This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
The guy from the lab with red hair is an eco-terrorist, and he releases the virus. That's his motivation, eco-terrorism. 98.165.6.225 ( talk) 12:52, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
While I think the interpretation that Cole functions as a messiah figure is a perfectly valid one, it is not the ONLY one, and that the section of the article devoted to this idea (a) serves as the only real "interpretive" section of the article and (b) relies exclusively on a single source smacks of a one-sided view. It's essentially a paraphrasing of the referenced article, and that's merely one viewpoint of several--of many, really. Perhaps we should consider revising it a bit to represent other viewpoints (though, as I say, the Judeo-Christian idea is still valid). 75.64.203.100 ( talk) 05:40, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
I would think that wikipedia would at least bring up the timeline in the film. Here's and excellent article explaining the whole time traveling thing http://www.mjyoung.net/time/monkeys.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.111.82.56 ( talk) 19:19, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
>>"But does the film itself give us any reason to doubt them?". Well... it does actually, not that I am suggesting the Wiki article be changed to reflect original research. But there are several clues that the scientists can be doubted http://guidebites.com/12-monkeys-the-hidden-sub-plot-you-didnt-spot. And although MJ Young's original error laden, there are multiple timeline theories that fit the film, even if convoluted. http://guidebites.com/12-monkeys-time-travel-timelines/
The most likely form of time line is however the one spelt out in the film which contains causal loops... and Wikipedia should not contain the other original research theories Breed3011 ( talk) 16:37, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
I don't understand this phrase. Does it mean a more mediocre score (7.1 vs 7.3), or what? — Tamfang ( talk) 19:40, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Terry Gilliam might not have written this one, but he repeatedly says in interviews that he only agrees to direct films which resonate with his personal themes, and these are not the nature of memories but rather imagination and perception, as also indicated by an upcoming (will be published January 27th) German biography by Harald Mühlbeyer which even uses Terry's original English quote "Perception is a strange thing" for its title [1].
What is important to Terry, as he keeps emphasizing, is that for instance, two people can be present at the same event and perceive it entirely different from each other. Of course this will be represented as "different" events in the memory of each, but memory's reliability is not what he keeps going on about. The theme connecting imagination and perception is the overarching theme in all of Terry's films, which is his strong opposition to the strict rigidity with which consensus reality, political ideologies, and social values are enforced, thereby stifling individualism and people's imagination.
Therefore, I'd suggest changing "false memories" to anything related to the perception of reality. Also, the one who says "I remember you like this" is Cole to Railly, not vice versa, as his very next line is, "This is what you look like in my dream", which is his recurring dream of having seen himself getting shot at the airport at the end of the film. Finally, why can't it be said in the lead that 12 Monkeys is Terry's most commercially successful feature to date? -- 79.193.27.76 ( talk) 17:23, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Should the article not emphasize the lack of a Happy ending, an uncommon feature? DGtal ( talk) 14:35, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
It's hard to say whether the scientist on the plane was there to collect a sample for the good of mankind's future or whether she was there to ensure the scientists became the future "Masters of the Universe" after so many "Volunteers" disappeared and did not agree with the "orders". Even Cole himself said in the airport, "This is about doing as you're told...". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.49.68.165 ( talk) 15:17, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
Indeed, nobody knows whether the scientist leaders of the future already had a cure and that's why they were safe and became the leaders... We don't know what they "knew". Only what they told people to do... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.49.68.159 ( talk) 15:29, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
The problem with any happy ending is that the virus is ostensibly released at the security checkpoint. Although Morse's character may not be able to complete his lengthy itinerary of viral spread, it has presumably been released into an airport security line with passengers leaving for myriad destinations. It's totally ambiguous as to the ending -- although a speculative literary analysis might speculate that the 'scientist' on the plane will prove that Morse's character is in fact the eco-terrorist and then can send somebody back again to intercept him. Who knows. Great ending. GG The Fly ( talk) 19:16, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
