Archives for WT:TOL | ||
---|---|---|
1 | 2002-07 – 2003-12 | Article names |
2 | 2003-11 – 2004-02 | Taxoboxes |
3 | 2004-02 | Taxoboxes |
4 | 2004-02 – 2004-08 | Bold taxa; taxonomy |
5 | 2004-03 – 2004-04 | Taxonomy; photos; range maps |
6 | 2005-04 – 2004-06 | Capitalization; authorities; mammals |
7 | 2004-06 – 2004-08 | Creationism; parens; common names |
8 | 2004-05 – 2004-08 | Templates; †extinct; common names |
9 | 2004-05 – 2004-08 | Categories; taxoboxes |
10 | 2004-08 – 2004-12 | Categories; authorities; domains; Wikispecies; ranks; G. species; capitalization; Common Names |
11 | 2004-11 – 2005-05 | Capitalization; common names; categories; L.; authorities; algae; cultivars |
12 | 2005-03 – 2005-05 | Ranks; common names |
13 | 2005-05 – 2005-06 | Hybrids; taxobox format; cultivars |
14 | 2005-06 – 2005-07 | Categories; food plants; identification; Capitalization |
15 | 2005-07 – 2005-09 | Synonyms; types; authorities; status; identification |
16 | 2005-09 – 2005-12 | Paleontological ranges; Rosopsida; Taxobox redesign; identification |
17 | 2005-12 – 2006-04 | Taxobox redesign; identification; APG; common names; capitalization |
18 | 2006-04 – 2006-10 | Categorization; include in references; snakes; range maps; seasonality graph; common names; bioregions; brya; |
19 | 2006-10 – 2007-03 | various |
20 | 2007-03 – 2007-06 | various |
21 | 2007-06 (Next 64 Kb) | various |
22 | (Next 64 Kb) | various |
23 | (Next 64 Kb) | various |
24 | (Next 64 Kb) | various |
Range maps were accepted as an optional part of the taxobox, but so far we haven't considered how they should fit into the new template system. Pages like blue whale currently include an image thumbnail within the binomial name section. I think it would be better to use a second {{Taxobox_image ...}} tag for them, and have tentatively suggested it on Wikipedia:WikiProject Tree of Life/Taxobox Usage. However, this has the drawback that it's very awkward for thumbnails.
Where was it suggested? I don't remember it from the template discussions, and the new taxoboxes look different from the old ones, which had the binomial name and range maps were in separate cells. I like that better, since one isn't part of the other. What do you think of maybe adding a range header to the taxobox?
By the way, I also think it would be a good idea to link to that page from each of the template pages, so people know where to find information on how to use them. Should I go ahead? Also, why are we using <br\> when <br> works fine? Josh 13:50, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
We really should decide what to do about viruses - whether to include them in our phylogenetic system, or not. Also, I'd appreciate comments on my proposed rewrite of our plant article, which I think focuses way to much on boundary cases and not enough on ordinary plants. And, should anyone happen to be interested in protists, it would be neat if anyone had any insight on how to treat the heterokont/stramenopile/chromist group.
Please comment on Talk:Virus, perhaps Talk:Plant, and if you're feeling generous Talk:water mould. Thanks, Josh 15:33, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Whoa! What's with this ( Category:Animalia)? I thought we were:
- UtherSRG 21:04, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I've added Category:Protista and Category:Ciliates. Should we be keeping track of these someplace, in case we decide to adjust them all later? By the way, in addition to taxa and other groups, there are pages that are closely related to specific taxa, and there are images. We should consider including them in our general categories, or creating special categories for them.
So, I've added an experimental Category:Protist images. I think it will be useful, because not many protist have images associated with them yet; the same sort of approach could be useful for other small groups, helping people identify things they find. On the other hand, the current set-up isn't particularly designed for such categories, given that it places everything under I.
Btw, it may be noted the current templates break what links here for both articles and images. Presumably this has been reported? Josh 21:03, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Thanks! That's a much better system.
What about making KPCOFGS categories with stuff in parentheses like this: Category:Mammalia (class), Category:Primates (order), Category:Loridae (family) and so on? Fuelbottle | Talk 18:16, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I didn't know UtherSRG had changed his mind. In that case, do we have a rough agreement on how categories should be used? I agree with Fuel that the current system is messy, but I don't think the ranks help much. It looks like the general opinion is to use common names where possible. The idea seems to be to have one category at each major level, and include only the primary subdivisions. I don't think this works well with poorly developed groups - for instance Category:Ciliates is much better without a hierarchy. But if we only create subcategories when the originals are too large, I think we have a good system, and should maybe add guidelines to this page. Josh 19:46, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Should the stuff in Category:Primates (taxa) be moved to Category:Primates? Fuelbottle | Talk 21:18, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
What's gone wrong with the taxobox at
Cashew? - it should be:
Anacardium occidentale
L.
but is actually showing:
Anacardium occidentale
L.. {20 August 2004 (UTC)}
Can anyone solve it? -
MPF 20:24, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I made Template:Taxobox_section_binomial_botany which is like Template:Taxobox_section_binomial but doesn't have a date. If you don't like it, please change it, but don't put it in too many articles right away. It is currently in use at Garden Chervil. -- Yath 06:40, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
According to IPNI the abbreviation Gray belongs to Samuel Frederick Gray, while quite a lot of the animals described by his son John Edward Gray also have the short reference Gray. If those are correct than we have to make Gray (taxonomist) to be a disambiguation (there was only one taxobox pointing there anyway, which I fixed now), or have to change to use something like Gray (botanist) and Gray (zoologist) instead. BTW: is there anything comparable to IPNI for zoologists? andy 11:55, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The image at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Common_clownfish.jpg is used in the article Clownfish, yet the way it does so (using a taxobox expansion) somehow precludes discovering that fact via the usual automated "What links here" mechanisms. Apparently it is related to a known bug, see Bug #48. Is there a workaround? - [[User:Bevo| Bevo]] 08:27, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Another approach might be to put the images in categories, so that at least the category pages link to them. I think this could be useful even after the bug is fixed, since it lets people know what images are available for a group. Meanwhile, it looks like Image:Common clownfish.jpg found the best protection - getting featured. Josh
Apparently the bug is fixed now - pages which use an image via templates now show up on the image page. However it needs on edit to the article to get an update of the link table. Thus the workarounds to mark images an non-orphan are no longer needed. And together with it some other template bugs were finally fixed. Now we just need optional parameter in templates and ToL will be fully happy with templates. andy 15:08, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The number of layers of taxa that are included in a taxobox varies a lot - Ascaphidae is an example of a completist, modern approach. Other places we are traditional KPCOFGS only. Is it worth standardizing these? Pcb21| Pete 10:15, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Absolutely. Ascaphidae includes way too many ranks, and a number of them are non-standard. While it's nice to have a modern system, there's no need to promulgate it on every family and species page, which provides very little information about them and makes it harder to change when the system does (which they still do routinely). In general, KPCOFGS should be the rule, but some intermediate ranks may important depending on the group in question. This is already detailed on the taxobox use page. Josh 16:08, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I disagree entirely. Gnathostomata is a standard clade, but that is not the same as it being standard within a ranked classification system. On the contrary, they are not always given a rank, and when they are it may vary. More importantly, corresponding groups for the other vertebrates are not well-defined, since many consider Agnatha obsolete. That gives an odd situation where some classes have a supergroup and others don't, and I don't think that's inherently more obvious. The idea that the division between fully accepted and controversial taxa is clear is simply false.
Anyone who understands how classification works should not have a problem with omitted levels, and other people won't get any benefit from including obscure microphyla everywhere. In fact, I don't think restricting intermediate ranks to those immediately relevant will confuse anyone. Either way, though, constantly presenting an enormous array of unfamiliar taxa would be far worse, especially since intermediate ranks are often inconsistent between sources, even when the groups are generally accepted. The current system is a simplified presentation, but I see no reason to believe it is over-simplifies things, except in that it presents a single taxonomy when there are usually several alternatives to choose from.
