Look farther down on this page, you see the code for the Portal page (with many transclusions). So you're thinking, "this is going to be confusing to new editors." Absolutely not. The good thing about the portal is that experienced users, if they want, can take the load off the new users by creating subpages in advance. For example, I created User:Joturner/Current Events Portal Redesign/July 7, 2006 by just going to the new page and typing {{subst:User:Joturner/Current Events Portal Redesign/DateHeader|2006|07|07}} (obviously this would change to Portal:Current events if this proposal were implemented). The border, date, day of the week, and edit link are all added automatically. So essentially, more experienced editors, if they want, can create future date pages ahead of time so new editors won't have to deal with that. All the new editors have to do is add one line, {{Portal:Current events/July 2, 2006}}, and it shows up on the page. To achieve the effect of having all the daily current events on the left side and the sidebars on the right, a table was used instead of the simple floating infobox style.
This same kind of technique (transclusion and all) can also be used for the other current event portal pages.
Well, it helps make the page less cluttered. However, the main goal of the transcluding is to make other jobs easier. Archivals in the portal space would be easier than before because it isn't being done all at one time (see The Calendar) and also because the events could be simultaneously updated on the entrance to the portal as well as on the monthly subpages. In addition, the events could be in reverse chronological order on the entrance to the portal but forward chronological order on the subpages.
This could still be up for discussion, but the proposal is set up so the past seven days are the only days that remain at the front of the portal (under the old system June 30 events were not current events on July 1, but June 1 events were current events on June 30). So the calendar on the right would only link to the seven days on the portal homepage (this will need manual updating like in the original) and sometimes show the previous few days at the beginning of the month (like in this mockup).
Well, if we're still going to maintain the monthly archives in the article space, we'd have a huge problem because obviously we cannot have all this formatting in the article space. However, if we were to maintain the monthly archives on the Portal and just redirect the future monthly articles to their respective years, this would not be a problem. In my personal opinion, I like this idea because right now those month articles don't really say anything about the months (like articles). Instead, they are just the places we dump the old current events pages (like an archive, which is not what the article space should be used for).
The code for this proposal of the portal page is very short because it includes many transclusions:
{{User:Joturner/Current Events Portal Redesign/Newsbrowsebar}} {{User:Joturner/Current Events Portal Redesign/Highlights}} {| style="background-color:transparent" |valign="top"| <!-- To add a new date, add the new day's template below (e.g. {{Portal:Current events/July 21, 2006}}) and remove the oldest date from the bottom, so only seven days remain on the portal page. Do NOT use leading zeros (i.e. use July 1, 2006, not July 01, 2006). If after saving the page a red-link shows up with the new date, click the link and enter something like... {{subst:Portal:Current events/DateHeader|2006|07|21}} |} ...where the first number is the year, the second number is that of the month, and the third number is that of the date of the new day. The closing |} is very important. --> {{User:Joturner/Current Events Portal Redesign/July 1, 2006}} {{User:Joturner/Current Events Portal Redesign/June 30, 2006}} {{User:Joturner/Current Events Portal Redesign/June 29, 2006}} {{User:Joturner/Current Events Portal Redesign/June 28, 2006}} {{User:Joturner/Current Events Portal Redesign/June 27, 2006}} {{User:Joturner/Current Events Portal Redesign/June 26, 2006}} {{User:Joturner/Current Events Portal Redesign/June 25, 2006}} {{User:Joturner/Current Events Portal Redesign/More events}} |valign="top"| {{User:Joturner/Current Events Portal Redesign/Current events}} |} {{User:Joturner/Current Events Portal Redesign/Events by month}} [[Category:2006|*]] [[Category:Portals under construction|Current events]] <!--*** Foreign language links removed ***-->
This includes the same "broswe bar" tables from the current Portal:Current events with the dark grey removed and a light blue added. The top table is now also 100% of the screen width.
