![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article was nominated for merging with Apostasy in Islam in the past. The result of the discussion ( permanent link) was to not merge. |
|
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Growth of religion was copied or moved into Ex-Muslims with this edit on 16 July 2023. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
In:Volume 11: Issue 1 Publisher: Brill
Bookku ( talk) 09:04, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' ( talk) 02:21, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
While reading Cotee's I came across few points that would help to differentiate this article from Apostasy in Islam and it will be pertinent to jot down those points here being indirectly relevant for later discussions.
IMO, basically difference is of Islamic perspective and ex-Muslim perspective since ex-Muslim do not remain Muslim once they leave Islam and thus perspective changes. And encyclopedia need to cover Muslim as well as ex-Muslim perspectives and this particular article attempts to cover primarily ex-Muslim perspective.
Cotee say's about focus of his authorship is on in his own words(p.4):
One of the concern we discussed at User talk:Nederlandse Leeuw is differentiating between with article Apostasy in Islam so as not to overlap the content.
To the minimum " Ex-Muslim activism" remains an independent scope topic.
As of now what else this article is covering and at Apostasy in Islam is
User:Nederlandse Leeuw says on his talk page: "....sociological perspective of ex-Muslims themselves. This is mostly missing from the article 'Apostasy in Islam', which mostly takes an Islamic theological/legal and a human rights perspective, but doesn't really talk about the psychological and social processes which individual people who leave Islam go through. I'm not sure if this (a) merits a separate article, (b) fits under the title 'ex-Muslim movement', or (c) should be merged into Apostasy in Islam, but I'm convinced it has added encyclopedic value and it's worthwile to write about. Whether it should be merged wtih 'Apostasy in Islam' is not necessarily something we need to decide right now, so we can begin our work already...."
and User:Normal Op says What you are describing fits under life-after-cults, or any "life after" any of several tightly-controlled groups that operate using mind control, belief systems, and pressures (by society, the group, and an individual's family). Though one might think that it could fit under any other wiki article about "leaving cults" (I don't even know if there are any), the ex-Muslim has struggles unique to Islam, Islamic culture, and Arabic-type cultures. I applaud you for tackling the subject as a new article, because the material is VAST. As to the name of the article, I recommend you keep working on the draft (as I see is being done) and the name will fall into place later. I implore you not to select a lengthy title, such as Ex-Muslim thought, life and activism, because that sounds like the title of a book, not a wiki article. Good luck on this venture, and do let me know if I can help....
Just jotted down for latter. discussions. While work on the article is still in process let me express my deepest gratitude to User:Nederlandse Leeuw and User:Normal Op for their inputs and pro-active contribution to the article.
Thanks and regards
Bookku ( talk) 08:30, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
If we get RS refs a sub-section can be added pertaining to themes and slogan IMO.
Bookku ( talk) 11:55, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
If we get RS refs a sub-section can be added pertaining to themes and 'Online platforms' IMO.
Bookku ( talk) 10:13, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
Hi, thanks for your comment @ Q:Talk:Apostasy in Islam#Leaving Islam. I am not conversant enough with all of Wikiquote rules, but what do I request you to have a look at this en-wikipedia talk page and the draft article about Draft:ex-Muslims.
While I can't predict what en-Wikipedia community takes decision about name for this article but you will notice majior focus of this article is 'Why and How of Leaving Islam'. Secondly if we name q:Leaving Islam as q:Ex-Muslims then other wikiquote users might create hassles to accept quotes if words 'apostasy or ex-Muslim' not found in text but texts refers to reason and discussion on leaving Islam.
I don't know how to put forward my concerns on wikiquote and I seek your help in the same respect.
Thanks and warm regards
Bookku ( talk) 14:29, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
I have added Draft talk:Ex-Muslims/to do at top of this talk page. Initial part of the article has become heavily dependent on academic study based references relating to "Study of Sociological approaches to leaving Islam". While starting the article it was not necessarily intended but since being reliable sources got the priority. Article needs further be updated with ex-Muslim experiences from their own books articles more.(again one need to segregate content created by ex-Muslims themselves in primary and secondary and also do without infringing on copyright aspects).
Lot many of ex-Muslims are on Youtube but again I was not sure which YouTube would be okay and which one not as Wikipedia Reliable source so I left that till we discuss more on talk page.
As said in earlier section Draft talk:Ex-Muslims#Need of the article difference between this article from Apostasy in Islam is basically of perspectives and focus. It is for Wikipedians to discuss more whether we should retain this article as single one or split and fork.
