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A summary of the arguments on both sides of this issue has been put on User:WAZAAAA/mp3vsogg. Hit up my talk page to give another reason for either side. Keep the discussion flowing, WAZAAAA 15:34, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
I understand a
final decision has been made on the use of MP3s in Wikipedia, but I think it is really hurting the Spoken Wiki and sound file collection projects. Every single time I try to show somebody some of my audio work on Wikipedia, I have to spend 10 minutes explaining why we don't use MP3, and what the hell this OGG thing is. After that, I have to explain how and where to get an OGG player or codec, hell, I have to explain what a codec is.
Wikipedia is great because it is simple, and even the most common user can enjoy what it has to offer relatively easily. The OGG format is holding the audio projects back from common use and popularity; alternative formats such as mp3 or a flash player (a la Google Video) should be seriously considered. I would guess more than 90 percent of normal (see: non-CS major) users don't have OGG playing capability on their computers, and I don't think they should be expected to call up their tech support neighbor to install it just to to hear an article about Jessica Simpson. A common format would allow users to easily get the files on their mp3 players, burn CDs, and share them with friends. Not everyone is sporting Linux. (Sorry for the rant!) - WAZAAAA 18:44, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Dual-format. Offer it in OGG *and* MPEG formats. — Phil Welch Are you a fan of the band Rush? 20:37, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, it looks like the decision has been made from "up above" not to include mp3, but why not use Flash, as many here have suggested? It doesn't seem too hard to do [1]. - Sesquialtera II 23:16, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
and No mp3 players support .ogg! <-- this post is from 70.178.95.216, sign your posts! - WAZAAAA 01:48, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
I guess I'm only echoing other sentiments here, but it seems unfortunate that sound files are the only part of Wikipedia that don't work "out of the box". I think people would be very unhappy if a similar situation existed for image files; i.e. one had to go through an installation process to see anything, and said process probably would not work on 25% of computers due to lack of administrative privileges. I personally like OGG a lot, but it's really frustrating to know that possibly a majority of users won't listen to recordings I might make for Wikipedia, because iTunes etc. won't play them. I guess what I am hoping for is some research into making sound files available by default on 90% or more computers, rather than setting the line at forcing the installation of new software. Sorry if this has been hashed over hundreds of times already. - Sesquialtera II 23:47, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I fully support using the Ogg Vorbis format, and I think it's reasonable to force people to use it. Anyone who really wants the audio will take the 3 minutes to download and set it up. It's not hard, and they only have to do it once. People complain, but those same people complain about everything on a computer.
Ogg Vorbis isn't as widely used as MP3 only because it isn't as widely known as MP3. Wikimedia has been a forward-thinking and revolutionary organization, and I don't see why we can't lend a hand in promoting Ogg. They both have the same founding principles, and using Ogg helps inform the public about those principles (freedom of information, freedom of use). If we continue to take a stand, what do we have to lose? ~ MDD 46 96 02:49, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Looks like we’re at a standstill yet again. Ogg is completely free, but only the elite 3% of typical WP users use it (2% regularly). MP3 encoders have to be licensed, but it’s ubiquitous. We can’t use MP3 because open-source software can’t legally make them, and most people (think they) can’t use Ogg because their computers don’t know what it is. We can’t make a web-based player because there aren’t any open-source technologies to do so. Anyone who prefers MP3, can’t figure out how to play Ogg, or wants to use a portable MP3 player is screwed. And Jimbo’s a liar. — Frungi 08:15, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
There is a proposal over on m:Talk:Video policy primarily about video, but it applies equally to audio. The owner of a technology to stream Java for video / audio-only has engaged WP with a view to licensing it to WP for free. Java is estimated to be available on 9 out of every 10 computers connected to the internet, which would open up WP audio and video to a huge audience if it were offered in Java. Many people either don't know how to or do not want to get their hands dirty installing special video / audio player and other software. As Java typically comes as standard on new PCs then a Java system would make these problems go away for most people without them needing to do anything.
For authors, the technology has an upload facility, and is also integrated with / underpinned by an editing system that works for sound as well as moving pictures. An enhanced version is also used in a professional broadcast TV setting; it is a robust and reliable that works for a majority of people on the internet. The editing system is also written in pure Java so it too can be used on any broadband Java enabled internet connection.
