![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
|
|
Ajd: Angr's edit was correct. You should give some time (a week at least?) for an editor to provide references before you go hacking away at something like that. ANAE is not the last word LiuLanDi 07:09, 19 October 2006 (UTC).
LiuLanDi, what is your intention in adding these links? If you want to back up your claim that "American Broadcast English" has the distribution of æ-tensing that you say it does by providing audio of Walter Cronkite and Johnny Carson speaking, that's still original research. It sounds like a great way to gather data to write your own paper to be published in a peer-reviewed venue, but that's not what Wikipedia is for. — An gr 09:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
ANAE says in one place (I'm looking at the crappy online demo version) that æ is tensed before front nasals. "In New York City and the Mid-Atlantic States, short-a is split into tense (raised, fronted, ingliding) and lax (low front) categories by a complex set of phonetic, grammatical and lexical conditions. The core group of tense vowels is found before front nasals (ham, man, stand) and voiceless fricatives (half, last, bath) in closed syllables. Function words like am, can) remain lax." I want to edit that paragraph about the mid-Atlantic tensing to reflect this. Does anyone know of a source that documents tensing before /ŋ/? I can't imagine someone saying "hang" like [heəŋ], except maybe in the North where they usually tense. LiuLanDi 15:15, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
My vowel in man is probably between the vowels in met and mat. I've never measured the formants though. With [ŋ] there's also the voiced velar phenomenon, where I have [eg] for egg and [leg] for leg (but I dont have this vowel for peg, beg, keg). It would be nice if someone pointed out a reference that summarizes this. peace – ishwar (speak) 04:39, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Then can you revise the sentence in [ [2]] that reads: "Geographically the most widespread is the 'nasal system'...."
Also, could you please insert inline numbered citations? Or if you think that's going to be too big a project for this article, could you insert inline citations in the style (Author, year), and page number for bigger works like ANAE? I think it would greatly improve the article. LiuLanDi 06:02, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I clarified the intro sentence for the nasal system to reflect your explanation above. LiuLanDi 04:06, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
According to the article:
In my experience, "Mass" for "Massachusetts" and (especially) "ran" often do have /eə/ in New York (as in my own speech). (/æ/ does seem to be regular in "and" and in "Massachusetts.")
38.117.238.82 03:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
What does long æ (æː) sound like? (It's hard to find in English IPA charts as it's not standard.) Njál 15:01, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
The example given for a distinction in "jam" is interesting, but I'm not sure it really applies only to fruit preserves. I think someone who is "caught in a jam" might have the same somewhat lenghthened æː (relative to "jam it in there") - but that's by American standards, which might be different, and I'm not sure about it. 70.15.116.59 ( talk) 16:56, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure if the actual two vowels are exactly the same, but the split is the same as described. The only minimal pair I can think of is "have" and "halve". Rhyming with "have": dad, fad, had, lad, tad. Rhyming with "halve": bad, mad, pad, sad. (When Garrison Keilor's radio actors try to do a NY accent, they use the "mad" pronunciation for all such words, which isn't accurate. Probably using a Chicago pronunciation.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.242.72.225 ( talk) 21:33, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
Rather has the broad A in Southeastern English English, right? I'm pretty sure I've heard it pronounced that way, but it's not mentioned in the article. 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 23:26, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
'Half' pronounced 'haff' is certainly traditionally heard across the North, eg 'haff past ten'. I'm sure a flat A in 'rather' is traditional in Yorkshire as it is in 'father' Vauxhall1964 ( talk) 00:17, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
I am really confused about the bad-lad split. I thought the vowel in bad was always lengthened when compared to the vowel in bat; is it lengthened even more with this split? I thought there was always a fortis vs. lenis distinction or voiceless vs. voiced distinction even in American English to some extent. Why wouldn't lad also be lengthened compared to bat? Thegryseone ( talk) 15:18, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
