What is this southron crap doing on wikipedia? Faveuncle 02:41, 21 February 2007 (UTC)Faveuncle
Faveuncle, does this imply that Law enacted in Southern states is "crap" and not politically correct for Wikipedia? Your statement implies that. Burk Hale 02:50, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Is the dispute and NPOV due to the article being so controversial? Probably. It may be that those who wish to suppress the information about the 1957 Georgia Memorial is looking for excusses to suppress it from Wikipedia, and this is highly likely to be the case. Burk Hale 02:54, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
This article could perhaps be turned into something interesting. Right now, however, portions of it are written from a non-neutral point of view (the article spends a whole section attempting to "justify" the enactment, which is entirely inappropriate), portions are sourced to unreliable sources, and the article needs to be cleaned up for text formatting and wikificaiton. It needs a *lot* of work. · j e r s y k o talk · 02:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Where is the evidence supporting the spurious claims of the article being "non-neutral" NPOV? What sources are unreliable? The claims against this article are vague at best and need a *lot* of work. Burk Hale 03:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Should a section called "Controversy" be placed below the preview? Are actual documents at rangeguide.net such as the editorial from the Chattanooga Free Press, and clear evidence from other sources below Wikipedia standards? Please be specific. Burk Hale 03:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I've attempted to interact several times with fellow editors, and each time I post a comment, it gets erased due to new activity on the talk section. Burk Hale 03:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm now getting messages from Jersyko that I will be blocked from editing if I do not interact, even though I have made several attempts to do so. Burk Hale 03:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I am trying to interact civilly. Where am I going wrong? Please explain? Burk Hale 03:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
The article has been completely re-edited to remove supportive evidence. Burk Hale 03:41, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Someone keeps editing out the citations, so I have to keep editing them back in. It seems as if there is pointed effort to suppress the validity of the '57 Georgia Memorial. Burk Hale 04:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I've had to replace the citations several times, even again just now. Burk Hale 04:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I just noticed this (seems like this sort of thing pops up after I edit, without notice:
he article still contained point of view problems. Subsequent edits by a different editor fixed that. Please do not revert to the POV version again. · j e r s y k o talk · 04:18, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
What is the POV version, the one with the citations? Burk Hale
This statement: "the document reveals that the de facto government existing since these unlawful and illegal acts appears to be a subversive organization in contradistinction to the claim that the U.S. government is an example of representative government in the world", is what the document reveals. That is not an un-neutral statement. The document itself is NOT a neutral document. Is that the problem? Burk Hale 04:47, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Dear user Will: Your are picking at straws and appear to be looking for any reason to change what I've said. Please study up on petition and the other words noted below in "links removed". Burk Hale 06:10, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
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Dear Will: Let me clarify. I'm not talking about the policies of Wikipedia, as they are reasonable. I'm talking about the memorial. Burk Hale 06:27, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Why are we linking to original copies of acts the legislature of Colorado? Why are we linking to a video from the 1980s about the "secret government"? What do these have to do with the 1957 Georgia resolution? - Will Beback · † · 05:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Dear readers: for what it's worth, here is a portion of the text of the purported Resolution, as reprinted at one of the web sites linked in the article:
Copyright is claimed by the Carl Vinson Institute of Government of The University of Georgia. However, if this Resolution is indeed a government document, then I would assume no copyright exists as to the quoted text. In any case, the material is excerpted under the Fair Use Doctrine. Yours, Famspear 05:18, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I removed the following language:
This language in context is legally nonsensical. Where a state legislature passes a resolution asking for the U.S. Congress to do something, there is no such thing as a "default" and no such thing as an "admission by default."
By the way, I know of no procedure under the U.S. legal system whereby the Congress can simply declare previously ratified constituional amendments to be void merely because a state legislature asks the Congress to do such a thing. Yours, Famspear 05:27, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Dear readers: for what it's worth, the resolution was passed and approved on March 8, 1957. It is listed in the Georgia Code Annotated. When a resolution passes both houses and is signed by the governor (or president if a federal resolution), it becomes law. This particular resolution is a memorial, a form of petition. The federal government defaulted by not responding to the petition by taking action to declare the fraudulent amendments void or by responding to the government of Georgia. This will have continued for 50 years on March 8th of this year. When a memorial/petition/action remains unchallenged for decades, especially for 50 years, its import is sealed in stone, as it were, and even more force is applied to the action. FACT: The amendments were not ratified, and that is proven by the article. And, by the way, I know of no lawful procedure for a president to declare an un-ratified amendment as ratified. All the information noting this was on the previous version of the article and clearly explained it all, but I was forced to remove the verifying information. When a person or an entity fails to respond to an action, it called a default and is commonly accepted that such a default is the same as an admission. Maxims of Law clearly substantiate this.
I'm replacing this language: ::[ . . . ] and resulted in a default on behalf of the federal government which is commonly known as an admission by default [ . . . ]
... as it is supported my many maxims of law. Burk Hale 05:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Deat user Famspear: No need to apologize. In the previous article, wherein I was forced to comments regarding verifiability, I clearly showed court precendent (Utah Supreme Court) that stated that only a state itself has the right to determine if it has ratified an amendment. Georgia said that it had not ratified the subject amendments and that several others could not have due to the overthrow of the government documeted in the memorial and thusfar unrefuted for nearly 50 years. I suggest you study up on the terms DEFAULT, ACQUIESE and PETITION. Your reasoning is in error and wikipedia is not the place to despute a valid enactment of Georgia. Burk Hale 05:59, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Will, please feel free to provide evidence that the federal government responded to Georgia. An exhaustive search in Georgia has shown no evidence of a response whatsoever. You must understand that it is the LACK of any action that adversely affects the federal government, and supports Georgia's petition. Burk Hale 06:31, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Dear Burk Hale:
The Utah Supreme Court case you cited most certainly is not precedent for the argument that the Georgia Legislature, by passing a resolution in 1957, could somehow nullify amendments to the United States Constitution ratified after the Civil War. The Utah Supreme Court has never ruled any such thing. You may want to review the articles on Stare decisis and Precedent and Obiter dictum.
The statements that my "reasoning is in error" and that "wikipedia is not the place to despute [dispute] a valid enactment of Georgia" are examples of whistling past the cemetery, so to speak. Again, neither the State of Georgia nor any other state can "enact" something that legally nullifies a provision of the United States Constitution ratified many, many years before -- whether the Federal government were to "respond" to the state resolution or not.
The terms "default," "acquiesce," and "petition" all have various legal meanings in various legal contexts, none of which can be cobbled together to support your original research.
The statement that "You must understand that it is the LACK of any action that adversely affects the federal government, and supports Georgia's petition" is, for purposes of Wikipedia, both unverifiable and also prohibited original research -- aside from being blatantly incorrect from a legal standpoint. You are not going to find any reliable source of legal scholarship that asserts that the 1957 Georgia resolution and the subsequent lack of U.S. Government response have the legal effect you argue they have.
As editor Will Beback has stated, if you want to state, in a Wikipedia article, the things you want to say, you must have reliable sources that actually say those things. Wikipedia is not the place for your own original research in the form of your own conclusions about what things mean. Yours, Famspear 13:06, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Dear Burk Hale: Oh, and at the expense of appearing to beat a dead horse, let's look at the following language: "When a resolution passes both houses and is signed by the governor (or president if a federal resolution), it becomes law." Weeelllll, sometimes.
At the Federal level if both houses of Congress pass what is called a joint resolution that is intended to be a statute, and the President signs the joint resolution as prescribed in the Constitution, then it becomes a statute in the same way that a "bill" passed by Congress becomes a statute in that manner. There are other kinds of resolutions, however. There are also concurrent resolutions and simple resolutions. These generally are not sent to the President, and do not in and of themselves "make" laws.
As I recall, concurrent resolutions may be used, for example, to correct the text of a bill or joint resolution before the text is finalized and sent to the President. And simple resolutions are basically non-statutory resolutions passed by just one chamber (either House or Senate).
Regarding "resolutions" by the Georgia legislature, I suspect (without having researched this) that you have a somewhat similar situation: some types of resolutions may be intended to enact statutes, while others (like the one that is the subject of this article) are simply there to express a sense of the legislature, or to request action from the Federal government, and so on. By the way, I'm curious. You say that this particular resolution is found in the Georgia Code annotated. Can you provide the specific citation to the Georgia Code annotated? Is the citation in one of the links that was formerly in the article? (If so, can you tell me which link?) Yours, Famspear 18:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Whew! I removed tons of links that were only tangentially and tenuously related to the statements in the article. Videos and other materials that are only tangentially related to the subject matter of the article should not be appended to specific statements in the text unless the materials actually support the specific statement. Wikipedia articles are not supposed to be dumping grounds for these kinds of links. It is not necessary or appropriate, for example, to provide five or ten citations to the statement that "50 years" have passed since the resolution was promulgated. Most people can count from 1957 to 2007 and come up with the number of intervening years without recourse to all these citations. Yours, Famspear 05:44, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
All links that you removed should be discussed for the relevance before removed. What is it about the links that you feel were "tangentially and tenuously related"? Burk Hale 05:52, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Dear Famspear:
I pruned 90% of the article myself, removing all the comments the clearly explained everything for verafiability. I was forced to leave citations alone, without explanation. See where it got me? I saw it coming, and still could not avoid all this argument. I've spent 17 years lecturing about this document. You'd think I knew something about it. I'm exahusted to, and need to go visit my mother in the hospital tomorrow. I never imagined that I would get so much abuse here at Wikipedia, and that telling the truth on Wikipedia would require such gymnastics and hoop-jumping. Now I know, and it may be hopeless to share the truth on Wikipedia about this issue. Nevertheless, the truth remains on FIGJA's webpages sponsored by rangeguide.net, and it cannot be removed from there. Burk Hale 06:19, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Dear Will: Is Wikipedia limited to posting by those that fail to see the relevance of things, or those that do? Your failure to see the relevance of the Colorado legislation evidencing a pre-existing amendment that has been removed by the federal government, AND which verifies the facts of the memorial, AND a documentary on subversive activities of the federal government by a nationaly known commentator on PBS is not our problem. Please do your homework before you chastise someone that has? Burk Hale 06:24, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Dear Burk Hale: The beneficial, desperately needed pruning to which I am referring was, I believe, the work begun by Wikipedia editor Zantastic, here: [2]. Regarding tangential links, by the way, I want to point out that I and the other Wikipedia editors do not have a burden of proof to persuade you that the links do not belong in the article. The burden to support any particular text or link in a Wikipedia article is on the editor inserting that text or link. So your statement that "[a]ll links that you removed should be discussed for the relevance before [being] removed" is not correct. What I want to do, however, as time permits, is to work with you on improving the article. Yours, Famspear 15:33, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
The resolution claims that the 14th and 15th Amendments were ratified in such a way that the Southern states, including Georgia were not properly represented in the process. The resolution claims that this lack of representation violated the U.S. Constitution, thus the amendments were never properly ratified. The resolution calls on Congress to declare the amendments null because of the purported Constitutional violation (one wonders, however, why GA wouldn't have said the same about the 13th Amendment, though that's neither here nor there). This can all be found in and gleaned from the source text itself. [3] Nowhere does the text say that ratification of the Amendments constitutes an overthrow of the federal and confederate governments. Nowhere does the text say that the U.S. Government that has existed since the ratification of the amendments is a "subversive organization" or is no longer a representative government (rather, that at the time of the adoption of the amendments it was not representative; the text actually notes that the government today is a "champion of Constitutional governments"). Thanks. · j e r s y k o talk · 14:52, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
First, this experience with Wikipidea editors has been enlightening and revealing, enlightening in the fact that I have learned more about where some Americans stand on jurisprudence, where they fail to grasp its finer nuances when subtrafuge was not so popular in earlier Ameriacn Jurisprudence, and how political correctness plays such a powerful role in recording history. I settle for the good of this experience and remain amazed that the 1957 Georgia Memorial to Congress managed to remain on Wikipedia at all.