If I ever have any video to distribute on the net, I always use this system as it is the most reliable and most convenient not only for myself as the author, but for the viewer (listener) too. I have also added several videos to WP using this system (these at present have to be added as external links). This holiday weekend in the UK I was out enjoying the (intermittent) sunshine. I shot some footage which I will circulate to family/friends - here's a short clip to demonstrate. The quality is VHS, not DVD, but it is IMO quite satisfactory for most purposes. The first base so far as internet video/audio is concerned is to actually get the playback working easily / reliably / conveniently for the intended audience (for WP this is the globe). A secondary consideration is to maximise playback quality. Here's another clip with some audio, the soundtrack was purchased on a royalty free basis by myself. The 'applet' can also be integrated into the fabric web pages. This could be made seemles in WP with a special construct for this type of applet.
There would be lots of practical details to work out - but if it is being offered to WP free - what other objections could there be for further detaining video / audio as the poor relations on WP. I would direct specific comments or questions to m:Talk:Video policy rather than this thread. mk 12:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I think I inserted my explanations on the wrong section altogether. Apologies, AppleJuggler 14:21, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
You could add that cinelerra supports Ogg Theora videos - that should help at least all users which are using Linux. -- 130.243.179.56 04:09, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
I recently uploaded a sample of a song ("Everything Went Numb" by Streetlight Manifesto — file, info) however I noticed on {{ music sample}} that one of the conditions is "There is no adequate free alternative available". Now this same song is available in it's entirety as a free (as in beer) mp3 download from the websites of both the band and the record label. My question is: do I link to said file, or do I upload a full version in OGG Vorbis format at the same bit rate? — Ian Moody ( talk) 17:38, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Should I ever make any sound files how can i covert them to an .ogg file. As far as I know the only recording program I have is Sound Recorder. Would I need another program in order to save as an ogg.
I just came across Prion, which seems to provide an audio file showing how to pronounce the title. In fact, it does no such thing: it links to webster.com's wav file.
Now, I don't agree with arguments that deep linking to other Web documents as if they were part of Wikipedia can constitute copyright infringement, but I certainly don't think providing such links is a good idea. If it looks like it's part of WP (which, to the casual observer, this does), then it really should be. I think in all cases it's better to do without an audio (video, etc.) file, for pronunciation or otherwise, until we can come up with an original one that we can release under the GFDL, or get permission to use the original under the GFDL (after encoding in Ogg Vorbis, of course). In any case, it wouldn't be possible to include such files on a CD (or whatever) accompanying a paper version of Wikipedia, or indeed in any form accompanying a self-contained derivative, unless we get such permission.
Is there any official opinion on this? Hairy Dude 18:53, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Many articles have pronunciations hosted on Wikipedia. I'm confidence that I'm not stepping out on a limb to tell you what that article was doing was completely foolish, not only does it violate our external link guidelines.. it's just rude. Please don't mistake the fact that you can find an example of almost anything on Wikipedia as evidence that the project as a whole supports the action... it's usually the case that no one else has noticed. I'll go fix the file. Thanks for pointing it out. -- Gmaxwell 00:21, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I've seen that some users have a lot of problems when dealing with Theora video files, one of the biggest is the file extension. The .ogg file extension normally applies to audio, so in most opearting systems a user downloads the file and the audio player starts it, because .ogg is associated with it. This is a big problem, because the average user won't know s/he should be using a video player instead.
Unofficially, the .ogm extension is used for Theora, and this is a good idea, because many video players can recognize this extension as theirs.
I believe this issue should at least get a voting. Should Jimbo Wales be contacted?
-- Saoshyant 13:20, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Hello there. I am working on an A-class article of an Indian music composer ( Ilaiyaraaja). I have recorded 30 second audio clips of this musician's songs in .ogg format, to include on his Wiki as sound samples. Now, my question is this: when I upload it onto the Wikipedia Commons, what sort of licensing should I select, since these are 30-second audio clips that I had created based on this musician's songs? Would appreciate a reply. Cheers, AppleJuggler 14:15, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
This entire page seems to have been written for nerds, by nerds. Can anyone explain in plain English how to listen to Ogg files? I've never read such unhelpful tips!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.82.90.43 ( talk • contribs) 02:26, 13 December 2006
--> Easy. Download Winamp, free-of-charge from the Internet. I'm sure you've heard of this media player program. It plays Ogg Vorbis files for your listening pleasure. Cheers, AppleJuggler 04:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
A summary of the arguments on both sides of this issue has been put on User:WAZAAAA/mp3vsogg. Hit up my talk page to give another reason for either side. Keep the discussion flowing, WAZAAAA 15:34, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
I understand a
final decision has been made on the use of MP3s in Wikipedia, but I think it is really hurting the Spoken Wiki and sound file collection projects. Every single time I try to show somebody some of my audio work on Wikipedia, I have to spend 10 minutes explaining why we don't use MP3, and what the hell this OGG thing is. After that, I have to explain how and where to get an OGG player or codec, hell, I have to explain what a codec is.