What exactly do you propose to do about the lampreys? Use Agnatha, although they are generally abandoned by modern systems, or something like superclass Hyperoartia, that won't correspond to almost any of the literature? The names won't convey any information about systematics to people who aren't familiar with them, and those who are will already know the relative positions of lampreys and amphibians. Detailed discussion of relationships should be available in the articles. So why are these options better than simply treating the lampreys without a supergroup, which far better reflects their current treatment?
I'm all for keeping our policy flexible, but I don't see why we should re-evaluate our position here. It's not like this is a new idea, or these points haven't already been discussed several times. Of course the current system isn't perfect, but if we have to re-open old arguments every time someone isn't entirely satisfied with the agreement, we may as well not have a standard. Josh 06:27, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The current page titmouse is a family page coveing the whole of the Paridae (tits & chickadees in Parus, titmice recently split off as Baeolophus, and a few monotypic genera) - I'd like to suggest (1) re-naming the current titmouse as Paridae (currently a redirect to titmouse), (2) re-model titmouse as a genus page for Baeolophus, (3) make a new page for Parus, and (4) the remaining genera names as redirects to their current sole species. Only problem is that the AOU split Parus up into several smaller genera (not followed by any other authorities, as far as I know). Anyone any thoughts? - MPF 18:37, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Is there a mammal expert around here who is able to answer a question about rats and especially rat kings? The question is, if rat kings do really exist or if they are just a product of forgery. See Talk:Rat king. Thanks for any answers. -- Baldhur 21:12, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
A number of biologists have objected to the three-domain system, including several big names like Mayr, Margulis, and Cavalier-Smith. Although this is treated lightly on relevant pages, some of their arguments are substantive. In particular, it is argued that the morphological differences alone don't justify the separation, and that the eubacteria are paraphyletic to the archaebacteria (and eukaryotes), removing the phylogenetic reason for separating them.
I would like to add some notes about this controversy, but I can't seem to find the other side. The only papers I could find arguing that the eubacteria were monophyletic were the originals by Woese, which are based upon his progenote hypothesis and rRNA studies. The former is not widely accepted, and the latter are no longer considered a reliable guide to phylogeny, at least among the eukaryotes where they contradict protein gene studies.
Is the three-domain system still the de facto standard in microbiology, and can someone refer me to a source justifying why? Otherwise, if it is obsolete, should we tone down our support for it and switch to a more neutral organization scheme? Josh 17:07, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This particular problem isn't whether we want to show domains (we don't most of the time), but whether they're an appropriate system to use. That's something that has to be decided, regardless. Even invisible domains impact the division of the prokaryotes - for instance, they would prevent us from using Monera.
What I would like to do is generally reverse the decisions we made on Talk:Bacterium. I think treating the prokaryotes in two kingdoms is the best option, but the names Eubacteria and Archaebacteria should probably be used, since they are unambiguous. The two empire system isn't actually obsolete, since prokaryotes are assumed to be paraphyletic, and I would prefer it as a more neutral alternative to the three-domain system. However, I think it would likely face constant reversion attempts. It is nice to have a supergroup, domain or empire, for all eukaryotes, but not necessary. Josh 03:05, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
As for the wikispecies idea, I think my initial reaction was too harsh, but I do have several concerns. Most notably I think it would end up requiring a full classification for all species, and so preventing us from being flexible in cases where the classification varies or is uncertain. For protists, which are my main interest, phylogenetic taxa are only recently emerging, and I don't think they could be used if the groups had been locked into the old morphological system, instead of being left as unclassified.
Also, I think it's very useful to have language-specific descriptions in the taxoboxes, as for instance on plant. Taking these away would hurt all the wikipediae, making them less accessible, in order to coordinate them. And the most important part, the information in the articles, still wouldn't be coordinated.
The things is, such matters are rarely considered by people interested only in the taxonomy and not the organisms in question. As such, I worry that a wikispecies project would end up dictating systems to the rest of us, without much regard for special considerations or the needs of the articles. It may be worth trying, but it would be nice if you could allay some of these concerns, and discuss some of the details of the proposal. Josh 03:05, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
That covers the languages, but nothing else. The ability to coordinate taxoboxes quickly is only a small part of coordinating articles. Compare es:Protista, where someone had little difficulty copying our taxobox, and as a result we've gone from two systems in two wikipediae to two systems in one. That's not helpful.
In any case, this coordination is only one issue. I think it's more important to be able to maintain flexibilty and meet the needs of the specific groups in question, and I'm asking if we can figure out a way for wikispecies to addres these matters. It doesn't matter what benefit it has in coordination if it breaks what we're coordinating.
Remember taxonomy is a fluid and changing discipline, and there isn't a single system out there for all to follow. How do we decide what systems to use, and most importantly, how do we coordinate a change? This isn't such an issue when the taxoboxes are part of the articles, since they can be updated together, but your proposed separation leaves the prospect of major inconsistencies. This needs to be considered before we decide this is a good idea. Josh 18:47, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
A truly studly wikispecies would allow for multiple taxonomic entries, as in "Curculionidae is a family in Joe Blow's system", "Begoniaceae was in Violales in Cronquist", or whatever. A much-shifted taxon would have quite a few relationship/system entries. An advantage is that appropriate DB queries could reconstruct old systems in their entirety, and in theory, not necessarily useful, one could construct accurate historical taxoboxes as well as current ones. For the table of systems, one would then want a way to choose one as "current", and that would produce the usual taxoboxes for WP articles. Not an easy problem of database design, needs someone who really understands taxonomy deeply, but doable I think. Stan 19:32, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I feel like we probably want to find some way to point editors to Taxobox_Usage right from the main article or edit page. We can certainly make a template linking to the Taxobox_Usage page and add it to article talk pages, but I feel like for important help like this it's good to have something right on the article page too, in case notes on talk are overlooked. I have some preliminary suggestions that I've prototyped here:
I don't consider either solution optimal, but both are better than doing nothing, and maybe someone else will be inspired to a better idea. -- Chinasaur 17:31, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Maybe we could create a new page, explaining the taxoboxes to readers - referring them to how classification works, explaining the color code and bolding, and so forth. Something like that would be entirely appropriate to link to from the main page, and could send new editors to our taxobox use page for further information. Meanwhile, most of the templates have a link there on their talk page, on the hopes people might look there for explanations. Josh 19:14, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Yeah, I remember you mentioning that you were adding that to the talk pages. I also like your suggestion; it's a good compromise to avoid exposing "readers" to too much nitty gritty but still give editors an avenue to find the template help straight from the article page. Ideally the link from the article page would use language that tempts both readers and editors to find out more... How about the HTML comment approach? I like this, but like UtherSRG, I'm a little more HTML friendly than some editors. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a way to use templates to make an HTML comment easily changeable and still appear on the edit page, but I thought it we standardized the comment it would at least be easily bot parseable if it ever came to that. (Despite my better judgement that encouraging bot parsing situations should be avoided, there doesn't seem to be a better way to implement a notice in the edit box.) -- Chinasaur 19:56, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Iv'e added several new pics to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plants_and_animals_of_Belize and as always I'm takeing request. Belizian 17:58, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This is what happens when people with no science background start writing about themselves. A fairly NPOV human article got hugely POVved. this is just a heads up, folks. Dunc_Harris| ☺ 21:00, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Do we have a standard for how groups are ranked? There are at least thirteen well-known and reasonably stable groups between phylum Chordata and class Aves (Chordata — Craniata — Vertebrata — Gnathostomata — Teleostomi — Sarcopterygii — Tetrapoda — Amniota — Reptilia — Diapsida — Archosauria — Dinosauria — Saurischia — Theropoda — Aves). How are these to be ranked (if at all)? And what should taxoboxes look like in these articles? Gdr 18:37, 2004 Sep 1 (UTC)
It should be noted that these groups aren't entirely stable. Sarcopterygii may exclude the amniotes, and everything from Reptilia to Theropoda may exclude the birds. Not everyone has agreed that paraphyletic groups are invalid; they are logical necessities for extinct groups. Those that avoid them have difficulty ranking vertebrates, since you have large groups like Aves and Amniota with tiny sisters like deinonychosaurs and lungfish.