This is more of a dialectal survey than a phonological history. The title implies that you would find information on, for example, what happened to the Old English /æ/ in Middle English; everything discussed in this article is from the past two or three centuries. - Branddobbe ( talk) 07:22, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Considering that this is an article with a lot to do with pronunciation, a few audio clips may be very helpful for those who are not very familiar with the IPA and such. Monkeyface13 ( talk) 03:45, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
I have changed the name of the section from the capital digraph to the lower case IPA symbol, since IPA letters don't have capital forms. But the question remains, should we hyphenate æ-tensing or not? I slightly favor hyphenation, but what I really care about is consistency. If anyone's got an opinion they should edit the article so the hyphenated or unhyphenated term is used consistently. μηδείς ( talk) 21:03, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
This article sometimes uses the familiar terms 'short' and 'long' in relation to vowels, but at other times uses 'flat' and 'broad' apparently with the same meanings. I have never read any modern work of phonetics that uses the latter terms (except that 'flat' used to be used as a distinctive feature label with a completely different meaning). I would be glad of a reference to published work using 'flat' and 'broad' in a scientific way. If there isn't one, I would like to remove them from the article. Too often these terms crop up in ill-informed journalistic writing about local accents. RoachPeter ( talk) 10:33, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
"Broad /æð/ in blather, gather, slather"
That "broad" should be "flat", right? — JerryFriedman (Talk) 19:10, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
In Cockney#Typical features, it is noted that the TRAP vowel /æ/ may be raised, resulting in [ɛ] (or [ɛɪ]), and surprisingly, Received Pronunciation#Historical variation notes that in RP, there used to be a similar tendency, even though the southeast, including Estuary English (often described as intermediate between RP and Cockney), preserves the [æ] realisation, and in the rest of England except East Anglia, it is even lowered to [a]. Is the raising of the TRAP vowel a southeastern innovation that was later pushed back again (say, in the course of the 20th century)? Also, is there any full-blown merger of the TRAP and DRESS vowels in any variety of English, at least for some positions (such as in Pat and pet), or is it generally avoided by raising or centralising the DRESS vowel too as in NZ English? I miss a discussion of the raising and any mergers like that here. -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 15:07, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
I can't speak for the current situation of /æ/ in Boston, but I've not seen the the western "Metropolitan"what? region's /æ/ described as such in the table:
Apart from what's already noted in California_English#Phonology, California has regularly shown to be a pure nasal split system with a shift of /æ/ before non nasal consonants in any environment, /r/ notwithstanding, to [a]
Which puts it apart from Boston, never mind that Boston is an attested marry-merry-mary split area, opposed to the merged West, which should put them in separate columns for /r/. The /r/ row itself is also missing attested variations of the split/merger English-language_vowel_changes_before_historic_/r/#Mary.E2.80.93marry.E2.80.93merry_merger
As for Oregon/Washington aka Pacific_Northwest_English, they've been shown to back /æ/ as well, along with raising of /æ/ before /g/
There's really no reason for these simple inaccuracies to be here, especially next to the complicated systems of New York/Philadelphia/Baltimore being accurately presented Traptraptrap ( talk) 08:22, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Nothing vastly better springs immediately to mind, but I'm not very happy with the title of this article. It seems to be largely about A's that might very well not be short in Modern English. W. P. Uzer ( talk) 13:00, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
Note that I have made one change in the list section. Previously, it said, "In some dialects, though, including the New York and Mid-Atlantic ones (such as spoken in Philadelphia), the "short a" sound can actually split into two entirely distinct phonemes, so that using a tense vowel rather than a lax vowel can potentially change the meanings of words or phrases." Note that this is actually inaccurate for New York English. I live in Central Jersey. And at least around here, there is a split between /eə/ and /æ/. However, no minimal pairs are formed in the split. Furthermore, when I have spoken to people New York accents, there were never any confusions between words like caf (meaning cafeteria) and calf.
