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Is the reduced vowel really supposed to be [ɘ], rather than [ə] as in the Macedonian phonology article? If so, why is it linked to schwa rather than close-mid central unrounded vowel? — Emil J. 19:00, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
Adding Bulgarian. No reason for a separate chart, as differences are minimal and can be handled through footnotes. kwami ( talk) 09:06, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
According to Bulgarian phonology [ə] is often written as [ɤ] - could be worth mentioning here, in case there are any [ɤ]'s floating around on WP. Lfh ( talk) 17:09, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
The purpose of these "IPA for [language]" pages (as I understand them) is to assist in the phonetic transcription of a language into IPA notation. Given the orthographic and phonological differences between these two languages it would be wiser to have two separate articles, anything else would just be an ugly sea of confusing (for many) footnotes and markings. Just my two cents. -- 124.150.51.238 ( talk) 11:33, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
Without getting into too many details, the differences far exceed those of Czech/Slovak, Estonian/Finnish, etc. There's no reason why Bulgarian or Macedonian shouldn't have separate articles (read: no good reason why they should be a single article), and it's the best solution to avoid any possible ambiguity. -- 124.150.51.238 ( talk) 11:50, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
"... the differences far exceed those of Czech/Slovak, Estonian/Finnish"? Particularly the second part shows little understanding of the subject. Other errors in the arguments by the anon were already pointed out above. The point about orthography makes no sense either, to give you an example Hindi and Urdu share the same "IPA for..." page and they use entirely different scripts. Given the other examples (Czech/Slovak, Dutch/Afrikaans, Estonian/Finnish, Hindi/Urdu, Serbo-Croatian, Swedish/Norwegian and Turkish/Azerbaijani), the page should remain as "Bulgarian and Macedonian". Todor → Bozhinov 21:38, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Bulgarian and Macedonian are standard registers based on divergent dialects of the same language.
There are 7000 languages in the world. It isn't practical to maintain IPA keys for very many of them.
It's made perfectly clear that дз..
There is no [[Palatal lateral approximant in Standard Macedonian? Then what is љ for? And why does it says so in the article about the Macedonian language?
Orthographic traditions are unimportant here, as this is about pronunciation.
to give you an example Hindi and Urdu
Another problem is Bulgarian vowel reduction and palatalization... can we now overcome our political biases and split these into two accurate articles? -- 124.169.79.79 ( talk) 08:52, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
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|
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I am proposing a split for the following reasons:
Therefore I am proposing this page be split into 'IPA for Macedonian' and 'IPA for Bulgarian', and I have offered what I believe to be more accurate table layouts above. -- 124.169.79.79 ( talk) 12:16, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
Obviously, a lot tidier. Are some users pushing to keep the current state of the page out of political bias? To test this, why not merge with Basque or Romanian? -- 124.169.79.79 ( talk) 23:17, 28 December 2010 (UTC) So what exactly is covered in these pages that isn't in Bulgarian/ Serbo-Croatian/ Macedonian language/ Serbo-Croatian/ Macedonian phonology/ Serbian/ Macedonian orthography? -- 124.169.79.79 ( talk) 23:27, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
What significance does that have in the 21st century when trying to produce pronunciation guides for artificial standards? Should Belorussian, Ukrainian and Russian be merged and a mess made of the page as has happened with this one? The fact that a unified Bulgarian-Macedonian standard never came about in the 19th century if proof enough that these two languages are too divergent. Back to the point: it remains that the phonologies of these two languages and the conventions for their notations differ enough to warrant a split. -- 124.148.227.27 ( talk) 08:52, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
Everyone seems to be quite confused as to the purpose of these pages. kwami, you're asking for a word but Aeusoes1 claims orthography is irrelevant. -- 124.148.227.27 ( talk) 11:30, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
Macedonian and Serbian differ in two phonemes - Macedonian and Bulgaria differ in < thirteen (not to mention schwa and phonetically unstressed vowels). -- 124.148.227.27 ( talk) 22:32, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
