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""Back In The U.S.S.R." was released as the single off this album, ending Joel's record-setting streak of 39 Billboard top-40 singles from the start of a career written by the artist who performed it."
I'm sorry, I can't understand the second part of this. Can someone please explain it to me? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.168.34.216 ( talk) 07:56, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
I've moved this article from KOHUEPT to its technically-correct Cyrillic title of КОНЦЕРТ. I'm not entirely confident that this was the right thing to do, though; Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) suggests that the correct approach would be to transliterate the Cyrillic back into the Latin alphabet, but I don't know how to do that correctly (just guessing: "Kontsert"?). Also, since the album title itself is not actually in Russian, but rather is a Cyrillic transliteration of an English word (according to the article), transliterating it back into Latin letters seems a bit peculiar. Suggestions from other editors would be appreciated. -- Russ Blau (talk) 20:00, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was move to Kohuept. This was discussed at WP:UE (see Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(use_English)/Archive 7#Borderline case?) and the current wording "Do not use a systematically transliterated name if there is a common English form of the name". This was to allow for special cases like Снова в СССР. It may be that the sentence "Names not originally in a Latin alphabet, as with Greek, Chinese or Russian, must be transliterated into characters generally intelligible to literate speakers of English." needs altering for cases like this, but until it is then I agree with the closure of Снова в СССР. Also even if the rules were changed I doubt if it would effect this page as a Google Search of [Концерт Billy Joel -wikipedia] [Kohuept Billy Joel -wikipedia] shows that that the latter is 10 times more common than the former and very much more common that [Kontsert Billy Joel -wikipedia]; and just as important, it is not just blogs that use Kohuept, but reliable sources like the Rolling Stone. -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 16:08, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Концерт → Kontsert — Titles should be in the Latin alphabet. — Biruitorul ( talk) 23:14, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
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Wikipedia's naming conventions.Citations in favor of "Kohuept"
What a laughingstock. Just because some sources don't know what cyrillic is and won't care with its correct transliteration, we now have this aberration on what is supposed to be an accurate encyclopedia. "Kohuept" is nothing; it is not the subject of the article; it is not an English word; it is not how the subject is supposed to be read; it's not even pronounceable. How the above discussion was closed in favor of this I cannot comprehend. Hús ö nd 22:50, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
This is an outrage! Not only does "Kohuept" not make any sense, but I see no consensus to move here. Admiral Norton ( talk) 15:39, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
This should definitely be at Концерт. While the naming conventions state to use English, the spirit of the convention means to use English when there is an acceptable English title. Meaning that names of cities should use whatever we call them in English, titles of books and whatnot are to be in English when we commonly refer to them as an English title. The title of this album is purposely Cyrillic -- it's an English word rendered in the Cyrillic alphabet. Therefore, the title of the album is, in fact, English. If we want to use the Roman alphabet, this should properly be at Concert (Billy Joel album). Kohuept should be a redirect. — Music Maker 5376 19:37, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
I fail to see the above discussion as a clear non-controvesial consensus for move to 'Kohuept'. In my opinion, since the title was purposedly rendered in Russian, it should be treated like any Russian title; should either be 'Kontsert' (transliteration), 'Концерт'/'КОНЦЕРТ' (in Russian, recognizing the original intention to impose a certain artistic effect), or 'Concert (Billy Joel album)' (translation), in this particular order of reference. Constructs like 'COHUEPT' were only acceptable in a world where anything beyond English in ASCII code page was technically impossible to maintain in electronic and print media; I suppose we're well past this point. --
Dmitry (
talk •
contibs )
11:04, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was no consensus to move. Aervanath ( talk) 16:07, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Kohuept → Kontsert — Pace the above requested move discussion, having this article at "Kohuept" completely misses the point. It is a basic fact that the name of the album is not Kohuept, no matter what a bunch of music databases say. The name of the album is Концерт, the Russian word for "concert", which transliterates to "Kontsert". Dmitry makes a good point that most uses of "Kohuept" probably come from a time when it was much more difficult than today to use Cyrillic characters on the Internet or on magazines.- Sceptre ( talk) 18:00, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Another point to make is that I cannot think of an article where Russian words in Cyrillic have been transposed to their Latin look-a-likes. For example, Moskva is a disambiguation page, Mockba is not. Sankt-Peterburg is a redirect, Cahkt-Netepbypr is not. Rossiya is a disambugiation page, Poccnr is not. The only one that exists is a redirect: Choba b cccp to Снова в СССР. Hopefully we can fix this problem soon. Sceptre ( talk) 18:00, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
A list of citations in favor of "Kohuept":
A list of citations in favor of "KOHUEPT"
What a (sad) joke! I don't speak Russian, but I can tell at first sight that the letter "Ц" is not a "U" -- doesn't actually look too similar if you actually look at it for a moment. But apparently that's asking too much of Wikipedia writers (and we're talking about writers, not readers -- readers would be well served with a redirect). What a shame for a so-called "encyclopedia"! But I guess with these views I'm a commie and I should move to the Tse Tse Tse Pee ... 88.65.123.101 ( talk) 21:40, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
So the first move (from correct, or acceptable, to wrong) was made although there was no consensus, and the second move (from wrong to at least somewhat better) was rejected because there was no consensus! Very logical! And although cyrillic characters are technically possible, they're not allowed because of some rules. And a correct transliteration is also said to be forbidden by the rules, in favor of the only actually wrong alternative. If these things are really what the WP rules say (I highly doubt it, but I can't argue with TPTB), then the rules urgently need to be fixed!