I could spend days providing citations supporting everything I've said. But much of it would have to be uploaded to a server and most likely by me, but it would then have me associated with it and thus not permissable on Wikipedia. Now I realize that internationally recognized Bill Moyers of the Public Broadcast System is just that, an internationally recognized reporter of the Public Broadcast System, but he clearly video documented subversive activities conducted by the U.S. government that were current with the period in which the memorial was enacted. Regarding other "filtered-out" citations, the Colorado citations that I provided, that showed photocopied evidence of the original 13th Amendment as a Constitutional Amendment in the Colorado code (there were other supportive documents verifying the original 13th Amendment found in the British Archives and other places that were overlooked in the antebellum and postbellum damage control conducted by the subversives in America), clearly shows that not only was there antebellum and postbellum subversion by those supporting federal control of ALL the several states (subverting states rights), it evidences the fact that the second so-called 13th Amendment was actually the 14th Amendment. This was not known by the Georgia Legislature at the time of the memorial, as it had been well hidden and suppressed by war and later by the terrorization of the Reconstruction Era, otherwise it may have been included in the memorial. Nevertheless, it supports the articles mention of subversion as it directly relates to subversion mentioned in the memorial. One only needs to look at the various reasons stated for the memorial by the Georgia Legislature and see that there was a concern for subverion of states rights again during a period of aggressive Marxist movement in America that played the race card in every hand.
For those that fail to see what I have said, having come from many years of research, you are welcome to attend my lectures, as I simply do not have time to devote to Wikipedia by arguing with editors forever and ever.
I'll leave you with these little tid-bits:
Georgian's were very clever with their memorial/petition. They knew that the federal government would arrogantly ignore the memorial/petition and that it caught the de facto "Congress" in a severe catch 22 situation. They knew that they would default on the petition. They knew that the de facto "Congress" could do nothing to "un-ratify" the purportedly "ratified" amendments that failed to get ratification from a representative government in each of required number among the several states. They knew that ratificaion was declared by Executive Order, and not because it was ratified in accordance with the Constitution. They knew that if the memorial/petition was properly addressed that a big can of worms would be opened.
And as expected, the federal government ignored it, and trusted in their overwhelming "bayonets", the fear they had worked so hard to instill for almost a century and the continual dumbing down of Americans by telling a false history fabricated by the victors again and again over time. But they gave Georgians a document that would endure for all time, a document that would grow more forceful with age (yes, there is such a thing as an "aged document", but do not expect modern "14th Amendment due process jural experts" to give it just due because it serves to indict them later).
However, they did not just send it to "Congress" (as certain biased editors here would have us believe). They also sent it to their own Congressional Representatives and Senators, AND The Chief Justice of the United States. The Chief Justice (and supreme Court [not mispelled]) could have ruled the Executive Orders as an abuse of Executive Powers. But be aware that it was properly sent to all parties, and all of them have no excuse to be ignorant of the facts the memorial stated once their ignorance was at a end. Their ignorance came to an end (maxim in parte), and from that point forward they were, and are, liable for any subversive acts, or any other acts, based on the fraudulent amendments. The present 140 year-old voting franchise is also a sham and a fraud, and thus all subsequent acts since the so-called "14th Amendment" are also a sham and a fraud without standing.
Also, when Congressmen and state legislators are unduly removed from their offices at bayonet point, that is subversion, and their is not squirming out of that fact. Anyone that tells you otherwise is biased. The memorial clearly shows that the People's representatives were subverted, and thus the People's government. The memorial shows that the U.S. government is not an example of representative government, and clearly states that fact.
Being that the 1957 Georgia Memorial to Congress was a petition in the form of a memorial, the facts stated in the memorial were not only for the benefit of those that it was addressed to, but a clear statement of Georgia's position on the matter. When it comes to ratification by a state, the ultimate authority in deciding the validity of the ratification is the state that does (or rejects) the ratification. I endeavored to cite this as well, but it was also "filtered-out".
Here is part of the original article's validation that I was forced to remove:
Judge A.H. Ellett, of the Utah Supreme Court, in Dyett v. Turner, 439 P2d 266 @ 269, 20 U2d 403 [1968], concluded:
... the States have the "textually demonstrable constitutional commitment of the issues" to determine the validity of the ratification votes cast on an Amendment", and ..."The authority to determine the validity of the votes cast in ratification of an Amendment are with the States..."
Reference: Judge A.H. Ellett (Dyett v. Turner, 439 P2d 266 @ 269, 20 U2d 403 [1968]):
Source: http://www.rangeguide.net/illegal14thamendment.htm
So, you see? Even the Utah Supreme Court "had a clue".
Georgia was declaring that the so-called 14th and 15th Amendments were invalidly enacted in accord with their commitments to the People, and their own conscience. Who, in 1957, was going to burn them at the stake like Cathars in the Inquisition? They dared the U.S. government to show their despotic hand or respond to the memorial.
Granted, the heat was on regarding regarding racial issues of the day, but it remains that when unlawful enactments are clearly declared invalid (or void due to unconstitutionality) that one must return to the previous Lawful enactments (maxim). And at this time of history, the subversive groups rooted in the federal government were ready to play the race card again, to their own agenda, while pretending to be taking a stand for a people claiming to be disenfranchised. Georgia simply noted that they had been previously disenfranchised and a NEW ORDER was franchised under the most dispicable circumstances, circumstances that pivoted directly on the so-called 14th and 15th Amendments purportedly enactmented and the coverup of the original 13th Amendment. The "de jure" train was derailed and never ever got back on track.
The main focus of the 14th Amendment was to subvert state governments across the board and create a new form of citizenship for those "under the jurisdiction" they created, most of which attaches on the contractual side of the Constitution that Ben Franklin warned about (Pandora's Box was opened). I wonder if any editor here "gets a clue" by considering why the subversives felt such need to go as far as they did to force the provisions of the so-called 14th Amendment. This editor found out why, and traced all the relating subversive activities over a 17 year period. The evidence is a severe indictment against the U.S. government and all those that knowingly and willingly support the despotism of U.S., Incorporated, an agent of the British Crown (which is a puppet government as well).
In closing, I may never find any evidence suitable for the modern "jurisprudence" that some of the editors here adhere to, despite the fact that the courts today are the epitome of injustice (a tragic joke) and are actually legislative tribunals and courts martial proceeding under color of law against civilians, a pretence of justice that began over 145 years ago with the so-called "Civil War" (what a misnomer).
So I am at a disadvantage here on Wikipedia, and I'm noting a sense of futility in ever seeing the full import of the 1957 Georgia Memorial to Congress being allowed to be documented in the article. Burk Hale 22:14, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for making my points. Burk Hale 22:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I've edited my original article, replaced certain citations (to meet Wikipedia verifiability requirements) and specifically focused on what the 1957 Georgia memorial makes notable, listing the specific points it makes (since its actual text is not allowed to be posted). The new edit totally leaves out any potential Wikipedia violations. The citations are verifiable and reputable citations from notable news reporting sources, congressional records and codified law, with the addition of certain written reference citations that are not on the internet for your own verification in your local legal or public library or contacting the respective news sources for copies at your own expense. I have already provided a great deal of imformation at my own expense regarding this this article initiated be me.
But what is more important, since there has been a recent motion to delete the article for lack of notable value, is the focus on all the extremely controversial and notable points that makes the memorial unlike any legislation ever enacted by a state addressing the subversion of the federal government in defense of the Constitution and States Rights. Deletion of any of the new edited article gives rise to bias against the articles notable contribution to Wikipedia. Burk Hale 02:56, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Jersey - I'll examine this and make the appropriate corrections. The US NEWS & World Report article posted by the Constitution Society is available to the general public, and so is the cite from the Chattanooga Free Press, which is photocopied. If NPOV applies here, then it must apply to all citations by the SPLC and other similar non-neutral organizations used on Wikipedia IN GOOD FAITH. But, they do "appear" to be views similar to the memorial itself.. Both news sources are verifiable. I'll add the word purported to the introductory paragraph. The resolution is published in the Acts of Georgia, and is an "act" not merely a resolution. All resolutions that are approved become acts. I wish to note that you deleted a significant amount of my re-edited article that was in compliance. Burk Hale 04:08, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Jersey - The articles do "appear" to be NPOV as much as the memorial itself, but since an issue of NON_NOTABILITY has been raised about the memorial and the article in regards to deletion of the article, it would stand to reason that its notability be verified by news reporting that adds credit to the notable aspects of the article that has been questioned. I'd like to note the the very first comment on this discussion was purely biased and argument. Thanks for the perspective and editorial observations. Burk Hale 04:31, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Jersey - You said "These point of view problems persist throughout your edit." You stand corrected. This is a broad brush that leads me to believe that you meant all that I re-edited (especially since you deleted everything I wrote). Further, POV of the memorial itself is not editorial POV, but the facts about what the memorial is addressing, and my editing points out the facts about the memorial and what it is saying. You also said, regarding the sources, "referencing articles that are unavailable to the general public is generally discouraged, such as the lexis articles), but they still do not adhere to neutral point of view." You stand corrected again when you state, "The issue is not the POV of the sources..". Your comments are not a little confusing and misleading. Burk Hale 04:49, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Jersey - I assume you now wish to be specific, now, about the lexis source, which is not an article as you claimed, but publicly accessible Internet source for the actual Georgia Code Annotated regarding the Subversive Activities Act. Burk Hale 04:56, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Aside from the POV problems, which I still contend are contained in the edit, the edit introduced a large amount of poor writing and wording into the article and uses an improper referencing style. Unlike before the edit, the article now needs a major cleanup. Tagging as such. · j e r s y k o talk · 14:44, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I just saw the latest NPOV banner on the article. What's that about? There are no biased POV comments in the article, just a clear and concise article on what the memorial says, with no biased opinions and non-verifiable citations. The NPOV claim has no standing. It appears that the non-neutral content of the 1957 Georgia Memorial to Congress itself, and the article's unbiased reporting on the memorial, with verifiable citations (without quoting the actual text of the document), is causing the NPOV banner to be placed on the article? Is that correct? Did I miss a straw someone is grasping for? I also notice that the delete banner is still on the article as well. Pray tell, is this article doomed to censorship no matter how well it complies with Wikipedia? Burk Hale 05:44, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
No NPOV issues specified. Removing NPOV. Burk Hale 05:49, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
In an effort to gauge consensus from the wider community on this point, I have started an RFC on this article. The relevant disputes are discussed at some length in the above threads. To summarize:
· j e r s y k o talk · 15:00, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
The 1957 Georgia Memorial might have some historical significance, which is why a Wikipedia article on it might be beneficial. As explained elsewhere in this talk page, however, the Memorial has essentially no legal significance. The 1957 Georgia Memorial has no legal effect on the United States Constitution, including any amendments thereto.
