This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
1942 Design Light Fleet Carrier article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
An exeptionally unclear article. I have tidied it a bit, however, I am no expert on the Royal Navy, and can only do so much. Have we any knowledgeable fans of Her Majesties fleet on hand? Crocodilicus 23:12, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Avast! Crocodilicus 04:09, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
The article states that the Royal Navy had escort carriers at the start of the War World II, which is to say September 1939. However, the first examples didn't appear until 1941, when HMS Audacity (D10) enter service. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrew381968 ( talk • contribs) 20:44, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
Over the past few years, I've been chipping away at a rewrite of the articles on the Colossus class aircraft carrier and the Majestic class aircraft carrier. Fairly early on, I realised that these two classes are so closely related, it would be eaiser to deal with both vessels in a unified article (which I've drafted at User:Saberwyn/Colossus-Majestic class carrier). To this end, I propose that the articles be merged together into a new article, provisionally titled British Light Fleet Carrier.
Reasons are:
In a separate but related proposal, I would like to suggest that HMS Leviathan (R97) be merged into the new article (or the Majestic class article if the above merge doesn't go ahead. Because Leviathan was never completed and was taken apart for spares and scrap, its unlikely that the article will expand very much, and all of the relevant content could be encompassed here. -- saberwyn 02:58, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm really surprised that this article doesn't reference Friedman's magisterial book on British Carrier Aviation as it extensively covers the requirement and design process.-- Sturmvogel 66 ( talk) 01:49, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Copied from User talk:Fry1989
You have been placing Royal Navy ensigns against the Majestic class carrier article info boxes. Please stop this. None of the Majestics were ever commissioned into the Royal Navy. - Nick Thorne talk 00:22, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- According to Majestic Class Carier, yes that class actually HAS been commissioned by the Royal Navy. Second, you do realize the Royal Navy's white ensign was used by the Australian, Canadian, New Zealand and Indian Navies until the 60s right? So even if the ship wasn't in the UK navy, if it was in one of the navies above, it used the white ensign. Third, I go by the "Ship Career" section of the infobox when I add an ensign, so I don't make mistakes. If it says the ship was used by a certain navy at a certain period of time, I add the correct ensign. If you can find a mistake, feel free to list it here, and I will correct it. Fry1989 eh? 00:27, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Re-read that article. It quite clearly states than none of the Majestics saw service in the Royal Navy. The ships in that article that were commissioned into the RN were all Colossus class. Adding the Royal Navy's ensign to these articles is misleading. - Nick Thorne talk 00:37, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- If the Ship's article says "Career (United Kingdom)" in the infobox of that ship, then either it was in the Royal Navy despite what you say, or that's a mistake with the article itself, not me. I go by what the infobox says. Fry1989 eh? 00:39, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- But none of the Majestic ships' articles have a "Career (United Kingom)" section in their info boxes because none of them had a career in the RN. - Nick Thorne talk 00:44, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Either we are not looking at the same "Majestic Class", or you're wrong. This is a list of ships in that class. Looking at their articles, HMS Venerable served 3 years in the Royal Navy, HMS Theseus served two, and several others on that list also appear to have served the Royal Navy. The only other "Majestic Class" I can find on Wikipedia is the Majestic Class battleship, but that class also served the Royal Navy. Fry1989 eh? 00:49, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Fry, I request that you take the time to read the articles you are flagging andor referring to. Also, please do not assume that all ships within a ship class saw service in the same navy. In this instance, the class article you are referring to is 1942 Design Light Fleet Carrier. This design incorporated two classes, the Colossus class, and the slightly upgraded Majestic class (as stated in the lead, the "Design and construction" section, and the list of ships). All of the Colossus class ships served in the Royal Navy. None of the Majestic class did. -- saberwyn 01:08, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- (Edit conflict) Both Venerable and Theseus were Colossus class. If you actually had a look at their articles, as you put it, you would see this. If you don't know anything about a subject you might be better advised to learn a little before you start making edits to it. - Nick Thorne talk 01:11, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- As I already said, I go by the infobox on the individual ship's article. I do not group all ships in a class together, nor am I going through these ships class by class. If the individual ship's article says that the ship in question served in a particular navy, either it did, or that is a mistake with the article. So far, neither of you have pointed out a specific ship where I added the white ensign, that did not serve the Royal