Wikipedia is great because it is simple, and even the most common user can enjoy what it has to offer relatively easily. The OGG format is holding the audio projects back from common use and popularity; alternative formats such as mp3 or a flash player (a la Google Video) should be seriously considered. I would guess more than 90 percent of normal (see: non-CS major) users don't have OGG playing capability on their computers, and I don't think they should be expected to call up their tech support neighbor to install it just to to hear an article about Jessica Simpson. A common format would allow users to easily get the files on their mp3 players, burn CDs, and share them with friends. Not everyone is sporting Linux. (Sorry for the rant!) - WAZAAAA 18:44, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Dual-format. Offer it in OGG *and* MPEG formats. — Phil Welch Are you a fan of the band Rush? 20:37, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, it looks like the decision has been made from "up above" not to include mp3, but why not use Flash, as many here have suggested? It doesn't seem too hard to do [1]. - Sesquialtera II 23:16, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
and No mp3 players support .ogg! <-- this post is from 70.178.95.216, sign your posts! - WAZAAAA 01:48, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
I guess I'm only echoing other sentiments here, but it seems unfortunate that sound files are the only part of Wikipedia that don't work "out of the box". I think people would be very unhappy if a similar situation existed for image files; i.e. one had to go through an installation process to see anything, and said process probably would not work on 25% of computers due to lack of administrative privileges. I personally like OGG a lot, but it's really frustrating to know that possibly a majority of users won't listen to recordings I might make for Wikipedia, because iTunes etc. won't play them. I guess what I am hoping for is some research into making sound files available by default on 90% or more computers, rather than setting the line at forcing the installation of new software. Sorry if this has been hashed over hundreds of times already. - Sesquialtera II 23:47, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I fully support using the Ogg Vorbis format, and I think it's reasonable to force people to use it. Anyone who really wants the audio will take the 3 minutes to download and set it up. It's not hard, and they only have to do it once. People complain, but those same people complain about everything on a computer.
Ogg Vorbis isn't as widely used as MP3 only because it isn't as widely known as MP3. Wikimedia has been a forward-thinking and revolutionary organization, and I don't see why we can't lend a hand in promoting Ogg. They both have the same founding principles, and using Ogg helps inform the public about those principles (freedom of information, freedom of use). If we continue to take a stand, what do we have to lose? ~ MDD 46 96 02:49, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Looks like we’re at a standstill yet again. Ogg is completely free, but only the elite 3% of typical WP users use it (2% regularly). MP3 encoders have to be licensed, but it’s ubiquitous. We can’t use MP3 because open-source software can’t legally make them, and most people (think they) can’t use Ogg because their computers don’t know what it is. We can’t make a web-based player because there aren’t any open-source technologies to do so. Anyone who prefers MP3, can’t figure out how to play Ogg, or wants to use a portable MP3 player is screwed. And Jimbo’s a liar. — Frungi 08:15, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
There is a proposal over on m:Talk:Video policy primarily about video, but it applies equally to audio. The owner of a technology to stream Java for video / audio-only has engaged WP with a view to licensing it to WP for free. Java is estimated to be available on 9 out of every 10 computers connected to the internet, which would open up WP audio and video to a huge audience if it were offered in Java. Many people either don't know how to or do not want to get their hands dirty installing special video / audio player and other software. As Java typically comes as standard on new PCs then a Java system would make these problems go away for most people without them needing to do anything.
For authors, the technology has an upload facility, and is also integrated with / underpinned by an editing system that works for sound as well as moving pictures. An enhanced version is also used in a professional broadcast TV setting; it is a robust and reliable that works for a majority of people on the internet. The editing system is also written in pure Java so it too can be used on any broadband Java enabled internet connection.