On the other hand, which could be the cause of the confusion, when the short a proceeds /f/, /θ/ to a lesser extent, or /s/, it could be pronounced either way, even in the same sentence. I'll use the following sentence as an example: "A half of a mile is a half of a mile." This could be pronounced as any of these:
Personally, I feel that this is more phenomenal, and that it is interesting; but it might just be me. Over and out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.102.218.18 ( talk) 22:34, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
In that case, I am afraid I misunderstand the page. Could you, sir/ma'am, clear me up on what the classical definition of the split is? Thank you. 74.102.216.186 ( talk) 15:27, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
Now I understand. There is such a split in New York City English. Some words with an are still pronounced [æn], and others are pronounced [eən]. (There are irregularities like any, Han (as in Han Solo), etc.) As a side note, such a split both has and has not taken hold of rhotic varieties of New York English found in New Jersey. In such varieties, we actually do perceive the two to be separate sounds. However, we pronounce all of the an class words as [eən]. Finally, as your understanding is better than mine, I have one more question to ask you. In New York English, are there any examples where the use of a tense [æ] versus a lax [æ] could result in a different meaning? However, I would prefer that the example not be can (as to be able) and can (as in a metal can) for two reasons. For one, the former is usually pronounced [kɛn]. For another, this pronunciation is sometimes used to prevent it from sounding like can't. But any other would be fine. I do thank you for all of your input. 74.102.216.186 ( talk) 03:06, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
It dawned on me a few days ago. One time, I was speaking to my parents about my brother's friend Aaron, which I pronounced as eərən. However, my father thought that I said "Erin", which I would have pronounce as ɛrən. My father misunderstood me because he pronounces "Aaron" as ærən. Another good example of a minimal pair is "Mary" meəriː vs. "marry" mæˀriː. Almost all of the minimal pairs in New York English occur before r. They rarely occur before n.
Typically, New Yorkers have a three-way distinction between "Mary", "marry", and "merry". Sometimes, in the NY metropolitan area of New Jersey, especially for younger speakers, we only have a two-way distinction, pronouncing "Mary" and "marry" both as meəriː, while "merry" is still pronounced as mɛriː. I'm sorry, sir/ma'am. It dawned on me after you had already replied. 74.102.216.186 ( talk) 01:18, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
In the section describing the vowel changes before r, the pages says that [a] was lengthened before r, shifting to [aː]. Then, the page jumps right to describing the words cat and cart differing by vowel quality and length in Received Pronunciation, the former pronounced as [kæt] and the latter as [kɑːt], without ever mentioning the retracting of [aː] to [ɑ]. (The fronting of [a] to [æ] is described.) Could anybody add in a line saying when [aː] was retracted to [ɑː]? Thank you. LakeKayak ( talk) 22:37, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
I personally think these should have their own articles. They are long and significant enough for articles on their own. Have all the information about them here makes the article lengthy. I have created articles for them. Fish567 ( talk) 23:15, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
This one I am only a little curious about. And I want to see if anybody knows the answer – because I don't. Any help with this question is appreciated. LakeKayak ( talk) 01:03, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
As a native speaker of Standard or General AusE, cat [kæt] is noticeably higher/closer than cart [ka:t]. I can't say that I ever hear Aussies say caht [kat] for the feline unless they were affecting a toffee-nosed Queen's English. A low caht would likely be misheard as cut [kʌt].
To put it another way: in the triples cat–cart–cut, bat–Bart–but the cat and bat sound more distinct.
I hope we can find a reference that supports this observation and amend the table, which currently has a big tick for æ-lowering in AusE. ⁓ Pelagic ( messages ) 22:23, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
Cox and Fletcher p. 65 give /æ/, /ɐ/, /ɐ:/ for bat, but, part in AusE. ⁓ Pelagic ( messages ) 23:26, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
Ohno, I've fallen into the rabbit-hole of MD versus HCE transcription of Australian English. [3] [4] Does the frequency diagram at [5] mean that the æ–ɐ distinction is more front-back rather than height? ⁓ Pelagic ( messages ) 00:55, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
|
|
Ajd: Angr's edit was correct. You should give some time (a week at least?) for an editor to provide references before you go hacking away at something like that. ANAE is not the last word LiuLanDi 07:09, 19 October 2006 (UTC).
