![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The following archive contains a variety of discussions, all of which have been resolved for at least six months.
Readers interested in this topic may find these discussions of interest.
I am proposing a major rewrite for two major purposes: professionalism and accuracy. I will deal with the first of the two issues first since I think it is fairly non-controversial and we can all agree on the rewrites that are necessary in that aspect. Pianoguy 03:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, the tone of the article is somewhat bellicose. This is most evident in the "controversy" section which includes such odd statements as "while the conclusions are unsettling to some" and "this data is uncontested." If the data is in truth uncontested then such a statement is not necessary, in either case it is rather highschoolish and needs to be rewritten. There are several such instances in this article. Pianoguy 03:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Secondly, as already mentioned the sources for this article are poor at best, with the exception of the world factbook, the Time article, and possibly the World Christian Encylopedia. Particularly bad is the citation of a private blog, and most curiously, a citation of something I said on this board. I am flattered to suppose that anything I say is quoteworthy, but as people have been quick to point out I am neither a non-biased source nor an expert on this subject. I understand that this is in an attempt to add to the fairness of this article, but simply citing biased sources on both sides of the issue does not add to the fairness of the article. Pianoguy 03:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the factual accuracy of this article- as I have been researching the term 10/40 window it seems that it is only within the Luis Bush camp that the term refers to a supposed correlation between Christianity and poverty. As I will demonstrate later, no such correlation exists and no respected scientist has ever tried to make this claim, hence it cannot be included on wikipedia. For most people, the 10/40 window seems to refer to an area of the world that contains a high percentage of non-Christians, and as such, it is an easy area for evangelists to focus missionary activity upon. The rewrite of the article will focus mainly on this aspect of the window and will eliminate the economic aspect. Pianoguy 03:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
There are several counterexamples to the claim that there is a correlation between Christianity and economic prosperity, some of which I have already discussed and some of which I have not. Firstly, there are many countries that are economically prosperous and have little history of Christianity: most notably Japan, China, Singapore, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Israel, South Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwain, and others. Secondly, Europe, while it does have a history of Christianity, currently has one of the highest percentages of atheists and agnostics in the world, along with one of the strongest economies. Thirdly, South America has a high percentage of Christians and a rather weak economy (especially when contrasted with the non-Christian nations with strong economies in the 10/40 window, i.e. Japan, Saudia Arabia, et. al). Fourthly, especially in Africa, there has been little to no historical correlation with the introduction of Christianity to an improved economy. While sub-Saharan Africa has seen an increase in Christianity in recent years, the economy has gotten much worse. Fifthly, in supposedly Christian nations there is a strong correlation between Christianity and economic prosperity- but in the opposite direction. In the United States, for example, New England, California, and the Pacific Northwest are home to both the most properous areas economically and the highest percentage of atheists and non-Christians, whereas the considerably more religious South and Midwest are poorer economically. This is also true in Europe: traditionally atheistic Scandanavia, France, and Germany have much stronger economies than the more religious Italy, Spain, Portugal, and Eastern Europe. Pianoguy 03:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I need to add that it is not my duty to provide these counterexamples, as the burden for proving a theory falls on the person asserting that the theory is true, in accordance with traditional scientific process and Wikipedia standards. Pianoguy 03:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
The article has tried to cite statistics that supposedly document this correlation, although few to none of these statistics come from reliable sources. Most importantly, the article does not account for any of the cases described above. The many strong economies within the window are dismissed as "anomalies" as though Japan and China, two of the strongest economies in the world, can be categorized this way. Europe is explained as having "access to Christian resources," a term which appears subjective and unmeasurable. Even if this explains the case of Europe, it does not account for growing access to Christian resources in many areas of the world, which have not seen a corresponding increase in economic prosperity that seems necessary to prove the existence of such a correlation. Pianoguy 03:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
In light of tremendous opposing evidence, and unsatisfactory supporting evidence, it becomes necessary to consider the removal of such information. If it is deemed necessary to resupply the article, more writing can be added, but it will need to be strictly documented in terms of reliable sources, which has been unsatisfactory up to this point in time. Pianoguy 03:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
By the way, you have also inverted the logic of the correlation. The facts highlighted by the 10/40 Window analysis are not of Christianity and prosperity. It is lack of access to Christian resources correlated with poverty and low quality of life. They are not the same. Here's an example from India. The outcastes of India are held in place by a variety of factors; many would argue that much of this has to do with the upper classes enjoying the "benefit" of a slave class. One of the more eloquent is the "Tocqueville" of India, Vishal Mangalwadi. In The Quest for Freedom and Dignity: Caste, conversion and cultural revolution" [1] he argues passionately that 'Caste, karma, and reincarnation created today's Hindu hierarchy, but caste cannot coexist with democracy. Democracy, built on the biblical principles of justice and equality, is driving Dalits and other lower caste Hindus to rise up against 3,000 years of Hindu caste-driven "apartheid."' It is Christians who have been bringing this realization to India for over 100 years, beginning with William Carey. Mr Pete 16:05, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