Navy (or the Australian, Canadian or New Zealand Navies before the 60s when they also used the white ensign of the United Kingdom). Do that, and we'll talk. Fry1989 eh? 01:14, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Nick Thorne, since you want to act like I'm editing something I know nothing about, let me now educate you. I added the white ensign to the HMAS Sydney (which was Majestic-class). You removed that white ensign under the edit summary "Sydney never commissioned into the RN". What you clearly didn't pay attention to was that the HMAS Sydney was commissioned by the Royal Australian Navy in 1948, and again in 1962. From 1911 to 1967, the Royal Australin Navy used the White Ensign of the United Kingdom. Not until 1968 did Australia adopt a unique white ensign based on the Australian national flag. So since the ship served from 1948 to 1958, and then 1962 to 1973, it flew under first the UK White Ensign and then the Australian White Ensign, and I was right in adding the UK white ensign. So educate yourself before you try and claim IDK what I'm doing. Fry1989 eh? 01:22, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict) HMAS Sydney (R17) and HMAS Melbourne (R21). These ships, at no time, served or were commissioned into the British Royal Navy (at least, according to A- and FA- class articles, and all of the works that I've read on them to assemble the articles). At their commissionings (1948 and 1955 respectively), the carriers were commiisioned under the Australian White Ensign. From 1913 to 1967, the Royal Australian Navy used a flag that was identical to, but not was the British White Ensign (hence, possible confusion), at which point a unique flag was implemented. As I understand it, the policy for ship infoboxes is to only use the last flown version of a ensign for the relevant career infobox. As the 1967 version of the RAN White Ensign replaced the 1913 version of the RAN White Ensign, the article of any RAN ship operating post 1967 should use only the 1967 version of the flag. I cannot speak for the Canadians, Indians, or Kiwis, but assume similar circumstances for these navies. -- saberwyn 01:31, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Exactly, it was identical to (and therefore there was no distinction) the Royal Navy's white ensign. Infact, the Admiralty was the one that initially forced the RAN, RCN and RNZN to use the White Ensign of the Royal Navy, with only the naval jack (being the national flag) as distinction between the four Navies. So these ships didn't have to serve the Royal Navy to fly the white ensign, they simply had to serve the Australian, Canadian or New Zealand navies before the 60s. As for your understanding of the policy to only include the most recently flown ensign, I've not read that, and I've seen many ship infoboxes which did not follow this, such as the SAS Somerset. So far, I'm completely vindicated in adding the UK white ensign to the Sydney and the Melbourne. Fry1989 eh? 01:35, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
You need to read [[WP:BRD| WP:BRD]]. You were bold and made a change. I have reverted that change and now we are in the discussion phase. I propose that we move this discsussion to [[Talk:1942 Design Light Fleet Carrier| Talk:1942 Design Light Fleet Carrier]] and until a clear consensus has been established for your proposed change you should refrain from making it again. In fact I will copy this discussion there now. - Nick Thorne talk 01:47, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
There's a recently created substub at INS Vikram (R13) claiming that Leviathan was to be sold to the Indian Navy and completed to match Hercules/INS Vikrant. Does anyone have anything that can confirm or deny this? Either way, what should be done about the article? (personally in favour of merge redirect here like the Leviathan article unless there's enough sourced content to support a standalone article, which should be under the Leviathan name). -- saberwyn 14:04, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
@ Ser Amantio di Nicolao: I was curious as to why you tagged the article for Canadian English? Per WP:TIES, the topic is clearly British, in my opinion, as they designed the ships, and used more than any other user. Was this a mistake, or did you have a particular reason, such as something in the article's history? I didn't want to change it without asking first. Thanks. BilCat ( talk) 22:48, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
1942 Design Light Fleet Carrier article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
An exeptionally unclear article. I have tidied it a bit, however, I am no expert on the Royal Navy, and can only do so much. Have we any knowledgeable fans of Her Majesties fleet on hand? Crocodilicus 23:12, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Avast! Crocodilicus 04:09, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
The article states that the Royal Navy had escort carriers at the start of the War World II, which is to say September 1939. However, the first examples didn't appear until 1941, when HMS Audacity (D10) enter service. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrew381968 ( talk • contribs) 20:44, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
Over the past few years, I've been chipping away at a rewrite of the articles on the Colossus class aircraft carrier and the Majestic class aircraft carrier. Fairly early on, I realised that these two classes are so closely related, it would be eaiser to deal with both vessels in a unified article (which I've drafted at User:Saberwyn/Colossus-Majestic class carrier). To this end, I propose that the articles be merged together into a new article, provisionally titled British Light Fleet Carrier.