As a single article it can own up any of all all of article titles Ex-Muslim, Ex-Muslims, Former Muslim, Leaving Islam (Which are redirected else where as of now or strive for any of following titles or readers can suggest some other title.
The other option is split and fork where in fork out separate article ex-Muslim movement and leave Sociological part for Ex-Muslims article of Leaving Islam article.
And again in spite of differences in perspective and focus some might suggest to merge other that ex-Muslim movement to Apostasy in Islam; as a Wikipedia user what are your opinions pl. do discuss here. In first round of discussion I will invite who are particularly interested in this topic. Later we can invite more inputs from general Wikipedians too.
Bookku ( talk) 08:44, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
Greetings Bookku! I have done a lot of work on atheism and I am willing to help get this article to mainspace and, eventually, good article status (maybe even FA one day). Do you mind if I work on this draft? Cheers. Wretchskull ( talk) 13:31, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
@ Bookku: Well done! Now that your work is on mainspace, I will try to copyedit as well as use short citations instead of full book references. What do you think of sfn-refs? Wretchskull ( talk) 12:43, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
@ Wretchskull: Following ref is hopefully expected to become available by July or August since the book is yet to become available officially. May be you want to suggest short Ref style so I will practice and use same when ref document becomes available. Bookku ( talk) 14:21, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
Vliek, Maria (2021).
"Conclusion". Former Muslims in Europe: Between Secularity and Belonging. Abingdon Oxon: Routlege: 196-203.
ISBN
978-1-003-14357-4.
@ Wretchskull:
@ Wretchskull: Thanks for your continued support.
Thanks Bookku ( talk) 16:57, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
In section Humor as activism tool we have used as is large Quote of Lena Richter since content seems to be registered under similar licence to Wikipedia, the MDPI journal webpage has foot note which reads as "This is an open access article distributed under the Creative Commons Attribution License which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original work is properly cited " When clicked on Creative Commons Attribution License link opens @ CCBY 4.0
Bookku ( talk) 18:12, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
To be contd. Bookku ( talk) 16:57, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
I propose that this article be merged into Apostasy in Islam since it is a prohibited POVFORK (see, e.g., "And encyclopedia need to cover Muslim as well as ex-Muslim perspectives and this particular article attempts to cover primarily ex-Muslim perspective"). Please continue and contribute to the discussion regarding this proposal on the Apostasy in Islam talk page. Snuish ( talk) 07:13, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
It seems some one / few from Ex-Muslims of Kerala community have attempted few good faith edits and we need to re-examine some of those and only retaining good ones with sources as per Wikipedia prevailing norms.
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' ( talk) 06:00, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This section's factual accuracy is
disputed. (October 2021) |
named Ex-Muslims of Kerala. [1]
On 16th August 2021, two women who have a connection with IS arrested by National Investigation Agency (NIA) from Kannur, Kerala , have made a public appeal to assassin Jamitha Teacher, an ex-Muslim who became a popular Youtuber. [2]
References
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reasons for deletion at the file description pages linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 18:52, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
The edit attributed to the journalist Tufail Ahmad has been tagged with Template:Unreliable source? vide the ' edit dif'.
In brief: to best of my perception Tufail Ahmad in himself is credible and reliable journalist enough to stand above any platform they would write for. And even when with Firstpost their news report seem neutral and credible enough.
Detail:
To best of my perception Tufail Ahmad, the journalist, who has worked with news organization of repute like BBC long enough would be aware of journalistic responsibilities and would have enough credibility of own to stand above platforms he would write for.
Even when he wrote for Firstpost, in the same period his other articles can be seen to express concerns for Muslims, also criticize government of the day and all where he thinks that is due.
To my perception, even before and after his Firspost tenure Ahmad can be very well seen speaking his own mind, i.e. independent enough, through his reports. At times expressing concerns for Muslims and at other times taking liberal reformist position about Islam. I suppose, no one would hold, Ahmad having liberal reformist and anti-extremism position in itself, against Ahmad to question Ahmad's journalistic credibility.
Educationally, besides Post-Graduate Diploma in journalism, Ahmad seem to have education in Sociology and social systems from universities like Aligarh Muslim University and Jawaharlal Nehru University.
When I checked archives of WP:RSN concerns about Firstpost seem largely about political and entertainment related reporting. Ahmad's cited reporting used in this article is neither political nor entertainment and carries positive weight of Ahmad's own credibility.
This is my perception other editors may have other points and I am respectful to other views too, so please feel free to share.
