Note: If for some reason WikiProject U.S. states (or anyone else) decides to delete this page, please instead move it to User:MrD9/state templates. Thanks. // MrD9 06:31, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
An effort to standardize U.S. state templates has already begun and is currently in progress. You can assist editors who are contributing to the standardization by either joining this discussion or, if you are skilled in CSS and wiki markup, restyling the templates so that they conform with already standardized templates such as Template:Alaska and Template:Colorado.
The following templates are currently being debated, whether here, on templates' talk pages, or on users' talk pages. Please take care when making major edits to them before a consensus is reached.
— Webdinger BLAH | SZ 01:15, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I think we could start harmonize all U.S. states/state templates. I already harmonized Template:Alaska and Template:Hawaii couple days ago. The reason is that I went to this page Wikipedia:Canadian wikipedians' notice board/discussion#Harmonizing province templates 4 days ago. User:BigBang11 22 March 2006 21:23 PST (UTC)
I know I am entering this discussion late, but as requested will share my thoughts on nav boxes in general and state templates in particular. Many of us, myself included, have been designing nav boxes for every conceivable purpose, until some of our articles have become bottom heavy, to say the least, with nav boxes. Once several people made this clear to me, I began trying to figure out designs for high level nav boxes that could be used on many articles, and basically lead the reader into the information already in categories. Clearly in the U.S. the various states are an appropriate high level nav box, as is, I think, the Federal Government & Congress. My goal is to see a design that 1) can limit the number of nav boxes on a biography to two or three, 2) can have nav boxes that are small and concise, and 3) can look professional with colors/placement and not just hung together.
I think this means scaling way back the listings of cities & counties on the state boxes and balancing them with the other categories of information. So if a reader needs to see other Governors, the nav box should lead them into the appropriate category, likewise other cities, and so on. There really is no need to repeat all the counties in a state, or states in the union, every time an article has horizontal applicability. The categories already do that. The arrangement of information on the Template:Delaware is my best attempt so far to achieve this. I'm sure it can be improved upon, but I don't think the current standarization drive helsp or hurts goal 1 or 2, and I think it goes backwards on goal 3. But, I also want standarization and look forward to working with the group to get the best of all worlds accross the board. stilltim 02:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
By moving the link to the list of towns from its own line to a "topics" line ignores the fact that towns in New England are more like cities in other states - they are incorporated municipalities that differ from cities in their frame of government, not their state of existence. This type of change should be discussed. Other than that, I think standardization is a wonderful thing. Sahasrahla 23:47, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
A question that came up with Lovelac7's recent edits to Template:Florida was whether the state seal should be incorporated into its respective state template. I personally believe that the state flag is sufficient—some non-U.S. residents may want a map of the United States with the state highlighted on it, but for now, I believe the solution of keeping the state flag on the right is sufficient. Should the state seal be included in templates? — Webdinger BLAH | SZ 01:18, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Yesterday, User:The Future redesigned the Montana template with a class="NavContent", meaning that the bottom part of the template is hidable. I've tried to work this feature into the semi-standards of the other state templates. The Montana experiment looks good on my computer in the Montana article and in the Template namespace, but for some reason, it looks bad on this page. That, and the [Hide] tag is stuck to far up in the corner. I'm no CSS expert, so if anyone knows how to fix this, jump right in. If we can get it working well enough, I propose that we add it to all templates. What do you think? Lovelac7 09:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I like Lovelac7's edit to the template. I tried keeping the same format as is and just add the hide/show, but I couldn't figure it out. (But thanks Lovelac7 for showing me how :P) Schzmo, I understand that you having the template hide/show prevents it from being viewed by default. I believe the hide/show will be effective mostly for articles like George W. Bush where the entire bottom of the page is crammed with 4-5 templates. If we hide/showed the templates, it will make it realy much easier for things to be viewed. Suppose that {{ Montana}} wasn't the only template on one page? Say 2 or 3? If you just want to see one template all you have to do is click the "show" feature and you see that one template, which takes away time from scrolling through the templates. It doesn't take away the consiseness of the template anyways.. Theres really no reason why we should be as lazy as to point and click to view.. — The Future 19:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Recently Lovelac7 has been making edits to templates changing a standard I was following by modifying the font size of headings from 16px to 12px. I believe 16px is a better font size for readability and discernability. We need to establish the heading font size quickly. — Webdinger BLAH | SZ 21:42, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
To figure out what the consensus is, I'd like to summarize some of the debates from above. Like other "votes" on the Wikipedia, the argument is more important than the vote. Let's begin. Note: This straw poll is not official for all state templates. Those being debated do not need to conform to the results.