The introduction to the article talks about phonemes, but then it lists phones. What is the intention here, to list which of the two? I think a large part of the confusion in this talk page is due to the lack of clarity on this question. I think this needs to be settled before any other matters are decided. The links in articles that link to here usually have square brackets, which indicate phones. There are additional complications due to disagreements over, for example, what phonemes exactly exist, and what their canonical representations are. The traditional analyses of most dialects of Bulgarian have palatalized consonants as separate phonemes. But then they inconsistently use /gʲ/ as a phonemic representation, although it is always pronounced [ɟ]. I guess influenced by the orthography? Macedonian linguists, it seems, use /ɟ/ as the phonemic representation for that consonant. 82.137.72.33 ( talk) 12:50, 22 April 2011 (UTC) On further thought, the current approach of only listing consonants which have a pronunciation at a different point of articulation when palatalized seems sane to me. After all, that's all the symbols users clicking on the IPA in articles will need explanation for. 82.137.72.33 ( talk) 13:50, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Secondary stress is an interesting problem: in the continuum, it occurs most prominently in dialects spoken in what is currently Bulgaria, in which the primary stress is weakest, which dialects the Macedonian state claims are Macedonian whatever they might mean by that; but in the standard languages, it occurs in Standard Bulgarian, although to a much lesser degree, and does not occur at all in Standard Macedonian. Also, just for completenes' sake, I think we should include the palatalization sign also. In dialects spoken in Macedonia, there is a gradual reduction in the degree of freedom of stress from East to West, and more freedom correlates with weaker primary stress and more secondary stress, I think?
Anyway, I think with the addition of these two we will have covered all the symbols users are likely to encounter. 82.137.72.33 ( talk) 14:44, 22 April 2011 (UTC) Also, can anyonse say something about the L's? It looks wrong to me now. Maybe some Macedonian user can provide links to the official Macedonian government position on the status of л and љ and their allophones? There seems to be disagreement on whether in Standard Bulgarian non-palatalized л before non-front vowels is supposed to be velarized or simply dental? Whatever the case is, the л in лаф and бяла is basically the same. 82.137.72.33 ( talk) 16:36, 22 April 2011 (UTC) Дзифт is also obscure slang from the middle of the 20th century, it's only known today becuse of a recent film, and is likely to be soon forgotten, it's inappropriate for Wikipedia as a recentism. 82.137.72.33 ( talk) 16:59, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
According to the article on Macedonian, it has the same pattern of allophony of alveolar lateral before front vowels and dental otherwise as Bulgarian. Reading those articles, I can see that this allophone is not universally recognised as being velarized in Bulgarian. But it is in Macedonian. So I don't see why it is marked with a B, he anything it should be an M. Furthermore, the Macedonian article suggest that some scholars consider Љ to be identical to the alveolar realization, not a palatal one like in Bulgarian. Also, only syllablic R is mentioned, not L. 213.226.63.148 ( talk) 14:26, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
<л> represents the phoneme /l/ which is [l] before /i/, /e/ and /j/, but velar in all other positions. So where the velar is expected but [l] occurs, then <љ> is used (e.g. <детаљ> [detal]). The palatal lateral occurs (at least phonetically) only in the root <љуб->. -- 58.7.167.180 ( talk) 15:24, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
The differences between the two (letterforms and spelling (digraphs, etc.), palatalization, vowel reduction, realization of schwa) make this look very messy. -- 58.7.167.180 ( talk) 15:35, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
This article is an absolute joke. Whatever people's political views on what constitutes a language and what constitutes a dialect, the fact is that the literary standards of the two languages are based on dialects which have several completely incompatible sounds. For example the Macedonian ќ (this is pronounced roughly halfway between the English sounds "ky" & "ch", however strange that may seem) is non-existent in Bulgarian; the Bulgarian combinations "кй/кь" are NOT the same. There are several such sounds in Macedonian. Also, Mac. doesn't have the exact same ъ sound that BG has. Please, someone split this into two articles if you want them to be taken seriously. We don't have a single WP IPA page for German and Dutch, now, do we?! BigSteve ( talk) 11:23, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