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article was nominated for merging with Apostasy in Islam in the past. The result of the discussion ( permanent link) was to not merge. |
|
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Growth of religion was copied or moved into Ex-Muslims with this edit on 16 July 2023. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
In:Volume 11: Issue 1 Publisher: Brill
Bookku ( talk) 09:04, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' ( talk) 02:21, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
While reading Cotee's I came across few points that would help to differentiate this article from Apostasy in Islam and it will be pertinent to jot down those points here being indirectly relevant for later discussions.
IMO, basically difference is of Islamic perspective and ex-Muslim perspective since ex-Muslim do not remain Muslim once they leave Islam and thus perspective changes. And encyclopedia need to cover Muslim as well as ex-Muslim perspectives and this particular article attempts to cover primarily ex-Muslim perspective.
Cotee say's about focus of his authorship is on in his own words(p.4):
One of the concern we discussed at User talk:Nederlandse Leeuw is differentiating between with article Apostasy in Islam so as not to overlap the content.
To the minimum " Ex-Muslim activism" remains an independent scope topic.
As of now what else this article is covering and at Apostasy in Islam is
User:Nederlandse Leeuw says on his talk page: "....sociological perspective of ex-Muslims themselves. This is mostly missing from the article 'Apostasy in Islam', which mostly takes an Islamic theological/legal and a human rights perspective, but doesn't really talk about the psychological and social processes which individual people who leave Islam go through. I'm not sure if this (a) merits a separate article, (b) fits under the title 'ex-Muslim movement', or (c) should be merged into Apostasy in Islam, but I'm convinced it has added encyclopedic value and it's worthwile to write about. Whether it should be merged wtih 'Apostasy in Islam' is not necessarily something we need to decide right now, so we can begin our work already...."
and User:Normal Op says What you are describing fits under life-after-cults, or any "life after" any of several tightly-controlled groups that operate using mind control, belief systems, and pressures (by society, the group, and an individual's family). Though one might think that it could fit under any other wiki article about "leaving cults" (I don't even know if there are any), the ex-Muslim has struggles unique to Islam, Islamic culture, and Arabic-type cultures. I applaud you for tackling the subject as a new article, because the material is VAST. As to the name of the article, I recommend you keep working on the draft (as I see is being done) and the name will fall into place later. I implore you not to select a lengthy title, such as Ex-Muslim thought, life and activism, because that sounds like the title of a book, not a wiki article. Good luck on this venture, and do let me know if I can help....
Just jotted down for latter. discussions. While work on the article is still in process let me express my deepest gratitude to User:Nederlandse Leeuw and User:Normal Op for their inputs and pro-active contribution to the article.
Thanks and regards
Bookku ( talk) 08:30, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
If we get RS refs a sub-section can be added pertaining to themes and slogan IMO.
Bookku ( talk) 11:55, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
If we get RS refs a sub-section can be added pertaining to themes and 'Online platforms' IMO.
Bookku ( talk) 10:13, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
Hi, thanks for your comment @ Q:Talk:Apostasy in Islam#Leaving Islam. I am not conversant enough with all of Wikiquote rules, but what do I request you to have a look at this en-wikipedia talk page and the draft article about Draft:ex-Muslims.
While I can't predict what en-Wikipedia community takes decision about name for this article but you will notice majior focus of this article is 'Why and How of Leaving Islam'. Secondly if we name q:Leaving Islam as q:Ex-Muslims then other wikiquote users might create hassles to accept quotes if words 'apostasy or ex-Muslim' not found in text but texts refers to reason and discussion on leaving Islam.
I don't know how to put forward my concerns on wikiquote and I seek your help in the same respect.
Thanks and warm regards
Bookku ( talk) 14:29, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
I have added Draft talk:Ex-Muslims/to do at top of this talk page. Initial part of the article has become heavily dependent on academic study based references relating to "Study of Sociological approaches to leaving Islam". While starting the article it was not necessarily intended but since being reliable sources got the priority. Article needs further be updated with ex-Muslim experiences from their own books articles more.(again one need to segregate content created by ex-Muslims themselves in primary and secondary and also do without infringing on copyright aspects).
Lot many of ex-Muslims are on Youtube but again I was not sure which YouTube would be okay and which one not as Wikipedia Reliable source so I left that till we discuss more on talk page.
As said in earlier section Draft talk:Ex-Muslims#Need of the article difference between this article from Apostasy in Islam is basically of perspectives and focus. It is for Wikipedians to discuss more whether we should retain this article as single one or split and fork.