If it is ultimately decided by Wikipedia consensus that the fringe argument -- that the Memorial does somehow affect the 14th and 15th Amendments -- should be mentioned in a Wikipedia article, neutral point of view would require that we also disclose (if such is the case) that no court has ruled the 14th and 15th amendments to be invalid, etc. (whether based on the "Georgia Memorial" argument or any other argument).
Many fringe arguments, however, do not warrant inclusion in Wikipedia at all. In this context please note:
Yours, Famspear 15:23, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I am new to this dispute, having arrived here via the RFC. I have nothing against the concept of expanding the article beyond a stub by describing the document in more detail. However, the changes made to this article violate Wikipedia standards of style, quality and neutrality. It clearly reflects an attempt by the editor to push his point of view, in violation of WP:NPOV. In addition, the Chattanooga Free Press article User:Burk Hale cites says that the person who was pushing this issue in 1995 was none other than Burk Elder Hale III. That means the user is presumably also violating WP:NOR. I believe all changes by User:Burk Hale should be reverted and replaced with a neutrally written, Wikipedia-style-compliant expansion of the document summary. In fact, I'm going to do that right now. -- Mwalcoff 03:35, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I concur with editor Mwalcoff. Yours, Famspear 05:08, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I tried to improve the article, but found limited information that could be used to do so. For one, the "memorial" itself says little more than that the amendments are invalid because the Southern states were excluded from Congress and because the Reconstruction state governments that ratified them were not legitimate authorities. So there's not much more we can say about the document. And about the only websites that mention the memorial are Wikipedia mirrors and Hale's own pages. So my recommendation is that we go back to the stub version. -- Mwalcoff 23:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Dear Burk Hale: As explained elsewhere on this talk page, editor Mwalcoff's omission of the contention that the "memorial states the position of Georgia that the government of the United States was overthrown by subversives" is entirely appropriate, as the memorial does not state that the government of the United States was overthrown by subversives. The references to "subversives" that had been placed in the article were put there by one or more contributors to Wikipedia (I haven't yet checked to see who did it). The terms "subversive" and "subversive organizations" do not even appear in the text of the 1957 document. Insertion of the language regarding "subversives" left an incorrect impression in the article -- as does your comment to editor Mwalcoff above.
Statements like:
and:
--are not doing much to bolster your arguments about the text of the article. Yours, Famspear 22:22, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Dear fellow editors: Just to be clear, the language at the bottom of that 20 February 2007 Burk Hale edit states (in part):
Yours, Famspear 22:44, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
While the discussion above continues (regarding which version of this article should be developed), I went ahead and simplified the citation to the University of Georgia web site where the 1957 Memorial is posted. First, I removed the duplicated links, and just put one link at the end of the list. This should be sufficient to clearly show that all the material is being sourced to the 1957 Memorial itself (except where other links appear in the list, of course). Second, I changed the link itself so that the reader goes straight to the document. As previously posted, the link took you to a page at the University website that consisted of a list of various documents, and you then had to locate the link for the 1957 Memorial and click on it. I've just saved everybody a step. Yours, Famspear 20:43, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
OK, I have now completely re-written the list of contentions by reading the actual text of the 1957 Georgia Memorial (the resolution). This hopefully will reduce some of the POV, verifiability, and original research problems.
As previously written, the material included repeated references to "subversive organizations," and what not, with citation to Georgia statutory provisions on that. The terms "subversive" and "subversive organizations" are not even found in the text of the 1957 Georgia Memorial. The references to "subversives" were classic examples of spin -- original research, and especially unverifiable (not supported by the actual material that was being linked, which was the actual text of the Memorial). Yours, Famspear 21:06, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Now I have put the long list of citations at the bottom of the article into a footnote that ties directly to the place in the text where the related contention is made -- that various states actually rejected the proposed amendment or amendments. From my perspective the material looks better in a footnote and makes the article look a bit more like Wikipedia. Any comments? Yours, Famspear 21:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
PS - To see where we are, compare the current version to this: [9] Yours, Famspear 21:36, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Post-script: Oh, sometimes I just can't stop! I have to point out that the link that had been provided in the article to the Georgia statutes, which had nothing to do with the 1957 resolution, was to the Official Code of Georgia, title 16 (Crimes and Offenses), Chapter 11, Article 1, Part 1, section 16-11-4, entitled "Advocating overthrow of government". That provision states (in part):
This, along with the citation to the 1957 resolution (which, as already noted contained no language at all about "subversives"), was Burk Hale's support for his verbiage in the article to the effect that the 1957 resolution "asserts" something about the Federal government, etc., being a "subversive" organization. Yours, Famspear 23:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
On 21 February 2007 (Feb. 20, U.S. central time), Burk Hale inserted the following verbiage on this talk page:
At one point I asked Burk Hale [12] for a citation so that we could find the Memorial "listed" in the Georgia Code Annotated. At this point (early Saturday morning, March 3, 2007, US central time) no response has been provided. As noted above, he did at one point cite to the Georgia Code, but that citation was provided for the text of the "subversive organization" criminal statute quoted above, not for the 1957 resolution. The Georgia criminal statute and the 1957 Georgia resolution are two completely different things.
As noted above, some resolutions are "the law" -- and others are not. Contrary to the implication by Burk Hale, the mere fact that a particular resolution passes both houses and is signed by the governor, the President, etc., does not necessarily make that resolution "a law" (for Congressional resolutions, for example, see my discussion on this talk page regarding joint resolutions, concurrent resolutions, and simple resolutions). As of now, user Burk Hale has not provided any citation for his proposition that the 1957 Memorial is the law in Georgia or anywhere else, or that the resolution "is listed in the Georgia Code Annotated." Yours, Famspear 14:49, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
As noted, so much has been deleted, and massaged with "politically correct" handling, it is amazing that the article has remained here at all. I'm not here to argue, just share the facts about the one of the most controversial and notable pieces of state legislation on the books. I have better things to do than waste time arguing with those that refuse to see what this document clearly says. If one is resticted from quoting the exacty text, and must write about it in the form of an article, one should be allowed to state what is "says", not what it "states".
If anyone wants to pick up a copy of the book, Acts of Georgia - 1957, at any legal library in Georgia, one will readily see the 1957 Georgia Memorial to Congress there. It is a fact that a joint resolution signed by the chief executive officer becomes law. Check with the Library of Congress for your own verification. It is an Act, PERIOD.
For anyone with a measure of intelligence that reads Georgia's 1953 Sedition and Subversive Activities Act, codified before 1957 (hello?), one will clearly see that the un-Constitutional overthrowing of governments is SUBVERSIVE. That appears to agitate some editors here who are not willing to see the FACTS. They do not want to see the word "subversive" being used in connection with the de facto U.S government, even if the de facto U.S. government has not denied it for over 50 years.
In closing, politically correct editing will no-doubt continue to "soften" and "politically correct" this article, maybe to the point of it being deleted altogether, and keep it in question to subvert its relevance and notariety. Burk Hale 19:17, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
The 1957 Georgia Memorial to Congress notes "subversive" acts. Georgia code defines "subversive". The terms usage in the article is not an "un-verifiable" opinion, a "non-neutral point of view" or "original research", and its use by the original editor is within Wikipedia guidelines. I will replace the term subversive in the article, and I will not submit to a spurious threat about "vandalism" to Wikipedia because an editor is not comfortable with these facts. Continued spurious removal of the term "subversive" is as I have already stated above. Burk Hale 17:12, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
The 1957 Georgia Memorial to Congress is Georgia Law:
Reference: Ga. Laws 1957, pp. 348-351.
Internet source: http://www.cviog.uga.edu/Projects/gainfo/1957.htm
The State of Georgia has the right to determine its position on ratification:
Judge A.H. Ellett, of the Utah Supreme Court, in Dyett v. Turner, 439 P2d 266 @ 269, 20 U2d 403 [1968], concluded:
... the States have the "textually demonstrable constitutional commitment of the issues" to determine the validity of the ratification votes cast on an Amendment", and ..."The authority to determine the validity of the votes cast in ratification of an Amendment are with the States..."
Reference: Judge A.H. Ellett (Dyett v. Turner, 439 P2d 266 @ 269, 20 U2d 403 [1968]):
Internet Source: http://www.rangeguide.net/illegal14thamendment.htm
Large City Newspaper (legal county organ as well) Editor confirms illegal attempt to ratify the so-called Fourteenth Amendment, and supports and verifies the 1957 Georgia Memorial to Congress:
Reference: The Chattanooga News Free Press - Editorial section, March 8, 1995
Internet Source: http://www.rangeguide.net/freepress.htm
(Editors may wish to consider the Constitution as a third party, published document that suppports Georgia's position. The third party verification above has been ignored and in some instances removed by editors.) Burk Hale 17:12, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
User Burk Hale is still re-adding blatantly false, unverifiable material. The beginning of the article currently reads as follows:
The first line, saying that the Georgia Memorial is a "law" is immediately followed a link to the Georgia Code criminal statute regarding "subversives." Nothing in that criminal statute says that the Memorial is a "law" or even mentions the Memorial.
Similarly, the last sentence says that the resolution was "added to Georgia law in 1957" -- and attempts to support that statement with a link, again, to the Georgia Code criminal statute on subversives, etc., which does not mention the Georgia Memorial or the Fourteenth Amendment at all.
These kinds of edits have already been discussed on this talk page. Wikipedia rules require Verifiability. That is, a statement in an article should be backed up by a source, and the statement in that source should actually stand for the proposition that is being promulgated in the article.