I don't think we should include any of these groups in the taxoboxes until a more generally acceptable system that uses them emerges. We could add a more phylocode-like table, but outside of the vertebrates and perhaps the higher plant groups, the ranked systems seem to work fine. Josh 21:10, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
At the moment there isn't a system. People have been using the phylogenetic groups as formal taxa randomly, making up ranks as they go without worrying about inconsistencies. This is largely because there isn't an established system that uses them.
I tried discussing what classes we should use on Talk:Chordate, but it didn't attract much comment. However, most low-level groups are happy using the classes Actinopterygii, Amphibia, Mammalia, Aves, and Reptilia, with the last understood to be paraphyletic. We should probably stick with this and standardize other pages to it, although it means we can't use Reptilia through Theropoda as clades in the taxobox.
If you have ideas on better systems, I'd be happy to hear them. However, note that clade-only schemes simply don't work with extinct groups. For instance, whatever we rank Aves, we'd need to rank crocodylians, pterosaurs, ornithischians, coelophysids, ceratosaurs, spinosaurs, allosaurs, tyrannosaurs, ornithomimids, therizinosaurs, and deinonychosaurs at least as high. We could try a rankless system, but I don't think it would do too well for such common animals. Josh 16:38, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Azhyd added an orphan page on an interesting proteobacterium, Pelagibacter ubique. However, strange to say, it looks like the formal name of the organism is actually Candidatus Pelagibacter ubique. There is some information on this type of name at LSBN. How do we want to handle it? A new binomial name template can be made easily, but how should it show up in the placement (or subdivision boxes), and should the article be moved or kept where it is? Josh 22:41, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
In this case, it looks like Candidatus is used because the species hasn't met the qualifications for formal publication. If it is just a status, I guess the page doesn't need much changing, but the sudden inversion of whether the name is italicized when it is included makes me wonder if it can be validly excluded. At any rate, it should definitely be included along with the attribution, and I will make {{ Taxobox_section_binomial_candidatus}} accordingly.
As for monotypic genera, are you proposing the page be moved to Pelagibacter, or simply that the title be changed? I'd be happy to do the former, but it would probably be better if the redirect was deleted first. We should probably draw up some standards for such pages. Josh 01:29, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Hi all - Several of us have been working on creating a Wikimedia Newsletter on Meta. Since ToL is by far the largest WikiProect in Wikipedia we would like one (or more) of you to write a quick summary of where the project stands for the newsletter. We are especially interested in how the different language versions interact and the possible use of the Wikimedia Commons to store taxoboxes. Anything you can add will be appreciated. :) -- mav 04:51, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
To whom it may concern: Please feel free to visit Wikipedia:WikiProject Dog breeds/Categories because I think that structuring various animal articles and Dog articles could take a similar tack--would be nice to use same subcategories for consistency. I've left messages all over various Cat and Horse articles and topics to this same effect.
One thing I see (that someone else also just noticed) is a slight inconsistency of the listing for wild vs domesticated dogs & cats. Non-domesticated canines are listed in Category:Canines, while domesticated dogs & articles about them are in Category:Dogs, a subcategory thereof. Category:Cats, however, lists all--I'd think for consistency it should be Category:Felines for wild cats and Category:Cats similarly structured to Dogs; looks like Category:Equids follows this, but then there is no Category:Horse. Elf | Talk 04:28, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Shark articles have picked up a Template:Sharks, which is incomplete, redundant with the category, and will be gigantic if all 368 shark species get included in it. Between taxoboxes and categories, I'm inclined to say that's plenty of navigational machinery, and the template on top of that is just extra noise. Any other opinions? Stan 15:31, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Could someone identify the plants pictured here and add them to the appropriate article? →Raul654 03:22, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)
With some non-classification entries, Bagworm moth has a few lines in there that don't fit with the current taxobox. I'm sure there's a separate debate as to whether those things actually belong in the taxobox, but for now, I think we need a Template:Taxobox_foo_entry for them (Taxobox_unranked_entry is not it). Unfortunately, I cannot think of a good name for it. Help would be appreciated :-) -- Yath 07:14, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The current page is prosimian, but I think it would be best to split it into two articles. "Prosimian" is a polyphylogenic grouping that includes all strepsirrhines, plus the tarsiers and the extinct omomyids. Please follow up on talk:prosimian - UtherSRG 15:29, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
We are planning to use taxoboxes in Finnish Wikipedia. However, there is a major obstacle: I have found nowhere a guide what templates are needed for a taxobox. Of course I can find some templates by looking at the page markup, but where is a thorough list? - Hapsiainen 23:29, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)
So apparently, a separate wikispecies project has been created to handle taxonomy. So far it seems copying our material has been a higher priority than notifying us here, but since they exist and will probably want to work with us in the future, I'd encourage participants here to help them draw up standards that will maximize their utility and minimize the overlap in content. The main URL is species.wikipedia.org, and most of the discussion seems to be on their village pump. Josh 08:56, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Someone added two lines (Eutheria and Vertebrata) to the taxobox on Wolf, and I removed them. then they were added back, and I removed them again. Please go to talk:wolf and vote on whether the lines should be added or not. - UtherSRG 16:43, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I’m attending the Wikimeeting in Rotterdam, Netherlands on November 27. I’m going to propose there an idea, that I ‘ve had for some time and which may also concern ToL. I have encountered many websites, which made requests for appropriate images or photos. Usually with a good measure of success (cfr. The Seaslugforum of Dr. Bill Rudman), with unique photos of seaslugs sent by enthusiasts and divers from all over the world. The same goes for many other websites about fauna and flora. This gave me the idea : why can’t we do the same ? Many of our articles lack the right or fitting image. There must be enough viewers in the world, willing to put THEIR photo in that article, even under the stringent copyright restrictions of Wikipedia. Therefore, if we could put an OPTIONAL textbox at the bottom of the article, it could be done this way :
This way, we can avoid having to beg all over the world for photos. You can call yourself lucky if you even get a reply. These are then mostly negative, because of the stringent restrictions on copyright. A few times, you strike lucky. But in the end, it is a lot of work that could be avoided by this textbox. I realize that this goes beyond ToL and this may need new programming. But I think that this idea has its merits, even if it is a first draft. Ãny reactions ? JoJan 18:30, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The PloS is a new open-access organization whose mission is to make the world’s scientific and medical literature a public resource. They operate under the Creative Commons agreement {{cc-by-2.0}}, in other words within the copyright restraints of Wikipedia. I bring this to your attention, since PLoS Biology will contain articles which might be of interest to us. JoJan 12:33, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I have a problem with the taxobox entry line called "Species" and I'm somewhat surprised no one else has caught it (maybe I'm just unaware of past discussion?). It is incorrect (see definition under Species) to call the second term in a binomial name a "species". The species is the binomial name. A correct listing would be (for example) Genus: Colocasia, Species: C. esculenta. It might be cleaner to simply eliminate the "Species" line and, following "Genus," have the next "box" called "Binomial" give the actual species name (w/o shortened genus and with authorship). The situation as it is now suffers from being both redundant and misleading. - Marshman 21:21, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Although I'm personally opposed to deciding anything by vote as it is foolish to think that "facts" can be decided in such a way, there are obviously a few here who believe there is a "taxobox standard" that all should adhere to. Since this issue of erroneously declaring a species name "species" is championed by only one person with apparently no biological training, the rest of this "standards" group needs to step up and be counted. Essentially, the taxobox has been taken over as one person's personal venue (essentially it has become a POV item), a situation that will continue to drive off competent contributers like Clockwork Troll in the Wolf controversy (below). - Marshman 17:20, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Actually I was unaware of any debate over the "species line", and so never weighed in, but it has also been troubling me for some time, because it seems redundant; there is always a full binomal name section immediately below. Unlike every other line in the placement section, the epithet line will almost never have a link - in the rare case that a subspecies deserves its own article, the links will likely be in the text, not in taxobox. As far as I can tell, the species line is mostly there because it was in the original design, and hasn't been seriously re-evaluated since. So I'd like to concur with Marshman's proposal to just whack the line altogether; no capability or information will be lost, and taxoboxes will be smaller. Most importantly of all :-), it makes the nomenclature discussion moot! Stan 18:04, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The thing to remember is that taxoboxes apply to all ranks, not just species. The reason the species name or epithet is in the placement box is because it parallels other groups like Rosaceae, Carnivora, and Heterotrichea. The decision as to whether to restrict the placement to supergroups should be made with all of them in mind, not just this one case. It would require creating a new box comparable to the binomial name box, which would be useful for indicating authorship, but it makes it very difficult to handle groups with multiple ranks such as Symbion.
