Stephen Baltz was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 21 August 2021 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into 1960 New York mid-air collision. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on December 16, 2010 and December 16, 2013. |
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I've been told (don't remember by whom) that the pilot of the United Airlines flight was trying to crash-land in Prospect Park, but was unsuccessful. On the face of it, this makes sense: the park is a few blocks farther along the path the plane would be taking from Staten Island. — Anna Kucsma 20:55, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Both references I have state that the aircraft was far, far too badly damaged for the pilots to possibly have any control of the aircraft. I think laypersons often think that aircraft in distress are "trying to make an emergency landing" when quite often they're just out of control - I remember with the Greek aircraft disaster (Helios Airlines? I'm not sure off the top of my head) a few years ago some bystanders said, "He's trying to get to a safe place to ditch" but when the report came out it was clear the aircraft had been uncontrollable and the pilots were likely unconscious. Maybe it's just hope that pilots are trying to avoid crashing into ground targets. -- Charlene.fic 18:25, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
46 years ago today. -- In memoriam
Perhaps some old fashioned research is needed. I have the CAB accident report and first read it when it was released in 1962.
The collision damage to the Constellation was catastrophic. The damage to the DC-8 included the loss of the No. 4 engine, the outboard right wing, and part of the leading edge of the left wing. Control, if any, was marginal. He was cleared to Idelwyld, never turned final. He was headed towards La Garbage, if that was his plan - and I can't imagine anyone passing up Idelwyld for La Garbage, he didn't make it. Odd are he just kept going until he hit. Mark Lincoln 14:28, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
The article currently says sections fell into New York Harbor. This is imprecise. Miller Field is on the Atlantic Ocean side of Staten Island (and is now part of Gateway National Recreation Area). The body of water on this side is called Lower New York Bay. The way it is worded it is implied that chunks fell into the body of water between Manhattan and Staten Island. However it would probably be on the far side of Staten Island. Since there might be a remote chance that as written it is correct I haven't changed it but we should find a reference to make it more precise. Americasroof 17:09, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
There is no mention in the accident report of any wreckage falling in the water. Mark Lincoln 19:19, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
The 50th anniversary occurs on December 16, 2010. There will be a memorial service in New York. This, and other information that might possibly be used to improve on an already well-written article, has been presented in a series of articles in the New York Times during the past several days. I found the readers' comments left in response to one of the Times articles engrossing; perhaps other Wiki readers would appreciate links to the Times articles. Publius3 ( talk) 01:04, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
I don't know much about aeronautical navigation, and an explanation of these "points"--where they are, how they are named--would be a big help. -- Wi2g 15:07, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
-- JeffGBot ( talk) 18:56, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
In aviationarticles ONLY US Military articles conventionally use mdy dates. A concensus was reached that all other aviation articles should use dmy dates-- Petebutt ( talk) 06:42, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure that the airline is not called "New York Air" and it definitely does not talk about air in New York in 1960. This title is misleading. Epicgenius( talk to me • see my contributions) 13:05, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
The article should indicate why the plane crashed. I did not see that in here. Can anyone add some info? Thanks. 32.209.55.38 ( talk) 14:32, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
Glad to help. I updated information in the accident section and also quoted most of the "Probable Cause" statement from the Official Final Report. EditorASC ( talk) 19:01, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Stephen Baltz. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 July 10#Stephen Baltz until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Jay (Talk) 11:58, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
Per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stephen Baltz (2nd nomination), I restored the name of the boy who initially survived the crash. Everyone who voted says he should be mentioned in this article. I am not sure why User:WilliamJE believes otherwise, being that articles for other plane crashes with only one survivor mention the sole survivor's names. Some even have their own articles. I do not see what is the difference here. The Legendary Ranger ( talk) 13:39, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
The consensus is we don't name the dead or survivors of aviation disasters unless they have a WP article. Here are just some of the many discussions-
Note two of those discussions concerned sole survivors.