This includes the same highlight table from the current Portal:Current events with the dark grey removed and a light blue added. The message regarding the Highlights / Main Page candidates are also included in this part and the two external links are also here as well. Note that the Adding a Date link will link to a piece on how to add a new date to the portal (although it's also in the comments on the entrance to the portal page).
These are the daily events transcluded onto the entrance to the portal. They could also be transcluded into monthly pages / archivals. Obviously, major changes were made to this part.
This contains the link to More June 2006 events.... I decided to make this a transclusion just because so many other things were transcluded.
This is essentially the same as the original right sidebar, with some removals. Events was moved up because I felt they were more important than Recent Deaths. Some of the links, like the Wikinews, About This Page, and Wikimedia Commons links were moved to other parts of the page.
Nothing drastic was done to this section. The commas and colons were replaced with pipes and bullets, respectively, and the full months were cut down to three-letter abbreviations due to word-wrapping of the full month names in some resolutions.
This is used when added a new date (it is subst:). It adds the help comments and includes /DateHeader2.
This contains the table frame and the
Like with the original, this contains the calendar part of the /Current events transclusion.
So that's about it. Discussion, feedback, and suggestions on the proposal would be appreciated in the appropriate section below. Forgive my poor grammar if it exists in this post; it's getting quite late for me. joturn e r 05:59, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
Just to get an idea of what's going on...
This is the method displayed on this purpose whereby only a certain number of days (in this case, seven) are displayed on the main portal page and rest are on their respective monthly pages.
This is the current method on Portal:Current events and the former Current events. All the events for the month are kept on the main portal page until the end of the month when all of the months events are moved to another article (with the chronological order changed from forward to backward). The main portal page is cleared for the next month.
As currently: June 2006, May 2006, etc.
As such: Portal:Current events/July 2006, Portal:Current events/August 2006. etc.
The full archives would be kept in portal space, but a shorter summary of the month should go into the article space.
This method employs the use of section headers, like on most of Wikipedia (see this talk page here and the alternate design. Little formatting can be done.
This method employs the use of tables for each section, as in this proposal. Formatting possibilities are limitless.
This is how the current portal looks.
What should be the date format of the sub-pages: US-format, ISO-format or European format?
The ISO format has the advantage of automatically chronologic sorting.
Use July 8, July 9, etc. Solve ISO vs. Euro vs. U.S. issue by wikifying month and year as in current version, which supports readers' date preferences and conforms to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Dates containing a month and a day.
Add a new straw poll at your leisure. joturn e r 01:09, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
I love to see an option for normal section editing. Events by monts template should be widened as in original version though. -- tasc words deeds 10:36, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I've checked if you just take it out of the table it would work. Cheers. -- tasc words deeds 10:38, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
Looks perfect to me. Thumbs up! :) — Nightst a llion (?) 23:08, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
Big question: should archivals stay on the article namespace (i.e. June 2006, May 2006, etc.) or should we keep all future monthly archivals in the portal namespace (i.e. Portal:Current events/July 2006, Portal:Current events/August 2006, etc.)? Regarding the issue, I stated (in the Documentation above):
However, Kayaker on the portal talk page stated:
So what does everyone else thing we should do? Archive in the article/main space or archive in the portal space? joturn e r 23:24, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I like a lot of what I see in the new mockups, the code behind those mockups, and the processes implied by them. Before I start responding to specifics though, I'd would find it useful to understand what the priorities are. I think its much easier to arrive at a rough consensus if
If I'm in the minority about this, I'll muddle my way through somehow, but I would like to see User:Joturner pick one or two changes included the proposals and let us focus on those first. Perhaps there's one easy one and one important-to-do-even-if-it-isn't-easy, or whatever.
Personally, I'm tempted to choose an improved archival process as the next priority. After doing the one for June 2006, I ended up with a list of five or six problems that need solving either in terms of improved documentation or changes to the way that the currents events portal is structured and maintained. The new proposals include changes in this area, so I guess I'm not alone in this.
Thanks-- Kayaker 00:19, 2 July 2006 (UTC).