My point: Escaping from such bondage is not a guarantee of riches by any means, but over time it brings a quality of life that none can deny. The same is true in many many parts of the world. The correlation is of escape from bondage, not entrance into wealth. Escape from poverty, death and disease, not entry into a life of ease. Mr Pete 16:05, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
(I happen to believe that even Europe and the USA, having forgotten their foundations, will not long survive without being answerable to a "higher being." Historians have seen this for a long time. What is happening today is, in that sense, no different from long ago. But that's off-topic to this article. We don't need to posit nor prove the "why" and "wherefor". We have a simple set of analytical facts that produced a simple outcome.) Mr Pete 15:10, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I want to especially emphasize the point about history: if over the last 15+ years the 10/40 Window has seen a vast decline of poverty or improvement in quality of life, then at least for the sake of this article one is obligated to find published references that consider the extent to which the Christian message and resources have had anything to do with it. If the economies are better, that's great. Is that further validation or a repudiation of the 10/40 Window concept? Do we need to look at additional factors suggested by PianoGuy concerns, such as rate of change, imminent decline, or any of a host of other influences? In any case, we must look at the situation today as historically very different from the situation in the 1980's/1990. Mr Pete 16:05, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This section's factual accuracy is
disputed. (March 2008) |
The entire reference section is based on Christian sources and is therefore POV, with the exception of the World Factbook, and the Time Magazine article, which consists only of a map of the region with two sentences describing it. This article requires more non-biased sources.
In addition, the reference section is extremely confusing and needs to be cleaned, footnotes should link directly to the source being quoted. "See above sources" is unacceptable, especially when making highly controversial statements. Pianoguy 00:26, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This section's factual accuracy is
disputed. (March 2008) |
I have struck the sentence that dismissed the entire area as "econmically backwards" (an undefinable term and one that no economist would use). This needs to be rewritten more objectively. Certainly some of the area could be said to be "economically backwards," but this does not account for the many advanced economies in the area such as Greece, Portugal, Saudi Arabia, Hong Kong, Singapore, China, all in addition to Japan, to name just a few.
Of course, the entire article overlooks the fact that South America is extremely Christian and is "economically backwards" and Europe is extremely atheistic and has a strong economy.
At what point, scientifically, does one class an economy as "economically backwards"? Pianoguy 20:33, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I am striking the references to the 10/40 area as having the "highest area of socioeconomic problems in the world." Following one of the links provided by the author, the Wikipedia article on the Human Development Index, one can easily see that the area of greatest economic suffering is not the 10/40 window but Africa, specifically sub-Saharan Africa. The 10/40 window does encompass part of this area, but if a window were made to encompass the area of greatest human suffering in the world it would not correspond to the 10/40 window. This makes this statement scientifically indefensible. Pianoguy 00:50, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I am also striking the reference to South Korea as a strong Christian nation. A visit to the Wikipedia article religion in South Korea shows clearly that 86% of the population is non-Christian. Pianoguy 00:50, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
The term "access to Christian resources" needs to be defined. Religious statistics show Europe as having the highest percentage of non-believers in the world, yet it is implied in the article that Europe is economically prosperous because it has "access to Christianity." This doesn't make any sense even from a theological standpoint, one would suppose that God would be even more angry at Europe for having deserted the faith and would punish them accordingly. Pianoguy 00:50, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This section's factual accuracy is
disputed. (March 2008) |
This article has serious neutrality issues. Attempting to correlate a lack of Christianity with "increased human suffering" (whatever THAT means) is irresponsible at best and racist at worst. This article needs heavy editing. Pianoguy 01:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Questions: Pianoguy has requested specific citations for three elements in the introduction. This raises two questions for me about Wikipedia "standard" practice (whatever that is)...
In this case, the referenced material made use of data from standard nation-level sources (e.g. UN, etc). Those sources are cited in the Wikipedia article. Yet a reviewer (Pianoguy) wants further citations in support of this article's summary statement. It is not clear that further details would either help make this a better encyclopedic entry, nor is it clear that adding all that data would ameliorate Pianoguy's concerns. Mr Pete 19:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not an expert on Wikipedia guidelines, but I've got to say that calling a third of the world's population "Unevangelized Peoples" seems questionable. It sounds just as bad as calling them "Infidels" or something. Perhaps 'Non-Christians' or even just "demographics for the 10/40 window, by religion:"?