I just created a new music subsection under Production. Does anyone know of some good, verifiable sources on the composer (Paul Buckmaster's article is terrible, and there is not a lot of information about him online), the composing of the film's music, and how Piazolla's music was chosen for the theme? I would like to fill out that subsection. --- RepublicanJacobite The'FortyFive' 15:27, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
The documentary The Hamster Factor was used as a source in the article, but the ref. was for the documentary's IMDB page, rather than the documentary itself. An IMDB page cannot be used to source the content of the documentary itself, therefore I removed those refs. If someone wants to fix this, so that it is clear the documentary was actually being used as the source, that would be great. But, I cannot verify that this was the case, since the refs themselves were unclear and the information poorly cited. --- RepublicanJacobite TheFortyFive 16:40, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
The article lists "Cole telling Railly "I remember you like this" when they are seen in disguise for the first time" as a false memory, but without an explanation of why. It's a bit harder to check the audio commentary than to look up an online source, and without further description it's not clear why this is an example of a false memory. Some guy ( talk) 08:52, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
In the Cinematic Allusions section, how about pointing out how the inclusion of the scene for Thomas Roy's "Evangelist" character alludes to the director's role as the "Blood & Thunder Prophet" in the film "Life Of Brian". Radome ( talk) 10:46, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm curious why references to 12 Monkeys never talk about Tiptree's "The Last Flight of Dr. Ain" ( http://davidlavery.net/Courses/3840/stories/drain.html), which seems to be a clear source for the virus-kills-humanity thread of the script. The eponymous Dr. Ain flies around the world disseminating a virus (not directly, person-to-person; he uses birds) intended to kill all higher primates and save the world's ecosystem (which he personalizes as a woman called Gaia). It could be a coincidence, but the short story is quite well known, as the first major success of Tiptree; it was even nominated for the Nebula award. Lektu ( talk) 01:45, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
"* James Tiptree, Jr.'s "The Last Flight of Dr. Ain" — a short science fiction story with similar plot elements, first published in 1969, about a scientist flying around the world with the aim of ending the Anthropocene Epoch by releasing a virus targeted to eliminate Homo sapiens, before humanity can destroy life on Earth via climate change."
Kaecyy ( talk) 06:12, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
[...] The same year Tiptree sold three more stories, but it was the appearance of "The Last Flight of Dr. Ain" in Galaxy a year later that established the tone of Tiptree's best work, the literary equivalent o fan ice shard to the heart: chilly, razor-sharp, and terrifying. Tiptree's grim, deliberate account of a doctor unleashing a deadly virus on humankind via air travel—appropriated years later by Terry Gilliam in his film 12 Monkeys—was only 2,500 words long. [...]I agree that the works share a lot in common: "a tall, thin, nondescript man with rusty hair" jets around the world, among his destinations Karachi and San Francisco, spreads a human-engineered virus that wipes out humanity in order to save the Earth. A passing mention is not quite good enough, but I'm sure if you go through biographies of Alice Sheldon you can find a proper source for this information.I'd say this information should definitely be incorporated into the article, pending a proper source. Bright☀ 09:54, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
I suggest that the infobox list only Willis, Stowe, and Pitt as the stars, leaving out Plummer. It is pretty clear from the poster who the stars are. Any thoughts on this, pro or con? --- The Old Jacobite The '45 15:45, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
Although there are comments going back several years about whether the article should be titled 'Twelve Monkeys' or '12 Monkeys' it's not at all clear that the question has been adequately resolved. The most recent comment which was made by me more than two years ago elicited no responses, while an attempt to edit the title today was rolled back within hours on the basis that it had not been properly discussed. Let me say up-front that I am still a relative novice to Wikipedia editing and I apologise if I have unwittingly transgressed against convention.