Reasons are:
In a separate but related proposal, I would like to suggest that HMS Leviathan (R97) be merged into the new article (or the Majestic class article if the above merge doesn't go ahead. Because Leviathan was never completed and was taken apart for spares and scrap, its unlikely that the article will expand very much, and all of the relevant content could be encompassed here. -- saberwyn 02:58, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm really surprised that this article doesn't reference Friedman's magisterial book on British Carrier Aviation as it extensively covers the requirement and design process.-- Sturmvogel 66 ( talk) 01:49, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Copied from User talk:Fry1989
You have been placing Royal Navy ensigns against the Majestic class carrier article info boxes. Please stop this. None of the Majestics were ever commissioned into the Royal Navy. - Nick Thorne talk 00:22, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- According to Majestic Class Carier, yes that class actually HAS been commissioned by the Royal Navy. Second, you do realize the Royal Navy's white ensign was used by the Australian, Canadian, New Zealand and Indian Navies until the 60s right? So even if the ship wasn't in the UK navy, if it was in one of the navies above, it used the white ensign. Third, I go by the "Ship Career" section of the infobox when I add an ensign, so I don't make mistakes. If it says the ship was used by a certain navy at a certain period of time, I add the correct ensign. If you can find a mistake, feel free to list it here, and I will correct it. Fry1989 eh? 00:27, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Re-read that article. It quite clearly states than none of the Majestics saw service in the Royal Navy. The ships in that article that were commissioned into the RN were all Colossus class. Adding the Royal Navy's ensign to these articles is misleading. - Nick Thorne talk 00:37, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- If the Ship's article says "Career (United Kingdom)" in the infobox of that ship, then either it was in the Royal Navy despite what you say, or that's a mistake with the article itself, not me. I go by what the infobox says. Fry1989 eh? 00:39, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- But none of the Majestic ships' articles have a "Career (United Kingom)" section in their info boxes because none of them had a career in the RN. - Nick Thorne talk 00:44, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Either we are not looking at the same "Majestic Class", or you're wrong. This is a list of ships in that class. Looking at their articles, HMS Venerable served 3 years in the Royal Navy, HMS Theseus served two, and several others on that list also appear to have served the Royal Navy. The only other "Majestic Class" I can find on Wikipedia is the Majestic Class battleship, but that class also served the Royal Navy. Fry1989 eh? 00:49, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Fry, I request that you take the time to read the articles you are flagging andor referring to. Also, please do not assume that all ships within a ship class saw service in the same navy. In this instance, the class article you are referring to is 1942 Design Light Fleet Carrier. This design incorporated two classes, the Colossus class, and the slightly upgraded Majestic class (as stated in the lead, the "Design and construction" section, and the list of ships). All of the Colossus class ships served in the Royal Navy. None of the Majestic class did. -- saberwyn 01:08, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- (Edit conflict) Both Venerable and Theseus were Colossus class. If you actually had a look at their articles, as you put it, you would see this. If you don't know anything about a subject you might be better advised to learn a little before you start making edits to it. - Nick Thorne talk 01:11, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- As I already said, I go by the infobox on the individual ship's article. I do not group all ships in a class together, nor am I going through these ships class by class. If the individual ship's article says that the ship in question served in a particular navy, either it did, or that is a mistake with the article. So far, neither of you have pointed out a specific ship where I added the white ensign, that did not serve the Royal Navy (or the