Pasta Salad 06:39, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
While I agree that it can be viewed as derogatory, your suggestions don't imply the same thing. Evangelism quite literally means "spreading the good news", so people who have heard the "good news of Jesus Christ" without converting I believe are considered evangelized. That is why the numbers are much lower than the population in the region as a whole. Viewed in this context I don't think it's an offensive term, but if there are less inflammatory alternatives with the same meaning I'm open to it changing.
Senor fjord 23:21, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
people who have heard the "good news of Jesus Christ" without converting I believe are considered evangelized.
That's correct.
Complicating it even further, the traditional demographic sources are census-based. This leads to cultural measurements (e.g. "if you're European or American then of course you're Christian"). As a result, it's quite possible to be a follower of Jesus without leaving Islam. Apparently, there are even "Messianic Mosques"!
Mr Pete 17:48, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
A better way to call this would be "Non-white" world, and realize that vast majority of European populations aren't particuarly that religious at this point. Just admit it, it's about racism.
Actually, it would more accurately be called: "non-European", (as the Hispanics aren't exactly white). However, there is a significant portion of (black) Africa, that isn't included. So I guess "non-European" wouldn't that good of a term either.
Whoever made the above comment is seriously uninformed. Christianity ceased to be predominantly even semi-European many decades ago.
I'm reverting several recent edits, as they are non-factual:
Mr Pete 18:02, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Reverting more edits:
North and South Korea are both in the Window. This is apparently hard for people to believe. Please check out the Wikipedia map for North Korea. Note that South Korea is completely below 40 degrees and inside the Window. Note that most of North Korea is below 40 degrees and inside the Window.
The population statistics are not about evangelized/unevangelized. They are a count of non-Christians.
Please, if you are motivated to re-edit these issues, first talk about it on this page! All recent edits have introduced errors. Check the original sources cited in the article.
Mr Pete 11:22, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Recent edits have introduced a needlessly controversial perspective not found in the 10/40 research.
The user at 75.37.25.3 introduced the idea that the "Christian" part of the analysis was based on percentages of Christians with a goal of proselytizing. Yet the cited study used overall investment figures, not numbers of Christians: less than 7% of Christian resources were going to that part of the world. For example, World Vision, a large children-at-risk development organization with UN ties, made some significant shifts in their investment strategy as a result of the 10/40 research (citation needed if possible.)
Mr Pete 03:53, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I designed and uploaded a map that shows the actual countries that this "window" was designed to encompass, I felt it would better illustrate than a dry list. Danthemankhan 04:04, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Various people seem to be intent on removing South Korea from the Window. South Korea is only one of many "anomalies" that help prove the point that the Window is simply a helpful generalization. It would be nice if this could be appreciated!
I've created a new paragraph that describes some of the interesting anomalies, including South Korea. I hope this information will help make the article acceptable!
-- Mr Pete 09:16, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Amazing how this happens over and over. Both Koreas, North and South are 10/40 Window nations. That's because most of North Korea's land mass is inside the 10/40 Window, and all of South Korea is inside. Folks, it's a geographic definition. Yes, South Korea is majority Christian and North Korea is not. That's ok.
Mr Pete 10:54, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted the recent addition of Italy to the list, and added a citation referencing the portion of the original article that provides the appropriate data. Italy is not part of the 10/40 Window. Likewise, I've corrected several other factual errors about 10/40 nations that were added in recent edits:
Mr Pete 03:13, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
More reverts. The newly-edited summary suggested that India is part of Central Asia (it is not) and needlessly complicated the description of what is or is not in the Window area. Simplified to point to Wikipedia articles covering each of the sub-regions of the Asian continent.
Mr Pete 05:03, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Tagged it {{ Primarysources}} as it even says it's been verified against primary sources. We really need some secondary sources here else it slips into the world of neologisms and WP:OR. Ttiotsw 15:24, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Does all of West Africa count here? I only ask because some of it is technically Western Hemisphere. Young Skywalker 06:03, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
This has been tagged as having no secondary sources for quite a while. It's simply a copy (more or less) of what Luis Bush has got on this topic. Who else uses this term ?. I feel it should be merged into the Luis Bush article unless we have cites from reliable sources as to who else uses this. Ttiotsw 08:04, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
A simple Google search would prove that it is not just Bush using this term. Time Magazine had a major story on the phenomenon in 2003, and it is common coin among missiologists, pastors, and people interested in missions around the world. Bush may have coined the term, but it is a far larger concept than just Bush at this moment. Robert Johnson 22:58, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I have done some NPOV editing on this article, but even still the article seems to imply that there is a causal relation between poverty and lack of Christianity. This problem could be remedied by including material indicating whether the inventor of the 10/40 Window actually posits such a causal relationship, and/or summarizing critical views about the utility of the 10/40 Window. — Psychonaut 02:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Propose to change the term "Atheist" to "non-religious" and link to Irreligion. We're comparing religions and atheism isn't a religion per-se; if we want to compare like for like we would have to specify the actual moral/ethical worldview e.g. secular humanist or rationalist etc and I would imagine that no statistic exists for that. Vietnam as an example the census just said that 'x' percent were non-religious. As atheism has risen during the post-Enlightenment and goes hand-in-hand with the rise of the scientific method, I would say that in fact the lack of atheism across all these countries is a proxy for the poverty as much as there is a lack of science and technology to make these people solve their unique living problems and generate wealth. As we have seen with Vietnam it was the more recent free-market reforms that have pushed up Vietnam not the Christian missionary work that dates back so many years (The Christians in American certainly helped the message with the supply of holy carpet bombs). There is nothing intrinsically Christian about economic theories of markets. Ttiotsw 08:42, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
For the sake of Wikipedia and controversial articles...
