Earth's one; in both cases the stall speed will be = 1.4 times the normal stall speed achievable while flying straight and level in this world. That's what accelerated stall refers to: a stall that occurs at a speed higher than normal due to the effect of the aircraft's acceleration.
The animation, misleading as it is, is bound to be removed. It would be good to see it re-drawn correctly, because the graphics is nice. I'm happy to give some hints on how it could possibly look like.
Giuliopp 22:39, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
:Essentially it's taking the wing in this illustration and turning it 90 degrees.
Anynobody 04:19, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
I think we should be careful not to mix-up stall with sideslip. A sideslip is not a type of stall. Stall is about Angle of Attack, and therefore pitch. Sideslip is about sideslip angle, and thus yaw. In the article about stall, yaw is hardly ever mentioned, and only as an aggravating factor for a stall (potentially resulting in a spin), not as a cause.
It is true that, in a sideslip, the air doesn't flow "properly" around the aircraft, but the main effect of that is the sharp increase in drag (due to the fuselage and fin going sideways), rather than a reduction of lift (which can occur, but not as dramatically as when during a stall). I've never heard of the term 'stall' referred to these sideslip-related effects (if you have, please quote the source), whereas I've always seen it associated with excessive pitch/AoA.
As for the picture above and the wing to be turned 90° to allegedly obtain "essentially the same problem", if I got what rotation you mean, I'm afraid that behind that assertion there is some confusion between Angle of Attack and sweepback angle of a wing. If you take the fully extended wing of an F-14 and pitch it upwards to an AoA of say 50° (i.e. well into the stall region), the resulting airflow and forces are completely different from the same wing at 0° AoA and swept back by 50° (which is a normal setting for a Tomcat).
The current animation shows purely a variation of sideslip angle, which bears some analogy with a wing being gradually swept back, but it has nothing to do with angle of attack nor stall. A meaningful animation could show for example something like this:
Assuming the turn is co-ordinated (that is purple arrow always at right angle to the wings) and the airspeed constant, then the diagram shows what happens when the turn radius decreases (= tightening the turn). More lift is needed to keep the trajectory, which can only be achieved by increasing the AoA (speed is constant and flaps are not considered here). At some point the turn will be so tight that the critical AoA is exceeded and the aircraft stalls. Note that it does so without dropping its speed, which implies that the stall speed Vs has increased while the turn radius was decreasing.
If you can take this sketch and turn it into a nice 3D animation of a B-52, adding the useful speed scale as in the present animation, I think that would definitely be a valuable contribution to the article.
Giuliopp 21:06, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree on that definition, which is a very generic and introductory definition of stall. I also agree on the sentence that, in the WP article about
stall, follows the quoted one: "This [reduction in lift] most usually occurs when the critical angle of attack for the airfoil is exceeded", which is what I have been trying to explain and what most likely happened at Fairchild AFB.
Giuliopp 13:18, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
What you say about the sideslip angle increasing etc. makes some sense but, excuse me if I'm blunt, what has it got to do with accelerated stall and the Fairchild crash? From the video you can tell that the fatal 360° turn was for most of it quite coordinated (= no sideslip), then it became too tight (= critical AoA exceeded → accelerated stall), and then the B-52 went down, uncontrollably, with a visible sideslip attitude. I won't go on any further on this thread because I would end up repeating the same things I've already explained.
That animation needs a fix. I suppose I'll have to do it (I can, in 2D, when I have a minute) then you can perfect it with the 3D model, deal? - Giuliopp out.
Giuliopp 00:27, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
As you no doubt are aware, stalls are complicated. The idea of my original diagram was to show that a stall can occur without a large increase in nose up attitude AND at speeds above the aircraft's normal stall speed. Whereas this one appears to be trying to explain every concept related to a stall. Of course weight and angle of attack need to be part of any complete definition, but we're not discussing stalls in general, we're discussing this crash. This crash had less to do with weight distribution than it did interrupted airflow (lift) due to maneuvering. If we were discussing the COD crash at around 00:20 of this video, weight would be a factor to emphasize. Anynobody 03:45, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Um, "a stall can occur without a large increase in nose up attitude;" this comes from the real world. Pilots are taught that a "stall" is when a wing stops flying, pure and simple. This can occur for many reasons related to bank angle, speed, attitude, etc. But to claim that "a large increase in nose up attitude" is REQUIRED for a stall, as your first point implies, simply isn't true. During straight and level flight, simply pull back your throttle and try to maintain that level attitude. It WILL require more back-stick pressure, but you don't need to increase the AoA; you WILL stall. I've done it. But you don't need to be a pilot to understand it (Full disclosure: I've only logged about 20 hours of flight-training, but this is how we were TAUGHT to stall, for recovery practice). Holland was obviously not in an extreme "nose up attitude," but he still stalled. Also, regarding the animation, a minor point: the green arrow would actually represent the lift REQUIRED to maintain flight, not the lift actually present (notably in this case). Proper pilot response is needed to keep the lift "in the green," so to speak. Quite simply, a wing at a right-angle to gravity will provide virtually NO vertical lift component. That was Czar 52's fatal mistake. I don't mean to lecture either. :) Your post is otherwise VERY informative. Cheers.