The switch to a portal allows us to make a page more aesthetically pleasing. What falls under aesthetically pleasing varies from person to person, but I hope the introduction of a bit more color accomplished that task. joturn e r 02:44, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
The transclusions allow the archivals to be made easier, by allows the chronological order of the events to made much easier. However, none of other issues addressed in Kayaker's list of archival problems. joturn e r 02:44, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
This is included in both the main proposal and the alternate version allow for section editing. This is accomplished through a table format where the daily events are in the left column and the sidebar resides in the right column. joturn e r 02:44, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Two people, one of whom is using a customized version of Internet Explorer, reported a problem with the style settings for the hightlights section. You can see the thread of conversation here and the image at right is what the problematic part of the screen looks like in Mozilla. I don't have a way at the moment to test this on IE and am wondering if anyone else is seeing the problem. Kayaker 00:52, 2 July 2006 (UTC).
Highlights |
{{ In the news}} |
IMO the in other projects box should be moved to the bottom to make the top less cluttered as it take up a lot of space above the fold which should be used for actual content. L C @ R S DA T A 06:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be more neutral to use the ISO date for the names of the subpages than the US date format? This will have the additional advantage that the pages would be sorted chronologically when included in a category. -- Donar Reiskoffer 09:57, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Cyan, ugh! Please use a different color! Perhaps a contrasting color... there's already a ton of blue on the page. ~ MDD 46 96 16:16, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I like where this redesign is headed. Though, in the newsbrowsebar, there needs to be a link back to the main current events page. That way, the newsbrowsebar can be used on Current events in the United States, and one can easily get back to the main Current events page. - Aude ( talk contribs) 20:32, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
So now there's a problem. A couple users have suggested that the archives go in the article space. However, as you clearly can see, there are a lot of tables and formatting, etc, etc for each of the dates. That (as far as I know) cannot go into article space. So we can't have the appearance of this page and the archives in article space (without a considerable amount of extra work). I noted this in the Downside Section on this page, but I had a feeling the section wasn't fully read. joturn e r 01:41, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Look farther down on this page, you see the code for the Portal page (with many transclusions). So you're thinking, "this is going to be confusing to new editors." Absolutely not. The good thing about the portal is that experienced users, if they want, can take the load off the new users by creating subpages in advance. For example, I created User:Joturner/Current Events Portal Redesign/July 7, 2006 by just going to the new page and typing {{subst:User:Joturner/Current Events Portal Redesign/DateHeader|2006|07|07}} (obviously this would change to Portal:Current events if this proposal were implemented). The border, date, day of the week, and edit link are all added automatically. So essentially, more experienced editors, if they want, can create future date pages ahead of time so new editors won't have to deal with that. All the new editors have to do is add one line, {{Portal:Current events/July 2, 2006}}, and it shows up on the page. To achieve the effect of having all the daily current events on the left side and the sidebars on the right, a table was used instead of the simple floating infobox style.
This same kind of technique (transclusion and all) can also be used for the other current event portal pages.
Well, it helps make the page less cluttered. However, the main goal of the transcluding is to make other jobs easier. Archivals in the portal space would be easier than before because it isn't being done all at one time (see The Calendar) and also because the events could be simultaneously updated on the entrance to the portal as well as on the monthly subpages. In addition, the events could be in reverse chronological order on the entrance to the portal but forward chronological order on the subpages.
This could still be up for discussion, but the proposal is set up so the past seven days are the only days that remain at the front of the portal (under the old system June 30 events were not current events on July 1, but June 1 events were current events on June 30). So the calendar on the right would only link to the seven days on the portal homepage (this will need manual updating like in the original) and sometimes show the previous few days at the beginning of the month (like in this mockup).
Well, if we're still going to maintain the monthly archives in the article space, we'd have a huge problem because obviously we cannot have all this formatting in the article space. However, if we were to maintain the monthly archives on the Portal and just redirect the future monthly articles to their respective years, this would not be a problem. In my personal opinion, I like this idea because right now those month articles don't really say anything about the months (like articles). Instead, they are just the places we dump the old current events pages (like an archive, which is not what the article space should be used for).