I've centered this text. Is this easy to read? No.
These lists should be aligned to the left. What happens with centering is that there is usually a word left "hanging" at the end of the article. The other thing that takes me back to my Uni days where one of my graphic design professor used to put-down his students for poor design is that no-one on Wikipedia seems to know how to valign=top. The default horizontal alignment to the center looks so unprofessional. Valign top is also much easier to follow. -- Kunzite 05:35, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
State of
Michigan Lansing ( Capital) |
See, in this form, it looks nice and simple. Why must it be standardized? I'm sorry, I just don't get it (pardon my curtness, I realize your goals are probably good, I just don't fully understand)... Matt Yeager ♫ ( Talk?) 04:47, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
This discussion has been lying dormant for over a week now. Let's come up with the results of our "straw poll" and what we will place into the new standardized state templates (except those being debated, of course). Standardization according to this consensus can commence immediately.
Areas apparently with no consensus:
— Webdinger BLAH | SZ 03:27, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Template:New Hampshire and several others include large lists of municipalities. I was wondering if there is a consensus for inclusion of Cities. It would seem to me that having a list of the top 20 or so cities would be the most appropriate balance between template size and template inclusiveness. Is there a guideline for population? Like only including MSA's or cities over 100k, 75k or 50k population or top 10 or 20 sized cites? -- Dual Freq 12:21, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I've seen debate here regarding the specifics and minutiae of which spacing to use, how many links (e.g. cities) to include in a template, but I don't see any discussion of the purpose of all this effort. I'm not sure if the benefits of standardizing the templates outweigh the disadvantages of doing so. If we're talking about style, that is, simple colors, fonts, spacing, centering, location of state emblem and state flag, then I can understand the motivation for standardization.
However, requiring each state to the same content seems unnecessary and overbearing. There is huge variation between the states. Some states like California and Texas have many MSAs (where M stands for Metropolitan in this case, not Micropolitan), while others have only a few. Some states have many counties, like Texas (254), Georgia (159), or Kentucky (120), while others have very few, like Delaware (3) or Rhode Island (5). Some states have many cities above a certain minimum population. I'm sure CA, TX, FL, IL, and NY would have many while VT, ND, and WY would have very few. If a constant cutoff population is not intended to be used for every state, then perhaps (for instance) the 20 most populuous cities would be listed for each state. In that case, would Newcastle, Wyoming (pop. 3,221) really be as important Irvine, California (pop. 186,852) or Waco, Texas (pop. 120,465), even though each is the 20th most-populous city in its respective state?
Different things matter to different states. Forcing the same information to appear in each template for every state of the Union (and territories) does not seem to have a net benefit, certainly not for the reader.