Jororo05 (
talk) 21:16, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
I would be interested to know the actual flight path of the plane, and its relation to the reported weapon storage facility (WSF). I haven't been able to find this information anywhere, but here is a satellite image from Mapquest [image deleted due to improper copyright] with my notes about locations of landmarks from a video of the crash (runway, control tower, water towers and buildings). Also indicated is my best guess at the location of the WSF (the fenced area south of the runway). Does anyone have a reference which would give some of this information? Boardhead ( talk) 17:01, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
As far as I know, there isn't a reliable source that shows the exact flight path of the aircraft. If you watch the video of the crash sequence, you can more or less guess the flight path from above, and then draw a line on this photo and place it in the article, as long as the copyright status is clear, which right now it isn't. Cla68 ( talk) 01:05, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
If people think an image and/or description of the flight path would be useful, we should find a way to add this to the main article. Boardhead ( talk) 18:43, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I am confused by two examples of a similar sentence construction in the article, one stating, "The accident investigation concluded that the chain of events leading to the crash was primarily attributable to Holland's personality and behavior, USAF leaders' delayed reactions to the event, and the sequence of events during the mishap flight of the aircraft," and the other very similarly stating, "The accident investigation concluded that the chain of events leading to the crash was primarily attributable to Holland's personality and behavior, USAF leaders' slow reaction to the accident, and the sequence of events during the final flight of the aircraft." The phrases in bold seem to be attributing the accident itself in part to things that happened after the accident (which would be impossible; an effect cannot precede a cause). The text of the article, though, shows that the USAF leaders' reaction was to repeated violations of flight safety rules as evidenced by both direct observation by those leaders and by reports from crew members who flew with Holland. It would seem that the more accurate phrase to use would be something like, "USAF leaders' slow response to the evidence and reports of that behavior" or something to that effect.
I tend to be cautious when editing a Wikipedia article with such a substantial possible error, so I am posting this here in the talk page in hopes that possibly the original author or an editor with some experience can examine the issue. 170.141.56.4 ( talk) 21:26, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
The mention of a flight plan that included bank angles of 60 degrees contradicts the statement in the section "Holland's Behavior." There the article says he had been cited for bank angles of more than 45 degrees. Those high bank angles exceeded the design limits of the airplane.
I didn't find a mention that crews had refused to fly with him. Did I miss that?
L K Tucker 69.1.46.40 ( talk) 22:48, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Looking at the view history for this article at Wikipedia article traffic statistics, I noticed that there was a huge spike in views of this article around Feb 3 and 4. Anyone know why so many people came to look at this article that particular day? Cla68 ( talk) 08:14, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
The article fails to explain Bud Hollands background. How did a personality like him end up in a mud-mover B-52, rather than a fighter plane? This kind of aerobatic attitude is more commonly found and tolerated in fighter jocks. 91.83.18.103 ( talk) 20:09, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQa4PpIkOZU&NR=1
Just thought you guys should know...
Cernex ( talk) 23:39, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm a former member of the 325th Bomb Squadron, and flew with Holland, McGeehan, and Huston several times, and was there during the accident. While I can't mention specifics, I commend the authors of this article, as it's one of the best, most concise reports on the accident I've yet seen.
The last comment in the Conclusion section, however, is in error. It mentions: "The final factor was the 10-knot (19 km/h) tailwind that pushed the steeply banked aircraft into the accelerated stall, resulting in the crash."
The idea of tailwinds pushing aircraft into stalls disappeared in World War I, and can most commonly be found among top ten lists of "don'ts," which includes not hedgehopping and not turning downwind. Ostensibly, the latter can lead to a stall. This is a myth. Turning underpowered, WWI aircraft at any altitude can lead to a stall, as drag is proportional to wing loading, and wing loading during a turn is significantly higher than in straight and level flight. For the underpowered WWI aircraft, it was often sufficient to overcome the full thrust available from the engine, and at low altitude, with no altitude left to recover, often resulted in a stall. It was the turning that stalled the aircraft in WWI, not turning downwind.
While I admire Diehl's other points, this one just isn't so.
Finally, an airplane in flight moves along with the mass of air through which it's flying. It does not matter if it's a tailwind or headwind, or 10 kts or 50 kts. The effect of an airplane moving through a moving mass of air is the same as if the air mass wasn't moving at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.177.20.134 ( talk) 00:15, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Myth removed from article.