Australian, Canadian or New Zealand Navies before the 60s when they also used the white ensign of the United Kingdom). Do that, and we'll talk. Fry1989 eh? 01:14, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Nick Thorne, since you want to act like I'm editing something I know nothing about, let me now educate you. I added the white ensign to the HMAS Sydney (which was Majestic-class). You removed that white ensign under the edit summary "Sydney never commissioned into the RN". What you clearly didn't pay attention to was that the HMAS Sydney was commissioned by the Royal Australian Navy in 1948, and again in 1962. From 1911 to 1967, the Royal Australin Navy used the White Ensign of the United Kingdom. Not until 1968 did Australia adopt a unique white ensign based on the Australian national flag. So since the ship served from 1948 to 1958, and then 1962 to 1973, it flew under first the UK White Ensign and then the Australian White Ensign, and I was right in adding the UK white ensign. So educate yourself before you try and claim IDK what I'm doing. Fry1989 eh? 01:22, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict) HMAS Sydney (R17) and HMAS Melbourne (R21). These ships, at no time, served or were commissioned into the British Royal Navy (at least, according to A- and FA- class articles, and all of the works that I've read on them to assemble the articles). At their commissionings (1948 and 1955 respectively), the carriers were commiisioned under the Australian White Ensign. From 1913 to 1967, the Royal Australian Navy used a flag that was identical to, but not was the British White Ensign (hence, possible confusion), at which point a unique flag was implemented. As I understand it, the policy for ship infoboxes is to only use the last flown version of a ensign for the relevant career infobox. As the 1967 version of the RAN White Ensign replaced the 1913 version of the RAN White Ensign, the article of any RAN ship operating post 1967 should use only the 1967 version of the flag. I cannot speak for the Canadians, Indians, or Kiwis, but assume similar circumstances for these navies. -- saberwyn 01:31, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Exactly, it was identical to (and therefore there was no distinction) the Royal Navy's white ensign. Infact, the Admiralty was the one that initially forced the RAN, RCN and RNZN to use the White Ensign of the Royal Navy, with only the naval jack (being the national flag) as distinction between the four Navies. So these ships didn't have to serve the Royal Navy to fly the white ensign, they simply had to serve the Australian, Canadian or New Zealand navies before the 60s. As for your understanding of the policy to only include the most recently flown ensign, I've not read that, and I've seen many ship infoboxes which did not follow this, such as the SAS Somerset. So far, I'm completely vindicated in adding the UK white ensign to the Sydney and the Melbourne. Fry1989 eh? 01:35, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
You need to read [[WP:BRD| WP:BRD]]. You were bold and made a change. I have reverted that change and now we are in the discussion phase. I propose that we move this discsussion to [[Talk:1942 Design Light Fleet Carrier| Talk:1942 Design Light Fleet Carrier]] and until a clear consensus has been established for your proposed change you should refrain from making it again. In fact I will copy this discussion there now. - Nick Thorne talk 01:47, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
There's a recently created substub at INS Vikram (R13) claiming that Leviathan was to be sold to the Indian Navy and completed to match Hercules/INS Vikrant. Does anyone have anything that can confirm or deny this? Either way, what should be done about the article? (personally in favour of merge redirect here like the Leviathan article unless there's enough sourced content to support a standalone article, which should be under the Leviathan name). -- saberwyn 14:04, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
@ Ser Amantio di Nicolao: I was curious as to why you tagged the article for Canadian English? Per WP:TIES, the topic is clearly British, in my opinion, as they designed the ships, and used more than any other user. Was this a mistake, or did you have a particular reason, such as something in the article's history? I didn't want to change it without asking first. Thanks. BilCat ( talk) 22:48, 25 January 2023 (UTC)