If I ever have any video to distribute on the net, I always use this system as it is the most reliable and most convenient not only for myself as the author, but for the viewer (listener) too. I have also added several videos to WP using this system (these at present have to be added as external links). This holiday weekend in the UK I was out enjoying the (intermittent) sunshine. I shot some footage which I will circulate to family/friends - here's a short clip to demonstrate. The quality is VHS, not DVD, but it is IMO quite satisfactory for most purposes. The first base so far as internet video/audio is concerned is to actually get the playback working easily / reliably / conveniently for the intended audience (for WP this is the globe). A secondary consideration is to maximise playback quality. Here's another clip with some audio, the soundtrack was purchased on a royalty free basis by myself. The 'applet' can also be integrated into the fabric web pages. This could be made seemles in WP with a special construct for this type of applet.
There would be lots of practical details to work out - but if it is being offered to WP free - what other objections could there be for further detaining video / audio as the poor relations on WP. I would direct specific comments or questions to m:Talk:Video policy rather than this thread. mk 12:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I think I inserted my explanations on the wrong section altogether. Apologies, AppleJuggler 14:21, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
You could add that cinelerra supports Ogg Theora videos - that should help at least all users which are using Linux. -- 130.243.179.56 04:09, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
I recently uploaded a sample of a song ("Everything Went Numb" by Streetlight Manifesto — file, info) however I noticed on {{ music sample}} that one of the conditions is "There is no adequate free alternative available". Now this same song is available in it's entirety as a free (as in beer) mp3 download from the websites of both the band and the record label. My question is: do I link to said file, or do I upload a full version in OGG Vorbis format at the same bit rate? — Ian Moody ( talk) 17:38, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Should I ever make any sound files how can i covert them to an .ogg file. As far as I know the only recording program I have is Sound Recorder. Would I need another program in order to save as an ogg.
I just came across Prion, which seems to provide an audio file showing how to pronounce the title. In fact, it does no such thing: it links to webster.com's wav file.
Now, I don't agree with arguments that deep linking to other Web documents as if they were part of Wikipedia can constitute copyright infringement, but I certainly don't think providing such links is a good idea. If it looks like it's part of WP (which, to the casual observer, this does), then it really should be. I think in all cases it's better to do without an audio (video, etc.) file, for pronunciation or otherwise, until we can come up with an original one that we can release under the GFDL, or get permission to use the original under the GFDL (after encoding in Ogg Vorbis, of course). In any case, it wouldn't be possible to include such files on a CD (or whatever) accompanying a paper version of Wikipedia, or indeed in any form accompanying a self-contained derivative, unless we get such permission.
Is there any official opinion on this? Hairy Dude 18:53, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Many articles have pronunciations hosted on Wikipedia. I'm confidence that I'm not stepping out on a limb to tell you what that article was doing was completely foolish, not only does it violate our external link guidelines.. it's just rude. Please don't mistake the fact that you can find an example of almost anything on Wikipedia as evidence that the project as a whole supports the action... it's usually the case that no one else has noticed. I'll go fix the file. Thanks for pointing it out. -- Gmaxwell 00:21, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I've seen that some users have a lot of problems when dealing with Theora video files, one of the biggest is the file extension. The .ogg file extension normally applies to audio, so in most opearting systems a user downloads the file and the audio player starts it, because .ogg is associated with it. This is a big problem, because the average user won't know s/he should be using a video player instead.
Unofficially, the .ogm extension is used for Theora, and this is a good idea, because many video players can recognize this extension as theirs.
I believe this issue should at least get a voting. Should Jimbo Wales be contacted?
-- Saoshyant 13:20, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Hello there. I am working on an A-class article of an Indian music composer ( Ilaiyaraaja). I have recorded 30 second audio clips of this musician's songs in .ogg format, to include on his Wiki as sound samples. Now, my question is this: when I upload it onto the Wikipedia Commons, what sort of licensing should I select, since these are 30-second audio clips that I had created based on this musician's songs? Would appreciate a reply. Cheers, AppleJuggler 14:15, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
This entire page seems to have been written for nerds, by nerds. Can anyone explain in plain English how to listen to Ogg files? I've never read such unhelpful tips!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.82.90.43 ( talk • contribs) 02:26, 13 December 2006
--> Easy. Download Winamp, free-of-charge from the Internet. I'm sure you've heard of this media player program. It plays Ogg Vorbis files for your listening pleasure. Cheers, AppleJuggler 04:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)