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Is it worth mentioning that Meg Holland, Lt. Col Holland's daughter, has become a massive posthumous advocate/apologist for Holland? She's a truly driven individual, and has posted literally thousands of times in various Internet fora arguing that he was "completely innocent" and "the victim of a political witch-hunt". She curses people who condemn him, demands his "name be cleared", issues dire pronouncements/quasi-legal threats about "people who slander the dead" and has, according to several USAF sources, attempted to use Lt.Col Holland's not insubstantial remaining human assets (i.e- friends) in the USAF to "ruin the careers" (not my quote) of several active duty USAF officers and pilots who have spoken out against him, particularly those on the incident investigation board. I've witnessed one of these, and read reports of many others.
I'm actually fairly shocked to not find her name here on the talk page, as she has basically dedicated years of her life to canvassing internet forums dedicated to USAF accidents, air crashes, or piloting in general. The term "driven individual" is a kindness; obsessed might be a better term. I'd imagine she's probably editing under either an IP address or a WP:COI username. I can't imagine a fire that burns that hot is likely to give up easily. Vintovka Dragunova ( talk) 21:05, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
At 07:30 local time, the B-52 bomber crew prepared to practice the demonstration flight. And the B-52 took off at 13:58.
Why the mention of the practice run? Did anything significant happen through the rest of the morning? Valetude ( talk) 17:49, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
References
I'm trouble by the use of the word "demanding" in the fourth paragraph. This sentence, "The mission plan for the flight called for a demanding series of low-altitude passes, 60° banked turns, a steep climb, and a touch-and-go landing on Fairchild's Runway 23." is not right. I'm not sure if it comes from the source at the end of the para, I have no way to determine if the words come from that source. If they don't, I suggest changing the wording to, "The mission plan for the flight called for a series of low-altitude passes, 60° banked turns, a steep climb, and a touch-and-go landing on Fairchild's Runway 23. There's nothing demanding about that series of maneuvers. You can't argue the crash showed it was demanding. A private pilot would be expected to be able to fly those maneuvers in his checkride. Admittedly it is a big aircraft and the maneuvers would require more thought and finesse, but anybody with a little experience in a multi-engine aircraft ought to be competent to so this kind of thing. That's my suggestion. I leave it those who care about this change to consider whether to implement it. Best, MF. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.210.115.100 ( talk) 20:20, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
Thanks. In my last sentence I had meant to write that I leave it to those who "care about this page..." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.210.115.100 ( talk) 21:45, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
I've read in other articles that Holland flew a similar "wingover hammerhead" maneuver at at an airshow in 1992 (this article states 1993) which resulted in 100s of rivets failing at the wing root. If this occurred at a 60° bank angle, what is the likelihood that at a sharper 90° bank angle of the wing failing and resulting in a stall? I've heard this discussed before and seen a breakdown of why this could be a feasible explanation to the stall over the potential wind gust idea. Just wondering what your thoughts are. ITz JLAR ( talk) 22:13, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
I am reviewing this article as part of WP:URFA/2020, and I am concerned that this article might not meet the FA criteria anymore. My concerns are outlined before:
Is anyone interested in fixing up this article? If not, should it go to WP:FAR? Z1720 ( talk) 03:37, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
@ Hog Farm: I've been looking at the sources. Can you tell if Kern, Tony T. (1999). Darker Shades of Blue: The Rogue Pilot. McGraw-Hill Professional Publishing. ISBN 0-07-034927-4. in what's now the bibliography the same as Kern, Tony (1995). "Darker Shades of Blue: A Case Study of Failed Leadership". Neil Krey's CRM Developers Forum. Archived from the original on 16 February 2007. Retrieved 1 March 2007. in what's now the external links? Or are these two different works by the same person? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:09, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
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The text of this article contains the following quote: "The final factor was the 10-knot tailwind that pushed the steeply banked aircraft into the accelerated stall, resulting in the crash." I am not sure where this opinion originated, but it reflects a lack of knowledge in basic aerodynamics. Unless the tailwind manifested itself in the form of windshear, which was not stated in the article, there is no way a tailwind could directly affect the stall of the aircraft. I know from my time spent as a flight instructor that student pilots often get confused on this very point. They some times believe that turning downwind in the landing pattern can cause the aircraft's airspeed to change and bring on a stall. However, this is not the case. Barring windshear, the airspeed of an aircraft in flight is unaffected by the direction that the aircraft is pointing relative to the direction that the wind is blowing across the ground. Only the ground speed is affected. For example, if an aircraft indicates an airspeed of 200 knots and the wind in its area is blowing at 10 knots over the ground, the aircraft will have a ground speed of 210 knots when flying downwind and a ground speed of 190 knots when flying upwind. The important point is that no matter which direction it is flying, it will always have an airspeed of 200 knots. Stall speed is based on airspeed, not ground speed. So changing direction in flight, in and of itself, has no effect on stall speed and will not cause the aircraft to stall. That said, the 10 knot tailwind could have had an indirect effect on this crash. Turning downwind, the aircraft's ground speed would have increased and the pilot may have steepened his turn to avoid overflying a restricted area. The steepened turn could have easily brought on an accelerated stall, stalling at a higher speed than normal, but this is an indirect cause. A tailwind does not cause accelerated stalls!