LiuLanDi, what is your intention in adding these links? If you want to back up your claim that "American Broadcast English" has the distribution of æ-tensing that you say it does by providing audio of Walter Cronkite and Johnny Carson speaking, that's still original research. It sounds like a great way to gather data to write your own paper to be published in a peer-reviewed venue, but that's not what Wikipedia is for. — An gr 09:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
ANAE says in one place (I'm looking at the crappy online demo version) that æ is tensed before front nasals. "In New York City and the Mid-Atlantic States, short-a is split into tense (raised, fronted, ingliding) and lax (low front) categories by a complex set of phonetic, grammatical and lexical conditions. The core group of tense vowels is found before front nasals (ham, man, stand) and voiceless fricatives (half, last, bath) in closed syllables. Function words like am, can) remain lax." I want to edit that paragraph about the mid-Atlantic tensing to reflect this. Does anyone know of a source that documents tensing before /ŋ/? I can't imagine someone saying "hang" like [heəŋ], except maybe in the North where they usually tense. LiuLanDi 15:15, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
My vowel in man is probably between the vowels in met and mat. I've never measured the formants though. With [ŋ] there's also the voiced velar phenomenon, where I have [eg] for egg and [leg] for leg (but I dont have this vowel for peg, beg, keg). It would be nice if someone pointed out a reference that summarizes this. peace – ishwar (speak) 04:39, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Then can you revise the sentence in [ [2]] that reads: "Geographically the most widespread is the 'nasal system'...."
Also, could you please insert inline numbered citations? Or if you think that's going to be too big a project for this article, could you insert inline citations in the style (Author, year), and page number for bigger works like ANAE? I think it would greatly improve the article. LiuLanDi 06:02, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I clarified the intro sentence for the nasal system to reflect your explanation above. LiuLanDi 04:06, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
According to the article:
In my experience, "Mass" for "Massachusetts" and (especially) "ran" often do have /eə/ in New York (as in my own speech). (/æ/ does seem to be regular in "and" and in "Massachusetts.")
38.117.238.82 03:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
What does long æ (æː) sound like? (It's hard to find in English IPA charts as it's not standard.) Njál 15:01, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
The example given for a distinction in "jam" is interesting, but I'm not sure it really applies only to fruit preserves. I think someone who is "caught in a jam" might have the same somewhat lenghthened æː (relative to "jam it in there") - but that's by American standards, which might be different, and I'm not sure about it. 70.15.116.59 ( talk) 16:56, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure if the actual two vowels are exactly the same, but the split is the same as described. The only minimal pair I can think of is "have" and "halve". Rhyming with "have": dad, fad, had, lad, tad. Rhyming with "halve": bad, mad, pad, sad. (When Garrison Keilor's radio actors try to do a NY accent, they use the "mad" pronunciation for all such words, which isn't accurate. Probably using a Chicago pronunciation.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.242.72.225 ( talk) 21:33, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
Rather has the broad A in Southeastern English English, right? I'm pretty sure I've heard it pronounced that way, but it's not mentioned in the article. 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 23:26, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
'Half' pronounced 'haff' is certainly traditionally heard across the North, eg 'haff past ten'. I'm sure a flat A in 'rather' is traditional in Yorkshire as it is in 'father' Vauxhall1964 ( talk) 00:17, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
I am really confused about the bad-lad split. I thought the vowel in bad was always lengthened when compared to the vowel in bat; is it lengthened even more with this split? I thought there was always a fortis vs. lenis distinction or voiceless vs. voiced distinction even in American English to some extent. Why wouldn't lad also be lengthened compared to bat? Thegryseone ( talk) 15:18, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