It's apparent that the film is widely known by both titles and has been released in cinemas and on various media under both as well. For what it's worth, the VHS and DVD copies that I own are 'Twelve' variants, and a similarly-titled Blu-ray is currently on sale in the UK; confusingly so are DVD and Blu-rays with '12' instead. The packaging of my copies is itself inconsistent in that the small-print summary (I'm sure this has a technical name!) on the reverse of the case states the title as '12 Monkeys' despite having 'Twelve' printed on the front cover and the disk itself. I don't know the situation elsewhere but it may be relevant that the US Amazon site only lists DVDs and Blu-rays with the '12' variant.
Clearly there is scope for confusion. My contention that the Wikipedia article should be titled 'Twelve Monkeys (12 Monkeys)' is based on the simple fact that the opening credits state "Polygram Filmed Entertainment and Universal Pictures Present [...] Twelve Monkeys." The number '12' does not appear anywhere in the credits except as a piece of supporting artwork without the word 'monkeys'. If 'Twelve Monkeys' was the title chosen by the studio for the final print, it's hard to imagine why it would have changed before release. It's also worth noting that a company called 'Twelve Monkey Productions Inc' is identified in the end credits as the film's author for the purposes of the Berne Convention. While not conclusive, it does support the notion that the film was intended to bear the same title as its production company.
There is also strong evidence that the film is properly titled 'Twelve Monkeys', at least in the United Kingdom and Australia, by virtue of the certificates issued by their respective film classification boards. In the UK the prime theatrical certificate dated February 1996 is listed as 'Twelve Monkeys (1995)' with a note (which may date from 2008) that the film is also known as '12 Monkeys' In-all the British board lists five feature and six trailer certificates in respect of this film between January 1996 and January 2008; only two of these, both two-minute video trailers dated 1996 and 2008, refer to '12 Monkeys', the remainder to 'Twelve'. It would have been illegal for the film to have been distributed under a different title to that stated in the certificate and I imagine the situation in Australia to be similar. The film originates from the US and its certification title there is obviously crucial. The Classification & Rating Administration (CARA) website is not particularly clear, however, as the title is stated to be "12(Twelve) Monkeys 1995" with '12 Monkeys' as an alternate. It's hard to believe that the film was actually titled '12(Twelve) Monkeys' so I have written to CARA requesting clarification.
I'm not proposing that the article should be re-titled 'Twelve Monkeys' but I think it should reflect that variant because there is clear evidence that the film has been officially released under that title, and at the very least there needs to be mention of the discrepancy within the article itself. Someone who made the same point earlier was slapped down with the comment that the title had been exhaustively discussed but, perhaps through ignorance, I can't find any substantive discussion or evidence to support the conclusion that '12' is solely correct. I realise my evidence thus far is largely UK-centric, so if the alternative view is based on US material it might be useful if that could be given an airing. My choice remains 'Twelve Monkeys (12 Monkeys)' though the reverse might prove equally valid. Someone commented on my edit to the effect 'that's not how we do alternate titles', in which case I plead ignorance and would welcome being shown how we do. Mandrake079 ( talk) 22:32, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
Source | 12 | Twelve |
---|---|---|
Film credits | X | |
The Numbers | X | |
Metacritic | X | |
Hugo Awards | X | |
Rotten Tomatoes | X | X |
New York Times | X | X |
Entertainment Weekly | X | X |
The Hamster Factor | X | X |
Box Office Mojo | X | |
Sight and Sound | X | |
Ástor Piazzolla | X | |
Salon | X | |
San Francisco Chronicle | X | |
Roger Ebert | X | |
Washington Post | X | |
Rolling Stone | X | |
The Oscars | X |
12 Monkeys is no longer the primary topic for the film, and there should be disambiguation between the film and the television series. In the past three weeks, 12 Monkeys (TV series) has had a maximum of 8,082 views, whereas 12 Monkeys has a maximum of 3,790 views - less than half, many of which are editors trying to get to the television article. I propose that 12 Monkeys be moved to 12 Monkeys (film), and then the resultant redirect left at 12 Monkeys be redirected to 12 Monkeys (disambiguation), where the film and television series are listed. Alex|The|Whovian ? 01:11, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
The guy from the lab with red hair is an eco-terrorist, and he releases the virus. That's his motivation, eco-terrorism. 98.165.6.225 ( talk) 12:52, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