63.74.232.26 03:07, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
“ | Surface winds were out of the southwest and fairly constant in velocity. Any additional gust may have been sufficient to induce a stall since the MA (mishap aircraft) was near the stall speed. A rapid turn to downwind heading with high bank rates of turn will lead to airspeed bleed off if power is not added to overcome the induced drag and wind vector change. In this case, the 10 knot headwind turned into a 10 knot tailwind in 15 seconds. This rapid change is similar to a decreasing performance windshear. Winds were a factor in this mishap. | ” |
As I understand the issue, as the aircraft turns through 180 degrees and a headwind becomes a tailwind, the groundspeed of the airplane increases because it is now being pushed from behind be the wind, however, the actual airspeed should be the same. 71.159.153.171 ( talk) 02:43, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
We have to be careful not to disregard the basic physics in this connection: In principle it is true, when headwind turns into tailwind, then the air speed should ultimately remain the same. But only ultimately. Because changing speed means acceleration. According to Newton's laws: F=am, where F is the force applied, m the mass of the object and a the acceleration. F is here the force applied by the wind, m the mass of the airplane. According to the report, the headwind turned into a tailwind within 15 seconds. When this happens, the airspeed will drop instantly, remain lower temporarily, and then the aircraft will accelerate again to finally return to the previous airspeed. However, for an object as massive as the B 52, this acceleration takes some time, time that was not available. Therefore, in this case, the sudden tailwind could very well have aggravated the stall. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dram4 ( talk • contribs) 08:13, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
The mishap report is correct as far as the wind is concerned. We should keep in mind that the kinetic energy of the aircraft is dependent on its ground speed. If there is wind, as the aircraft turns, it has to accelerate or decelerate in order to maintain its airspeed. In the early days of aviation, aircraft speeds were low and turn rates were high. The reserve power available was also low. Hence, the danger in turning downwind soon after take off. In modern aircraft, it is rarely felt or recognized. But, if the aircraft is already close to stall and in a tight turn with high power, the effect becomes significant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.241.141.18 ( talk) 13:11, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
I realize that this is an FA article, so I want to be careful how I proceed on this, but I would like to suggest that this article be renamed to conform to the general naming conventions being promoted by the Wikipedia:WikiProject Aviation/Aviation accident task force. The new name would be 1994 Fairchild Air Force Base B-52 crash. This would put the article in line with other military aviation crash articles, as well. Thoughts? AKRadecki Speaketh 17:35, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Done. AKRadecki Speaketh 00:48, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
I watched this aircraft crash and later participated in the clean-up. I was part of the 92ND maintenance squadron and was working in a warehouse (TMO?) near the entrance to the flightline. We were packing B-52 bomb pylons into crates to prepare for shipment to other units because the bomber unit was being decommisioned. We heard the B-52 flying by and had to step outside to watch it. It blasted down the flightline and then banked sharply and turned and came back. It was amazing. I lost sight of it as it moved behind a hangar and then I heard a dull thud. Soon my heart sank as I saw an immense plume of black smoke. Immediately the place went nuts, civilian and military car rushed out to the flightline. I'll never forget this day. BWSK former USAF—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.119.205.51 ( talk • contribs) {{{2}}}.
I was also there. I was in the 92nd OMS. I remember the crash. I remember everyone thought the pilot was a hero because he "put it down" in the only open field available. And that stuff about the KC-135 landing was BS. They had been doing those low fly bys for over a week. Someone "up the chain of command" wanted both planes visable after passing low and turning opposite each other. It was practice for a Air Show that was coming up. By tighting up their formation, when the KC banked left it caused a "dead" spot of air. When the B-52 banked hard right, it encountered the dead air. Sitting on the flightline in my bread truck,(call sign red 5) with the other 10 or so guys, we all saw the engines flame out 1,2,3 and then it nosed in to miss the BX where all the families were filming the show. Why do you think there was so many people filming it? Because it was the last day to practice. It was the dress rehersel. If the Air Force needs to blame someone they need to look further up the chain of command. Also how was there time for the AC (aircraft commander)to recieve the "go around" radio back and ask to perform a dangerous manuver right around the tower, recieve permission, realize he was crashing and then attempt to eject? Thats not how it happened, or when for that matter. The dates wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Riolovin ( talk • contribs) 05:29, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Maybe I can help clarify something with regards to Riolovin's eyewitness report. There was a previous incident at Fairchild AFB in 1987 that involved a B-52 crashing as a result of turbulence from a KC-135. As per Riolovin's account, the aircraft was practicing for an airshow and crashed in an open field in front of the BX. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.106.146.10 ( talk) 05:39, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
This sentence:
Holland was the chief of the 92nd Bomb Wing's Standardization and Evaluation branch, McGeehan was the commander of the 325th Bomb Squadron, Wolff was the vice commander of the 92nd Bomb Wing, and Huston was the 325th Bomb Squadron's operations officer.