Gold Seal Campaign:
What do you think of this? The administrators of Wikipedia establish a Gold Seal campaign for certain articles. This “Gold Seal” will indicate for a given article it’s factuality and lack of vandalism. Basically it will show..
1-This page is properly cited.
2-This page has been verified.
This will be an important step for Wikipedia. It means students, high school included will be able to cite Wikipedia in their work. As of now many schools do not allow students to this.
As for editing an article, It will still be allowed yet a person can easily revert to the Gold Sealed, verified page on Wikipedia. This will be an amazing step for Wikipedia, though difficult, it will allow readers to know for sure what they are reading is true. It will surely improve Wikipedia’s image in the public sphere. Of course someone will have to organize this, but in then it will be sufficient use of labour. — mattawa
The 10/40 window is primarily a way of recognizing that nations within this geographic area represent the primary area of the world: 1) that is not Christian; and 2) that is dominated by one of three other major religions. Thus, if you believe that Christianity is the "true" religion - then identifying this window may be a overwhelming motivating factor to send missionaries to in order to "present" the Gospel to those who have not heard. This area is primarily Hindu, Buddhist and Muslim. I have listened to speakers discuss this for OVER a decade, and no one I have ever heard has presented this as anything other than a missions issue. Alleviating poverty, etc., is a major focus of some large Christian organizations (ie Samaritan's Purse), but it diffuses the primary focus of the "10/40' window phrase to bring in ancilliary issues to a phrase that is a basis of focusing evangelistic resources. Even if India continues on it's way to becoming an economic powerhouse and becomes wealthy, it will still be viewed by conservative Christians who used this phrase as being in the 10/40 window because it is the world's largest Hindu nation and one of the largest Muslim populations centers - the same can be said about Dubai. No one will remove these nations and adjust the window if they remain nations where Jesus has not been presented to the population. You may be opposed to this or be in favor of this mission's focus, but it's not about poverty or education (and may not be about whether the nations respond positively to the message about Jesus) - but it's about presenting the message to "people groups" that have not heard due to an overwhelming saturation by another religious group. Any focus on poverty as part of this is secondary. And the POV is going to have Christian resources, but this is an important article, whatever your religious views. A group of South Koreans just got freed in Afghanistan (those that were not killed) - understanding the 10/40 window as it is viewed by missiologists is critical to understanding why South Koreans were there in such numbers. If the muslims had a "window", it may be Europe and North America - it would not be inaccurate even if the sources for the POV were Islamic - it would explain their mission activities and be newsworthy. Last, the "10/40 window" is very, very similar to President Bush's "Axis of Evil" concept - a way of making a simplifying statement that our "sound bite" world can get its head around and understand. (I hate to link this to a political party's use of a phrase, especially when he is increasingly unpopular - but geographic word phrases are not limited to religious issues.) It needs to remain focused on the primary issue - South Koreans are not primarily dieing in Afghanistan for better education for the Afghans or even to allevaite poverty. With all due respect (and I have been criticized for some of my articles, too), this article is too diffused. Clinton said "it's the economy, stupid" in the 1992 campaign and this phrase should be "it's missions" (delete stupid - it's not Christian enough). Having said that, I am not going to edit it. It's tough to write this stuff accurate, and I respect everyone taking on this hot button issue. I will go back to my little corner outside the 10/40 window now. -- Baxterguy 16:03, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Why are countries like Portugal, Greece, and the Philippines (where Christianity is very well established) -- not to mention Ethiopia, with its long Christian-dominated history -- being indiscriminately lumped together with Libya and Pakistan? Frankly, I question the usefulness of any concept which does not meaningfully distinguish between Libya and the Philippines... AnonMoos ( talk) 12:30, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The following archive contains a variety of discussions, all of which have been resolved for at least six months.