Further, the Wikipedia rule prohibiting original research means that we do not take proposition A from source A and combine it with proposition B from source B to formulate our own theory C.
The use of the language "so-called" is yet another example of blatant POV pushing on the part of Burk Hale.
Any comments, anyone? Famspear 02:24, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Dear fellow editors: I essentially agree with editor Edward321 in his April 10th comments regarding Burk Hale. Based on the conduct of user Burk Hale over several months, I conclude that Burk Hale intends to continue POV pushing, that he intends to continue inserting text with citations to sources that do not support his text (Verifiability problem), that he intends to continue inserting his own original research, and that he intends to continue refusing to accept Wikipedia consensus in this article, and probably in the article on Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution as well. Famspear 17:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Along with the text of the 1957 Georgia Memorial to Congress, below is a short overview about the memorial presently in the article that has been removed and abused by other editors (vandalized):
The 1957 Georgia Memorial to Congress is a law [18] enacted by the legislature of the state of Georgia declaring Georgia's legal position on the so-called 14th and 15th Amendments to the Constitution of the United States. The resolution was approved by the governor on March 8, 1957 and was added to Georgia Law in 1957 [19].
The law memorialized and urged the Congress of the United States to declare "that the so-called 14th and 15th Amendments to the Constitution of the United States are null and void and of no effect" [20] due to subversive [21] acts in violation of the Constitution of the United States and the constitutions of several states during the post- Civil War era.
Among the subversive acts noted in this law, Georgia declared that the subversive organization [22] pretending to act as Congress was unlawful, it overthrew the duly established governments of 11 states and established subversive organizations [23] that pretended to act as state governments merely to force un-Constitutional amendments upon all the states, and that the federal government cannot claim to be champions of Constitutional governments due to its failure to abide by the Constitution and its failure to protect the states from invasion.
Firstly - Famspear, or other editors, continue to remove the memorials text and the overview above. The main contention by Famspear and others is that the memorial is not Georgia Law, despite the verifiable fact that it is stated at the bottom of the page on the cite [24], Source: Ga. Laws 1957, pp. 348-351. Any legal library in Georgia will also verify this.
Secondly - Famspear, or other editors, continue to remove the overview of the memorial where the term "subversive" is used, despite the fact that the acts noted in the article are synonymous with the term subversive as defined by Georgia Law [25].
The Georgia Code states the following about "subversive":
16-11-4.
(a) As used in this Code section, the term: (1) "Organization" means any corporation, company, partnership, association, trust, foundation, fund, club, society, committee, political party, or any group of persons, whether or not incorporated, permanently or temporarily associated together for joint action or advancement of views on any subject. (2) "Subversive organization" means any organization which engages in or advocates, abets, advises, or teaches, or which has a purpose of engaging in or advocating, abetting, advising, or teaching activities intended to overthrow, to destroy, or to assist in the overthrow or destruction of the government of the state or of any political subdivision thereof by force or violence. (b) A person commits the offense of advocating the overthrow of the government if he knowingly and willfully commits any of the following acts: (1) Advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the state or any political subdivision thereof by force or violence; (2) Prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, exhibits, or displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the state or of any political subdivision thereof by force or violence; (3) Assists in the formation, participates in the management, or contributes to the support of any subversive organization, knowing the purpose thereof; (4) Becomes a member or continues to be a member of a subversive organization, knowing the purpose thereof; (5) Destroys any books, records, or files or secretes any funds in this state of a subversive organization, knowing the organization to be such; or (6) Conspires with one or more persons to commit any of the acts prohibited by this Code section. (c) A person convicted of violating any provision of this Code section shall be punished by a fine of not more than $20,000.00 or by imprisonment for not less than one nor more than 20 years, or both.
The law above was in place BEFORE the 1957 Georgia Memorial to Congress, and the memorial's detailed comments about subversive acts are synonymous with the definition of "subversive organization" in the Georgia Code), thus proving the claims of POV and original research as spurious.
The remainder of the article is precise and informative for readers, spurious claims otherwise notwithstanding. Again, in the overview above, there is no POV pushing or original research whatsoever, as spuriously claimed by other editors. The text of the memorial and the cites proves this fact.
I consider the removal of text to be hypocritical, especially when compared to the "protected" Wikipedia article about the so-called 14th Amendment that has its text included in the article, and extremely abusive and vandalistic. The same holds for the removal of the term "subversive" used in the overview. Burk Hale 13:03, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
From near the beginning, this article has been butchered by editors that do not want to see the facts presented in the 1957 Georgia Memorial to Congress. Verification with cites were provided, and then removed by editors. Everything possible has been thrown at the article to remove the painful facts that go against the POV of the editors adverse to my editing. What they do not want to see revealed in my article is continually removed, verification edited out. Readers and editors, are you getting the picture? Its so obvious. Burk Hale 13:53, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Dear Burk Hale: Just as a follow-up, regarding your comment above to editor Edward321:
The following "unidentifiable" editors (listed in no particular order) have found problems with your material in this article (based on the Wikipedia rules regarding Verifiability, Neutral POV, or No Original Research) since you began contributing in Wikipedia under your name on or about February 20, 2007:
Yes, most editors in Wikipedia do edit pseudonymously. But come on now: You're saying that two or more of these editors could be the same person using different user names -- just to build a "fabricated consensus" about your edits to this article? Please think about what you are saying. Famspear 17:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I think Burk Hale makes a decent, albeit badly articulated, point about the Memorial matching the criteria for "subversive" under the Georgia criminal code of that time. Maybe put in something along the lines of "The allegations contained in the Georgia Memorial would, if true, mean that the U.S. government was a subversive organization under the Georgia criminal code that was in place at the time the Memorial was written"...reason I think its notable is that the Georgia gov't might have been trying to put a subtle message into the text of the Memorial (again, I haven't looked up the Ga Code, but if the criteria fits, then I think its a notable point). 149.101.1.116 13:22, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
149.101.1.116 20:42, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Dear IP149.101.1.116: Here is the text of the statute in question from the Official Code of Georgia, title 16 (Crimes and Offenses), Chapter 11, Article 1, Part 1, section 16-11-4, entitled "Advocating overthrow of government". The provision states (in part):
This statute, along with the citation to the 1957 resolution (which, as already noted contained no language at all about "subversives"), was Burk Hale's "support" for his opinion that the 1957 resolution "asserts" something about the Federal government, etc., being a "subversive" organization. I believe he was saying that the Federal government, or whoever in the government was involved in the ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment, etc., was a "subversive organization" under section 16-11-4 of the Georgia Code. I'm sorry, but that is blatant soapboxing on Burk Hale's part, and it's prohibited under the rules of Wikipedia. To say that those involved in the political process of ratifying the post-civil war amendments -- as unfair or messy as that process may well have been -- were somehow literally guilty of "advocating the overthrow of government" and criminal "subversion" under the aforementioned Georgia Code provision (which for all we know did not even exist when the Post-Civil War Amendments were ratified) is laughable.
I would respectfully but completely disagree with your opinion that "if the language fits PERFECTLY into the criminal code of the time, then it would be worth mentioning" in the Wikipedia article. Even if the language were a perfect fit (which it is not), for us to make that comment in Wikipedia would still be original research. This was a personal, bizarre point of view that Burk Hale himself cooked up on his own, and tried to push into Wikipedia. If you haven't already, I would encourage you to read this entire discussion page from start to finish, and look at the related edits to the article back in the early part of the year, to see what I mean.
Wikipedia presents something of a moral challenge to those who discover they can make edits to an online encyclopedia that thousands or millions of people presumably read every day. The moral challenge for each user is: How does the user conform to the rules of "verifiability," "neutral point of view," and "no original research" -- that is, how does the user resist the temptation to push the user's own personal point of view? Many, many new users -- like Burk Hale -- simply do not rise to that challenge. Yours, Famspear 22:05, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
There is no need to repeat what I've already stated, as arguing with you is not my purpose in being here. But your continual personal attacks, obviously allowed by the moderators of this website, is going to be clearly noted again here, as follows -
I think that the open-minded, intelligent and honest people that have read all this can clearly see that "hostile majorities" removing elected officials in Congress and several states at bayonet point to supplant the duely elected representative and lawful government, and the clear language of Georgia's sedition act are quite adequate in making my point, as well as clarifying that I have not injected "original research" and other such abusive applications of Wikipedia's rules you have applied to ostracize and redicule me in a relentless effort to keep the third-party verifiable facts (that upset your anti-Constitution agenda against lawful State sovereignty) about this memorial off of Wikipedia.
But for the record, Famspear, making your complaint - "those involved in the political process of ratifying the post-civil war amendments -- as unfair or messy as that process may well have been -- were somehow literally guilty of "advocating the overthrow of government" and criminal "subversion" under the aforementioned Georgia Code provision (which for all we know did not even exist when the Post-Civil War Amendments were ratified) is laughable" - is not what I said, and is your feable attempt to twist it yet again.
The point is that Georgia's sedition act defines "subversive"; that Georgia's memorial petition (undisputed facts ACQUIESED in by the federal government due to NEVER having responded - legal maxims clearly state that if you do not deny the allegations of a valid petition and continue to acquiese that one effectively admits to the allegations - which in this case has been OVER 50 YEARS) clearly describes subversive activities as defined by their own law; and these are third-party verifiable facts that you cannot tolerate, and this results in your continunal attacks and spin-doctoring that perpetuates without warning from the moderators. Burk Hale 18:02, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
The following edits are being removed for NPOV and OR guideline violations:
"The Memorial, part of Georgia's "continuing battle for segregation,"[1] followed the Supreme Court's ruling in Brown v. Board of Education that the Fourteenth Amendment prohibits states from discriminating against racial minorities in public schools."
"Nevertheless, the consensus among legal scholars, including the Supreme Court, is that the Fourteenth and Fifteenth Amendments are valid." 64.18.118.178 16:15, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I wanted to discuss this before making the changes, but I believe that the reference in Footnote 4 to the Chattanooga Free Press needs to be removed for violating Notability and POV. The reference is to a fringe editorial that does not meet Wikipedia's requirements for a citable source. 70.21.89.54 20:56, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Dear IP70.21.89.54: Yes, but on your point 2, what the article says is that "[t]he events described in the memorial have been the subject of editorials in the Chattanooga Free Press" (bolding added by me for emphasis) -- and the text of the editorial is cited and linked as support for the statement that the editorial does indeed describe the events. I would argue that this part might be considered OK.
On your point 3, I don't have a strong view pro or con. On your point 1, I agree with your agreement with me. (Oh, big surprise, right?)