Could confuse readers without a basic understanding of AF unit structure, so i created a basic flow chart to help with any misunderstanding. Anynobody 07:13, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Thank you - I see this as a good help to this effort. You got it mostly. right. It's Lt Col Ken Huston, though, and Lt Col Mark McGeehan. I knew them both.14:41, 13 September 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.38.6.105 ( talk)
Question to everyone: If the pilot flying flies the plane and the pilot not flying runs the radios, how is it that on the first two passes with the tanker that day McGeehan is heard on the radio as Holland flew and just before the crash Holland assumes the radios? This would indicate McGeehan was flying the plane in the steep closed pattern where it stalled. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Load Of Poop ( talk • contribs) 11:34, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
wow, the low notability of the topic, surprises me that one would take the time to make it a featured article. -- Leladax 11:39, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Since when did this page become a smear campaign about Holland? I understand talking about the investigation, but it seems to me that someone is doing everything possible to point fingers, including an itinerary attacking Holland.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.107.125.248 ( talk • contribs) {{{2}}}.
In the article it states Bud Holland was killed when the craft crashed in 1993 but later under a picture it states he flew it over a low ridgeline in 1994. Why is this?
The second paragraph of the 'Other factors' section says "Pellerin, however, was unavailable for the flight on June 24 and Wolff was selected as the replacement aircrewmember. Due to the short notice of his assignment to the mission, Wolff did not participate in the pre-flight briefing and boarded the aircraft after the engines were started. Thus, Wolff was not aware of the planned mission profile and did not have an opportunity to raise any objections before take-off." But the second paragraph of the 'Crash' section says "The flight was also Wolff's "fini flight"—a common tradition in which a retiring USAF aircrew member is met shortly after landing on his or her final flight at the airfield by relatives, friends, and coworkers, and doused with water. Thus, Wolff's wife and many of his close friends were at the airfield to watch the flight and participate in the post-flight ceremony."
How did his friends and family have time to arrive at a special ceremony for his final flight when he didn't know it was to be his final flight until so soon before takeoff that he didn't even have time to review the flight plan?
Otherwise, indeed, an excellent article. 216.77.231.70 19:17, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
I just wanted to explain an edit I made, the edit summary is too short to really justify it. In this edit I changed some of the measurements in meters slightly. For instance, where it said "2,500 feet (762 m)" I changed it to "2,500 feet (760m)".
Now, 762 m is a more exact equivalent to 2,500 feet, so why did I change it to 760 m? The measurement "2,500 feet" is clearly approximate, to about two digits of precision. Whatever source that measurement came from, I doubt they actually meant "2,500 feet, and not a foot more or a foot less." More likely, it was a few feet different from that (and either they rounded it off, or their own source of information was inexact).
Saying "762 m", though, implies a value a lot more precise. One very close to 2,500 feet -- closer even than the original statement "2,500 feet" was supposed to imply. That's why I changed it to the less precise "760 m".
I didn't do this for values in other sections; those values seem to have matching precision in their metric and non-metric forms.
Kudos to Skybunny for adding these translations in the first place. -- Why Not A Duck 22:00, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Several photographs in this article are labeled "This photo was taken on a U.S. military reservation which makes the photo property of the U.S. government and thereby public domain, even if the photo was taken by a private citizen." This sounds, um, totally made-up to me. Is there any source for this theory?-- Pharos 22:01, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Can we see it? Brutannica 02:06, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Beautiful article! It's odd, though, that there is no picture of Holland's while those of some of the other crew members is. Still, beautiful article! 210.7.132.72 16:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
I wonder, did Holland ever attempt to roll a B-52, like the famous roll of the 707 prototype? I had wondered when I first saw the video of this crash years ago whether he was attempting a roll (although it's clear when you think about it that it's just an overly steep banked turn, as described). A2Kafir 18:39, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Did this particular plane have ejection seats? I thought the later models were equipped with ejection seats in at least some of the crew positions. User:jacobst 22:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
...because, if there were, the transcript of this crash would probably be public by now. A2Kafir 21:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
An image used in the article ( File:FairchildB52Crash.jpg) has been proposed for deletion on commons. See Commons:Deletion requests/File:FairchildB52Crash.jpg -- rogerd 14:48, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
The animation of the accelerated stall that has just been added is very nice, but unfortunately it's conceptually wrong.