Whether or not the species epithet can be given by itself is a different issue. Originally I had thought a few other sites used them, but checking now I can only find uBio, and that's only because their database doesn't allow spaces. I think Marshman can be taken as authoritative here. Since the matter has been brought up three times now, it's safe to say the present system should be changed.
I'd propose that we start by changing the taxobox placement to read G. species, or at least change the standard to suggest that. This is something that would have to be done anyways, since species will be listed as supergroups on subspecies pages. Then, as a separate issue, we should consider changing the placement or binomial name boxes to make things less redundant. Personally, I don't really like Marshman's suggestion, and would much rather change the placement box to include the authorship, as shown at right. Josh 23:20, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Please, I've not said that species is the "Species name". What I've said I'll say again: "Species name" is Genus species or G. species). "Species epithet" is species. The strong caveat is that the species epithet should be used alone sparingly and only when the context is perfectly clear. To prove it, I open randomly to page 160 in Groves' Primage Taxonomy. (If anyone can refute Groves' standing as a learned biologist and taxonomist, I give up). On 160, he uses the epithets boliviensis and sciureus on their own (thrice for boliviensis) while using full or abbreviated names twenty times, all from the same genus. Species epithets can and are used alone as I have been describing over and over by learned and scholarly biologists and taxonomists. If it was absolutely forbidden to use the epithet alone as Marshman suggests, I'm absolutely certain that Groves would not have done so. If need be, I'll type in the relevant passages from Groves to show just exactly how he used the naked epithets. - UtherSRG 05:41, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
My question about subspecies was about how should the taxobox be utilized. Should there be a species line following the genus line? Should there be a subspecies line following the species line? The standardized format is that the lowest line in the placement section of the taxobox be the most specific part of the taxonomy. To remove the species line (or the subspecies line) from the species (or subspecies) taxobox breaks this format and makes the placement portion of the taxobox identical for a genus, a species, and a subspecies taxobox. This does not work for me. Marshman's suggestion of using the abbreviated species name also doesn't work, for then a subspecies taxobox will contain Genus, G. species, and G. s. subspecies. It gets even worse when there is a subgenus as well, for we get a bit of skippage: Genus, (Subgenus), G. (S.) species, G. (S.) s. subspecies. - UtherSRG 05:41, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
That's the extreme case, though. Putting G. species in the taxobox is somewhat redundant, but not if the alternative involves repeating the binomial name in full. It also makes it plain what the name of the species is, whereas the current system switches from taxon names to epithets without explanation. And it is closer to other taxonomy sites, like NCBI, tree of life, and Systema Naturae, which universally list the genus name or abbreviation.
I've never seen a text use epithets by themselves, and this is the third argument that it can't be done, this time by a practicing biologist. As such it doesn't matter whether it's officially permitted or not, it's evidently very rare. The alternative form might be a little repetitive but I think it adds clarity, and it is definitely preferrable to using something so obscure, which will only lead to further debate. I know you don't like using G. species as much, but how much support for it does there need to be for us to change? Josh 07:27, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
P.S. uBio does give epithets by themselves, but it capitalizes them, so I'm going to assume that's a database thing.
The people who write taxoboxes could handle it but it would make their meaning less obvious. If we remove the species, we should also move genera, families, and the like to boxes. The only problem is groups that have multiple ranks, as above. Do you actually have any objection to the alternate form I proposed? I don't think the G. makes things excessively wide. Josh 08:44, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The binomial name box says what group is here, and the subdivision box says how it's broken up, so they aren't interchangeable. If we pull the group from the placement box, in most cases we would need to have both. I'd support that, if we can come up with a good way to handle pages like Chloroflexi, but I don't see one. Note subdivision lists already give species as G. epithet, and the full scientific name can always be a redirect. Josh 21:33, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This discussion is a waste of time and energy. I am a taxonomist, and while I would NEVER use a species epithet by itself in the text of a taxonomic article (so the Groves example does not apply), I see no problem with having such an epithet just below the generic name in a table. There is no ambiguity whatsoever in this case. Why not leave well enough alone. If we were starting something new, perhaps there could be a reasonable argument, but already more changes are being made tweaking unimportant things than in real substantive editing. WormRunner | Talk 06:46, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I would prefer using abbreviations at all levels above the lowest level in the table. So an entry for Gongora armeniaca subsp. cornuta would look like
-- Nighthawk4211 19:44, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
{{Taxobox_begin | color = lightgreen | name = Box 4}} <!-- {{Taxobox_image | image = | caption = }} --> {{Taxobox_begin_placement | color = lightgreen}} {{Taxobox_regnum_entry | taxon = [[Plant]]ae}} {{Taxobox_divisio_entry | taxon = [[flowering plant|Magnoliophyta]]}} {{Taxobox_classis_entry | taxon = [[Liliopsida]]}} {{Taxobox_ordo_entry | taxon = [[Arales]]}} {{Taxobox_familia_entry | taxon = [[Araceae]]}} {{Taxobox_genus_entry | taxon = ''[[Colocasia]]''}} {{Taxobox_end_placement}} {{Taxobox_section_binomial_botany | color = lightgreen | binomial_name = Colocasia esculenta | author = ([[Carolus Linnaeus|L.]]) [[Heinrich Wilhelm Schott|Schott]]}} {{Taxobox_end}} {{Taxobox_begin | color = lightgreen | name = Box 3}} <!-- {{Taxobox_image | image = | caption = }} --> {{Taxobox_begin_placement | color = lightgreen}} {{Taxobox_regnum_entry | taxon = [[Plant]]ae}} {{Taxobox_divisio_entry | taxon = [[flowering plant|Magnoliophyta]]}} {{Taxobox_classis_entry | taxon = [[Liliopsida]]}} {{Taxobox_ordo_entry | taxon = [[Arales]]}} {{Taxobox_familia_entry | taxon = [[Araceae]]}} {{Taxobox_genus_entry | taxon = ''[[Colocasia]]''}} {{Taxobox_species_entry | taxon = '''''C. esculenta'''''}} {{Taxobox_end_placement}} {{Taxobox_section_binomial_botany | color = lightgreen | binomial_name = Colocasia esculenta | author = ([[Carolus Linnaeus|L.]]) [[Heinrich Wilhelm Schott|Schott]]}} {{Taxobox_end}} {{Taxobox_begin | color = lightgreen | name = Box 2}} <!-- {{Taxobox_image | image = | caption = }} --> {{Taxobox_begin_placement | color = lightgreen}} {{Taxobox_regnum_entry | taxon = [[Plant]]ae}} {{Taxobox_divisio_entry | taxon = [[flowering plant|Magnoliophyta]]}} {{Taxobox_classis_entry | taxon = [[Liliopsida]]}} {{Taxobox_ordo_entry | taxon = [[Arales]]}} {{Taxobox_familia_entry | taxon = [[Araceae]]}} {{Taxobox_genus_entry | taxon = '''''[[Colocasia]]'''''}} {{Taxobox_species_entry | taxon = '''''esculenta'''''}} {{Taxobox_end_placement}} {{Taxobox_section_binomial_botany | color = lightgreen | binomial_name = Colocasia esculenta | author = ([[Carolus Linnaeus|L.]]) [[Heinrich Wilhelm Schott|Schott]]}} {{Taxobox_end}} {{Taxobox_begin | color = lightgreen | name = Box 1}} {{Taxobox_begin_placement | color = lightgreen}} {{Taxobox_regnum_entry | taxon = [[Plant]]ae}} {{Taxobox_divisio_entry | taxon = [[flowering plant|Magnoliophyta]]}} {{Taxobox_classis_entry | taxon = [[Liliopsida]]}} {{Taxobox_ordo_entry | taxon = [[Arales]]}} {{Taxobox_familia_entry | taxon = [[Araceae]]}} {{Taxobox_genus_entry | taxon = ''[[Colocasia]]''}} <tr><td valign=top>Species:</td><td>'''''C. esculenta'''''<br><small>([[Carolus Linnaeus|L.]]) [[Heinrich Wilhelm Schott|Schott]]</small> </td></tr> {{Taxobox_end_placement}} {{Taxobox_end}}