Therefore, if you decide to go ahead and delete the link to the rangeguide web page (and make any appropriate corresponding change to the text), I would say: go for it! Yours, Famspear 03:10, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
What is this southron crap doing on wikipedia? Faveuncle 02:41, 21 February 2007 (UTC)Faveuncle
Faveuncle, does this imply that Law enacted in Southern states is "crap" and not politically correct for Wikipedia? Your statement implies that. Burk Hale 02:50, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Is the dispute and NPOV due to the article being so controversial? Probably. It may be that those who wish to suppress the information about the 1957 Georgia Memorial is looking for excusses to suppress it from Wikipedia, and this is highly likely to be the case. Burk Hale 02:54, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
This article could perhaps be turned into something interesting. Right now, however, portions of it are written from a non-neutral point of view (the article spends a whole section attempting to "justify" the enactment, which is entirely inappropriate), portions are sourced to unreliable sources, and the article needs to be cleaned up for text formatting and wikificaiton. It needs a *lot* of work. · j e r s y k o talk · 02:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Where is the evidence supporting the spurious claims of the article being "non-neutral" NPOV? What sources are unreliable? The claims against this article are vague at best and need a *lot* of work. Burk Hale 03:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Should a section called "Controversy" be placed below the preview? Are actual documents at rangeguide.net such as the editorial from the Chattanooga Free Press, and clear evidence from other sources below Wikipedia standards? Please be specific. Burk Hale 03:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I've attempted to interact several times with fellow editors, and each time I post a comment, it gets erased due to new activity on the talk section. Burk Hale 03:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm now getting messages from Jersyko that I will be blocked from editing if I do not interact, even though I have made several attempts to do so. Burk Hale 03:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I am trying to interact civilly. Where am I going wrong? Please explain? Burk Hale 03:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
The article has been completely re-edited to remove supportive evidence. Burk Hale 03:41, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Someone keeps editing out the citations, so I have to keep editing them back in. It seems as if there is pointed effort to suppress the validity of the '57 Georgia Memorial. Burk Hale 04:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I've had to replace the citations several times, even again just now. Burk Hale 04:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I just noticed this (seems like this sort of thing pops up after I edit, without notice:
he article still contained point of view problems. Subsequent edits by a different editor fixed that. Please do not revert to the POV version again. · j e r s y k o talk · 04:18, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
What is the POV version, the one with the citations? Burk Hale
This statement: "the document reveals that the de facto government existing since these unlawful and illegal acts appears to be a subversive organization in contradistinction to the claim that the U.S. government is an example of representative government in the world", is what the document reveals. That is not an un-neutral statement. The document itself is NOT a neutral document. Is that the problem? Burk Hale 04:47, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Dear user Will: Your are picking at straws and appear to be looking for any reason to change what I've said. Please study up on petition and the other words noted below in "links removed". Burk Hale 06:10, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
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Dear Will: Let me clarify. I'm not talking about the policies of Wikipedia, as they are reasonable. I'm talking about the memorial. Burk Hale 06:27, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Why are we linking to original copies of acts the legislature of Colorado? Why are we linking to a video from the 1980s about the "secret government"? What do these have to do with the 1957 Georgia resolution? - Will Beback · † · 05:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Dear readers: for what it's worth, here is a portion of the text of the purported Resolution, as reprinted at one of the web sites linked in the article:
Copyright is claimed by the Carl Vinson Institute of Government of The University of Georgia. However, if this Resolution is indeed a government document, then I would assume no copyright exists as to the quoted text. In any case, the material is excerpted under the Fair Use Doctrine. Yours, Famspear 05:18, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I removed the following language:
This language in context is legally nonsensical. Where a state legislature passes a resolution asking for the U.S. Congress to do something, there is no such thing as a "default" and no such thing as an "admission by default."
By the way, I know of no procedure under the U.S. legal system whereby the Congress can simply declare previously ratified constituional amendments to be void merely because a state legislature asks the Congress to do such a thing. Yours, Famspear 05:27, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Dear readers: for what it's worth, the resolution was passed and approved on March 8, 1957. It is listed in the Georgia Code Annotated. When a resolution passes both houses and is signed by the governor (or president if a federal resolution), it becomes law. This particular resolution is a memorial, a form of petition. The federal government defaulted by not responding to the petition by taking action to declare the fraudulent amendments void or by responding to the government of Georgia. This will have continued for 50 years on March 8th of this year. When a memorial/petition/action remains unchallenged for decades, especially for 50 years, its import is sealed in stone, as it were, and even more force is applied to the action. FACT: The amendments were not ratified, and that is proven by the article. And, by the way, I know of no lawful procedure for a president to declare an un-ratified amendment as ratified. All the information noting this was on the previous version of the article and clearly explained it all, but I was forced to remove the verifying information. When a person or an entity fails to respond to an action, it called a default and is commonly accepted that such a default is the same as an admission. Maxims of Law clearly substantiate this.
I'm replacing this language: ::[ . . . ] and resulted in a default on behalf of the federal government which is commonly known as an admission by default [ . . . ]
... as it is supported my many maxims of law. Burk Hale 05:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Deat user Famspear: No need to apologize. In the previous article, wherein I was forced to comments regarding verifiability, I clearly showed court precendent (Utah Supreme Court) that stated that only a state itself has the right to determine if it has ratified an amendment. Georgia said that it had not ratified the subject amendments and that several others could not have due to the overthrow of the government documeted in the memorial and thusfar unrefuted for nearly 50 years. I suggest you study up on the terms DEFAULT, ACQUIESE and PETITION. Your reasoning is in error and wikipedia is not the place to despute a valid enactment of Georgia. Burk Hale 05:59, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Will, please feel free to provide evidence that the federal government responded to Georgia. An exhaustive search in Georgia has shown no evidence of a response whatsoever. You must understand that it is the LACK of any action that adversely affects the federal government, and supports Georgia's petition. Burk Hale 06:31, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Dear Burk Hale:
The Utah Supreme Court case you cited most certainly is not precedent for the argument that the Georgia Legislature, by passing a resolution in 1957, could somehow nullify amendments to the United States Constitution ratified after the Civil War. The Utah Supreme Court has never ruled any such thing. You may want to review the articles on Stare decisis and Precedent and Obiter dictum.
The statements that my "reasoning is in error" and that "wikipedia is not the place to despute [dispute] a valid enactment of Georgia" are examples of whistling past the cemetery, so to speak. Again, neither the State of Georgia nor any other state can "enact" something that legally nullifies a provision of the United States Constitution ratified many, many years before -- whether the Federal government were to "respond" to the state resolution or not.
The terms "default," "acquiesce," and "petition" all have various legal meanings in various legal contexts, none of which can be cobbled together to support your original research.
The statement that "You must understand that it is the LACK of any action that adversely affects the federal government, and supports Georgia's petition" is, for purposes of Wikipedia, both unverifiable and also prohibited original research -- aside from being blatantly incorrect from a legal standpoint. You are not going to find any reliable source of legal scholarship that asserts that the 1957 Georgia resolution and the subsequent lack of U.S. Government response have the legal effect you argue they have.
As editor Will Beback has stated, if you want to state, in a Wikipedia article, the things you want to say, you must have reliable sources that actually say those things. Wikipedia is not the place for your own original research in the form of your own conclusions about what things mean. Yours, Famspear 13:06, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Dear Burk Hale: Oh, and at the expense of appearing to beat a dead horse, let's look at the following language: "When a resolution passes both houses and is signed by the governor (or president if a federal resolution), it becomes law." Weeelllll, sometimes.
At the Federal level if both houses of Congress pass what is called a joint resolution that is intended to be a statute, and the President signs the joint resolution as prescribed in the Constitution, then it becomes a statute in the same way that a "bill" passed by Congress becomes a statute in that manner. There are other kinds of resolutions, however. There are also concurrent resolutions and simple resolutions. These generally are not sent to the President, and do not in and of themselves "make" laws.
As I recall, concurrent resolutions may be used, for example, to correct the text of a bill or joint resolution before the text is finalized and sent to the President. And simple resolutions are basically non-statutory resolutions passed by just one chamber (either House or Senate).
Regarding "resolutions" by the Georgia legislature, I suspect (without having researched this) that you have a somewhat similar situation: some types of resolutions may be intended to enact statutes, while others (like the one that is the subject of this article) are simply there to express a sense of the legislature, or to request action from the Federal government, and so on. By the way, I'm curious. You say that this particular resolution is found in the Georgia Code annotated. Can you provide the specific citation to the Georgia Code annotated? Is the citation in one of the links that was formerly in the article? (If so, can you tell me which link?) Yours, Famspear 18:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Whew! I removed tons of links that were only tangentially and tenuously related to the statements in the article. Videos and other materials that are only tangentially related to the subject matter of the article should not be appended to specific statements in the text unless the materials actually support the specific statement. Wikipedia articles are not supposed to be dumping grounds for these kinds of links. It is not necessary or appropriate, for example, to provide five or ten citations to the statement that "50 years" have passed since the resolution was promulgated. Most people can count from 1957 to 2007 and come up with the number of intervening years without recourse to all these citations. Yours, Famspear 05:44, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
All links that you removed should be discussed for the relevance before removed. What is it about the links that you feel were "tangentially and tenuously related"? Burk Hale 05:52, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Dear Famspear:
I pruned 90% of the article myself, removing all the comments the clearly explained everything for verafiability. I was forced to leave citations alone, without explanation. See where it got me? I saw it coming, and still could not avoid all this argument. I've spent 17 years lecturing about this document. You'd think I knew something about it. I'm exahusted to, and need to go visit my mother in the hospital tomorrow. I never imagined that I would get so much abuse here at Wikipedia, and that telling the truth on Wikipedia would require such gymnastics and hoop-jumping. Now I know, and it may be hopeless to share the truth on Wikipedia about this issue. Nevertheless, the truth remains on FIGJA's webpages sponsored by rangeguide.net, and it cannot be removed from there. Burk Hale 06:19, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Dear Will: Is Wikipedia limited to posting by those that fail to see the relevance of things, or those that do? Your failure to see the relevance of the Colorado legislation evidencing a pre-existing amendment that has been removed by the federal government, AND which verifies the facts of the memorial, AND a documentary on subversive activities of the federal government by a nationaly known commentator on PBS is not our problem. Please do your homework before you chastise someone that has? Burk Hale 06:24, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Dear Burk Hale: The beneficial, desperately needed pruning to which I am referring was, I believe, the work begun by Wikipedia editor Zantastic, here: [2]. Regarding tangential links, by the way, I want to point out that I and the other Wikipedia editors do not have a burden of proof to persuade you that the links do not belong in the article. The burden to support any particular text or link in a Wikipedia article is on the editor inserting that text or link. So your statement that "[a]ll links that you removed should be discussed for the relevance before [being] removed" is not correct. What I want to do, however, as time permits, is to work with you on improving the article. Yours, Famspear 15:33, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
The resolution claims that the 14th and 15th Amendments were ratified in such a way that the Southern states, including Georgia were not properly represented in the process. The resolution claims that this lack of representation violated the U.S. Constitution, thus the amendments were never properly ratified. The resolution calls on Congress to declare the amendments null because of the purported Constitutional violation (one wonders, however, why GA wouldn't have said the same about the 13th Amendment, though that's neither here nor there). This can all be found in and gleaned from the source text itself. [3] Nowhere does the text say that ratification of the Amendments constitutes an overthrow of the federal and confederate governments. Nowhere does the text say that the U.S. Government that has existed since the ratification of the amendments is a "subversive organization" or is no longer a representative government (rather, that at the time of the adoption of the amendments it was not representative; the text actually notes that the government today is a "champion of Constitutional governments"). Thanks. · j e r s y k o talk · 14:52, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
First, this experience with Wikipidea editors has been enlightening and revealing, enlightening in the fact that I have learned more about where some Americans stand on jurisprudence, where they fail to grasp its finer nuances when subtrafuge was not so popular in earlier Ameriacn Jurisprudence, and how political correctness plays such a powerful role in recording history. I settle for the good of this experience and remain amazed that the 1957 Georgia Memorial to Congress managed to remain on Wikipedia at all.