The code for this proposal of the portal page is very short because it includes many transclusions:
{{User:Joturner/Current Events Portal Redesign/Newsbrowsebar}} {{User:Joturner/Current Events Portal Redesign/Highlights}} {| style="background-color:transparent" |valign="top"| <!-- To add a new date, add the new day's template below (e.g. {{Portal:Current events/July 21, 2006}}) and remove the oldest date from the bottom, so only seven days remain on the portal page. Do NOT use leading zeros (i.e. use July 1, 2006, not July 01, 2006). If after saving the page a red-link shows up with the new date, click the link and enter something like... {{subst:Portal:Current events/DateHeader|2006|07|21}} |} ...where the first number is the year, the second number is that of the month, and the third number is that of the date of the new day. The closing |} is very important. --> {{User:Joturner/Current Events Portal Redesign/July 1, 2006}} {{User:Joturner/Current Events Portal Redesign/June 30, 2006}} {{User:Joturner/Current Events Portal Redesign/June 29, 2006}} {{User:Joturner/Current Events Portal Redesign/June 28, 2006}} {{User:Joturner/Current Events Portal Redesign/June 27, 2006}} {{User:Joturner/Current Events Portal Redesign/June 26, 2006}} {{User:Joturner/Current Events Portal Redesign/June 25, 2006}} {{User:Joturner/Current Events Portal Redesign/More events}} |valign="top"| {{User:Joturner/Current Events Portal Redesign/Current events}} |} {{User:Joturner/Current Events Portal Redesign/Events by month}} [[Category:2006|*]] [[Category:Portals under construction|Current events]] <!--*** Foreign language links removed ***-->
This includes the same "broswe bar" tables from the current Portal:Current events with the dark grey removed and a light blue added. The top table is now also 100% of the screen width.
This includes the same highlight table from the current Portal:Current events with the dark grey removed and a light blue added. The message regarding the Highlights / Main Page candidates are also included in this part and the two external links are also here as well. Note that the Adding a Date link will link to a piece on how to add a new date to the portal (although it's also in the comments on the entrance to the portal page).
These are the daily events transcluded onto the entrance to the portal. They could also be transcluded into monthly pages / archivals. Obviously, major changes were made to this part.
This contains the link to More June 2006 events.... I decided to make this a transclusion just because so many other things were transcluded.
This is essentially the same as the original right sidebar, with some removals. Events was moved up because I felt they were more important than Recent Deaths. Some of the links, like the Wikinews, About This Page, and Wikimedia Commons links were moved to other parts of the page.
Nothing drastic was done to this section. The commas and colons were replaced with pipes and bullets, respectively, and the full months were cut down to three-letter abbreviations due to word-wrapping of the full month names in some resolutions.
This is used when added a new date (it is subst:). It adds the help comments and includes /DateHeader2.
This contains the table frame and the
Like with the original, this contains the calendar part of the /Current events transclusion.
So that's about it. Discussion, feedback, and suggestions on the proposal would be appreciated in the appropriate section below. Forgive my poor grammar if it exists in this post; it's getting quite late for me. joturn e r 05:59, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
Just to get an idea of what's going on...
This is the method displayed on this purpose whereby only a certain number of days (in this case, seven) are displayed on the main portal page and rest are on their respective monthly pages.
This is the current method on Portal:Current events and the former Current events. All the events for the month are kept on the main portal page until the end of the month when all of the months events are moved to another article (with the chronological order changed from forward to backward). The main portal page is cleared for the next month.
As currently: June 2006, May 2006, etc.
As such: Portal:Current events/July 2006, Portal:Current events/August 2006. etc.
The full archives would be kept in portal space, but a shorter summary of the month should go into the article space.
This method employs the use of section headers, like on most of Wikipedia (see this talk page here and the alternate design. Little formatting can be done.
This method employs the use of tables for each section, as in this proposal. Formatting possibilities are limitless.
This is how the current portal looks.