While I think the interpretation that Cole functions as a messiah figure is a perfectly valid one, it is not the ONLY one, and that the section of the article devoted to this idea (a) serves as the only real "interpretive" section of the article and (b) relies exclusively on a single source smacks of a one-sided view. It's essentially a paraphrasing of the referenced article, and that's merely one viewpoint of several--of many, really. Perhaps we should consider revising it a bit to represent other viewpoints (though, as I say, the Judeo-Christian idea is still valid). 75.64.203.100 ( talk) 05:40, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
I would think that wikipedia would at least bring up the timeline in the film. Here's and excellent article explaining the whole time traveling thing http://www.mjyoung.net/time/monkeys.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.111.82.56 ( talk) 19:19, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
>>"But does the film itself give us any reason to doubt them?". Well... it does actually, not that I am suggesting the Wiki article be changed to reflect original research. But there are several clues that the scientists can be doubted http://guidebites.com/12-monkeys-the-hidden-sub-plot-you-didnt-spot. And although MJ Young's original error laden, there are multiple timeline theories that fit the film, even if convoluted. http://guidebites.com/12-monkeys-time-travel-timelines/
The most likely form of time line is however the one spelt out in the film which contains causal loops... and Wikipedia should not contain the other original research theories Breed3011 ( talk) 16:37, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
I don't understand this phrase. Does it mean a more mediocre score (7.1 vs 7.3), or what? — Tamfang ( talk) 19:40, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Terry Gilliam might not have written this one, but he repeatedly says in interviews that he only agrees to direct films which resonate with his personal themes, and these are not the nature of memories but rather imagination and perception, as also indicated by an upcoming (will be published January 27th) German biography by Harald Mühlbeyer which even uses Terry's original English quote "Perception is a strange thing" for its title [1].
What is important to Terry, as he keeps emphasizing, is that for instance, two people can be present at the same event and perceive it entirely different from each other. Of course this will be represented as "different" events in the memory of each, but memory's reliability is not what he keeps going on about. The theme connecting imagination and perception is the overarching theme in all of Terry's films, which is his strong opposition to the strict rigidity with which consensus reality, political ideologies, and social values are enforced, thereby stifling individualism and people's imagination.
Therefore, I'd suggest changing "false memories" to anything related to the perception of reality. Also, the one who says "I remember you like this" is Cole to Railly, not vice versa, as his very next line is, "This is what you look like in my dream", which is his recurring dream of having seen himself getting shot at the airport at the end of the film. Finally, why can't it be said in the lead that 12 Monkeys is Terry's most commercially successful feature to date? -- 79.193.27.76 ( talk) 17:23, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Should the article not emphasize the lack of a Happy ending, an uncommon feature? DGtal ( talk) 14:35, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
It's hard to say whether the scientist on the plane was there to collect a sample for the good of mankind's future or whether she was there to ensure the scientists became the future "Masters of the Universe" after so many "Volunteers" disappeared and did not agree with the "orders". Even Cole himself said in the airport, "This is about doing as you're told...". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.49.68.165 ( talk) 15:17, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
Indeed, nobody knows whether the scientist leaders of the future already had a cure and that's why they were safe and became the leaders... We don't know what they "knew". Only what they told people to do... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.49.68.159 ( talk) 15:29, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
The problem with any happy ending is that the virus is ostensibly released at the security checkpoint. Although Morse's character may not be able to complete his lengthy itinerary of viral spread, it has presumably been released into an airport security line with passengers leaving for myriad destinations. It's totally ambiguous as to the ending -- although a speculative literary analysis might speculate that the 'scientist' on the plane will prove that Morse's character is in fact the eco-terrorist and then can send somebody back again to intercept him. Who knows. Great ending. GG The Fly ( talk) 19:16, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