I could spend days providing citations supporting everything I've said. But much of it would have to be uploaded to a server and most likely by me, but it would then have me associated with it and thus not permissable on Wikipedia. Now I realize that internationally recognized Bill Moyers of the Public Broadcast System is just that, an internationally recognized reporter of the Public Broadcast System, but he clearly video documented subversive activities conducted by the U.S. government that were current with the period in which the memorial was enacted. Regarding other "filtered-out" citations, the Colorado citations that I provided, that showed photocopied evidence of the original 13th Amendment as a Constitutional Amendment in the Colorado code (there were other supportive documents verifying the original 13th Amendment found in the British Archives and other places that were overlooked in the antebellum and postbellum damage control conducted by the subversives in America), clearly shows that not only was there antebellum and postbellum subversion by those supporting federal control of ALL the several states (subverting states rights), it evidences the fact that the second so-called 13th Amendment was actually the 14th Amendment. This was not known by the Georgia Legislature at the time of the memorial, as it had been well hidden and suppressed by war and later by the terrorization of the Reconstruction Era, otherwise it may have been included in the memorial. Nevertheless, it supports the articles mention of subversion as it directly relates to subversion mentioned in the memorial. One only needs to look at the various reasons stated for the memorial by the Georgia Legislature and see that there was a concern for subverion of states rights again during a period of aggressive Marxist movement in America that played the race card in every hand.
For those that fail to see what I have said, having come from many years of research, you are welcome to attend my lectures, as I simply do not have time to devote to Wikipedia by arguing with editors forever and ever.
I'll leave you with these little tid-bits:
Georgian's were very clever with their memorial/petition. They knew that the federal government would arrogantly ignore the memorial/petition and that it caught the de facto "Congress" in a severe catch 22 situation. They knew that they would default on the petition. They knew that the de facto "Congress" could do nothing to "un-ratify" the purportedly "ratified" amendments that failed to get ratification from a representative government in each of required number among the several states. They knew that ratificaion was declared by Executive Order, and not because it was ratified in accordance with the Constitution. They knew that if the memorial/petition was properly addressed that a big can of worms would be opened.
And as expected, the federal government ignored it, and trusted in their overwhelming "bayonets", the fear they had worked so hard to instill for almost a century and the continual dumbing down of Americans by telling a false history fabricated by the victors again and again over time. But they gave Georgians a document that would endure for all time, a document that would grow more forceful with age (yes, there is such a thing as an "aged document", but do not expect modern "14th Amendment due process jural experts" to give it just due because it serves to indict them later).
However, they did not just send it to "Congress" (as certain biased editors here would have us believe). They also sent it to their own Congressional Representatives and Senators, AND The Chief Justice of the United States. The Chief Justice (and supreme Court [not mispelled]) could have ruled the Executive Orders as an abuse of Executive Powers. But be aware that it was properly sent to all parties, and all of them have no excuse to be ignorant of the facts the memorial stated once their ignorance was at a end. Their ignorance came to an end (maxim in parte), and from that point forward they were, and are, liable for any subversive acts, or any other acts, based on the fraudulent amendments. The present 140 year-old voting franchise is also a sham and a fraud, and thus all subsequent acts since the so-called "14th Amendment" are also a sham and a fraud without standing.
Also, when Congressmen and state legislators are unduly removed from their offices at bayonet point, that is subversion, and their is not squirming out of that fact. Anyone that tells you otherwise is biased. The memorial clearly shows that the People's representatives were subverted, and thus the People's government. The memorial shows that the U.S. government is not an example of representative government, and clearly states that fact.
Being that the 1957 Georgia Memorial to Congress was a petition in the form of a memorial, the facts stated in the memorial were not only for the benefit of those that it was addressed to, but a clear statement of Georgia's position on the matter. When it comes to ratification by a state, the ultimate authority in deciding the validity of the ratification is the state that does (or rejects) the ratification. I endeavored to cite this as well, but it was also "filtered-out".
Here is part of the original article's validation that I was forced to remove:
Judge A.H. Ellett, of the Utah Supreme Court, in Dyett v. Turner, 439 P2d 266 @ 269, 20 U2d 403 [1968], concluded:
... the States have the "textually demonstrable constitutional commitment of the issues" to determine the validity of the ratification votes cast on an Amendment", and ..."The authority to determine the validity of the votes cast in ratification of an Amendment are with the States..."
Reference: Judge A.H. Ellett (Dyett v. Turner, 439 P2d 266 @ 269, 20 U2d 403 [1968]):
Source: http://www.rangeguide.net/illegal14thamendment.htm
So, you see? Even the Utah Supreme Court "had a clue".
Georgia was declaring that the so-called 14th and 15th Amendments were invalidly enacted in accord with their commitments to the People, and their own conscience. Who, in 1957, was going to burn them at the stake like Cathars in the Inquisition? They dared the U.S. government to show their despotic hand or respond to the memorial.
Granted, the heat was on regarding regarding racial issues of the day, but it remains that when unlawful enactments are clearly declared invalid (or void due to unconstitutionality) that one must return to the previous Lawful enactments (maxim). And at this time of history, the subversive groups rooted in the federal government were ready to play the race card again, to their own agenda, while pretending to be taking a stand for a people claiming to be disenfranchised. Georgia simply noted that they had been previously disenfranchised and a NEW ORDER was franchised under the most dispicable circumstances, circumstances that pivoted directly on the so-called 14th and 15th Amendments purportedly enactmented and the coverup of the original 13th Amendment. The "de jure" train was derailed and never ever got back on track.
The main focus of the 14th Amendment was to subvert state governments across the board and create a new form of citizenship for those "under the jurisdiction" they created, most of which attaches on the contractual side of the Constitution that Ben Franklin warned about (Pandora's Box was opened). I wonder if any editor here "gets a clue" by considering why the subversives felt such need to go as far as they did to force the provisions of the so-called 14th Amendment. This editor found out why, and traced all the relating subversive activities over a 17 year period. The evidence is a severe indictment against the U.S. government and all those that knowingly and willingly support the despotism of U.S., Incorporated, an agent of the British Crown (which is a puppet government as well).
In closing, I may never find any evidence suitable for the modern "jurisprudence" that some of the editors here adhere to, despite the fact that the courts today are the epitome of injustice (a tragic joke) and are actually legislative tribunals and courts martial proceeding under color of law against civilians, a pretence of justice that began over 145 years ago with the so-called "Civil War" (what a misnomer).
So I am at a disadvantage here on Wikipedia, and I'm noting a sense of futility in ever seeing the full import of the 1957 Georgia Memorial to Congress being allowed to be documented in the article. Burk Hale 22:14, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for making my points. Burk Hale 22:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I've edited my original article, replaced certain citations (to meet Wikipedia verifiability requirements) and specifically focused on what the 1957 Georgia memorial makes notable, listing the specific points it makes (since its actual text is not allowed to be posted). The new edit totally leaves out any potential Wikipedia violations. The citations are verifiable and reputable citations from notable news reporting sources, congressional records and codified law, with the addition of certain written reference citations that are not on the internet for your own verification in your local legal or public library or contacting the respective news sources for copies at your own expense. I have already provided a great deal of imformation at my own expense regarding this this article initiated be me.
But what is more important, since there has been a recent motion to delete the article for lack of notable value, is the focus on all the extremely controversial and notable points that makes the memorial unlike any legislation ever enacted by a state addressing the subversion of the federal government in defense of the Constitution and States Rights. Deletion of any of the new edited article gives rise to bias against the articles notable contribution to Wikipedia. Burk Hale 02:56, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Jersey - I'll examine this and make the appropriate corrections. The US NEWS & World Report article posted by the Constitution Society is available to the general public, and so is the cite from the Chattanooga Free Press, which is photocopied. If NPOV applies here, then it must apply to all citations by the SPLC and other similar non-neutral organizations used on Wikipedia IN GOOD FAITH. But, they do "appear" to be views similar to the memorial itself.. Both news sources are verifiable. I'll add the word purported to the introductory paragraph. The resolution is published in the Acts of Georgia, and is an "act" not merely a resolution. All resolutions that are approved become acts. I wish to note that you deleted a significant amount of my re-edited article that was in compliance. Burk Hale 04:08, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Jersey - The articles do "appear" to be NPOV as much as the memorial itself, but since an issue of NON_NOTABILITY has been raised about the memorial and the article in regards to deletion of the article, it would stand to reason that its notability be verified by news reporting that adds credit to the notable aspects of the article that has been questioned. I'd like to note the the very first comment on this discussion was purely biased and argument. Thanks for the perspective and editorial observations. Burk Hale 04:31, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Jersey - You said "These point of view problems persist throughout your edit." You stand corrected. This is a broad brush that leads me to believe that you meant all that I re-edited (especially since you deleted everything I wrote). Further, POV of the memorial itself is not editorial POV, but the facts about what the memorial is addressing, and my editing points out the facts about the memorial and what it is saying. You also said, regarding the sources, "referencing articles that are unavailable to the general public is generally discouraged, such as the lexis articles), but they still do not adhere to neutral point of view." You stand corrected again when you state, "The issue is not the POV of the sources..". Your comments are not a little confusing and misleading. Burk Hale 04:49, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Jersey - I assume you now wish to be specific, now, about the lexis source, which is not an article as you claimed, but publicly accessible Internet source for the actual Georgia Code Annotated regarding the Subversive Activities Act. Burk Hale 04:56, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Aside from the POV problems, which I still contend are contained in the edit, the edit introduced a large amount of poor writing and wording into the article and uses an improper referencing style. Unlike before the edit, the article now needs a major cleanup. Tagging as such. · j e r s y k o talk · 14:44, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I just saw the latest NPOV banner on the article. What's that about? There are no biased POV comments in the article, just a clear and concise article on what the memorial says, with no biased opinions and non-verifiable citations. The NPOV claim has no standing. It appears that the non-neutral content of the 1957 Georgia Memorial to Congress itself, and the article's unbiased reporting on the memorial, with verifiable citations (without quoting the actual text of the document), is causing the NPOV banner to be placed on the article? Is that correct? Did I miss a straw someone is grasping for? I also notice that the delete banner is still on the article as well. Pray tell, is this article doomed to censorship no matter how well it complies with Wikipedia? Burk Hale 05:44, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
No NPOV issues specified. Removing NPOV. Burk Hale 05:49, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
In an effort to gauge consensus from the wider community on this point, I have started an RFC on this article. The relevant disputes are discussed at some length in the above threads. To summarize:
· j e r s y k o talk · 15:00, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
The 1957 Georgia Memorial might have some historical significance, which is why a Wikipedia article on it might be beneficial. As explained elsewhere in this talk page, however, the Memorial has essentially no legal significance. The 1957 Georgia Memorial has no legal effect on the United States Constitution, including any amendments thereto.