For me, it's a sad day for WP. I have defended WP against criticism and even donated to WM, but I won't do this anymore in the face of such stupidity. I'll continue to use WP as an (unreliable) source of information, but every time I'll listen to this album will remind of this joke. So long and thanks for all the f***! 88.65.123.101 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:48, 14 June 2009 (UTC).
No consensus? Can you elaborate? Consensus isn't just an up-and-down vote. The "most commonly used name in sources = article name" argument wasn't as strong as it seemed, given that the sources are demonstratably wrong. And hell, there is a six-three split for the Russian title (as in, one oppose !voter explicitly supported the Russian title, shifting the balance in terms of raw numbers). Sceptre ( talk) 18:05, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Also, it wouldn't be quite as ridiculous if there hadn't been first a move in the opposite direction without consensus, and now "no consensus" is cited as a reason to keep it. Well, thanks for pissing me off from WP (see my comments on the article's talk page)! 88.65.123.101 ( talk) 21:58, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
May I add something: While prohibitions against OR prevent us from divining the intent of the producers on our own, if we knew for sure that the Cyrillic was for decoration, I would say that Kontsert would be a sensible choice. The fact that the Cyrillic is decoration would mean that the actual name (pronounced "Kontsert") would in principle have nothing to do with how it is written down.
WRT the discussion of "Nazi" rather than its German name, I think the argument could be attacked on the grounds that "Nazi" is not intended to replace the proper noun for the said party. It is a "corruption" in the sense that it is a contraction or an abbreviation because the word is used in different contexts to the full "Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei". 118.90.89.74 ( talk) 04:01, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Now that album titles are italicized by default, the title of this page looks like "Kohuepm" which is even less recognizable to English-speakers than the Cyrillic title "Концерт". May I suggest that we use "italic title=no" in the infobox to at least give English-speaking users a chance to recognize the title in Russian when they see it? -- Metropolitan90 (talk) 16:41, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
I removed the following sentence relating to Joel's single release of " Back in the U.S.S.R.": It ended his record-setting streak of 39 Billboard Top 40 singles, from the start of a career, written by the artist who performed it.
There were three reasons why I removed it:
So whatever the sentence was supposed to mean, it doesn't seem to have been accurate. On the other hand, I kept the following sentence in the article, because, as far as I can tell, it is accurate: Joel's cover of The Beatles' " Back in the U.S.S.R." became the first single released by Joel that was written by someone other than himself. -- Metropolitan90 (talk) 01:20, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: move to Kontsert. -- tariqabjotu 06:54, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
Концерт → Kohuept – The 2009 closure is in error, as there was no intermediate requested move discussion between #1 (2008) and #2 (2009) and #2 closed as no consensus, that should automatically result in the reinstatement of the closure result of #1, as the bold move wade made against an existing consensus, and the #2 move request did not end up supporting it; WP:BRD. Further, WP:UE/ WP:AT, we do not use Cyrillic in article titles, they must be transliterated or translated. The existing references use "Kohuept" and "Konstert", not "Концерт". Relisted. BDD ( talk) 18:07, 22 July 2013 (UTC) -- 76.65.128.222 ( talk) 10:59, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
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""Back In The U.S.S.R." was released as the single off this album, ending Joel's record-setting streak of 39 Billboard top-40 singles from the start of a career written by the artist who performed it."