I just created a new music subsection under Production. Does anyone know of some good, verifiable sources on the composer (Paul Buckmaster's article is terrible, and there is not a lot of information about him online), the composing of the film's music, and how Piazolla's music was chosen for the theme? I would like to fill out that subsection. --- RepublicanJacobite The'FortyFive' 15:27, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
The documentary The Hamster Factor was used as a source in the article, but the ref. was for the documentary's IMDB page, rather than the documentary itself. An IMDB page cannot be used to source the content of the documentary itself, therefore I removed those refs. If someone wants to fix this, so that it is clear the documentary was actually being used as the source, that would be great. But, I cannot verify that this was the case, since the refs themselves were unclear and the information poorly cited. --- RepublicanJacobite TheFortyFive 16:40, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
The article lists "Cole telling Railly "I remember you like this" when they are seen in disguise for the first time" as a false memory, but without an explanation of why. It's a bit harder to check the audio commentary than to look up an online source, and without further description it's not clear why this is an example of a false memory. Some guy ( talk) 08:52, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
In the Cinematic Allusions section, how about pointing out how the inclusion of the scene for Thomas Roy's "Evangelist" character alludes to the director's role as the "Blood & Thunder Prophet" in the film "Life Of Brian". Radome ( talk) 10:46, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm curious why references to 12 Monkeys never talk about Tiptree's "The Last Flight of Dr. Ain" ( http://davidlavery.net/Courses/3840/stories/drain.html), which seems to be a clear source for the virus-kills-humanity thread of the script. The eponymous Dr. Ain flies around the world disseminating a virus (not directly, person-to-person; he uses birds) intended to kill all higher primates and save the world's ecosystem (which he personalizes as a woman called Gaia). It could be a coincidence, but the short story is quite well known, as the first major success of Tiptree; it was even nominated for the Nebula award. Lektu ( talk) 01:45, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
"* James Tiptree, Jr.'s "The Last Flight of Dr. Ain" — a short science fiction story with similar plot elements, first published in 1969, about a scientist flying around the world with the aim of ending the Anthropocene Epoch by releasing a virus targeted to eliminate Homo sapiens, before humanity can destroy life on Earth via climate change."
Kaecyy ( talk) 06:12, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
[...] The same year Tiptree sold three more stories, but it was the appearance of "The Last Flight of Dr. Ain" in Galaxy a year later that established the tone of Tiptree's best work, the literary equivalent o fan ice shard to the heart: chilly, razor-sharp, and terrifying. Tiptree's grim, deliberate account of a doctor unleashing a deadly virus on humankind via air travel—appropriated years later by Terry Gilliam in his film 12 Monkeys—was only 2,500 words long. [...]I agree that the works share a lot in common: "a tall, thin, nondescript man with rusty hair" jets around the world, among his destinations Karachi and San Francisco, spreads a human-engineered virus that wipes out humanity in order to save the Earth. A passing mention is not quite good enough, but I'm sure if you go through biographies of Alice Sheldon you can find a proper source for this information.I'd say this information should definitely be incorporated into the article, pending a proper source. Bright☀ 09:54, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
I suggest that the infobox list only Willis, Stowe, and Pitt as the stars, leaving out Plummer. It is pretty clear from the poster who the stars are. Any thoughts on this, pro or con? --- The Old Jacobite The '45 15:45, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
Although there are comments going back several years about whether the article should be titled 'Twelve Monkeys' or '12 Monkeys' it's not at all clear that the question has been adequately resolved. The most recent comment which was made by me more than two years ago elicited no responses, while an attempt to edit the title today was rolled back within hours on the basis that it had not been properly discussed. Let me say up-front that I am still a relative novice to Wikipedia editing and I apologise if I have unwittingly transgressed against convention.