I've moved the taxoboxes from above to here, and added two more (the current format and another possibility). I think we've all had a say and I don't expect there to be any change in positions. Which means it's getting close to time to lining up the options and coming to a concensus on which option to use. To facilitate that, voila. Let's see about doing this for a week. (Polling closes 16:00, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC) ) - UtherSRG 15:47, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The status quo is Box 2. It's my preference to keep status quo, and it's what we should do until we have concensus to change. My least favorite is Box 4. Of the others, I think I'm equally ambivalent about them, but can support using them. Box 1 would require a new template to be created (not a bad thing, just stating facts), or the existing genus entry template to be modified, and it wouldn't be difficult to do. - UtherSRG 15:57, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Note boxes 1, 3, and 4 eliminate the reasons for bolding the genus. Josh
Well the poll isn't closed, but the results have been unchanged for some days, and it is clear the status quo doesn't enjoy support. Box 1 and box 3 look like being the only contenders worth thinking about (5/1/1 and 7/1/1 respectively). Yath is your opposition to box 1 strong? Marshman box 3? Pcb21| Pete 08:52, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm updating the page to make box 3 the tentative new standard. Josh 18:47, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Should an article like this be at the title Oleaceae which is now a redirect. Some of the species seem pretty far from the common understanding of an olive. Rmhermen 14:10, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
problem. :-) But we've signed up with the Latin names. (Might not hurt to have redirs tho, "soapberry family" garners several thousand matches, 600 of them not mentioning Sapindaceae at all.) Stan 17:03, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
When I come across a taxobox created with the table code rather than the new ToL template I update it. I'm not sure if people are of the opinion 'if it ain't broke -don't fix it', or if its better to update them to make any subsequent updates simpler. A list of entries with the 'old' template can be found here .-- nixie 02:48, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
(Posted by new User:Fledgeling on my user page - can anyone help out? I'll have a look in HBW, but I suspect that's not up-to-date enough) - MPF 09:51, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
There were tought to be three species and two sub-species untill 1995, when DNA tests on the different Kiwi populations proved otherwise. Today we know that the species formerly known as Brown Kiwi is actually three distinct species – Brown Kiwi, Rowi and Tokoeka. And the Tokoeka currently has two varieties - Haast Tokoeka and Southern Tokoeka. The Rowi was identified as a seperate species in 2003, the latest to be identified as a seperate species.--- http://www.kiwirecovery.org.nz/Kiwi/AboutTheBird/TheKiwiFamily/
I have noticed this page is sorely out of date, but since i only came yesterday i do not have the expertise, 'Wikification' knowlege, or guts to take on the task of editing such a large, prominent peice. Since you listed one of your interests as birds, i was hoping you might be interested in takling this project. You dont have to, of course, but i felt this topic should be brought up
P.S. Is there a better place to put this information?
Thanks 04:11, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Back in the spring I was working on some fish articles, and someone moved them all to title capitalization (the infamous one being Neon Tetra instead of Neon tetra). AFAICT this is not mandated anywhere in the ToL pages, and it violates Wikipedia standards about using normal English sentence capitalization for article titles. I was told back then that capitalizing everything was the new standard for ToL. However, from looking around, it doesn't seem like most articles follow this (undocumented) standard. Can anyone help me out? — Tkinias 18:30, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
(Reverting to no-indent...) Naturally, I agree with User:Knowledge Seeker. I note that, unfortunately, the Oxford Style Manual (a UK style manual) gives no guidance on the specific subject of capitalizing common names. OED, of course, does not capitalize them. ICBN/ICZN I don't think concern themselves at all (and from what I've seen avoid mentioning) common names. I note that ICZN docs on their Web site downcase anglicized versions of names of higher taxa -- therefore, "the Centrarchidae" but "this fish is a centrarchid". I've proposed a standard specifically for fish at Wikipedia:WikiProject Fishes, but there's not been much response. — Tkinias 03:47, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Addendum: Survey of several on-line taxonomic sources: NCBI Entrez, University of Michigan Animal Diversity Web, Tree of Life Project, and Integrated Taxonomic Information System all uniformly use lower-case common names for taxa of all levels. So do the journals Nature, American Journal of Botany, International Journal of Plant Sciences (just some for which I had easy on-line access). I could not readily determine if Science has a policy on this since I didn't find any unambiguous use in their on-line number. I found no use of capitalized common names in any on-line taxonomic sources I checked. The only use I have seen is in things like bird-watcher' books and aquarium hobbyists' works; apparently capitalization is a standard in specialist ornithological works, but I don't have access to any of that. (Maybe some of our ornithologists could provide journal names which use this standard?) — Tkinias 04:24, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
There is something of an edit war starting with User:Mario and Dario on Anseriformes, Anatidae and the various whistling duck species' pages. I posted the following on their talk page:
Wikipedia:WikiProject Tree of Life
Unfortunately, their only response has been to revert my changes, which I thought were a fair compromise. Any views? Should the relevant pages be protected pending resolution? jimfbleak 06:51, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I haven't found any guidelines on this in the project page or in the talk archives, but if it's there just point me in the right direction, please! *grin*
There seems not to be consistency regarding the anglicization of names for higher taxa. Since I'm working on fishes (see Wikipedia:WikiProject Fishes), I'm primarily concerned with them, where the family names are normally of the form Fooidae and the order names of the form Fooiformes, where both derive from the generic name Foous (or Fooa). It is common to anglicize the family name as "fooid", and (less so) the order name as "fooiform". Should articles and categories be using Fooidae/Fooiformes or fooid/fooiform? The Latin forms violate the singular and the English-language rules for article names, but in some cases the anglicized forms just look a bit odd. The plural angicized order names in particular look strange, because they look like misspellings of the Latin forms (Fooiforms for Fooiformes). In most cases, the anglicized systematic names are the only unambiguous English names available (how else, for example, to distinguish Perca, Percinae, Percidae, and Perciformes?). I'd like to do cleanup on this as I go through the taxa, but I'm not sure which to standardize on. What does the ToL community think about this?
One way to handle it might be to use (singular) anglicizations for article names and (plural) Latin forms for categories.