What should be the date format of the sub-pages: US-format, ISO-format or European format?
The ISO format has the advantage of automatically chronologic sorting.
Use July 8, July 9, etc. Solve ISO vs. Euro vs. U.S. issue by wikifying month and year as in current version, which supports readers' date preferences and conforms to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Dates containing a month and a day.
Add a new straw poll at your leisure. joturn e r 01:09, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
I love to see an option for normal section editing. Events by monts template should be widened as in original version though. -- tasc words deeds 10:36, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I've checked if you just take it out of the table it would work. Cheers. -- tasc words deeds 10:38, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
Looks perfect to me. Thumbs up! :) — Nightst a llion (?) 23:08, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
Big question: should archivals stay on the article namespace (i.e. June 2006, May 2006, etc.) or should we keep all future monthly archivals in the portal namespace (i.e. Portal:Current events/July 2006, Portal:Current events/August 2006, etc.)? Regarding the issue, I stated (in the Documentation above):
However, Kayaker on the portal talk page stated:
So what does everyone else thing we should do? Archive in the article/main space or archive in the portal space? joturn e r 23:24, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I like a lot of what I see in the new mockups, the code behind those mockups, and the processes implied by them. Before I start responding to specifics though, I'd would find it useful to understand what the priorities are. I think its much easier to arrive at a rough consensus if
If I'm in the minority about this, I'll muddle my way through somehow, but I would like to see User:Joturner pick one or two changes included the proposals and let us focus on those first. Perhaps there's one easy one and one important-to-do-even-if-it-isn't-easy, or whatever.
Personally, I'm tempted to choose an improved archival process as the next priority. After doing the one for June 2006, I ended up with a list of five or six problems that need solving either in terms of improved documentation or changes to the way that the currents events portal is structured and maintained. The new proposals include changes in this area, so I guess I'm not alone in this.
Thanks-- Kayaker 00:19, 2 July 2006 (UTC).
The switch to a portal allows us to make a page more aesthetically pleasing. What falls under aesthetically pleasing varies from person to person, but I hope the introduction of a bit more color accomplished that task. joturn e r 02:44, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
The transclusions allow the archivals to be made easier, by allows the chronological order of the events to made much easier. However, none of other issues addressed in Kayaker's list of archival problems. joturn e r 02:44, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
This is included in both the main proposal and the alternate version allow for section editing. This is accomplished through a table format where the daily events are in the left column and the sidebar resides in the right column. joturn e r 02:44, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Two people, one of whom is using a customized version of Internet Explorer, reported a problem with the style settings for the hightlights section. You can see the thread of conversation here and the image at right is what the problematic part of the screen looks like in Mozilla. I don't have a way at the moment to test this on IE and am wondering if anyone else is seeing the problem. Kayaker 00:52, 2 July 2006 (UTC).
Highlights |
{{ In the news}} |
IMO the in other projects box should be moved to the bottom to make the top less cluttered as it take up a lot of space above the fold which should be used for actual content. L C @ R S DA T A 06:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be more neutral to use the ISO date for the names of the subpages than the US date format? This will have the additional advantage that the pages would be sorted chronologically when included in a category. -- Donar Reiskoffer 09:57, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Cyan, ugh! Please use a different color! Perhaps a contrasting color... there's already a ton of blue on the page. ~ MDD 46 96 16:16, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I like where this redesign is headed. Though, in the newsbrowsebar, there needs to be a link back to the main current events page. That way, the newsbrowsebar can be used on Current events in the United States, and one can easily get back to the main Current events page. - Aude ( talk contribs) 20:32, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
So now there's a problem. A couple users have suggested that the archives go in the article space. However, as you clearly can see, there are a lot of tables and formatting, etc, etc for each of the dates. That (as far as I know) cannot go into article space. So we can't have the appearance of this page and the archives in article space (without a considerable amount of extra work). I noted this in the Downside Section on this page, but I had a feeling the section wasn't fully read. joturn e r 01:41, 9 July 2006 (UTC)