Also, if {{ Template:Alaska}} and {{ Template:Colorado}} are the standards to go by, how do we know which is appropriate, since they even differ from one another? Ufwuct 19:36, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
So, each state's template has a little flag picture on it, usually in the top-left (as well they should). Right now, at least on {{ Washington}}, that link just takes you to the flag's picture. What would you guys think if every flag icon took you to the article on that flag (say, Flag of Washington)? I think it'd be a nice touch. Matt Yeager ♫ ( Talk?) 23:07, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Question: Why is it a good thing to have a single template transcluded across all 56 (is that how many there are?) state/state-like-object template? Matt Yeager ♫ ( Talk?) 22:12, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
The Nebraska template looks completely messed up. It looks really bad on Firefox and a little better in IE, but there's a lot of code that appears at the top, and the infobox itself is formatted really weirdly. Can someone who's more knowledgeable about this fix it? -- T. o. n. y 15:35, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually, scratch that. ALL the state templates look wacky. It must be something wrong with Template:US state navigation box. -- T. o. n. y 15:38, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to do something about the Montana template. Specifically with regard to the listing of 'Largest Cities'. I've been working on the larger cities' {{ Template:Infobox Settlement}} and have noticed that the listing in the infobox has a few problems. First, I can't discern where the cut-off was for the list originally. Using 2000 Census figures the smallest place on the list is Glendive at a population of 4,729. The next smallest place was Polson at a population of 4,041. So the cut-off, in terms of size, wasn't 4,000. Second, there is a total of eighteen places listed so it isn't a round number of, say, 20 places. Second, since the 2000 Census, demographic shifts have changed the rankings. Using 2006 U.S. Census estimates, Polson, Columbia Falls, and Hamilton are now larger than Glendive, the smallest included community according to the 2000 Census. Finally, Evergreen, Montana isn't actually an incorporated city or town but a census designated place. It does however rank up there when it comes large places in Montana with 6,215 people at the 2000 Census.
So put shortly, I'd like to clarify the list and maybe be more inclusive and do what some other states have done like Minnesota and include a list of 'Larger Cities' and one for 'Smaller Cities' with the parameters for population clearly stated. Any thoughts?
I've also posted this query to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Montana to get input from those who aren't likely to see it here, so please check there for any comments. Thanks. -- Ltvine | Talk 05:14, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Is there a reason to omit historically significant cities from state templates, other than population? I'm wondering about the wisdom of omitting Natchitoches from the Louisiana template since Natchitoches stands out as the oldest permanent settlement of the Louisiana Purchase. The rationale to go only with "large" cities and towns based solely on population seems to go against history as encyclopedic. → Lwalt ♦ talk 08:47, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
Just discovered that Vermont template is being changed beyond all recognition. I used to be able to use this navigational template before someone tried to turn it into a pseudo-portal. It is less usable now and will be ignored as all tediously lengthy lists are.
One "standard" you ought to discuss (there are college texts out there that have already recorded this determination) is how long should a list be before users stop regarding it as "friendly?" There is a specific answer to that question. I do not have the text in my hand.
Vermont's template (I don't see it above, please hide, if it is) looks like this now:
The first item says "topic". Apparently a catch-all phrase. The first items seem to be "articles" not links to other articles as the name "topic" implies. The editor also assumes that people using this template want the potpourri items first not specifics. I rather doubt that.
In the good old days, Vermont was geography first and maybe only, before everyone tried to piggy-back on this successful template.
Now it is a junkpile that gets added to everything indiscrimately like maple syrup, cows, lord knows what else.
I wish you guys would stop. People looking at a geographic template want a navigational template to other geographical items. Doubtless the same with political articles, government articles, etc. Fine if you want to have an olio line at the bottom that will give access to a different type of navbox. So there could be a real topics line, and be able to navigate out of geography to politics, for example. The boxes would all be named differently, "Vermont-geography", "Vermont-politics" etc. The politics box would have a topics line to get to geography. That sort of thing.
Festivals are normally just c-of-c WP:PR. Since they have articles, fine, but with its own template, it doesn't clutter up a geographic template or a politics or government one. Just a simple topic on each template with "Festivals" on it to get out of the current topic.