(On a related subject, can one anglicize a subfamily name of form Fooinae as "fooine"—e.g., can one refer to the "percine fishes" for fishes of subfamily Percinae?) — Tkinias 03:18, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I'd like to get a feeling for peoples like or dislkie for the 'always used common names' paradigm. I don't like is for a few reasons:
I think a better system would be to have redirects to the species or disambiguation pages where a common name applies to many species. Since wikipedia isn't paper an integrated system of cross referencing shouldn't be a problem, nor should updating if name changes occurs. Let me know what you think, and I'll decide if I should take this on to the Village Pump-- nixie 04:58, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Um, let's have some of the plant and bird folks weigh in on this one. - UtherSRG 12:46, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Archives for WT:TOL | ||
---|---|---|
1 | 2002-07 – 2003-12 | Article names |
2 | 2003-11 – 2004-02 | Taxoboxes |
3 | 2004-02 | Taxoboxes |
4 | 2004-02 – 2004-08 | Bold taxa; taxonomy |
5 | 2004-03 – 2004-04 | Taxonomy; photos; range maps |
6 | 2005-04 – 2004-06 | Capitalization; authorities; mammals |
7 | 2004-06 – 2004-08 | Creationism; parens; common names |
8 | 2004-05 – 2004-08 | Templates; †extinct; common names |
9 | 2004-05 – 2004-08 | Categories; taxoboxes |
10 | 2004-08 – 2004-12 | Categories; authorities; domains; Wikispecies; ranks; G. species; capitalization; Common Names |
11 | 2004-11 – 2005-05 | Capitalization; common names; categories; L.; authorities; algae; cultivars |
12 | 2005-03 – 2005-05 | Ranks; common names |
13 | 2005-05 – 2005-06 | Hybrids; taxobox format; cultivars |
14 | 2005-06 – 2005-07 | Categories; food plants; identification; Capitalization |
15 | 2005-07 – 2005-09 | Synonyms; types; authorities; status; identification |
16 | 2005-09 – 2005-12 | Paleontological ranges; Rosopsida; Taxobox redesign; identification |
17 | 2005-12 – 2006-04 | Taxobox redesign; identification; APG; common names; capitalization |
18 | 2006-04 – 2006-10 | Categorization; include in references; snakes; range maps; seasonality graph; common names; bioregions; brya; |
19 | 2006-10 – 2007-03 | various |
20 | 2007-03 – 2007-06 | various |
21 | 2007-06 (Next 64 Kb) | various |
22 | (Next 64 Kb) | various |
23 | (Next 64 Kb) | various |
24 | (Next 64 Kb) | various |
Range maps were accepted as an optional part of the taxobox, but so far we haven't considered how they should fit into the new template system. Pages like blue whale currently include an image thumbnail within the binomial name section. I think it would be better to use a second {{Taxobox_image ...}} tag for them, and have tentatively suggested it on Wikipedia:WikiProject Tree of Life/Taxobox Usage. However, this has the drawback that it's very awkward for thumbnails.
Where was it suggested? I don't remember it from the template discussions, and the new taxoboxes look different from the old ones, which had the binomial name and range maps were in separate cells. I like that better, since one isn't part of the other. What do you think of maybe adding a range header to the taxobox?
By the way, I also think it would be a good idea to link to that page from each of the template pages, so people know where to find information on how to use them. Should I go ahead? Also, why are we using <br\> when <br> works fine? Josh 13:50, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
We really should decide what to do about viruses - whether to include them in our phylogenetic system, or not. Also, I'd appreciate comments on my proposed rewrite of our plant article, which I think focuses way to much on boundary cases and not enough on ordinary plants. And, should anyone happen to be interested in protists, it would be neat if anyone had any insight on how to treat the heterokont/stramenopile/chromist group.
Please comment on Talk:Virus, perhaps Talk:Plant, and if you're feeling generous Talk:water mould. Thanks, Josh 15:33, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Whoa! What's with this ( Category:Animalia)? I thought we were:
- UtherSRG 21:04, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I've added Category:Protista and Category:Ciliates. Should we be keeping track of these someplace, in case we decide to adjust them all later? By the way, in addition to taxa and other groups, there are pages that are closely related to specific taxa, and there are images. We should consider including them in our general categories, or creating special categories for them.
So, I've added an experimental Category:Protist images. I think it will be useful, because not many protist have images associated with them yet; the same sort of approach could be useful for other small groups, helping people identify things they find. On the other hand, the current set-up isn't particularly designed for such categories, given that it places everything under I.
Btw, it may be noted the current templates break what links here for both articles and images. Presumably this has been reported? Josh 21:03, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Thanks! That's a much better system.
What about making KPCOFGS categories with stuff in parentheses like this: Category:Mammalia (class), Category:Primates (order), Category:Loridae (family) and so on? Fuelbottle | Talk 18:16, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I didn't know UtherSRG had changed his mind. In that case, do we have a rough agreement on how categories should be used? I agree with Fuel that the current system is messy, but I don't think the ranks help much. It looks like the general opinion is to use common names where possible. The idea seems to be to have one category at each major level, and include only the primary subdivisions. I don't think this works well with poorly developed groups - for instance Category:Ciliates is much better without a hierarchy. But if we only create subcategories when the originals are too large, I think we have a good system, and should maybe add guidelines to this page. Josh 19:46, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Should the stuff in Category:Primates (taxa) be moved to Category:Primates? Fuelbottle | Talk 21:18, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
What's gone wrong with the taxobox at
Cashew? - it should be:
Anacardium occidentale
L.
but is actually showing:
Anacardium occidentale
L.. {20 August 2004 (UTC)}
Can anyone solve it? -
MPF 20:24, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I made Template:Taxobox_section_binomial_botany which is like Template:Taxobox_section_binomial but doesn't have a date. If you don't like it, please change it, but don't put it in too many articles right away. It is currently in use at Garden Chervil. -- Yath 06:40, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
According to IPNI the abbreviation Gray belongs to Samuel Frederick Gray, while quite a lot of the animals described by his son John Edward Gray also have the short reference Gray. If those are correct than we have to make Gray (taxonomist) to be a disambiguation (there was only one taxobox pointing there anyway, which I fixed now), or have to change to use something like Gray (botanist) and Gray (zoologist) instead. BTW: is there anything comparable to IPNI for zoologists? andy 11:55, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The image at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Common_clownfish.jpg is used in the article Clownfish, yet the way it does so (using a taxobox expansion) somehow precludes discovering that fact via the usual automated "What links here" mechanisms. Apparently it is related to a known bug, see Bug #48. Is there a workaround? - [[User:Bevo| Bevo]] 08:27, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Another approach might be to put the images in categories, so that at least the category pages link to them. I think this could be useful even after the bug is fixed, since it lets people know what images are available for a group. Meanwhile, it looks like Image:Common clownfish.jpg found the best protection - getting featured. Josh
Apparently the bug is fixed now - pages which use an image via templates now show up on the image page. However it needs on edit to the article to get an update of the link table. Thus the workarounds to mark images an non-orphan are no longer needed. And together with it some other template bugs were finally fixed. Now we just need optional parameter in templates and ToL will be fully happy with templates. andy 15:08, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The number of layers of taxa that are included in a taxobox varies a lot - Ascaphidae is an example of a completist, modern approach. Other places we are traditional KPCOFGS only. Is it worth standardizing these? Pcb21| Pete 10:15, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Absolutely. Ascaphidae includes way too many ranks, and a number of them are non-standard. While it's nice to have a modern system, there's no need to promulgate it on every family and species page, which provides very little information about them and makes it harder to change when the system does (which they still do routinely). In general, KPCOFGS should be the rule, but some intermediate ranks may important depending on the group in question. This is already detailed on the taxobox use page. Josh 16:08, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I disagree entirely. Gnathostomata is a standard clade, but that is not the same as it being standard within a ranked classification system. On the contrary, they are not always given a rank, and when they are it may vary. More importantly, corresponding groups for the other vertebrates are not well-defined, since many consider Agnatha obsolete. That gives an odd situation where some classes have a supergroup and others don't, and I don't think that's inherently more obvious. The idea that the division between fully accepted and controversial taxa is clear is simply false.
Anyone who understands how classification works should not have a problem with omitted levels, and other people won't get any benefit from including obscure microphyla everywhere. In fact, I don't think restricting intermediate ranks to those immediately relevant will confuse anyone. Either way, though, constantly presenting an enormous array of unfamiliar taxa would be far worse, especially since intermediate ranks are often inconsistent between sources, even when the groups are generally accepted. The current system is a simplified presentation, but I see no reason to believe it is over-simplifies things, except in that it presents a single taxonomy when there are usually several alternatives to choose from.
What exactly do you propose to do about the lampreys? Use Agnatha, although they are generally abandoned by modern systems, or something like superclass Hyperoartia, that won't correspond to almost any of the literature? The names won't convey any information about systematics to people who aren't familiar with them, and those who are will already know the relative positions of lampreys and amphibians. Detailed discussion of relationships should be available in the articles. So why are these options better than simply treating the lampreys without a supergroup, which far better reflects their current treatment?