It seems to suggest that the stall speed varies depending on the
sideslip angle of the aircraft, whereas the two things are unrelated.
A
stall is the reduction of lift caused by the
Angle of Attack of the wing exceeding the critical value for that wing, and the AoA depends on the aircraft pitch, not yaw.
Now, if you want to keep flying and you are already at the critical AoA, you'll have to maintain at least a certain speed (the stall speed), otherwise there's no way you can get enough lift to keep you airborne (not considering flaps). If the weight of the aircraft increases, so does the stall speed (since more lift is needed) and the same is true if the aircraft is manoeuvring (e.g. turning), since the effects of acceleration are substantially identical to a change in weight. A 2g coordinated turn is essentially the same as flying straight and level in a world where gravity is double the Earth's one; in both cases the stall speed will be = 1.4 times the normal stall speed achievable while flying straight and level in this world. That's what accelerated stall refers to: a stall that occurs at a speed higher than normal due to the effect of the aircraft's acceleration.
The animation, misleading as it is, is bound to be removed. It would be good to see it re-drawn correctly, because the graphics is nice. I'm happy to give some hints on how it could possibly look like.
Giuliopp 22:39, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
:Essentially it's taking the wing in this illustration and turning it 90 degrees.
Anynobody 04:19, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
I think we should be careful not to mix-up stall with sideslip. A sideslip is not a type of stall. Stall is about Angle of Attack, and therefore pitch. Sideslip is about sideslip angle, and thus yaw. In the article about stall, yaw is hardly ever mentioned, and only as an aggravating factor for a stall (potentially resulting in a spin), not as a cause.
It is true that, in a sideslip, the air doesn't flow "properly" around the aircraft, but the main effect of that is the sharp increase in drag (due to the fuselage and fin going sideways), rather than a reduction of lift (which can occur, but not as dramatically as when during a stall). I've never heard of the term 'stall' referred to these sideslip-related effects (if you have, please quote the source), whereas I've always seen it associated with excessive pitch/AoA.
As for the picture above and the wing to be turned 90° to allegedly obtain "essentially the same problem", if I got what rotation you mean, I'm afraid that behind that assertion there is some confusion between Angle of Attack and sweepback angle of a wing. If you take the fully extended wing of an F-14 and pitch it upwards to an AoA of say 50° (i.e. well into the stall region), the resulting airflow and forces are completely different from the same wing at 0° AoA and swept back by 50° (which is a normal setting for a Tomcat).
The current animation shows purely a variation of sideslip angle, which bears some analogy with a wing being gradually swept back, but it has nothing to do with angle of attack nor stall. A meaningful animation could show for example something like this:
Assuming the turn is co-ordinated (that is purple arrow always at right angle to the wings) and the airspeed constant, then the diagram shows what happens when the turn radius decreases (= tightening the turn). More lift is needed to keep the trajectory, which can only be achieved by increasing the AoA (speed is constant and flaps are not considered here). At some point the turn will be so tight that the critical AoA is exceeded and the aircraft stalls. Note that it does so without dropping its speed, which implies that the stall speed Vs has increased while the turn radius was decreasing.
If you can take this sketch and turn it into a nice 3D animation of a B-52, adding the useful speed scale as in the present animation, I think that would definitely be a valuable contribution to the article.
Giuliopp 21:06, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree on that definition, which is a very generic and introductory definition of stall. I also agree on the sentence that, in the WP article about
stall, follows the quoted one: "This [reduction in lift] most usually occurs when the critical angle of attack for the airfoil is exceeded", which is what I have been trying to explain and what most likely happened at Fairchild AFB.
Giuliopp 13:18, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
What you say about the sideslip angle increasing etc. makes some sense but, excuse me if I'm blunt, what has it got to do with accelerated stall and the Fairchild crash? From the video you can tell that the fatal 360° turn was for most of it quite coordinated (= no sideslip), then it became too tight (= critical AoA exceeded → accelerated stall), and then the B-52 went down, uncontrollably, with a visible sideslip attitude. I won't go on any further on this thread because I would end up repeating the same things I've already explained.
That animation needs a fix. I suppose I'll have to do it (I can, in 2D, when I have a minute) then you can perfect it with the 3D model, deal? - Giuliopp out.