This is more of a dialectal survey than a phonological history. The title implies that you would find information on, for example, what happened to the Old English /æ/ in Middle English; everything discussed in this article is from the past two or three centuries. - Branddobbe ( talk) 07:22, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Considering that this is an article with a lot to do with pronunciation, a few audio clips may be very helpful for those who are not very familiar with the IPA and such. Monkeyface13 ( talk) 03:45, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
I have changed the name of the section from the capital digraph to the lower case IPA symbol, since IPA letters don't have capital forms. But the question remains, should we hyphenate æ-tensing or not? I slightly favor hyphenation, but what I really care about is consistency. If anyone's got an opinion they should edit the article so the hyphenated or unhyphenated term is used consistently. μηδείς ( talk) 21:03, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
This article sometimes uses the familiar terms 'short' and 'long' in relation to vowels, but at other times uses 'flat' and 'broad' apparently with the same meanings. I have never read any modern work of phonetics that uses the latter terms (except that 'flat' used to be used as a distinctive feature label with a completely different meaning). I would be glad of a reference to published work using 'flat' and 'broad' in a scientific way. If there isn't one, I would like to remove them from the article. Too often these terms crop up in ill-informed journalistic writing about local accents. RoachPeter ( talk) 10:33, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
"Broad /æð/ in blather, gather, slather"
That "broad" should be "flat", right? — JerryFriedman (Talk) 19:10, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
In Cockney#Typical features, it is noted that the TRAP vowel /æ/ may be raised, resulting in [ɛ] (or [ɛɪ]), and surprisingly, Received Pronunciation#Historical variation notes that in RP, there used to be a similar tendency, even though the southeast, including Estuary English (often described as intermediate between RP and Cockney), preserves the [æ] realisation, and in the rest of England except East Anglia, it is even lowered to [a]. Is the raising of the TRAP vowel a southeastern innovation that was later pushed back again (say, in the course of the 20th century)? Also, is there any full-blown merger of the TRAP and DRESS vowels in any variety of English, at least for some positions (such as in Pat and pet), or is it generally avoided by raising or centralising the DRESS vowel too as in NZ English? I miss a discussion of the raising and any mergers like that here. -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 15:07, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
I can't speak for the current situation of /æ/ in Boston, but I've not seen the the western "Metropolitan"what? region's /æ/ described as such in the table:
Apart from what's already noted in California_English#Phonology, California has regularly shown to be a pure nasal split system with a shift of /æ/ before non nasal consonants in any environment, /r/ notwithstanding, to [a]
Which puts it apart from Boston, never mind that Boston is an attested marry-merry-mary split area, opposed to the merged West, which should put them in separate columns for /r/. The /r/ row itself is also missing attested variations of the split/merger English-language_vowel_changes_before_historic_/r/#Mary.E2.80.93marry.E2.80.93merry_merger
As for Oregon/Washington aka Pacific_Northwest_English, they've been shown to back /æ/ as well, along with raising of /æ/ before /g/
There's really no reason for these simple inaccuracies to be here, especially next to the complicated systems of New York/Philadelphia/Baltimore being accurately presented Traptraptrap ( talk) 08:22, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Nothing vastly better springs immediately to mind, but I'm not very happy with the title of this article. It seems to be largely about A's that might very well not be short in Modern English. W. P. Uzer ( talk) 13:00, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
Note that I have made one change in the list section. Previously, it said, "In some dialects, though, including the New York and Mid-Atlantic ones (such as spoken in Philadelphia), the "short a" sound can actually split into two entirely distinct phonemes, so that using a tense vowel rather than a lax vowel can potentially change the meanings of words or phrases." Note that this is actually inaccurate for New York English. I live in Central Jersey. And at least around here, there is a split between /eə/ and /æ/. However, no minimal pairs are formed in the split. Furthermore, when I have spoken to people New York accents, there were never any confusions between words like caf (meaning cafeteria) and calf.