I'm all for keeping our policy flexible, but I don't see why we should re-evaluate our position here. It's not like this is a new idea, or these points haven't already been discussed several times. Of course the current system isn't perfect, but if we have to re-open old arguments every time someone isn't entirely satisfied with the agreement, we may as well not have a standard. Josh 06:27, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The current page titmouse is a family page coveing the whole of the Paridae (tits & chickadees in Parus, titmice recently split off as Baeolophus, and a few monotypic genera) - I'd like to suggest (1) re-naming the current titmouse as Paridae (currently a redirect to titmouse), (2) re-model titmouse as a genus page for Baeolophus, (3) make a new page for Parus, and (4) the remaining genera names as redirects to their current sole species. Only problem is that the AOU split Parus up into several smaller genera (not followed by any other authorities, as far as I know). Anyone any thoughts? - MPF 18:37, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Is there a mammal expert around here who is able to answer a question about rats and especially rat kings? The question is, if rat kings do really exist or if they are just a product of forgery. See Talk:Rat king. Thanks for any answers. -- Baldhur 21:12, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
A number of biologists have objected to the three-domain system, including several big names like Mayr, Margulis, and Cavalier-Smith. Although this is treated lightly on relevant pages, some of their arguments are substantive. In particular, it is argued that the morphological differences alone don't justify the separation, and that the eubacteria are paraphyletic to the archaebacteria (and eukaryotes), removing the phylogenetic reason for separating them.
I would like to add some notes about this controversy, but I can't seem to find the other side. The only papers I could find arguing that the eubacteria were monophyletic were the originals by Woese, which are based upon his progenote hypothesis and rRNA studies. The former is not widely accepted, and the latter are no longer considered a reliable guide to phylogeny, at least among the eukaryotes where they contradict protein gene studies.
Is the three-domain system still the de facto standard in microbiology, and can someone refer me to a source justifying why? Otherwise, if it is obsolete, should we tone down our support for it and switch to a more neutral organization scheme? Josh 17:07, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This particular problem isn't whether we want to show domains (we don't most of the time), but whether they're an appropriate system to use. That's something that has to be decided, regardless. Even invisible domains impact the division of the prokaryotes - for instance, they would prevent us from using Monera.
What I would like to do is generally reverse the decisions we made on Talk:Bacterium. I think treating the prokaryotes in two kingdoms is the best option, but the names Eubacteria and Archaebacteria should probably be used, since they are unambiguous. The two empire system isn't actually obsolete, since prokaryotes are assumed to be paraphyletic, and I would prefer it as a more neutral alternative to the three-domain system. However, I think it would likely face constant reversion attempts. It is nice to have a supergroup, domain or empire, for all eukaryotes, but not necessary. Josh 03:05, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
As for the wikispecies idea, I think my initial reaction was too harsh, but I do have several concerns. Most notably I think it would end up requiring a full classification for all species, and so preventing us from being flexible in cases where the classification varies or is uncertain. For protists, which are my main interest, phylogenetic taxa are only recently emerging, and I don't think they could be used if the groups had been locked into the old morphological system, instead of being left as unclassified.
Also, I think it's very useful to have language-specific descriptions in the taxoboxes, as for instance on plant. Taking these away would hurt all the wikipediae, making them less accessible, in order to coordinate them. And the most important part, the information in the articles, still wouldn't be coordinated.
The things is, such matters are rarely considered by people interested only in the taxonomy and not the organisms in question. As such, I worry that a wikispecies project would end up dictating systems to the rest of us, without much regard for special considerations or the needs of the articles. It may be worth trying, but it would be nice if you could allay some of these concerns, and discuss some of the details of the proposal. Josh 03:05, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
That covers the languages, but nothing else. The ability to coordinate taxoboxes quickly is only a small part of coordinating articles. Compare es:Protista, where someone had little difficulty copying our taxobox, and as a result we've gone from two systems in two wikipediae to two systems in one. That's not helpful.
In any case, this coordination is only one issue. I think it's more important to be able to maintain flexibilty and meet the needs of the specific groups in question, and I'm asking if we can figure out a way for wikispecies to addres these matters. It doesn't matter what benefit it has in coordination if it breaks what we're coordinating.
Remember taxonomy is a fluid and changing discipline, and there isn't a single system out there for all to follow. How do we decide what systems to use, and most importantly, how do we coordinate a change? This isn't such an issue when the taxoboxes are part of the articles, since they can be updated together, but your proposed separation leaves the prospect of major inconsistencies. This needs to be considered before we decide this is a good idea. Josh 18:47, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
A truly studly wikispecies would allow for multiple taxonomic entries, as in "Curculionidae is a family in Joe Blow's system", "Begoniaceae was in Violales in Cronquist", or whatever. A much-shifted taxon would have quite a few relationship/system entries. An advantage is that appropriate DB queries could reconstruct old systems in their entirety, and in theory, not necessarily useful, one could construct accurate historical taxoboxes as well as current ones. For the table of systems, one would then want a way to choose one as "current", and that would produce the usual taxoboxes for WP articles. Not an easy problem of database design, needs someone who really understands taxonomy deeply, but doable I think. Stan 19:32, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I feel like we probably want to find some way to point editors to Taxobox_Usage right from the main article or edit page. We can certainly make a template linking to the Taxobox_Usage page and add it to article talk pages, but I feel like for important help like this it's good to have something right on the article page too, in case notes on talk are overlooked. I have some preliminary suggestions that I've prototyped here:
I don't consider either solution optimal, but both are better than doing nothing, and maybe someone else will be inspired to a better idea. -- Chinasaur 17:31, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Maybe we could create a new page, explaining the taxoboxes to readers - referring them to how classification works, explaining the color code and bolding, and so forth. Something like that would be entirely appropriate to link to from the main page, and could send new editors to our taxobox use page for further information. Meanwhile, most of the templates have a link there on their talk page, on the hopes people might look there for explanations. Josh 19:14, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Yeah, I remember you mentioning that you were adding that to the talk pages. I also like your suggestion; it's a good compromise to avoid exposing "readers" to too much nitty gritty but still give editors an avenue to find the template help straight from the article page. Ideally the link from the article page would use language that tempts both readers and editors to find out more... How about the HTML comment approach? I like this, but like UtherSRG, I'm a little more HTML friendly than some editors. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a way to use templates to make an HTML comment easily changeable and still appear on the edit page, but I thought it we standardized the comment it would at least be easily bot parseable if it ever came to that. (Despite my better judgement that encouraging bot parsing situations should be avoided, there doesn't seem to be a better way to implement a notice in the edit box.) -- Chinasaur 19:56, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Iv'e added several new pics to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plants_and_animals_of_Belize and as always I'm takeing request. Belizian 17:58, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This is what happens when people with no science background start writing about themselves. A fairly NPOV human article got hugely POVved. this is just a heads up, folks. Dunc_Harris| ☺ 21:00, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Do we have a standard for how groups are ranked? There are at least thirteen well-known and reasonably stable groups between phylum Chordata and class Aves (Chordata — Craniata — Vertebrata — Gnathostomata — Teleostomi — Sarcopterygii — Tetrapoda — Amniota — Reptilia — Diapsida — Archosauria — Dinosauria — Saurischia — Theropoda — Aves). How are these to be ranked (if at all)? And what should taxoboxes look like in these articles? Gdr 18:37, 2004 Sep 1 (UTC)
It should be noted that these groups aren't entirely stable. Sarcopterygii may exclude the amniotes, and everything from Reptilia to Theropoda may exclude the birds. Not everyone has agreed that paraphyletic groups are invalid; they are logical necessities for extinct groups. Those that avoid them have difficulty ranking vertebrates, since you have large groups like Aves and Amniota with tiny sisters like deinonychosaurs and lungfish.
I don't think we should include any of these groups in the taxoboxes until a more generally acceptable system that uses them emerges. We could add a more phylocode-like table, but outside of the vertebrates and perhaps the higher plant groups, the ranked systems seem to work fine. Josh 21:10, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
At the moment there isn't a system. People have been using the phylogenetic groups as formal taxa randomly, making up ranks as they go without worrying about inconsistencies. This is largely because there isn't an established system that uses them.
I tried discussing what classes we should use on Talk:Chordate, but it didn't attract much comment. However, most low-level groups are happy using the classes Actinopterygii, Amphibia, Mammalia, Aves, and Reptilia, with the last understood to be paraphyletic. We should probably stick with this and standardize other pages to it, although it means we can't use Reptilia through Theropoda as clades in the taxobox.