Ok, let's do this. First of all, nice work on setting up the table with the columns! I'll try and help with the article at some point but it'll take me a while to figure out the technicalities, so for now i'll just give some explanations. It's been a few years since i was into phonetics/phonology so i may well get some of this slightly off, but generally the stuff i'm sure of is this:
That's as far as (i think) i can say for sure, and i've mentioned where i'm unsure. If anyone feels i've got anything wrong or explained anything in a too-complex way, please feel free to correct or elaborate. I'm sure of the stuff relating to BG, not 100% certain on some of the Mac stuff. Thanks for your help on this, Ƶ§œš¹! BigSteve ( talk) 09:20, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
No matter how hard you all try, any result will always be clumsy and horribly inaccurate:
http://bg.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%BA%D1%8F%D1%80 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.237.89.24 ( talk) 10:23, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
http://www.makedonski.info/show/%D0%B4%E2%80%99%D1%82%D0%BA%D0%B0/%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%B2
This is so goddamn fucking clumsy and inaccurate, and you can't see that through your respective Balkanian rubbish. Macedonian and Bulgarian are very similar, yes. But one cannot justify making a mess of this chart just because they happen to be each others' closest relatives. Genetic similarity ≠ similarity in pronunciation. -- 101.112.179.241 ( talk) 02:41, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
This is indeed a joke. I read above the table "When two examples are given, the first is in Bulgarian and the second in Macedonian. When one example is given, the word has the same spelling in both languages." And then there is "прст". But in Bulgarian it is "пръст". At least correct that. In my opinion the table should be split. Zliv ( talk) 07:16, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Help talk:IPA which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 16:16, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
in many articles (for example Bulgaria, Bulgarian language) there is listed /ɐ/ but it's missing here for some reason LICA98 ( talk) 07:49, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Is the reduced vowel really supposed to be [ɘ], rather than [ə] as in the Macedonian phonology article? If so, why is it linked to schwa rather than close-mid central unrounded vowel? — Emil J. 19:00, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
Adding Bulgarian. No reason for a separate chart, as differences are minimal and can be handled through footnotes. kwami ( talk) 09:06, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
According to Bulgarian phonology [ə] is often written as [ɤ] - could be worth mentioning here, in case there are any [ɤ]'s floating around on WP. Lfh ( talk) 17:09, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
The purpose of these "IPA for [language]" pages (as I understand them) is to assist in the phonetic transcription of a language into IPA notation. Given the orthographic and phonological differences between these two languages it would be wiser to have two separate articles, anything else would just be an ugly sea of confusing (for many) footnotes and markings. Just my two cents. -- 124.150.51.238 ( talk) 11:33, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
Without getting into too many details, the differences far exceed those of Czech/Slovak, Estonian/Finnish, etc. There's no reason why Bulgarian or Macedonian shouldn't have separate articles (read: no good reason why they should be a single article), and it's the best solution to avoid any possible ambiguity. -- 124.150.51.238 ( talk) 11:50, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
"... the differences far exceed those of Czech/Slovak, Estonian/Finnish"? Particularly the second part shows little understanding of the subject. Other errors in the arguments by the anon were already pointed out above. The point about orthography makes no sense either, to give you an example Hindi and Urdu share the same "IPA for..." page and they use entirely different scripts. Given the other examples (Czech/Slovak, Dutch/Afrikaans, Estonian/Finnish, Hindi/Urdu, Serbo-Croatian, Swedish/Norwegian and Turkish/Azerbaijani), the page should remain as "Bulgarian and Macedonian". Todor → Bozhinov 21:38, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Bulgarian and Macedonian are standard registers based on divergent dialects of the same language.
There are 7000 languages in the world. It isn't practical to maintain IPA keys for very many of them.
It's made perfectly clear that дз..