On the other hand, which could be the cause of the confusion, when the short a proceeds /f/, /θ/ to a lesser extent, or /s/, it could be pronounced either way, even in the same sentence. I'll use the following sentence as an example: "A half of a mile is a half of a mile." This could be pronounced as any of these:
Personally, I feel that this is more phenomenal, and that it is interesting; but it might just be me. Over and out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.102.218.18 ( talk) 22:34, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
In that case, I am afraid I misunderstand the page. Could you, sir/ma'am, clear me up on what the classical definition of the split is? Thank you. 74.102.216.186 ( talk) 15:27, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
Now I understand. There is such a split in New York City English. Some words with an are still pronounced [æn], and others are pronounced [eən]. (There are irregularities like any, Han (as in Han Solo), etc.) As a side note, such a split both has and has not taken hold of rhotic varieties of New York English found in New Jersey. In such varieties, we actually do perceive the two to be separate sounds. However, we pronounce all of the an class words as [eən]. Finally, as your understanding is better than mine, I have one more question to ask you. In New York English, are there any examples where the use of a tense [æ] versus a lax [æ] could result in a different meaning? However, I would prefer that the example not be can (as to be able) and can (as in a metal can) for two reasons. For one, the former is usually pronounced [kɛn]. For another, this pronunciation is sometimes used to prevent it from sounding like can't. But any other would be fine. I do thank you for all of your input. 74.102.216.186 ( talk) 03:06, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
It dawned on me a few days ago. One time, I was speaking to my parents about my brother's friend Aaron, which I pronounced as eərən. However, my father thought that I said "Erin", which I would have pronounce as ɛrən. My father misunderstood me because he pronounces "Aaron" as ærən. Another good example of a minimal pair is "Mary" meəriː vs. "marry" mæˀriː. Almost all of the minimal pairs in New York English occur before r. They rarely occur before n.
Typically, New Yorkers have a three-way distinction between "Mary", "marry", and "merry". Sometimes, in the NY metropolitan area of New Jersey, especially for younger speakers, we only have a two-way distinction, pronouncing "Mary" and "marry" both as meəriː, while "merry" is still pronounced as mɛriː. I'm sorry, sir/ma'am. It dawned on me after you had already replied. 74.102.216.186 ( talk) 01:18, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
In the section describing the vowel changes before r, the pages says that [a] was lengthened before r, shifting to [aː]. Then, the page jumps right to describing the words cat and cart differing by vowel quality and length in Received Pronunciation, the former pronounced as [kæt] and the latter as [kɑːt], without ever mentioning the retracting of [aː] to [ɑ]. (The fronting of [a] to [æ] is described.) Could anybody add in a line saying when [aː] was retracted to [ɑː]? Thank you. LakeKayak ( talk) 22:37, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
I personally think these should have their own articles. They are long and significant enough for articles on their own. Have all the information about them here makes the article lengthy. I have created articles for them. Fish567 ( talk) 23:15, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
This one I am only a little curious about. And I want to see if anybody knows the answer – because I don't. Any help with this question is appreciated. LakeKayak ( talk) 01:03, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
As a native speaker of Standard or General AusE, cat [kæt] is noticeably higher/closer than cart [ka:t]. I can't say that I ever hear Aussies say caht [kat] for the feline unless they were affecting a toffee-nosed Queen's English. A low caht would likely be misheard as cut [kʌt].
To put it another way: in the triples cat–cart–cut, bat–Bart–but the cat and bat sound more distinct.
I hope we can find a reference that supports this observation and amend the table, which currently has a big tick for æ-lowering in AusE. ⁓ Pelagic ( messages ) 22:23, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
Cox and Fletcher p. 65 give /æ/, /ɐ/, /ɐ:/ for bat, but, part in AusE. ⁓ Pelagic ( messages ) 23:26, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
Ohno, I've fallen into the rabbit-hole of MD versus HCE transcription of Australian English. [3] [4] Does the frequency diagram at [5] mean that the æ–ɐ distinction is more front-back rather than height? ⁓ Pelagic ( messages ) 00:55, 10 June 2023 (UTC)