As a single article it can own up any of all all of article titles Ex-Muslim, Ex-Muslims, Former Muslim, Leaving Islam (Which are redirected else where as of now or strive for any of following titles or readers can suggest some other title.
The other option is split and fork where in fork out separate article ex-Muslim movement and leave Sociological part for Ex-Muslims article of Leaving Islam article.
And again in spite of differences in perspective and focus some might suggest to merge other that ex-Muslim movement to Apostasy in Islam; as a Wikipedia user what are your opinions pl. do discuss here. In first round of discussion I will invite who are particularly interested in this topic. Later we can invite more inputs from general Wikipedians too.
Bookku ( talk) 08:44, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
Greetings Bookku! I have done a lot of work on atheism and I am willing to help get this article to mainspace and, eventually, good article status (maybe even FA one day). Do you mind if I work on this draft? Cheers. Wretchskull ( talk) 13:31, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
@ Bookku: Well done! Now that your work is on mainspace, I will try to copyedit as well as use short citations instead of full book references. What do you think of sfn-refs? Wretchskull ( talk) 12:43, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
@ Wretchskull: Following ref is hopefully expected to become available by July or August since the book is yet to become available officially. May be you want to suggest short Ref style so I will practice and use same when ref document becomes available. Bookku ( talk) 14:21, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
Vliek, Maria (2021).
"Conclusion". Former Muslims in Europe: Between Secularity and Belonging. Abingdon Oxon: Routlege: 196-203.
ISBN
978-1-003-14357-4.
@ Wretchskull:
@ Wretchskull: Thanks for your continued support.
Thanks Bookku ( talk) 16:57, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
In section Humor as activism tool we have used as is large Quote of Lena Richter since content seems to be registered under similar licence to Wikipedia, the MDPI journal webpage has foot note which reads as "This is an open access article distributed under the Creative Commons Attribution License which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original work is properly cited " When clicked on Creative Commons Attribution License link opens @ CCBY 4.0
Bookku ( talk) 18:12, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
To be contd. Bookku ( talk) 16:57, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
I propose that this article be merged into Apostasy in Islam since it is a prohibited POVFORK (see, e.g., "And encyclopedia need to cover Muslim as well as ex-Muslim perspectives and this particular article attempts to cover primarily ex-Muslim perspective"). Please continue and contribute to the discussion regarding this proposal on the Apostasy in Islam talk page. Snuish ( talk) 07:13, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
It seems some one / few from Ex-Muslims of Kerala community have attempted few good faith edits and we need to re-examine some of those and only retaining good ones with sources as per Wikipedia prevailing norms.
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' ( talk) 06:00, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This section's factual accuracy is
disputed. (October 2021) |
named Ex-Muslims of Kerala. [1]
On 16th August 2021, two women who have a connection with IS arrested by National Investigation Agency (NIA) from Kannur, Kerala , have made a public appeal to assassin Jamitha Teacher, an ex-Muslim who became a popular Youtuber. [2]
References
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reasons for deletion at the file description pages linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 18:52, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
The edit attributed to the journalist Tufail Ahmad has been tagged with Template:Unreliable source? vide the ' edit dif'.
In brief: to best of my perception Tufail Ahmad in himself is credible and reliable journalist enough to stand above any platform they would write for. And even when with Firstpost their news report seem neutral and credible enough.
Detail:
To best of my perception Tufail Ahmad, the journalist, who has worked with news organization of repute like BBC long enough would be aware of journalistic responsibilities and would have enough credibility of own to stand above platforms he would write for.
Even when he wrote for Firstpost, in the same period his other articles can be seen to express concerns for Muslims, also criticize government of the day and all where he thinks that is due.
To my perception, even before and after his Firspost tenure Ahmad can be very well seen speaking his own mind, i.e. independent enough, through his reports. At times expressing concerns for Muslims and at other times taking liberal reformist position about Islam. I suppose, no one would hold, Ahmad having liberal reformist and anti-extremism position in itself, against Ahmad to question Ahmad's journalistic credibility.
Educationally, besides Post-Graduate Diploma in journalism, Ahmad seem to have education in Sociology and social systems from universities like Aligarh Muslim University and Jawaharlal Nehru University.
When I checked archives of WP:RSN concerns about Firstpost seem largely about political and entertainment related reporting. Ahmad's cited reporting used in this article is neither political nor entertainment and carries positive weight of Ahmad's own credibility.
This is my perception other editors may have other points and I am respectful to other views too, so please feel free to share.