In that way, we wouldn't have monster boxes all over every single state article indiscrimanately taking up gobs of white space, sometimes more than the tiny article! Student7 ( talk) 12:36, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
I've made a suggestion that might aid census maintenance at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Use_bots_to_maintain_census_figures. Your comments are welcome. Student7 ( talk) 13:21, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
Note: If for some reason WikiProject U.S. states (or anyone else) decides to delete this page, please instead move it to User:MrD9/state templates. Thanks. // MrD9 06:31, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
An effort to standardize U.S. state templates has already begun and is currently in progress. You can assist editors who are contributing to the standardization by either joining this discussion or, if you are skilled in CSS and wiki markup, restyling the templates so that they conform with already standardized templates such as Template:Alaska and Template:Colorado.
The following templates are currently being debated, whether here, on templates' talk pages, or on users' talk pages. Please take care when making major edits to them before a consensus is reached.
— Webdinger BLAH | SZ 01:15, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I think we could start harmonize all U.S. states/state templates. I already harmonized Template:Alaska and Template:Hawaii couple days ago. The reason is that I went to this page Wikipedia:Canadian wikipedians' notice board/discussion#Harmonizing province templates 4 days ago. User:BigBang11 22 March 2006 21:23 PST (UTC)
I know I am entering this discussion late, but as requested will share my thoughts on nav boxes in general and state templates in particular. Many of us, myself included, have been designing nav boxes for every conceivable purpose, until some of our articles have become bottom heavy, to say the least, with nav boxes. Once several people made this clear to me, I began trying to figure out designs for high level nav boxes that could be used on many articles, and basically lead the reader into the information already in categories. Clearly in the U.S. the various states are an appropriate high level nav box, as is, I think, the Federal Government & Congress. My goal is to see a design that 1) can limit the number of nav boxes on a biography to two or three, 2) can have nav boxes that are small and concise, and 3) can look professional with colors/placement and not just hung together.
I think this means scaling way back the listings of cities & counties on the state boxes and balancing them with the other categories of information. So if a reader needs to see other Governors, the nav box should lead them into the appropriate category, likewise other cities, and so on. There really is no need to repeat all the counties in a state, or states in the union, every time an article has horizontal applicability. The categories already do that. The arrangement of information on the Template:Delaware is my best attempt so far to achieve this. I'm sure it can be improved upon, but I don't think the current standarization drive helsp or hurts goal 1 or 2, and I think it goes backwards on goal 3. But, I also want standarization and look forward to working with the group to get the best of all worlds accross the board. stilltim 02:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
By moving the link to the list of towns from its own line to a "topics" line ignores the fact that towns in New England are more like cities in other states - they are incorporated municipalities that differ from cities in their frame of government, not their state of existence. This type of change should be discussed. Other than that, I think standardization is a wonderful thing. Sahasrahla 23:47, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
A question that came up with Lovelac7's recent edits to Template:Florida was whether the state seal should be incorporated into its respective state template. I personally believe that the state flag is sufficient—some non-U.S. residents may want a map of the United States with the state highlighted on it, but for now, I believe the solution of keeping the state flag on the right is sufficient. Should the state seal be included in templates? — Webdinger BLAH | SZ 01:18, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Yesterday, User:The Future redesigned the Montana template with a class="NavContent", meaning that the bottom part of the template is hidable. I've tried to work this feature into the semi-standards of the other state templates. The Montana experiment looks good on my computer in the Montana article and in the Template namespace, but for some reason, it looks bad on this page. That, and the [Hide] tag is stuck to far up in the corner. I'm no CSS expert, so if anyone knows how to fix this, jump right in. If we can get it working well enough, I propose that we add it to all templates. What do you think? Lovelac7 09:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I like Lovelac7's edit to the template. I tried keeping the same format as is and just add the hide/show, but I couldn't figure it out. (But thanks Lovelac7 for showing me how :P) Schzmo, I understand that you having the template hide/show prevents it from being viewed by default. I believe the hide/show will be effective mostly for articles like George W. Bush where the entire bottom of the page is crammed with 4-5 templates. If we hide/showed the templates, it will make it realy much easier for things to be viewed. Suppose that {{ Montana}} wasn't the only template on one page? Say 2 or 3? If you just want to see one template all you have to do is click the "show" feature and you see that one template, which takes away time from scrolling through the templates. It doesn't take away the consiseness of the template anyways.. Theres really no reason why we should be as lazy as to point and click to view.. — The Future 19:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Recently Lovelac7 has been making edits to templates changing a standard I was following by modifying the font size of headings from 16px to 12px. I believe 16px is a better font size for readability and discernability. We need to establish the heading font size quickly. — Webdinger BLAH | SZ 21:42, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
To figure out what the consensus is, I'd like to summarize some of the debates from above. Like other "votes" on the Wikipedia, the argument is more important than the vote. Let's begin. Note: This straw poll is not official for all state templates. Those being debated do not need to conform to the results.