I'm sorry, I can't understand the second part of this. Can someone please explain it to me? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.168.34.216 ( talk) 07:56, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
I've moved this article from KOHUEPT to its technically-correct Cyrillic title of КОНЦЕРТ. I'm not entirely confident that this was the right thing to do, though; Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) suggests that the correct approach would be to transliterate the Cyrillic back into the Latin alphabet, but I don't know how to do that correctly (just guessing: "Kontsert"?). Also, since the album title itself is not actually in Russian, but rather is a Cyrillic transliteration of an English word (according to the article), transliterating it back into Latin letters seems a bit peculiar. Suggestions from other editors would be appreciated. -- Russ Blau (talk) 20:00, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was move to Kohuept. This was discussed at WP:UE (see Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(use_English)/Archive 7#Borderline case?) and the current wording "Do not use a systematically transliterated name if there is a common English form of the name". This was to allow for special cases like Снова в СССР. It may be that the sentence "Names not originally in a Latin alphabet, as with Greek, Chinese or Russian, must be transliterated into characters generally intelligible to literate speakers of English." needs altering for cases like this, but until it is then I agree with the closure of Снова в СССР. Also even if the rules were changed I doubt if it would effect this page as a Google Search of [Концерт Billy Joel -wikipedia] [Kohuept Billy Joel -wikipedia] shows that that the latter is 10 times more common than the former and very much more common that [Kontsert Billy Joel -wikipedia]; and just as important, it is not just blogs that use Kohuept, but reliable sources like the Rolling Stone. -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 16:08, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Концерт → Kontsert — Titles should be in the Latin alphabet. — Biruitorul ( talk) 23:14, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.Citations in favor of "Kohuept"
What a laughingstock. Just because some sources don't know what cyrillic is and won't care with its correct transliteration, we now have this aberration on what is supposed to be an accurate encyclopedia. "Kohuept" is nothing; it is not the subject of the article; it is not an English word; it is not how the subject is supposed to be read; it's not even pronounceable. How the above discussion was closed in favor of this I cannot comprehend. Hús ö nd 22:50, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
This is an outrage! Not only does "Kohuept" not make any sense, but I see no consensus to move here. Admiral Norton ( talk) 15:39, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
This should definitely be at Концерт. While the naming conventions state to use English, the spirit of the convention means to use English when there is an acceptable English title. Meaning that names of cities should use whatever we call them in English, titles of books and whatnot are to be in English when we commonly refer to them as an English title. The title of this album is purposely Cyrillic -- it's an English word rendered in the Cyrillic alphabet. Therefore, the title of the album is, in fact, English. If we want to use the Roman alphabet, this should properly be at Concert (Billy Joel album). Kohuept should be a redirect. — Music Maker 5376 19:37, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
I fail to see the above discussion as a clear non-controvesial consensus for move to 'Kohuept'. In my opinion, since the title was purposedly rendered in Russian, it should be treated like any Russian title; should either be 'Kontsert' (transliteration), 'Концерт'/'КОНЦЕРТ' (in Russian, recognizing the original intention to impose a certain artistic effect), or 'Concert (Billy Joel album)' (translation), in this particular order of reference. Constructs like 'COHUEPT' were only acceptable in a world where anything beyond English in ASCII code page was technically impossible to maintain in electronic and print media; I suppose we're well past this point. --
Dmitry (
talk •
contibs )
11:04, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was no consensus to move. Aervanath ( talk) 16:07, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Kohuept → Kontsert — Pace the above requested move discussion, having this article at "Kohuept" completely misses the point. It is a basic fact that the name of the album is not Kohuept, no matter what a bunch of music databases say. The name of the album is Концерт, the Russian word for "concert", which transliterates to "Kontsert". Dmitry makes a good point that most uses of "Kohuept" probably come from a time when it was much more difficult than today to use Cyrillic characters on the Internet or on magazines.- Sceptre ( talk) 18:00, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Another point to make is that I cannot think of an article where Russian words in Cyrillic have been transposed to their Latin look-a-likes. For example, Moskva is a disambiguation page, Mockba is not. Sankt-Peterburg is a redirect, Cahkt-Netepbypr is not. Rossiya is a disambugiation page, Poccnr is not. The only one that exists is a redirect: Choba b cccp to Снова в СССР. Hopefully we can fix this problem soon. Sceptre ( talk) 18:00, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
A list of citations in favor of "Kohuept":
A list of citations in favor of "KOHUEPT"
What a (sad) joke! I don't speak Russian, but I can tell at first sight that the letter "Ц" is not a "U" -- doesn't actually look too similar if you actually look at it for a moment. But apparently that's asking too much of Wikipedia writers (and we're talking about writers, not readers -- readers would be well served with a redirect). What a shame for a so-called "encyclopedia"! But I guess with these views I'm a commie and I should move to the Tse Tse Tse Pee ... 88.65.123.101 ( talk) 21:40, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
So the first move (from correct, or acceptable, to wrong) was made although there was no consensus, and the second move (from wrong to at least somewhat better) was rejected because there was no consensus! Very logical! And although cyrillic characters are technically possible, they're not allowed because of some rules. And a correct transliteration is also said to be forbidden by the rules, in favor of the only actually wrong alternative. If these things are really what the WP rules say (I highly doubt it, but I can't argue with TPTB), then the rules urgently need to be fixed!