Plus see ANI discussions here [1] and here [2]. There is one exception- the cockpit crew of the aircraft involved. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 13:59, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
WilliamJE has now reverted five different editors who have wanted Stephen Baltz named in the article. I put together a timeline in case this gets escalated:
I've never seen so many editors fighting a single editor's crusade to remove a mention from an article. -- Tavix ( talk) 23:09, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
Come on, now. In case you feel it would help, go take a long look at WP:BRD. We're in the discussion part of it, and it's just pointless and self-destructive to just blindly revert people and threaten them with "in case this gets escalated". While you're at it, take a good look at the AFD you (Tavix) are using to defend the insertion of this non-notable person's name into this article, especially the closing statement. Here is the link. In case you don't want to click through and re-read that, I'll copy that closing statement here, with my own bolding added for emphasis on what I think you should be paying attention to: "The result was merge to 1960 New York mid-air collision. If the merge is attempted and there is a clear consensus at the target to reject mentioning his name, then this page may be speedily deleted per WP:CSD#G6 as an implementation of the RfD consensus that we shouldn't redirect to a page which doesn't mention the subject. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 05:41, 21 August 2021 (UTC)". So please don't try to use the AFD as a justification for reinsertion. So far, only WilliamJE and I have voiced an opinion about the consensus, but that consensus exists and I, and many other people, support that consensus. For the record, I, too had content reverted by WilliamJE under this consensus before I was aware of it: [10]. I found it frustrating to have my well-referenced content removed, but the more I read about the past discussions, the more I understood it. There are well-founded reasons why this consensus exists, so please don't go and re-add the content thinking it's just a personal battle between you and one other person. If I see it, I, too, will revert it per this consensus. RecycledPixels ( talk) 06:05, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
This discussion has been disrupted by
block evasion,
ban evasion, or
sockpuppetry from the following user:
Comments from this user should be excluded from assessments of consensus. |
Should Stephen Baltz be mentioned by name in this article? Ivanvector's squirrel ( trees/ nuts) 13:29, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
For some background, see the section above, and related discussions at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 July 17#Stephen Baltz and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stephen Baltz (2nd nomination).
Stephen Baltz was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 21 August 2021 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into 1960 New York mid-air collision. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on December 16, 2010 and December 16, 2013. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I've been told (don't remember by whom) that the pilot of the United Airlines flight was trying to crash-land in Prospect Park, but was unsuccessful. On the face of it, this makes sense: the park is a few blocks farther along the path the plane would be taking from Staten Island. — Anna Kucsma 20:55, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Both references I have state that the aircraft was far, far too badly damaged for the pilots to possibly have any control of the aircraft. I think laypersons often think that aircraft in distress are "trying to make an emergency landing" when quite often they're just out of control - I remember with the Greek aircraft disaster (Helios Airlines? I'm not sure off the top of my head) a few years ago some bystanders said, "He's trying to get to a safe place to ditch" but when the report came out it was clear the aircraft had been uncontrollable and the pilots were likely unconscious. Maybe it's just hope that pilots are trying to avoid crashing into ground targets. -- Charlene.fic 18:25, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
46 years ago today. -- In memoriam
Perhaps some old fashioned research is needed. I have the CAB accident report and first read it when it was released in 1962.