I've centered this text. Is this easy to read? No.
These lists should be aligned to the left. What happens with centering is that there is usually a word left "hanging" at the end of the article. The other thing that takes me back to my Uni days where one of my graphic design professor used to put-down his students for poor design is that no-one on Wikipedia seems to know how to valign=top. The default horizontal alignment to the center looks so unprofessional. Valign top is also much easier to follow. -- Kunzite 05:35, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
State of
Michigan Lansing ( Capital) |
See, in this form, it looks nice and simple. Why must it be standardized? I'm sorry, I just don't get it (pardon my curtness, I realize your goals are probably good, I just don't fully understand)... Matt Yeager ♫ ( Talk?) 04:47, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
This discussion has been lying dormant for over a week now. Let's come up with the results of our "straw poll" and what we will place into the new standardized state templates (except those being debated, of course). Standardization according to this consensus can commence immediately.
Areas apparently with no consensus:
— Webdinger BLAH | SZ 03:27, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Template:New Hampshire and several others include large lists of municipalities. I was wondering if there is a consensus for inclusion of Cities. It would seem to me that having a list of the top 20 or so cities would be the most appropriate balance between template size and template inclusiveness. Is there a guideline for population? Like only including MSA's or cities over 100k, 75k or 50k population or top 10 or 20 sized cites? -- Dual Freq 12:21, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I've seen debate here regarding the specifics and minutiae of which spacing to use, how many links (e.g. cities) to include in a template, but I don't see any discussion of the purpose of all this effort. I'm not sure if the benefits of standardizing the templates outweigh the disadvantages of doing so. If we're talking about style, that is, simple colors, fonts, spacing, centering, location of state emblem and state flag, then I can understand the motivation for standardization.
However, requiring each state to the same content seems unnecessary and overbearing. There is huge variation between the states. Some states like California and Texas have many MSAs (where M stands for Metropolitan in this case, not Micropolitan), while others have only a few. Some states have many counties, like Texas (254), Georgia (159), or Kentucky (120), while others have very few, like Delaware (3) or Rhode Island (5). Some states have many cities above a certain minimum population. I'm sure CA, TX, FL, IL, and NY would have many while VT, ND, and WY would have very few. If a constant cutoff population is not intended to be used for every state, then perhaps (for instance) the 20 most populuous cities would be listed for each state. In that case, would Newcastle, Wyoming (pop. 3,221) really be as important Irvine, California (pop. 186,852) or Waco, Texas (pop. 120,465), even though each is the 20th most-populous city in its respective state?
Different things matter to different states. Forcing the same information to appear in each template for every state of the Union (and territories) does not seem to have a net benefit, certainly not for the reader.
