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Should there be a category "Children of American Slaves?" Slavery surely made a lasting impact on persons descended from (former) slaves. Pastorwayne 16:51, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
( Note: The first three posts in this thread were copy-pasted by me from Alan Liefting's talk/discussion page. – OhioStandard ( talk) 08:35, 4 August 2010 (UTC) )
Hi Alan -
I was looking at what you'd done with cannabis-related categories, and noticed you'd made some very rapid-fire changes using HotCat around categorization for slavery, and particularly for slavery in the United States. Some of those seemed beneficial, but many also seemed erroneous to me, and I've reverted or modified those as indicated, for the reasons given following their associated links, provided below.
(1) Herbert Aptheker. It appears from the article that this author wrote extensively about slavery in the U.S.A., and that it would be helpful rather than otherwise to include the article about him in the category, "Slavery in the United States" (SITUS). I reverted your deletion of that category from the article.
(2) James Osgood Andrew. It appears to me that prominent/notable slave holders ( the phrase "slave owners" is prima facie offensive ) in the United States are appropriately included in the SITUS category. ( Or perhaps you'd prefer to create an additional category under SITUS, something like "Prominent American slave holders", and add the subject to that? ) I reverted your deletion of the SITUS category.
(3) John K. Kane. This judge is notable, according to the article about him, for his actions in favor of slavery, and especialy for his 1855 pro-slavery verdict in which he "denied the escaped slave all legal rights and placed legal penalties on the actions of abolitionists." You removed the article about him from the SITUS category; I let that stand but, based on the contents of the article, added the category "American pro-slavery activists", which is included in the SITUS category. This one is a judgment call, admittedly, since the judge colluded with his son's anti-slavery activities, but he also jailed his son for contempt of court over the matter. On balance, his legacy is that of an activist promoting slavery, imo.
(4) Matthew Ashby. Here you removed the category SITUS from the article. In keeping with the example present in the article about former slave, Thomas Sims, I've added the category "American slaves" to the article, which is included in the SITUS category.
(5) Andrew Bryan. Here you removed the category SITUS from the article. The article's just a stub, but if you follow the links it contains you'll see that, as the article's creator rightly puts it, "Bryan has an interesting and dramatic biography", and a rightful place in the history of slavery in the United States. I restored the SITUS category to the article/stub for this reason, and also categorized it under "American slaves", which is included in SITUS, btw.
(6) John Crenshaw. You deleted the SITUS category, and added the "Slave traders" category. Based on the article's description of Crenshaw as "an American landowner and slave trader based out of Gallatin County, Illinois", and that he appears to have been involved in slavery only within the U.S.A., I deleted the "Slave traders" category and added the "American slave traders" category (which is, of course, subsumed under "Slave traders", and also under SITUS in a parallel fashion).
(7) Slave_Auction_Scene.jpg. Here you removed the SITUS category from an image, that was "Apparently taken at the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library and Museum, Springfield, Illinois", and thus seems appropriately categorized under SITUS. ( Although I admit I'm unsure as to the rules used to categorize images. ) I reverted your deletion of the category from the image.
(8) Runaway_slave.jpg. Since this image originated in a book about the Underground Railroad, it seems to me to have been appropriately included in the SITUS category. I reverted your deletion of the SITUS category from the image.
If you object to any of these changes, please provide your rationale below ( rather than inline, ie not within the flow of this post, please ) and we'll see if we can come to agreement or compromise as to the way the above can be categorized most beneficially. Best, – OhioStandard ( talk) 18:26, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
My numbering is correct.
1. The category with the contents you suggest would not be recommended.
4. The 200 page limit is what is fitted into one category page. It is not the limit for the category as a whole. I prefer to keep the contents of a category within those limits if practicable to make navigation easier for the reader. Of course, this cannot always be done but for a category such as this it is a worthwhile and achievable goal.
7.
Wikipedia:Categorization#Images states what can be done. It is not a policy or guideline. I should have said the by convention images are not used in article categories. There is a series of categories starting at
Category:Image galleries that have Wikipedia images.
8. ditto
I don't believe my edits were bold and I do not engage in edit wars. I rarely do a second revert. --
Alan Liefting (
talk) -
09:52, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categorization#Images states what can be done. It is not a policy or guideline. I should have said the by convention images are not used in article categories. There is a series of categories starting at Category:Image galleries that have Wikipedia images.
It is an unwritten convention that images are not included in article categories. If you look at the vast majority of categories (apart from ones set up for images alone) you will find that there are no image thumbnails. Other editors agree. See User_talk:Alan_Liefting/Archive_10#Blanking_commons_images. Commons policy is not necessarily used on WP especially since it is used heavily for images. Also, Wikipedia_talk:Categorization/Archive_6#Images_in_categories and Wikipedia_talk:Categorization/Archive_8#Images_in_categories suggest that there is support for removing the images.