There is no [[Palatal lateral approximant in Standard Macedonian? Then what is љ for? And why does it says so in the article about the Macedonian language?
Orthographic traditions are unimportant here, as this is about pronunciation.
to give you an example Hindi and Urdu
Another problem is Bulgarian vowel reduction and palatalization... can we now overcome our political biases and split these into two accurate articles? -- 124.169.79.79 ( talk) 08:52, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
|
|
|
I am proposing a split for the following reasons:
Therefore I am proposing this page be split into 'IPA for Macedonian' and 'IPA for Bulgarian', and I have offered what I believe to be more accurate table layouts above. -- 124.169.79.79 ( talk) 12:16, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
Obviously, a lot tidier. Are some users pushing to keep the current state of the page out of political bias? To test this, why not merge with Basque or Romanian? -- 124.169.79.79 ( talk) 23:17, 28 December 2010 (UTC) So what exactly is covered in these pages that isn't in Bulgarian/ Serbo-Croatian/ Macedonian language/ Serbo-Croatian/ Macedonian phonology/ Serbian/ Macedonian orthography? -- 124.169.79.79 ( talk) 23:27, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
What significance does that have in the 21st century when trying to produce pronunciation guides for artificial standards? Should Belorussian, Ukrainian and Russian be merged and a mess made of the page as has happened with this one? The fact that a unified Bulgarian-Macedonian standard never came about in the 19th century if proof enough that these two languages are too divergent. Back to the point: it remains that the phonologies of these two languages and the conventions for their notations differ enough to warrant a split. -- 124.148.227.27 ( talk) 08:52, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
Everyone seems to be quite confused as to the purpose of these pages. kwami, you're asking for a word but Aeusoes1 claims orthography is irrelevant. -- 124.148.227.27 ( talk) 11:30, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
Macedonian and Serbian differ in two phonemes - Macedonian and Bulgaria differ in < thirteen (not to mention schwa and phonetically unstressed vowels). -- 124.148.227.27 ( talk) 22:32, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
The introduction to the article talks about phonemes, but then it lists phones. What is the intention here, to list which of the two? I think a large part of the confusion in this talk page is due to the lack of clarity on this question. I think this needs to be settled before any other matters are decided. The links in articles that link to here usually have square brackets, which indicate phones. There are additional complications due to disagreements over, for example, what phonemes exactly exist, and what their canonical representations are. The traditional analyses of most dialects of Bulgarian have palatalized consonants as separate phonemes. But then they inconsistently use /gʲ/ as a phonemic representation, although it is always pronounced [ɟ]. I guess influenced by the orthography? Macedonian linguists, it seems, use /ɟ/ as the phonemic representation for that consonant. 82.137.72.33 ( talk) 12:50, 22 April 2011 (UTC) On further thought, the current approach of only listing consonants which have a pronunciation at a different point of articulation when palatalized seems sane to me. After all, that's all the symbols users clicking on the IPA in articles will need explanation for. 82.137.72.33 ( talk) 13:50, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Secondary stress is an interesting problem: in the continuum, it occurs most prominently in dialects spoken in what is currently Bulgaria, in which the primary stress is weakest, which dialects the Macedonian state claims are Macedonian whatever they might mean by that; but in the standard languages, it occurs in Standard Bulgarian, although to a much lesser degree, and does not occur at all in Standard Macedonian. Also, just for completenes' sake, I think we should include the palatalization sign also. In dialects spoken in Macedonia, there is a gradual reduction in the degree of freedom of stress from East to West, and more freedom correlates with weaker primary stress and more secondary stress, I think?