Also, if {{ Template:Alaska}} and {{ Template:Colorado}} are the standards to go by, how do we know which is appropriate, since they even differ from one another? Ufwuct 19:36, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
So, each state's template has a little flag picture on it, usually in the top-left (as well they should). Right now, at least on {{ Washington}}, that link just takes you to the flag's picture. What would you guys think if every flag icon took you to the article on that flag (say, Flag of Washington)? I think it'd be a nice touch. Matt Yeager ♫ ( Talk?) 23:07, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Question: Why is it a good thing to have a single template transcluded across all 56 (is that how many there are?) state/state-like-object template? Matt Yeager ♫ ( Talk?) 22:12, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
The Nebraska template looks completely messed up. It looks really bad on Firefox and a little better in IE, but there's a lot of code that appears at the top, and the infobox itself is formatted really weirdly. Can someone who's more knowledgeable about this fix it? -- T. o. n. y 15:35, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually, scratch that. ALL the state templates look wacky. It must be something wrong with Template:US state navigation box. -- T. o. n. y 15:38, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to do something about the Montana template. Specifically with regard to the listing of 'Largest Cities'. I've been working on the larger cities' {{ Template:Infobox Settlement}} and have noticed that the listing in the infobox has a few problems. First, I can't discern where the cut-off was for the list originally. Using 2000 Census figures the smallest place on the list is Glendive at a population of 4,729. The next smallest place was Polson at a population of 4,041. So the cut-off, in terms of size, wasn't 4,000. Second, there is a total of eighteen places listed so it isn't a round number of, say, 20 places. Second, since the 2000 Census, demographic shifts have changed the rankings. Using 2006 U.S. Census estimates, Polson, Columbia Falls, and Hamilton are now larger than Glendive, the smallest included community according to the 2000 Census. Finally, Evergreen, Montana isn't actually an incorporated city or town but a census designated place. It does however rank up there when it comes large places in Montana with 6,215 people at the 2000 Census.
So put shortly, I'd like to clarify the list and maybe be more inclusive and do what some other states have done like Minnesota and include a list of 'Larger Cities' and one for 'Smaller Cities' with the parameters for population clearly stated. Any thoughts?
I've also posted this query to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Montana to get input from those who aren't likely to see it here, so please check there for any comments. Thanks. -- Ltvine | Talk 05:14, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Is there a reason to omit historically significant cities from state templates, other than population? I'm wondering about the wisdom of omitting Natchitoches from the Louisiana template since Natchitoches stands out as the oldest permanent settlement of the Louisiana Purchase. The rationale to go only with "large" cities and towns based solely on population seems to go against history as encyclopedic. → Lwalt ♦ talk 08:47, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
Just discovered that Vermont template is being changed beyond all recognition. I used to be able to use this navigational template before someone tried to turn it into a pseudo-portal. It is less usable now and will be ignored as all tediously lengthy lists are.
One "standard" you ought to discuss (there are college texts out there that have already recorded this determination) is how long should a list be before users stop regarding it as "friendly?" There is a specific answer to that question. I do not have the text in my hand.
Vermont's template (I don't see it above, please hide, if it is) looks like this now:
The first item says "topic". Apparently a catch-all phrase. The first items seem to be "articles" not links to other articles as the name "topic" implies. The editor also assumes that people using this template want the potpourri items first not specifics. I rather doubt that.
In the good old days, Vermont was geography first and maybe only, before everyone tried to piggy-back on this successful template.
Now it is a junkpile that gets added to everything indiscrimately like maple syrup, cows, lord knows what else.
I wish you guys would stop. People looking at a geographic template want a navigational template to other geographical items. Doubtless the same with political articles, government articles, etc. Fine if you want to have an olio line at the bottom that will give access to a different type of navbox. So there could be a real topics line, and be able to navigate out of geography to politics, for example. The boxes would all be named differently, "Vermont-geography", "Vermont-politics" etc. The politics box would have a topics line to get to geography. That sort of thing.
Festivals are normally just c-of-c WP:PR. Since they have articles, fine, but with its own template, it doesn't clutter up a geographic template or a politics or government one. Just a simple topic on each template with "Festivals" on it to get out of the current topic.
In that way, we wouldn't have monster boxes all over every single state article indiscrimanately taking up gobs of white space, sometimes more than the tiny article! Student7 ( talk) 12:36, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
I've made a suggestion that might aid census maintenance at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Use_bots_to_maintain_census_figures. Your comments are welcome. Student7 ( talk) 13:21, 1 March 2011 (UTC)