A Category:Slaveholders or suchlike is an option. Note that there is a List of slave owners. A list is a better idea since it allows for annotation. -- Alan Liefting ( talk) - 11:10, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
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Should there be a category "Children of American Slaves?" Slavery surely made a lasting impact on persons descended from (former) slaves. Pastorwayne 16:51, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
( Note: The first three posts in this thread were copy-pasted by me from Alan Liefting's talk/discussion page. – OhioStandard ( talk) 08:35, 4 August 2010 (UTC) )
Hi Alan -
I was looking at what you'd done with cannabis-related categories, and noticed you'd made some very rapid-fire changes using HotCat around categorization for slavery, and particularly for slavery in the United States. Some of those seemed beneficial, but many also seemed erroneous to me, and I've reverted or modified those as indicated, for the reasons given following their associated links, provided below.
(1) Herbert Aptheker. It appears from the article that this author wrote extensively about slavery in the U.S.A., and that it would be helpful rather than otherwise to include the article about him in the category, "Slavery in the United States" (SITUS). I reverted your deletion of that category from the article.
(2) James Osgood Andrew. It appears to me that prominent/notable slave holders ( the phrase "slave owners" is prima facie offensive ) in the United States are appropriately included in the SITUS category. ( Or perhaps you'd prefer to create an additional category under SITUS, something like "Prominent American slave holders", and add the subject to that? ) I reverted your deletion of the SITUS category.
(3) John K. Kane. This judge is notable, according to the article about him, for his actions in favor of slavery, and especialy for his 1855 pro-slavery verdict in which he "denied the escaped slave all legal rights and placed legal penalties on the actions of abolitionists." You removed the article about him from the SITUS category; I let that stand but, based on the contents of the article, added the category "American pro-slavery activists", which is included in the SITUS category. This one is a judgment call, admittedly, since the judge colluded with his son's anti-slavery activities, but he also jailed his son for contempt of court over the matter. On balance, his legacy is that of an activist promoting slavery, imo.
(4) Matthew Ashby. Here you removed the category SITUS from the article. In keeping with the example present in the article about former slave, Thomas Sims, I've added the category "American slaves" to the article, which is included in the SITUS category.
(5) Andrew Bryan. Here you removed the category SITUS from the article. The article's just a stub, but if you follow the links it contains you'll see that, as the article's creator rightly puts it, "Bryan has an interesting and dramatic biography", and a rightful place in the history of slavery in the United States. I restored the SITUS category to the article/stub for this reason, and also categorized it under "American slaves", which is included in SITUS, btw.
(6) John Crenshaw. You deleted the SITUS category, and added the "Slave traders" category. Based on the article's description of Crenshaw as "an American landowner and slave trader based out of Gallatin County, Illinois", and that he appears to have been involved in slavery only within the U.S.A., I deleted the "Slave traders" category and added the "American slave traders" category (which is, of course, subsumed under "Slave traders", and also under SITUS in a parallel fashion).
(7) Slave_Auction_Scene.jpg. Here you removed the SITUS category from an image, that was "Apparently taken at the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library and Museum, Springfield, Illinois", and thus seems appropriately categorized under SITUS. ( Although I admit I'm unsure as to the rules used to categorize images. ) I reverted your deletion of the category from the image.
(8) Runaway_slave.jpg. Since this image originated in a book about the Underground Railroad, it seems to me to have been appropriately included in the SITUS category. I reverted your deletion of the SITUS category from the image.
If you object to any of these changes, please provide your rationale below ( rather than inline, ie not within the flow of this post, please ) and we'll see if we can come to agreement or compromise as to the way the above can be categorized most beneficially. Best, – OhioStandard ( talk) 18:26, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
My numbering is correct.
1. The category with the contents you suggest would not be recommended.
4. The 200 page limit is what is fitted into one category page. It is not the limit for the category as a whole. I prefer to keep the contents of a category within those limits if practicable to make navigation easier for the reader. Of course, this cannot always be done but for a category such as this it is a worthwhile and achievable goal.
7.
Wikipedia:Categorization#Images states what can be done. It is not a policy or guideline. I should have said the by convention images are not used in article categories. There is a series of categories starting at
Category:Image galleries that have Wikipedia images.
8. ditto
I don't believe my edits were bold and I do not engage in edit wars. I rarely do a second revert. --
Alan Liefting (
talk) -
09:52, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categorization#Images states what can be done. It is not a policy or guideline. I should have said the by convention images are not used in article categories. There is a series of categories starting at Category:Image galleries that have Wikipedia images.
It is an unwritten convention that images are not included in article categories. If you look at the vast majority of categories (apart from ones set up for images alone) you will find that there are no image thumbnails. Other editors agree. See User_talk:Alan_Liefting/Archive_10#Blanking_commons_images. Commons policy is not necessarily used on WP especially since it is used heavily for images. Also, Wikipedia_talk:Categorization/Archive_6#Images_in_categories and Wikipedia_talk:Categorization/Archive_8#Images_in_categories suggest that there is support for removing the images.
A Category:Slaveholders or suchlike is an option. Note that there is a List of slave owners. A list is a better idea since it allows for annotation. -- Alan Liefting ( talk) - 11:10, 6 August 2010 (UTC)