The collision damage to the Constellation was catastrophic. The damage to the DC-8 included the loss of the No. 4 engine, the outboard right wing, and part of the leading edge of the left wing. Control, if any, was marginal. He was cleared to Idelwyld, never turned final. He was headed towards La Garbage, if that was his plan - and I can't imagine anyone passing up Idelwyld for La Garbage, he didn't make it. Odd are he just kept going until he hit. Mark Lincoln 14:28, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
The article currently says sections fell into New York Harbor. This is imprecise. Miller Field is on the Atlantic Ocean side of Staten Island (and is now part of Gateway National Recreation Area). The body of water on this side is called Lower New York Bay. The way it is worded it is implied that chunks fell into the body of water between Manhattan and Staten Island. However it would probably be on the far side of Staten Island. Since there might be a remote chance that as written it is correct I haven't changed it but we should find a reference to make it more precise. Americasroof 17:09, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
There is no mention in the accident report of any wreckage falling in the water. Mark Lincoln 19:19, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
The 50th anniversary occurs on December 16, 2010. There will be a memorial service in New York. This, and other information that might possibly be used to improve on an already well-written article, has been presented in a series of articles in the New York Times during the past several days. I found the readers' comments left in response to one of the Times articles engrossing; perhaps other Wiki readers would appreciate links to the Times articles. Publius3 ( talk) 01:04, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
I don't know much about aeronautical navigation, and an explanation of these "points"--where they are, how they are named--would be a big help. -- Wi2g 15:07, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
-- JeffGBot ( talk) 18:56, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
In aviationarticles ONLY US Military articles conventionally use mdy dates. A concensus was reached that all other aviation articles should use dmy dates-- Petebutt ( talk) 06:42, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure that the airline is not called "New York Air" and it definitely does not talk about air in New York in 1960. This title is misleading. Epicgenius( talk to me • see my contributions) 13:05, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
The article should indicate why the plane crashed. I did not see that in here. Can anyone add some info? Thanks. 32.209.55.38 ( talk) 14:32, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
Glad to help. I updated information in the accident section and also quoted most of the "Probable Cause" statement from the Official Final Report. EditorASC ( talk) 19:01, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Stephen Baltz. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 July 10#Stephen Baltz until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Jay (Talk) 11:58, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
Per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stephen Baltz (2nd nomination), I restored the name of the boy who initially survived the crash. Everyone who voted says he should be mentioned in this article. I am not sure why User:WilliamJE believes otherwise, being that articles for other plane crashes with only one survivor mention the sole survivor's names. Some even have their own articles. I do not see what is the difference here. The Legendary Ranger ( talk) 13:39, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
The consensus is we don't name the dead or survivors of aviation disasters unless they have a WP article. Here are just some of the many discussions-
Note two of those discussions concerned sole survivors.
Plus see ANI discussions here [1] and here [2]. There is one exception- the cockpit crew of the aircraft involved. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 13:59, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
WilliamJE has now reverted five different editors who have wanted Stephen Baltz named in the article. I put together a timeline in case this gets escalated:
I've never seen so many editors fighting a single editor's crusade to remove a mention from an article. -- Tavix ( talk) 23:09, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
Come on, now. In case you feel it would help, go take a long look at WP:BRD. We're in the discussion part of it, and it's just pointless and self-destructive to just blindly revert people and threaten them with "in case this gets escalated". While you're at it, take a good look at the AFD you (Tavix) are using to defend the insertion of this non-notable person's name into this article, especially the closing statement. Here is the link. In case you don't want to click through and re-read that, I'll copy that closing statement here, with my own bolding added for emphasis on what I think you should be paying attention to: "The result was merge to 1960 New York mid-air collision. If the merge is attempted and there is a clear consensus at the target to reject mentioning his name, then this page may be speedily deleted per WP:CSD#G6 as an implementation of the RfD consensus that we shouldn't redirect to a page which doesn't mention the subject. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 05:41, 21 August 2021 (UTC)". So please don't try to use the AFD as a justification for reinsertion. So far, only WilliamJE and I have voiced an opinion about the consensus, but that consensus exists and I, and many other people, support that consensus. For the record, I, too had content reverted by WilliamJE under this consensus before I was aware of it: [10]. I found it frustrating to have my well-referenced content removed, but the more I read about the past discussions, the more I understood it. There are well-founded reasons why this consensus exists, so please don't go and re-add the content thinking it's just a personal battle between you and one other person. If I see it, I, too, will revert it per this consensus. RecycledPixels ( talk) 06:05, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
This discussion has been disrupted by
block evasion,
ban evasion, or
sockpuppetry from the following user:
Comments from this user should be excluded from assessments of consensus. |
Should Stephen Baltz be mentioned by name in this article? Ivanvector's squirrel ( trees/ nuts) 13:29, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
For some background, see the section above, and related discussions at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 July 17#Stephen Baltz and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stephen Baltz (2nd nomination).