Anyway, I think with the addition of these two we will have covered all the symbols users are likely to encounter. 82.137.72.33 ( talk) 14:44, 22 April 2011 (UTC) Also, can anyonse say something about the L's? It looks wrong to me now. Maybe some Macedonian user can provide links to the official Macedonian government position on the status of л and љ and their allophones? There seems to be disagreement on whether in Standard Bulgarian non-palatalized л before non-front vowels is supposed to be velarized or simply dental? Whatever the case is, the л in лаф and бяла is basically the same. 82.137.72.33 ( talk) 16:36, 22 April 2011 (UTC) Дзифт is also obscure slang from the middle of the 20th century, it's only known today becuse of a recent film, and is likely to be soon forgotten, it's inappropriate for Wikipedia as a recentism. 82.137.72.33 ( talk) 16:59, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
According to the article on Macedonian, it has the same pattern of allophony of alveolar lateral before front vowels and dental otherwise as Bulgarian. Reading those articles, I can see that this allophone is not universally recognised as being velarized in Bulgarian. But it is in Macedonian. So I don't see why it is marked with a B, he anything it should be an M. Furthermore, the Macedonian article suggest that some scholars consider Љ to be identical to the alveolar realization, not a palatal one like in Bulgarian. Also, only syllablic R is mentioned, not L. 213.226.63.148 ( talk) 14:26, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
<л> represents the phoneme /l/ which is [l] before /i/, /e/ and /j/, but velar in all other positions. So where the velar is expected but [l] occurs, then <љ> is used (e.g. <детаљ> [detal]). The palatal lateral occurs (at least phonetically) only in the root <љуб->. -- 58.7.167.180 ( talk) 15:24, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
The differences between the two (letterforms and spelling (digraphs, etc.), palatalization, vowel reduction, realization of schwa) make this look very messy. -- 58.7.167.180 ( talk) 15:35, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
This article is an absolute joke. Whatever people's political views on what constitutes a language and what constitutes a dialect, the fact is that the literary standards of the two languages are based on dialects which have several completely incompatible sounds. For example the Macedonian ќ (this is pronounced roughly halfway between the English sounds "ky" & "ch", however strange that may seem) is non-existent in Bulgarian; the Bulgarian combinations "кй/кь" are NOT the same. There are several such sounds in Macedonian. Also, Mac. doesn't have the exact same ъ sound that BG has. Please, someone split this into two articles if you want them to be taken seriously. We don't have a single WP IPA page for German and Dutch, now, do we?! BigSteve ( talk) 11:23, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
Ok, let's do this. First of all, nice work on setting up the table with the columns! I'll try and help with the article at some point but it'll take me a while to figure out the technicalities, so for now i'll just give some explanations. It's been a few years since i was into phonetics/phonology so i may well get some of this slightly off, but generally the stuff i'm sure of is this:
That's as far as (i think) i can say for sure, and i've mentioned where i'm unsure. If anyone feels i've got anything wrong or explained anything in a too-complex way, please feel free to correct or elaborate. I'm sure of the stuff relating to BG, not 100% certain on some of the Mac stuff. Thanks for your help on this, Ƶ§œš¹! BigSteve ( talk) 09:20, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
No matter how hard you all try, any result will always be clumsy and horribly inaccurate:
http://bg.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%BA%D1%8F%D1%80 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.237.89.24 ( talk) 10:23, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
http://www.makedonski.info/show/%D0%B4%E2%80%99%D1%82%D0%BA%D0%B0/%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%B2
This is so goddamn fucking clumsy and inaccurate, and you can't see that through your respective Balkanian rubbish. Macedonian and Bulgarian are very similar, yes. But one cannot justify making a mess of this chart just because they happen to be each others' closest relatives. Genetic similarity ≠ similarity in pronunciation. -- 101.112.179.241 ( talk) 02:41, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
This is indeed a joke. I read above the table "When two examples are given, the first is in Bulgarian and the second in Macedonian. When one example is given, the word has the same spelling in both languages." And then there is "прст". But in Bulgarian it is "пръст". At least correct that. In my opinion the table should be split. Zliv ( talk) 07:16, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Help talk:IPA which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 16:16, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
in many articles (for example Bulgaria, Bulgarian language) there is listed /ɐ/ but it's missing here for some reason LICA98 ( talk) 07:49, 8 September 2018 (UTC)