Readers interested in this topic may find these discussions of interest.
I am proposing a major rewrite for two major purposes: professionalism and accuracy. I will deal with the first of the two issues first since I think it is fairly non-controversial and we can all agree on the rewrites that are necessary in that aspect. Pianoguy 03:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, the tone of the article is somewhat bellicose. This is most evident in the "controversy" section which includes such odd statements as "while the conclusions are unsettling to some" and "this data is uncontested." If the data is in truth uncontested then such a statement is not necessary, in either case it is rather highschoolish and needs to be rewritten. There are several such instances in this article. Pianoguy 03:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Secondly, as already mentioned the sources for this article are poor at best, with the exception of the world factbook, the Time article, and possibly the World Christian Encylopedia. Particularly bad is the citation of a private blog, and most curiously, a citation of something I said on this board. I am flattered to suppose that anything I say is quoteworthy, but as people have been quick to point out I am neither a non-biased source nor an expert on this subject. I understand that this is in an attempt to add to the fairness of this article, but simply citing biased sources on both sides of the issue does not add to the fairness of the article. Pianoguy 03:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the factual accuracy of this article- as I have been researching the term 10/40 window it seems that it is only within the Luis Bush camp that the term refers to a supposed correlation between Christianity and poverty. As I will demonstrate later, no such correlation exists and no respected scientist has ever tried to make this claim, hence it cannot be included on wikipedia. For most people, the 10/40 window seems to refer to an area of the world that contains a high percentage of non-Christians, and as such, it is an easy area for evangelists to focus missionary activity upon. The rewrite of the article will focus mainly on this aspect of the window and will eliminate the economic aspect. Pianoguy 03:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
There are several counterexamples to the claim that there is a correlation between Christianity and economic prosperity, some of which I have already discussed and some of which I have not. Firstly, there are many countries that are economically prosperous and have little history of Christianity: most notably Japan, China, Singapore, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Israel, South Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwain, and others. Secondly, Europe, while it does have a history of Christianity, currently has one of the highest percentages of atheists and agnostics in the world, along with one of the strongest economies. Thirdly, South America has a high percentage of Christians and a rather weak economy (especially when contrasted with the non-Christian nations with strong economies in the 10/40 window, i.e. Japan, Saudia Arabia, et. al). Fourthly, especially in Africa, there has been little to no historical correlation with the introduction of Christianity to an improved economy. While sub-Saharan Africa has seen an increase in Christianity in recent years, the economy has gotten much worse. Fifthly, in supposedly Christian nations there is a strong correlation between Christianity and economic prosperity- but in the opposite direction. In the United States, for example, New England, California, and the Pacific Northwest are home to both the most properous areas economically and the highest percentage of atheists and non-Christians, whereas the considerably more religious South and Midwest are poorer economically. This is also true in Europe: traditionally atheistic Scandanavia, France, and Germany have much stronger economies than the more religious Italy, Spain, Portugal, and Eastern Europe. Pianoguy 03:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I need to add that it is not my duty to provide these counterexamples, as the burden for proving a theory falls on the person asserting that the theory is true, in accordance with traditional scientific process and Wikipedia standards. Pianoguy 03:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
The article has tried to cite statistics that supposedly document this correlation, although few to none of these statistics come from reliable sources. Most importantly, the article does not account for any of the cases described above. The many strong economies within the window are dismissed as "anomalies" as though Japan and China, two of the strongest economies in the world, can be categorized this way. Europe is explained as having "access to Christian resources," a term which appears subjective and unmeasurable. Even if this explains the case of Europe, it does not account for growing access to Christian resources in many areas of the world, which have not seen a corresponding increase in economic prosperity that seems necessary to prove the existence of such a correlation. Pianoguy 03:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
In light of tremendous opposing evidence, and unsatisfactory supporting evidence, it becomes necessary to consider the removal of such information. If it is deemed necessary to resupply the article, more writing can be added, but it will need to be strictly documented in terms of reliable sources, which has been unsatisfactory up to this point in time. Pianoguy 03:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
By the way, you have also inverted the logic of the correlation. The facts highlighted by the 10/40 Window analysis are not of Christianity and prosperity. It is lack of access to Christian resources correlated with poverty and low quality of life. They are not the same. Here's an example from India. The outcastes of India are held in place by a variety of factors; many would argue that much of this has to do with the upper classes enjoying the "benefit" of a slave class. One of the more eloquent is the "Tocqueville" of India, Vishal Mangalwadi. In The Quest for Freedom and Dignity: Caste, conversion and cultural revolution" [1] he argues passionately that 'Caste, karma, and reincarnation created today's Hindu hierarchy, but caste cannot coexist with democracy. Democracy, built on the biblical principles of justice and equality, is driving Dalits and other lower caste Hindus to rise up against 3,000 years of Hindu caste-driven "apartheid."' It is Christians who have been bringing this realization to India for over 100 years, beginning with William Carey. Mr Pete 16:05, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