If it is ultimately decided by Wikipedia consensus that the fringe argument -- that the Memorial does somehow affect the 14th and 15th Amendments -- should be mentioned in a Wikipedia article, neutral point of view would require that we also disclose (if such is the case) that no court has ruled the 14th and 15th amendments to be invalid, etc. (whether based on the "Georgia Memorial" argument or any other argument).
Many fringe arguments, however, do not warrant inclusion in Wikipedia at all. In this context please note:
Yours, Famspear 15:23, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I am new to this dispute, having arrived here via the RFC. I have nothing against the concept of expanding the article beyond a stub by describing the document in more detail. However, the changes made to this article violate Wikipedia standards of style, quality and neutrality. It clearly reflects an attempt by the editor to push his point of view, in violation of WP:NPOV. In addition, the Chattanooga Free Press article User:Burk Hale cites says that the person who was pushing this issue in 1995 was none other than Burk Elder Hale III. That means the user is presumably also violating WP:NOR. I believe all changes by User:Burk Hale should be reverted and replaced with a neutrally written, Wikipedia-style-compliant expansion of the document summary. In fact, I'm going to do that right now. -- Mwalcoff 03:35, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I concur with editor Mwalcoff. Yours, Famspear 05:08, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I tried to improve the article, but found limited information that could be used to do so. For one, the "memorial" itself says little more than that the amendments are invalid because the Southern states were excluded from Congress and because the Reconstruction state governments that ratified them were not legitimate authorities. So there's not much more we can say about the document. And about the only websites that mention the memorial are Wikipedia mirrors and Hale's own pages. So my recommendation is that we go back to the stub version. -- Mwalcoff 23:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Dear Burk Hale: As explained elsewhere on this talk page, editor Mwalcoff's omission of the contention that the "memorial states the position of Georgia that the government of the United States was overthrown by subversives" is entirely appropriate, as the memorial does not state that the government of the United States was overthrown by subversives. The references to "subversives" that had been placed in the article were put there by one or more contributors to Wikipedia (I haven't yet checked to see who did it). The terms "subversive" and "subversive organizations" do not even appear in the text of the 1957 document. Insertion of the language regarding "subversives" left an incorrect impression in the article -- as does your comment to editor Mwalcoff above.
Statements like:
and:
--are not doing much to bolster your arguments about the text of the article. Yours, Famspear 22:22, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Dear fellow editors: Just to be clear, the language at the bottom of that 20 February 2007 Burk Hale edit states (in part):
Yours, Famspear 22:44, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
While the discussion above continues (regarding which version of this article should be developed), I went ahead and simplified the citation to the University of Georgia web site where the 1957 Memorial is posted. First, I removed the duplicated links, and just put one link at the end of the list. This should be sufficient to clearly show that all the material is being sourced to the 1957 Memorial itself (except where other links appear in the list, of course). Second, I changed the link itself so that the reader goes straight to the document. As previously posted, the link took you to a page at the University website that consisted of a list of various documents, and you then had to locate the link for the 1957 Memorial and click on it. I've just saved everybody a step. Yours, Famspear 20:43, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
OK, I have now completely re-written the list of contentions by reading the actual text of the 1957 Georgia Memorial (the resolution). This hopefully will reduce some of the POV, verifiability, and original research problems.
As previously written, the material included repeated references to "subversive organizations," and what not, with citation to Georgia statutory provisions on that. The terms "subversive" and "subversive organizations" are not even found in the text of the 1957 Georgia Memorial. The references to "subversives" were classic examples of spin -- original research, and especially unverifiable (not supported by the actual material that was being linked, which was the actual text of the Memorial). Yours, Famspear 21:06, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Now I have put the long list of citations at the bottom of the article into a footnote that ties directly to the place in the text where the related contention is made -- that various states actually rejected the proposed amendment or amendments. From my perspective the material looks better in a footnote and makes the article look a bit more like Wikipedia. Any comments? Yours, Famspear 21:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
PS - To see where we are, compare the current version to this: [9] Yours, Famspear 21:36, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Post-script: Oh, sometimes I just can't stop! I have to point out that the link that had been provided in the article to the Georgia statutes, which had nothing to do with the 1957 resolution, was to the Official Code of Georgia, title 16 (Crimes and Offenses), Chapter 11, Article 1, Part 1, section 16-11-4, entitled "Advocating overthrow of government". That provision states (in part):
This, along with the citation to the 1957 resolution (which, as already noted contained no language at all about "subversives"), was Burk Hale's support for his verbiage in the article to the effect that the 1957 resolution "asserts" something about the Federal government, etc., being a "subversive" organization. Yours, Famspear 23:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
On 21 February 2007 (Feb. 20, U.S. central time), Burk Hale inserted the following verbiage on this talk page:
At one point I asked Burk Hale [12] for a citation so that we could find the Memorial "listed" in the Georgia Code Annotated. At this point (early Saturday morning, March 3, 2007, US central time) no response has been provided. As noted above, he did at one point cite to the Georgia Code, but that citation was provided for the text of the "subversive organization" criminal statute quoted above, not for the 1957 resolution. The Georgia criminal statute and the 1957 Georgia resolution are two completely different things.
As noted above, some resolutions are "the law" -- and others are not. Contrary to the implication by Burk Hale, the mere fact that a particular resolution passes both houses and is signed by the governor, the President, etc., does not necessarily make that resolution "a law" (for Congressional resolutions, for example, see my discussion on this talk page regarding joint resolutions, concurrent resolutions, and simple resolutions). As of now, user Burk Hale has not provided any citation for his proposition that the 1957 Memorial is the law in Georgia or anywhere else, or that the resolution "is listed in the Georgia Code Annotated." Yours, Famspear 14:49, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
As noted, so much has been deleted, and massaged with "politically correct" handling, it is amazing that the article has remained here at all. I'm not here to argue, just share the facts about the one of the most controversial and notable pieces of state legislation on the books. I have better things to do than waste time arguing with those that refuse to see what this document clearly says. If one is resticted from quoting the exacty text, and must write about it in the form of an article, one should be allowed to state what is "says", not what it "states".
If anyone wants to pick up a copy of the book, Acts of Georgia - 1957, at any legal library in Georgia, one will readily see the 1957 Georgia Memorial to Congress there. It is a fact that a joint resolution signed by the chief executive officer becomes law. Check with the Library of Congress for your own verification. It is an Act, PERIOD.
For anyone with a measure of intelligence that reads Georgia's 1953 Sedition and Subversive Activities Act, codified before 1957 (hello?), one will clearly see that the un-Constitutional overthrowing of governments is SUBVERSIVE. That appears to agitate some editors here who are not willing to see the FACTS. They do not want to see the word "subversive" being used in connection with the de facto U.S government, even if the de facto U.S. government has not denied it for over 50 years.
In closing, politically correct editing will no-doubt continue to "soften" and "politically correct" this article, maybe to the point of it being deleted altogether, and keep it in question to subvert its relevance and notariety. Burk Hale 19:17, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
The 1957 Georgia Memorial to Congress notes "subversive" acts. Georgia code defines "subversive". The terms usage in the article is not an "un-verifiable" opinion, a "non-neutral point of view" or "original research", and its use by the original editor is within Wikipedia guidelines. I will replace the term subversive in the article, and I will not submit to a spurious threat about "vandalism" to Wikipedia because an editor is not comfortable with these facts. Continued spurious removal of the term "subversive" is as I have already stated above. Burk Hale 17:12, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
The 1957 Georgia Memorial to Congress is Georgia Law:
Reference: Ga. Laws 1957, pp. 348-351.
Internet source: http://www.cviog.uga.edu/Projects/gainfo/1957.htm
The State of Georgia has the right to determine its position on ratification:
Judge A.H. Ellett, of the Utah Supreme Court, in Dyett v. Turner, 439 P2d 266 @ 269, 20 U2d 403 [1968], concluded:
... the States have the "textually demonstrable constitutional commitment of the issues" to determine the validity of the ratification votes cast on an Amendment", and ..."The authority to determine the validity of the votes cast in ratification of an Amendment are with the States..."
Reference: Judge A.H. Ellett (Dyett v. Turner, 439 P2d 266 @ 269, 20 U2d 403 [1968]):
Internet Source: http://www.rangeguide.net/illegal14thamendment.htm
Large City Newspaper (legal county organ as well) Editor confirms illegal attempt to ratify the so-called Fourteenth Amendment, and supports and verifies the 1957 Georgia Memorial to Congress:
Reference: The Chattanooga News Free Press - Editorial section, March 8, 1995
Internet Source: http://www.rangeguide.net/freepress.htm
(Editors may wish to consider the Constitution as a third party, published document that suppports Georgia's position. The third party verification above has been ignored and in some instances removed by editors.) Burk Hale 17:12, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
User Burk Hale is still re-adding blatantly false, unverifiable material. The beginning of the article currently reads as follows:
The first line, saying that the Georgia Memorial is a "law" is immediately followed a link to the Georgia Code criminal statute regarding "subversives." Nothing in that criminal statute says that the Memorial is a "law" or even mentions the Memorial.
Similarly, the last sentence says that the resolution was "added to Georgia law in 1957" -- and attempts to support that statement with a link, again, to the Georgia Code criminal statute on subversives, etc., which does not mention the Georgia Memorial or the Fourteenth Amendment at all.
These kinds of edits have already been discussed on this talk page. Wikipedia rules require Verifiability. That is, a statement in an article should be backed up by a source, and the statement in that source should actually stand for the proposition that is being promulgated in the article.