For me, it's a sad day for WP. I have defended WP against criticism and even donated to WM, but I won't do this anymore in the face of such stupidity. I'll continue to use WP as an (unreliable) source of information, but every time I'll listen to this album will remind of this joke. So long and thanks for all the f***! 88.65.123.101 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:48, 14 June 2009 (UTC).
No consensus? Can you elaborate? Consensus isn't just an up-and-down vote. The "most commonly used name in sources = article name" argument wasn't as strong as it seemed, given that the sources are demonstratably wrong. And hell, there is a six-three split for the Russian title (as in, one oppose !voter explicitly supported the Russian title, shifting the balance in terms of raw numbers). Sceptre ( talk) 18:05, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Also, it wouldn't be quite as ridiculous if there hadn't been first a move in the opposite direction without consensus, and now "no consensus" is cited as a reason to keep it. Well, thanks for pissing me off from WP (see my comments on the article's talk page)! 88.65.123.101 ( talk) 21:58, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
May I add something: While prohibitions against OR prevent us from divining the intent of the producers on our own, if we knew for sure that the Cyrillic was for decoration, I would say that Kontsert would be a sensible choice. The fact that the Cyrillic is decoration would mean that the actual name (pronounced "Kontsert") would in principle have nothing to do with how it is written down.
WRT the discussion of "Nazi" rather than its German name, I think the argument could be attacked on the grounds that "Nazi" is not intended to replace the proper noun for the said party. It is a "corruption" in the sense that it is a contraction or an abbreviation because the word is used in different contexts to the full "Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei". 118.90.89.74 ( talk) 04:01, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Now that album titles are italicized by default, the title of this page looks like "Kohuepm" which is even less recognizable to English-speakers than the Cyrillic title "Концерт". May I suggest that we use "italic title=no" in the infobox to at least give English-speaking users a chance to recognize the title in Russian when they see it? -- Metropolitan90 (talk) 16:41, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
I removed the following sentence relating to Joel's single release of " Back in the U.S.S.R.": It ended his record-setting streak of 39 Billboard Top 40 singles, from the start of a career, written by the artist who performed it.
There were three reasons why I removed it:
So whatever the sentence was supposed to mean, it doesn't seem to have been accurate. On the other hand, I kept the following sentence in the article, because, as far as I can tell, it is accurate: Joel's cover of The Beatles' " Back in the U.S.S.R." became the first single released by Joel that was written by someone other than himself. -- Metropolitan90 (talk) 01:20, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: move to Kontsert. -- tariqabjotu 06:54, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
Концерт → Kohuept – The 2009 closure is in error, as there was no intermediate requested move discussion between #1 (2008) and #2 (2009) and #2 closed as no consensus, that should automatically result in the reinstatement of the closure result of #1, as the bold move wade made against an existing consensus, and the #2 move request did not end up supporting it; WP:BRD. Further, WP:UE/ WP:AT, we do not use Cyrillic in article titles, they must be transliterated or translated. The existing references use "Kohuept" and "Konstert", not "Концерт". Relisted. BDD ( talk) 18:07, 22 July 2013 (UTC) -- 76.65.128.222 ( talk) 10:59, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
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Wikipedia's policy on article titles.Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Kontsert. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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