Giuliopp 00:27, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
As you no doubt are aware, stalls are complicated. The idea of my original diagram was to show that a stall can occur without a large increase in nose up attitude AND at speeds above the aircraft's normal stall speed. Whereas this one appears to be trying to explain every concept related to a stall. Of course weight and angle of attack need to be part of any complete definition, but we're not discussing stalls in general, we're discussing this crash. This crash had less to do with weight distribution than it did interrupted airflow (lift) due to maneuvering. If we were discussing the COD crash at around 00:20 of this video, weight would be a factor to emphasize. Anynobody 03:45, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Um, "a stall can occur without a large increase in nose up attitude;" this comes from the real world. Pilots are taught that a "stall" is when a wing stops flying, pure and simple. This can occur for many reasons related to bank angle, speed, attitude, etc. But to claim that "a large increase in nose up attitude" is REQUIRED for a stall, as your first point implies, simply isn't true. During straight and level flight, simply pull back your throttle and try to maintain that level attitude. It WILL require more back-stick pressure, but you don't need to increase the AoA; you WILL stall. I've done it. But you don't need to be a pilot to understand it (Full disclosure: I've only logged about 20 hours of flight-training, but this is how we were TAUGHT to stall, for recovery practice). Holland was obviously not in an extreme "nose up attitude," but he still stalled. Also, regarding the animation, a minor point: the green arrow would actually represent the lift REQUIRED to maintain flight, not the lift actually present (notably in this case). Proper pilot response is needed to keep the lift "in the green," so to speak. Quite simply, a wing at a right-angle to gravity will provide virtually NO vertical lift component. That was Czar 52's fatal mistake. I don't mean to lecture either. :) Your post is otherwise VERY informative. Cheers.
Jororo05 (
talk) 21:16, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
I would be interested to know the actual flight path of the plane, and its relation to the reported weapon storage facility (WSF). I haven't been able to find this information anywhere, but here is a satellite image from Mapquest [image deleted due to improper copyright] with my notes about locations of landmarks from a video of the crash (runway, control tower, water towers and buildings). Also indicated is my best guess at the location of the WSF (the fenced area south of the runway). Does anyone have a reference which would give some of this information? Boardhead ( talk) 17:01, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
As far as I know, there isn't a reliable source that shows the exact flight path of the aircraft. If you watch the video of the crash sequence, you can more or less guess the flight path from above, and then draw a line on this photo and place it in the article, as long as the copyright status is clear, which right now it isn't. Cla68 ( talk) 01:05, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
If people think an image and/or description of the flight path would be useful, we should find a way to add this to the main article. Boardhead ( talk) 18:43, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I am confused by two examples of a similar sentence construction in the article, one stating, "The accident investigation concluded that the chain of events leading to the crash was primarily attributable to Holland's personality and behavior, USAF leaders' delayed reactions to the event, and the sequence of events during the mishap flight of the aircraft," and the other very similarly stating, "The accident investigation concluded that the chain of events leading to the crash was primarily attributable to Holland's personality and behavior, USAF leaders' slow reaction to the accident, and the sequence of events during the final flight of the aircraft." The phrases in bold seem to be attributing the accident itself in part to things that happened after the accident (which would be impossible; an effect cannot precede a cause). The text of the article, though, shows that the USAF leaders' reaction was to repeated violations of flight safety rules as evidenced by both direct observation by those leaders and by reports from crew members who flew with Holland. It would seem that the more accurate phrase to use would be something like, "USAF leaders' slow response to the evidence and reports of that behavior" or something to that effect.
I tend to be cautious when editing a Wikipedia article with such a substantial possible error, so I am posting this here in the talk page in hopes that possibly the original author or an editor with some experience can examine the issue. 170.141.56.4 ( talk) 21:26, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
The mention of a flight plan that included bank angles of 60 degrees contradicts the statement in the section "Holland's Behavior." There the article says he had been cited for bank angles of more than 45 degrees. Those high bank angles exceeded the design limits of the airplane.
I didn't find a mention that crews had refused to fly with him. Did I miss that?
L K Tucker 69.1.46.40 ( talk) 22:48, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Looking at the view history for this article at Wikipedia article traffic statistics, I noticed that there was a huge spike in views of this article around Feb 3 and 4. Anyone know why so many people came to look at this article that particular day? Cla68 ( talk) 08:14, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
The article fails to explain Bud Hollands background. How did a personality like him end up in a mud-mover B-52, rather than a fighter plane? This kind of aerobatic attitude is more commonly found and tolerated in fighter jocks. 91.83.18.103 ( talk) 20:09, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQa4PpIkOZU&NR=1
Just thought you guys should know...
Cernex ( talk) 23:39, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm a former member of the 325th Bomb Squadron, and flew with Holland, McGeehan, and Huston several times, and was there during the accident. While I can't mention specifics, I commend the authors of this article, as it's one of the best, most concise reports on the accident I've yet seen.
The last comment in the Conclusion section, however, is in error. It mentions: "The final factor was the 10-knot (19 km/h) tailwind that pushed the steeply banked aircraft into the accelerated stall, resulting in the crash."