Further, the Wikipedia rule prohibiting original research means that we do not take proposition A from source A and combine it with proposition B from source B to formulate our own theory C.
The use of the language "so-called" is yet another example of blatant POV pushing on the part of Burk Hale.
Any comments, anyone? Famspear 02:24, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Dear fellow editors: I essentially agree with editor Edward321 in his April 10th comments regarding Burk Hale. Based on the conduct of user Burk Hale over several months, I conclude that Burk Hale intends to continue POV pushing, that he intends to continue inserting text with citations to sources that do not support his text (Verifiability problem), that he intends to continue inserting his own original research, and that he intends to continue refusing to accept Wikipedia consensus in this article, and probably in the article on Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution as well. Famspear 17:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Along with the text of the 1957 Georgia Memorial to Congress, below is a short overview about the memorial presently in the article that has been removed and abused by other editors (vandalized):
The 1957 Georgia Memorial to Congress is a law [18] enacted by the legislature of the state of Georgia declaring Georgia's legal position on the so-called 14th and 15th Amendments to the Constitution of the United States. The resolution was approved by the governor on March 8, 1957 and was added to Georgia Law in 1957 [19].
The law memorialized and urged the Congress of the United States to declare "that the so-called 14th and 15th Amendments to the Constitution of the United States are null and void and of no effect" [20] due to subversive [21] acts in violation of the Constitution of the United States and the constitutions of several states during the post- Civil War era.
Among the subversive acts noted in this law, Georgia declared that the subversive organization [22] pretending to act as Congress was unlawful, it overthrew the duly established governments of 11 states and established subversive organizations [23] that pretended to act as state governments merely to force un-Constitutional amendments upon all the states, and that the federal government cannot claim to be champions of Constitutional governments due to its failure to abide by the Constitution and its failure to protect the states from invasion.
Firstly - Famspear, or other editors, continue to remove the memorials text and the overview above. The main contention by Famspear and others is that the memorial is not Georgia Law, despite the verifiable fact that it is stated at the bottom of the page on the cite [24], Source: Ga. Laws 1957, pp. 348-351. Any legal library in Georgia will also verify this.
Secondly - Famspear, or other editors, continue to remove the overview of the memorial where the term "subversive" is used, despite the fact that the acts noted in the article are synonymous with the term subversive as defined by Georgia Law [25].
The Georgia Code states the following about "subversive":
16-11-4.
(a) As used in this Code section, the term: (1) "Organization" means any corporation, company, partnership, association, trust, foundation, fund, club, society, committee, political party, or any group of persons, whether or not incorporated, permanently or temporarily associated together for joint action or advancement of views on any subject. (2) "Subversive organization" means any organization which engages in or advocates, abets, advises, or teaches, or which has a purpose of engaging in or advocating, abetting, advising, or teaching activities intended to overthrow, to destroy, or to assist in the overthrow or destruction of the government of the state or of any political subdivision thereof by force or violence. (b) A person commits the offense of advocating the overthrow of the government if he knowingly and willfully commits any of the following acts: (1) Advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the state or any political subdivision thereof by force or violence; (2) Prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, exhibits, or displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the state or of any political subdivision thereof by force or violence; (3) Assists in the formation, participates in the management, or contributes to the support of any subversive organization, knowing the purpose thereof; (4) Becomes a member or continues to be a member of a subversive organization, knowing the purpose thereof; (5) Destroys any books, records, or files or secretes any funds in this state of a subversive organization, knowing the organization to be such; or (6) Conspires with one or more persons to commit any of the acts prohibited by this Code section. (c) A person convicted of violating any provision of this Code section shall be punished by a fine of not more than $20,000.00 or by imprisonment for not less than one nor more than 20 years, or both.
The law above was in place BEFORE the 1957 Georgia Memorial to Congress, and the memorial's detailed comments about subversive acts are synonymous with the definition of "subversive organization" in the Georgia Code), thus proving the claims of POV and original research as spurious.
The remainder of the article is precise and informative for readers, spurious claims otherwise notwithstanding. Again, in the overview above, there is no POV pushing or original research whatsoever, as spuriously claimed by other editors. The text of the memorial and the cites proves this fact.
I consider the removal of text to be hypocritical, especially when compared to the "protected" Wikipedia article about the so-called 14th Amendment that has its text included in the article, and extremely abusive and vandalistic. The same holds for the removal of the term "subversive" used in the overview. Burk Hale 13:03, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
From near the beginning, this article has been butchered by editors that do not want to see the facts presented in the 1957 Georgia Memorial to Congress. Verification with cites were provided, and then removed by editors. Everything possible has been thrown at the article to remove the painful facts that go against the POV of the editors adverse to my editing. What they do not want to see revealed in my article is continually removed, verification edited out. Readers and editors, are you getting the picture? Its so obvious. Burk Hale 13:53, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Dear Burk Hale: Just as a follow-up, regarding your comment above to editor Edward321:
The following "unidentifiable" editors (listed in no particular order) have found problems with your material in this article (based on the Wikipedia rules regarding Verifiability, Neutral POV, or No Original Research) since you began contributing in Wikipedia under your name on or about February 20, 2007:
Yes, most editors in Wikipedia do edit pseudonymously. But come on now: You're saying that two or more of these editors could be the same person using different user names -- just to build a "fabricated consensus" about your edits to this article? Please think about what you are saying. Famspear 17:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I think Burk Hale makes a decent, albeit badly articulated, point about the Memorial matching the criteria for "subversive" under the Georgia criminal code of that time. Maybe put in something along the lines of "The allegations contained in the Georgia Memorial would, if true, mean that the U.S. government was a subversive organization under the Georgia criminal code that was in place at the time the Memorial was written"...reason I think its notable is that the Georgia gov't might have been trying to put a subtle message into the text of the Memorial (again, I haven't looked up the Ga Code, but if the criteria fits, then I think its a notable point). 149.101.1.116 13:22, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
149.101.1.116 20:42, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Dear IP149.101.1.116: Here is the text of the statute in question from the Official Code of Georgia, title 16 (Crimes and Offenses), Chapter 11, Article 1, Part 1, section 16-11-4, entitled "Advocating overthrow of government". The provision states (in part):
This statute, along with the citation to the 1957 resolution (which, as already noted contained no language at all about "subversives"), was Burk Hale's "support" for his opinion that the 1957 resolution "asserts" something about the Federal government, etc., being a "subversive" organization. I believe he was saying that the Federal government, or whoever in the government was involved in the ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment, etc., was a "subversive organization" under section 16-11-4 of the Georgia Code. I'm sorry, but that is blatant soapboxing on Burk Hale's part, and it's prohibited under the rules of Wikipedia. To say that those involved in the political process of ratifying the post-civil war amendments -- as unfair or messy as that process may well have been -- were somehow literally guilty of "advocating the overthrow of government" and criminal "subversion" under the aforementioned Georgia Code provision (which for all we know did not even exist when the Post-Civil War Amendments were ratified) is laughable.
I would respectfully but completely disagree with your opinion that "if the language fits PERFECTLY into the criminal code of the time, then it would be worth mentioning" in the Wikipedia article. Even if the language were a perfect fit (which it is not), for us to make that comment in Wikipedia would still be original research. This was a personal, bizarre point of view that Burk Hale himself cooked up on his own, and tried to push into Wikipedia. If you haven't already, I would encourage you to read this entire discussion page from start to finish, and look at the related edits to the article back in the early part of the year, to see what I mean.
Wikipedia presents something of a moral challenge to those who discover they can make edits to an online encyclopedia that thousands or millions of people presumably read every day. The moral challenge for each user is: How does the user conform to the rules of "verifiability," "neutral point of view," and "no original research" -- that is, how does the user resist the temptation to push the user's own personal point of view? Many, many new users -- like Burk Hale -- simply do not rise to that challenge. Yours, Famspear 22:05, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
There is no need to repeat what I've already stated, as arguing with you is not my purpose in being here. But your continual personal attacks, obviously allowed by the moderators of this website, is going to be clearly noted again here, as follows -
I think that the open-minded, intelligent and honest people that have read all this can clearly see that "hostile majorities" removing elected officials in Congress and several states at bayonet point to supplant the duely elected representative and lawful government, and the clear language of Georgia's sedition act are quite adequate in making my point, as well as clarifying that I have not injected "original research" and other such abusive applications of Wikipedia's rules you have applied to ostracize and redicule me in a relentless effort to keep the third-party verifiable facts (that upset your anti-Constitution agenda against lawful State sovereignty) about this memorial off of Wikipedia.
But for the record, Famspear, making your complaint - "those involved in the political process of ratifying the post-civil war amendments -- as unfair or messy as that process may well have been -- were somehow literally guilty of "advocating the overthrow of government" and criminal "subversion" under the aforementioned Georgia Code provision (which for all we know did not even exist when the Post-Civil War Amendments were ratified) is laughable" - is not what I said, and is your feable attempt to twist it yet again.
The point is that Georgia's sedition act defines "subversive"; that Georgia's memorial petition (undisputed facts ACQUIESED in by the federal government due to NEVER having responded - legal maxims clearly state that if you do not deny the allegations of a valid petition and continue to acquiese that one effectively admits to the allegations - which in this case has been OVER 50 YEARS) clearly describes subversive activities as defined by their own law; and these are third-party verifiable facts that you cannot tolerate, and this results in your continunal attacks and spin-doctoring that perpetuates without warning from the moderators. Burk Hale 18:02, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
The following edits are being removed for NPOV and OR guideline violations:
"The Memorial, part of Georgia's "continuing battle for segregation,"[1] followed the Supreme Court's ruling in Brown v. Board of Education that the Fourteenth Amendment prohibits states from discriminating against racial minorities in public schools."
"Nevertheless, the consensus among legal scholars, including the Supreme Court, is that the Fourteenth and Fifteenth Amendments are valid." 64.18.118.178 16:15, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I wanted to discuss this before making the changes, but I believe that the reference in Footnote 4 to the Chattanooga Free Press needs to be removed for violating Notability and POV. The reference is to a fringe editorial that does not meet Wikipedia's requirements for a citable source. 70.21.89.54 20:56, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Dear IP70.21.89.54: Yes, but on your point 2, what the article says is that "[t]he events described in the memorial have been the subject of editorials in the Chattanooga Free Press" (bolding added by me for emphasis) -- and the text of the editorial is cited and linked as support for the statement that the editorial does indeed describe the events. I would argue that this part might be considered OK.
On your point 3, I don't have a strong view pro or con. On your point 1, I agree with your agreement with me. (Oh, big surprise, right?)
Therefore, if you decide to go ahead and delete the link to the rangeguide web page (and make any appropriate corresponding change to the text), I would say: go for it! Yours, Famspear 03:10, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
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