My point: Escaping from such bondage is not a guarantee of riches by any means, but over time it brings a quality of life that none can deny. The same is true in many many parts of the world. The correlation is of escape from bondage, not entrance into wealth. Escape from poverty, death and disease, not entry into a life of ease. Mr Pete 16:05, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
(I happen to believe that even Europe and the USA, having forgotten their foundations, will not long survive without being answerable to a "higher being." Historians have seen this for a long time. What is happening today is, in that sense, no different from long ago. But that's off-topic to this article. We don't need to posit nor prove the "why" and "wherefor". We have a simple set of analytical facts that produced a simple outcome.) Mr Pete 15:10, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I want to especially emphasize the point about history: if over the last 15+ years the 10/40 Window has seen a vast decline of poverty or improvement in quality of life, then at least for the sake of this article one is obligated to find published references that consider the extent to which the Christian message and resources have had anything to do with it. If the economies are better, that's great. Is that further validation or a repudiation of the 10/40 Window concept? Do we need to look at additional factors suggested by PianoGuy concerns, such as rate of change, imminent decline, or any of a host of other influences? In any case, we must look at the situation today as historically very different from the situation in the 1980's/1990. Mr Pete 16:05, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This section's factual accuracy is
disputed. (March 2008) |
The entire reference section is based on Christian sources and is therefore POV, with the exception of the World Factbook, and the Time Magazine article, which consists only of a map of the region with two sentences describing it. This article requires more non-biased sources.
In addition, the reference section is extremely confusing and needs to be cleaned, footnotes should link directly to the source being quoted. "See above sources" is unacceptable, especially when making highly controversial statements. Pianoguy 00:26, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This section's factual accuracy is
disputed. (March 2008) |
I have struck the sentence that dismissed the entire area as "econmically backwards" (an undefinable term and one that no economist would use). This needs to be rewritten more objectively. Certainly some of the area could be said to be "economically backwards," but this does not account for the many advanced economies in the area such as Greece, Portugal, Saudi Arabia, Hong Kong, Singapore, China, all in addition to Japan, to name just a few.
Of course, the entire article overlooks the fact that South America is extremely Christian and is "economically backwards" and Europe is extremely atheistic and has a strong economy.
At what point, scientifically, does one class an economy as "economically backwards"? Pianoguy 20:33, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I am striking the references to the 10/40 area as having the "highest area of socioeconomic problems in the world." Following one of the links provided by the author, the Wikipedia article on the Human Development Index, one can easily see that the area of greatest economic suffering is not the 10/40 window but Africa, specifically sub-Saharan Africa. The 10/40 window does encompass part of this area, but if a window were made to encompass the area of greatest human suffering in the world it would not correspond to the 10/40 window. This makes this statement scientifically indefensible. Pianoguy 00:50, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I am also striking the reference to South Korea as a strong Christian nation. A visit to the Wikipedia article religion in South Korea shows clearly that 86% of the population is non-Christian. Pianoguy 00:50, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
The term "access to Christian resources" needs to be defined. Religious statistics show Europe as having the highest percentage of non-believers in the world, yet it is implied in the article that Europe is economically prosperous because it has "access to Christianity." This doesn't make any sense even from a theological standpoint, one would suppose that God would be even more angry at Europe for having deserted the faith and would punish them accordingly. Pianoguy 00:50, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This section's factual accuracy is
disputed. (March 2008) |
This article has serious neutrality issues. Attempting to correlate a lack of Christianity with "increased human suffering" (whatever THAT means) is irresponsible at best and racist at worst. This article needs heavy editing. Pianoguy 01:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Questions: Pianoguy has requested specific citations for three elements in the introduction. This raises two questions for me about Wikipedia "standard" practice (whatever that is)...
In this case, the referenced material made use of data from standard nation-level sources (e.g. UN, etc). Those sources are cited in the Wikipedia article. Yet a reviewer (Pianoguy) wants further citations in support of this article's summary statement. It is not clear that further details would either help make this a better encyclopedic entry, nor is it clear that adding all that data would ameliorate Pianoguy's concerns. Mr Pete 19:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not an expert on Wikipedia guidelines, but I've got to say that calling a third of the world's population "Unevangelized Peoples" seems questionable. It sounds just as bad as calling them "Infidels" or something. Perhaps 'Non-Christians' or even just "demographics for the 10/40 window, by religion:"?