The idea of tailwinds pushing aircraft into stalls disappeared in World War I, and can most commonly be found among top ten lists of "don'ts," which includes not hedgehopping and not turning downwind. Ostensibly, the latter can lead to a stall. This is a myth. Turning underpowered, WWI aircraft at any altitude can lead to a stall, as drag is proportional to wing loading, and wing loading during a turn is significantly higher than in straight and level flight. For the underpowered WWI aircraft, it was often sufficient to overcome the full thrust available from the engine, and at low altitude, with no altitude left to recover, often resulted in a stall. It was the turning that stalled the aircraft in WWI, not turning downwind.
While I admire Diehl's other points, this one just isn't so.
Finally, an airplane in flight moves along with the mass of air through which it's flying. It does not matter if it's a tailwind or headwind, or 10 kts or 50 kts. The effect of an airplane moving through a moving mass of air is the same as if the air mass wasn't moving at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.177.20.134 ( talk) 00:15, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Myth removed from article.
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Is it worth mentioning that Meg Holland, Lt. Col Holland's daughter, has become a massive posthumous advocate/apologist for Holland? She's a truly driven individual, and has posted literally thousands of times in various Internet fora arguing that he was "completely innocent" and "the victim of a political witch-hunt". She curses people who condemn him, demands his "name be cleared", issues dire pronouncements/quasi-legal threats about "people who slander the dead" and has, according to several USAF sources, attempted to use Lt.Col Holland's not insubstantial remaining human assets (i.e- friends) in the USAF to "ruin the careers" (not my quote) of several active duty USAF officers and pilots who have spoken out against him, particularly those on the incident investigation board. I've witnessed one of these, and read reports of many others.
I'm actually fairly shocked to not find her name here on the talk page, as she has basically dedicated years of her life to canvassing internet forums dedicated to USAF accidents, air crashes, or piloting in general. The term "driven individual" is a kindness; obsessed might be a better term. I'd imagine she's probably editing under either an IP address or a WP:COI username. I can't imagine a fire that burns that hot is likely to give up easily. Vintovka Dragunova ( talk) 21:05, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
At 07:30 local time, the B-52 bomber crew prepared to practice the demonstration flight. And the B-52 took off at 13:58.
Why the mention of the practice run? Did anything significant happen through the rest of the morning? Valetude ( talk) 17:49, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
References
I'm trouble by the use of the word "demanding" in the fourth paragraph. This sentence, "The mission plan for the flight called for a demanding series of low-altitude passes, 60° banked turns, a steep climb, and a touch-and-go landing on Fairchild's Runway 23." is not right. I'm not sure if it comes from the source at the end of the para, I have no way to determine if the words come from that source. If they don't, I suggest changing the wording to, "The mission plan for the flight called for a series of low-altitude passes, 60° banked turns, a steep climb, and a touch-and-go landing on Fairchild's Runway 23. There's nothing demanding about that series of maneuvers. You can't argue the crash showed it was demanding. A private pilot would be expected to be able to fly those maneuvers in his checkride. Admittedly it is a big aircraft and the maneuvers would require more thought and finesse, but anybody with a little experience in a multi-engine aircraft ought to be competent to so this kind of thing. That's my suggestion. I leave it those who care about this change to consider whether to implement it. Best, MF. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.210.115.100 ( talk) 20:20, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
Thanks. In my last sentence I had meant to write that I leave it to those who "care about this page..." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.210.115.100 ( talk) 21:45, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
I've read in other articles that Holland flew a similar "wingover hammerhead" maneuver at at an airshow in 1992 (this article states 1993) which resulted in 100s of rivets failing at the wing root. If this occurred at a 60° bank angle, what is the likelihood that at a sharper 90° bank angle of the wing failing and resulting in a stall? I've heard this discussed before and seen a breakdown of why this could be a feasible explanation to the stall over the potential wind gust idea. Just wondering what your thoughts are. ITz JLAR ( talk) 22:13, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
I am reviewing this article as part of WP:URFA/2020, and I am concerned that this article might not meet the FA criteria anymore. My concerns are outlined before:
Is anyone interested in fixing up this article? If not, should it go to WP:FAR? Z1720 ( talk) 03:37, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
@ Hog Farm: I've been looking at the sources. Can you tell if Kern, Tony T. (1999). Darker Shades of Blue: The Rogue Pilot. McGraw-Hill Professional Publishing. ISBN 0-07-034927-4. in what's now the bibliography the same as Kern, Tony (1995). "Darker Shades of Blue: A Case Study of Failed Leadership". Neil Krey's CRM Developers Forum. Archived from the original on 16 February 2007. Retrieved 1 March 2007. in what's now the external links? Or are these two different works by the same person? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:09, 16 February 2023 (UTC)