It's apparent that the film is widely known by both titles and has been released in cinemas and on various media under both as well. For what it's worth, the VHS and DVD copies that I own are 'Twelve' variants, and a similarly-titled Blu-ray is currently on sale in the UK; confusingly so are DVD and Blu-rays with '12' instead. The packaging of my copies is itself inconsistent in that the small-print summary (I'm sure this has a technical name!) on the reverse of the case states the title as '12 Monkeys' despite having 'Twelve' printed on the front cover and the disk itself. I don't know the situation elsewhere but it may be relevant that the US Amazon site only lists DVDs and Blu-rays with the '12' variant.
Clearly there is scope for confusion. My contention that the Wikipedia article should be titled 'Twelve Monkeys (12 Monkeys)' is based on the simple fact that the opening credits state "Polygram Filmed Entertainment and Universal Pictures Present [...] Twelve Monkeys." The number '12' does not appear anywhere in the credits except as a piece of supporting artwork without the word 'monkeys'. If 'Twelve Monkeys' was the title chosen by the studio for the final print, it's hard to imagine why it would have changed before release. It's also worth noting that a company called 'Twelve Monkey Productions Inc' is identified in the end credits as the film's author for the purposes of the Berne Convention. While not conclusive, it does support the notion that the film was intended to bear the same title as its production company.
There is also strong evidence that the film is properly titled 'Twelve Monkeys', at least in the United Kingdom and Australia, by virtue of the certificates issued by their respective film classification boards. In the UK the prime theatrical certificate dated February 1996 is listed as 'Twelve Monkeys (1995)' with a note (which may date from 2008) that the film is also known as '12 Monkeys' In-all the British board lists five feature and six trailer certificates in respect of this film between January 1996 and January 2008; only two of these, both two-minute video trailers dated 1996 and 2008, refer to '12 Monkeys', the remainder to 'Twelve'. It would have been illegal for the film to have been distributed under a different title to that stated in the certificate and I imagine the situation in Australia to be similar. The film originates from the US and its certification title there is obviously crucial. The Classification & Rating Administration (CARA) website is not particularly clear, however, as the title is stated to be "12(Twelve) Monkeys 1995" with '12 Monkeys' as an alternate. It's hard to believe that the film was actually titled '12(Twelve) Monkeys' so I have written to CARA requesting clarification.
I'm not proposing that the article should be re-titled 'Twelve Monkeys' but I think it should reflect that variant because there is clear evidence that the film has been officially released under that title, and at the very least there needs to be mention of the discrepancy within the article itself. Someone who made the same point earlier was slapped down with the comment that the title had been exhaustively discussed but, perhaps through ignorance, I can't find any substantive discussion or evidence to support the conclusion that '12' is solely correct. I realise my evidence thus far is largely UK-centric, so if the alternative view is based on US material it might be useful if that could be given an airing. My choice remains 'Twelve Monkeys (12 Monkeys)' though the reverse might prove equally valid. Someone commented on my edit to the effect 'that's not how we do alternate titles', in which case I plead ignorance and would welcome being shown how we do. Mandrake079 ( talk) 22:32, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
Source | 12 | Twelve |
---|---|---|
Film credits | X | |
The Numbers | X | |
Metacritic | X | |
Hugo Awards | X | |
Rotten Tomatoes | X | X |
New York Times | X | X |
Entertainment Weekly | X | X |
The Hamster Factor | X | X |
Box Office Mojo | X | |
Sight and Sound | X | |
Ástor Piazzolla | X | |
Salon | X | |
San Francisco Chronicle | X | |
Roger Ebert | X | |
Washington Post | X | |
Rolling Stone | X | |
The Oscars | X |
12 Monkeys is no longer the primary topic for the film, and there should be disambiguation between the film and the television series. In the past three weeks, 12 Monkeys (TV series) has had a maximum of 8,082 views, whereas 12 Monkeys has a maximum of 3,790 views - less than half, many of which are editors trying to get to the television article. I propose that 12 Monkeys be moved to 12 Monkeys (film), and then the resultant redirect left at 12 Monkeys be redirected to 12 Monkeys (disambiguation), where the film and television series are listed. Alex|The|Whovian ? 01:11, 9 June 2016 (UTC)