Pasta Salad 06:39, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
While I agree that it can be viewed as derogatory, your suggestions don't imply the same thing. Evangelism quite literally means "spreading the good news", so people who have heard the "good news of Jesus Christ" without converting I believe are considered evangelized. That is why the numbers are much lower than the population in the region as a whole. Viewed in this context I don't think it's an offensive term, but if there are less inflammatory alternatives with the same meaning I'm open to it changing.
Senor fjord 23:21, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
people who have heard the "good news of Jesus Christ" without converting I believe are considered evangelized.
That's correct.
Complicating it even further, the traditional demographic sources are census-based. This leads to cultural measurements (e.g. "if you're European or American then of course you're Christian"). As a result, it's quite possible to be a follower of Jesus without leaving Islam. Apparently, there are even "Messianic Mosques"!
Mr Pete 17:48, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
A better way to call this would be "Non-white" world, and realize that vast majority of European populations aren't particuarly that religious at this point. Just admit it, it's about racism.
Actually, it would more accurately be called: "non-European", (as the Hispanics aren't exactly white). However, there is a significant portion of (black) Africa, that isn't included. So I guess "non-European" wouldn't that good of a term either.
Whoever made the above comment is seriously uninformed. Christianity ceased to be predominantly even semi-European many decades ago.
I'm reverting several recent edits, as they are non-factual:
Mr Pete 18:02, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Reverting more edits:
North and South Korea are both in the Window. This is apparently hard for people to believe. Please check out the Wikipedia map for North Korea. Note that South Korea is completely below 40 degrees and inside the Window. Note that most of North Korea is below 40 degrees and inside the Window.
The population statistics are not about evangelized/unevangelized. They are a count of non-Christians.
Please, if you are motivated to re-edit these issues, first talk about it on this page! All recent edits have introduced errors. Check the original sources cited in the article.
Mr Pete 11:22, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Recent edits have introduced a needlessly controversial perspective not found in the 10/40 research.
The user at 75.37.25.3 introduced the idea that the "Christian" part of the analysis was based on percentages of Christians with a goal of proselytizing. Yet the cited study used overall investment figures, not numbers of Christians: less than 7% of Christian resources were going to that part of the world. For example, World Vision, a large children-at-risk development organization with UN ties, made some significant shifts in their investment strategy as a result of the 10/40 research (citation needed if possible.)
Mr Pete 03:53, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I designed and uploaded a map that shows the actual countries that this "window" was designed to encompass, I felt it would better illustrate than a dry list. Danthemankhan 04:04, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Various people seem to be intent on removing South Korea from the Window. South Korea is only one of many "anomalies" that help prove the point that the Window is simply a helpful generalization. It would be nice if this could be appreciated!
I've created a new paragraph that describes some of the interesting anomalies, including South Korea. I hope this information will help make the article acceptable!
-- Mr Pete 09:16, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Amazing how this happens over and over. Both Koreas, North and South are 10/40 Window nations. That's because most of North Korea's land mass is inside the 10/40 Window, and all of South Korea is inside. Folks, it's a geographic definition. Yes, South Korea is majority Christian and North Korea is not. That's ok.
Mr Pete 10:54, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted the recent addition of Italy to the list, and added a citation referencing the portion of the original article that provides the appropriate data. Italy is not part of the 10/40 Window. Likewise, I've corrected several other factual errors about 10/40 nations that were added in recent edits:
Mr Pete 03:13, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
More reverts. The newly-edited summary suggested that India is part of Central Asia (it is not) and needlessly complicated the description of what is or is not in the Window area. Simplified to point to Wikipedia articles covering each of the sub-regions of the Asian continent.
Mr Pete 05:03, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Tagged it {{ Primarysources}} as it even says it's been verified against primary sources. We really need some secondary sources here else it slips into the world of neologisms and WP:OR. Ttiotsw 15:24, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Does all of West Africa count here? I only ask because some of it is technically Western Hemisphere. Young Skywalker 06:03, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
This has been tagged as having no secondary sources for quite a while. It's simply a copy (more or less) of what Luis Bush has got on this topic. Who else uses this term ?. I feel it should be merged into the Luis Bush article unless we have cites from reliable sources as to who else uses this. Ttiotsw 08:04, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
A simple Google search would prove that it is not just Bush using this term. Time Magazine had a major story on the phenomenon in 2003, and it is common coin among missiologists, pastors, and people interested in missions around the world. Bush may have coined the term, but it is a far larger concept than just Bush at this moment. Robert Johnson 22:58, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I have done some NPOV editing on this article, but even still the article seems to imply that there is a causal relation between poverty and lack of Christianity. This problem could be remedied by including material indicating whether the inventor of the 10/40 Window actually posits such a causal relationship, and/or summarizing critical views about the utility of the 10/40 Window. — Psychonaut 02:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Propose to change the term "Atheist" to "non-religious" and link to Irreligion. We're comparing religions and atheism isn't a religion per-se; if we want to compare like for like we would have to specify the actual moral/ethical worldview e.g. secular humanist or rationalist etc and I would imagine that no statistic exists for that. Vietnam as an example the census just said that 'x' percent were non-religious. As atheism has risen during the post-Enlightenment and goes hand-in-hand with the rise of the scientific method, I would say that in fact the lack of atheism across all these countries is a proxy for the poverty as much as there is a lack of science and technology to make these people solve their unique living problems and generate wealth. As we have seen with Vietnam it was the more recent free-market reforms that have pushed up Vietnam not the Christian missionary work that dates back so many years (The Christians in American certainly helped the message with the supply of holy carpet bombs). There is nothing intrinsically Christian about economic theories of markets. Ttiotsw 08:42, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
For the sake of Wikipedia and controversial articles...
Gold Seal Campaign:
What do you think of this? The administrators of Wikipedia establish a Gold Seal campaign for certain articles. This “Gold Seal” will indicate for a given article it’s factuality and lack of vandalism. Basically it will show..
1-This page is properly cited.
2-This page has been verified.
This will be an important step for Wikipedia. It means students, high school included will be able to cite Wikipedia in their work. As of now many schools do not allow students to this.
As for editing an article, It will still be allowed yet a person can easily revert to the Gold Sealed, verified page on Wikipedia. This will be an amazing step for Wikipedia, though difficult, it will allow readers to know for sure what they are reading is true. It will surely improve Wikipedia’s image in the public sphere. Of course someone will have to organize this, but in then it will be sufficient use of labour. — mattawa
The 10/40 window is primarily a way of recognizing that nations within this geographic area represent the primary area of the world: 1) that is not Christian; and 2) that is dominated by one of three other major religions. Thus, if you believe that Christianity is the "true" religion - then identifying this window may be a overwhelming motivating factor to send missionaries to in order to "present" the Gospel to those who have not heard. This area is primarily Hindu, Buddhist and Muslim. I have listened to speakers discuss this for OVER a decade, and no one I have ever heard has presented this as anything other than a missions issue. Alleviating poverty, etc., is a major focus of some large Christian organizations (ie Samaritan's Purse), but it diffuses the primary focus of the "10/40' window phrase to bring in ancilliary issues to a phrase that is a basis of focusing evangelistic resources. Even if India continues on it's way to becoming an economic powerhouse and becomes wealthy, it will still be viewed by conservative Christians who used this phrase as being in the 10/40 window because it is the world's largest Hindu nation and one of the largest Muslim populations centers - the same can be said about Dubai. No one will remove these nations and adjust the window if they remain nations where Jesus has not been presented to the population. You may be opposed to this or be in favor of this mission's focus, but it's not about poverty or education (and may not be about whether the nations respond positively to the message about Jesus) - but it's about presenting the message to "people groups" that have not heard due to an overwhelming saturation by another religious group. Any focus on poverty as part of this is secondary. And the POV is going to have Christian resources, but this is an important article, whatever your religious views. A group of South Koreans just got freed in Afghanistan (those that were not killed) - understanding the 10/40 window as it is viewed by missiologists is critical to understanding why South Koreans were there in such numbers. If the muslims had a "window", it may be Europe and North America - it would not be inaccurate even if the sources for the POV were Islamic - it would explain their mission activities and be newsworthy. Last, the "10/40 window" is very, very similar to President Bush's "Axis of Evil" concept - a way of making a simplifying statement that our "sound bite" world can get its head around and understand. (I hate to link this to a political party's use of a phrase, especially when he is increasingly unpopular - but geographic word phrases are not limited to religious issues.) It needs to remain focused on the primary issue - South Koreans are not primarily dieing in Afghanistan for better education for the Afghans or even to allevaite poverty. With all due respect (and I have been criticized for some of my articles, too), this article is too diffused. Clinton said "it's the economy, stupid" in the 1992 campaign and this phrase should be "it's missions" (delete stupid - it's not Christian enough). Having said that, I am not going to edit it. It's tough to write this stuff accurate, and I respect everyone taking on this hot button issue. I will go back to my little corner outside the 10/40 window now. -- Baxterguy 16:03, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Why are countries like Portugal, Greece, and the Philippines (where Christianity is very well established) -- not to mention Ethiopia, with its long Christian-dominated history -- being indiscriminately lumped together with Libya and Pakistan? Frankly, I question the usefulness of any concept which does not meaningfully distinguish between Libya and the Philippines... AnonMoos ( talk) 12:30, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
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