If you have ideas on better systems, I'd be happy to hear them. However, note that clade-only schemes simply don't work with extinct groups. For instance, whatever we rank Aves, we'd need to rank crocodylians, pterosaurs, ornithischians, coelophysids, ceratosaurs, spinosaurs, allosaurs, tyrannosaurs, ornithomimids, therizinosaurs, and deinonychosaurs at least as high. We could try a rankless system, but I don't think it would do too well for such common animals. Josh 16:38, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Azhyd added an orphan page on an interesting proteobacterium, Pelagibacter ubique. However, strange to say, it looks like the formal name of the organism is actually Candidatus Pelagibacter ubique. There is some information on this type of name at LSBN. How do we want to handle it? A new binomial name template can be made easily, but how should it show up in the placement (or subdivision boxes), and should the article be moved or kept where it is? Josh 22:41, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
In this case, it looks like Candidatus is used because the species hasn't met the qualifications for formal publication. If it is just a status, I guess the page doesn't need much changing, but the sudden inversion of whether the name is italicized when it is included makes me wonder if it can be validly excluded. At any rate, it should definitely be included along with the attribution, and I will make {{ Taxobox_section_binomial_candidatus}} accordingly.
As for monotypic genera, are you proposing the page be moved to Pelagibacter, or simply that the title be changed? I'd be happy to do the former, but it would probably be better if the redirect was deleted first. We should probably draw up some standards for such pages. Josh 01:29, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Hi all - Several of us have been working on creating a Wikimedia Newsletter on Meta. Since ToL is by far the largest WikiProect in Wikipedia we would like one (or more) of you to write a quick summary of where the project stands for the newsletter. We are especially interested in how the different language versions interact and the possible use of the Wikimedia Commons to store taxoboxes. Anything you can add will be appreciated. :) -- mav 04:51, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
To whom it may concern: Please feel free to visit Wikipedia:WikiProject Dog breeds/Categories because I think that structuring various animal articles and Dog articles could take a similar tack--would be nice to use same subcategories for consistency. I've left messages all over various Cat and Horse articles and topics to this same effect.
One thing I see (that someone else also just noticed) is a slight inconsistency of the listing for wild vs domesticated dogs & cats. Non-domesticated canines are listed in Category:Canines, while domesticated dogs & articles about them are in Category:Dogs, a subcategory thereof. Category:Cats, however, lists all--I'd think for consistency it should be Category:Felines for wild cats and Category:Cats similarly structured to Dogs; looks like Category:Equids follows this, but then there is no Category:Horse. Elf | Talk 04:28, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Shark articles have picked up a Template:Sharks, which is incomplete, redundant with the category, and will be gigantic if all 368 shark species get included in it. Between taxoboxes and categories, I'm inclined to say that's plenty of navigational machinery, and the template on top of that is just extra noise. Any other opinions? Stan 15:31, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Could someone identify the plants pictured here and add them to the appropriate article? →Raul654 03:22, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)
With some non-classification entries, Bagworm moth has a few lines in there that don't fit with the current taxobox. I'm sure there's a separate debate as to whether those things actually belong in the taxobox, but for now, I think we need a Template:Taxobox_foo_entry for them (Taxobox_unranked_entry is not it). Unfortunately, I cannot think of a good name for it. Help would be appreciated :-) -- Yath 07:14, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The current page is prosimian, but I think it would be best to split it into two articles. "Prosimian" is a polyphylogenic grouping that includes all strepsirrhines, plus the tarsiers and the extinct omomyids. Please follow up on talk:prosimian - UtherSRG 15:29, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
We are planning to use taxoboxes in Finnish Wikipedia. However, there is a major obstacle: I have found nowhere a guide what templates are needed for a taxobox. Of course I can find some templates by looking at the page markup, but where is a thorough list? - Hapsiainen 23:29, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)
So apparently, a separate wikispecies project has been created to handle taxonomy. So far it seems copying our material has been a higher priority than notifying us here, but since they exist and will probably want to work with us in the future, I'd encourage participants here to help them draw up standards that will maximize their utility and minimize the overlap in content. The main URL is species.wikipedia.org, and most of the discussion seems to be on their village pump. Josh 08:56, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Someone added two lines (Eutheria and Vertebrata) to the taxobox on Wolf, and I removed them. then they were added back, and I removed them again. Please go to talk:wolf and vote on whether the lines should be added or not. - UtherSRG 16:43, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I’m attending the Wikimeeting in Rotterdam, Netherlands on November 27. I’m going to propose there an idea, that I ‘ve had for some time and which may also concern ToL. I have encountered many websites, which made requests for appropriate images or photos. Usually with a good measure of success (cfr. The Seaslugforum of Dr. Bill Rudman), with unique photos of seaslugs sent by enthusiasts and divers from all over the world. The same goes for many other websites about fauna and flora. This gave me the idea : why can’t we do the same ? Many of our articles lack the right or fitting image. There must be enough viewers in the world, willing to put THEIR photo in that article, even under the stringent copyright restrictions of Wikipedia. Therefore, if we could put an OPTIONAL textbox at the bottom of the article, it could be done this way :
This way, we can avoid having to beg all over the world for photos. You can call yourself lucky if you even get a reply. These are then mostly negative, because of the stringent restrictions on copyright. A few times, you strike lucky. But in the end, it is a lot of work that could be avoided by this textbox. I realize that this goes beyond ToL and this may need new programming. But I think that this idea has its merits, even if it is a first draft. Ãny reactions ? JoJan 18:30, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The PloS is a new open-access organization whose mission is to make the world’s scientific and medical literature a public resource. They operate under the Creative Commons agreement {{cc-by-2.0}}, in other words within the copyright restraints of Wikipedia. I bring this to your attention, since PLoS Biology will contain articles which might be of interest to us. JoJan 12:33, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I have a problem with the taxobox entry line called "Species" and I'm somewhat surprised no one else has caught it (maybe I'm just unaware of past discussion?). It is incorrect (see definition under Species) to call the second term in a binomial name a "species". The species is the binomial name. A correct listing would be (for example) Genus: Colocasia, Species: C. esculenta. It might be cleaner to simply eliminate the "Species" line and, following "Genus," have the next "box" called "Binomial" give the actual species name (w/o shortened genus and with authorship). The situation as it is now suffers from being both redundant and misleading. - Marshman 21:21, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Although I'm personally opposed to deciding anything by vote as it is foolish to think that "facts" can be decided in such a way, there are obviously a few here who believe there is a "taxobox standard" that all should adhere to. Since this issue of erroneously declaring a species name "species" is championed by only one person with apparently no biological training, the rest of this "standards" group needs to step up and be counted. Essentially, the taxobox has been taken over as one person's personal venue (essentially it has become a POV item), a situation that will continue to drive off competent contributers like Clockwork Troll in the Wolf controversy (below). - Marshman 17:20, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Actually I was unaware of any debate over the "species line", and so never weighed in, but it has also been troubling me for some time, because it seems redundant; there is always a full binomal name section immediately below. Unlike every other line in the placement section, the epithet line will almost never have a link - in the rare case that a subspecies deserves its own article, the links will likely be in the text, not in taxobox. As far as I can tell, the species line is mostly there because it was in the original design, and hasn't been seriously re-evaluated since. So I'd like to concur with Marshman's proposal to just whack the line altogether; no capability or information will be lost, and taxoboxes will be smaller. Most importantly of all :-), it makes the nomenclature discussion moot! Stan 18:04, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The thing to remember is that taxoboxes apply to all ranks, not just species. The reason the species name or epithet is in the placement box is because it parallels other groups like Rosaceae, Carnivora, and Heterotrichea. The decision as to whether to restrict the placement to supergroups should be made with all of them in mind, not just this one case. It would require creating a new box comparable to the binomial name box, which would be useful for indicating authorship, but it makes it very difficult to handle groups with multiple ranks such as Symbion.
Whether or not the species epithet can be given by itself is a different issue. Originally I had thought a few other sites used them, but checking now I can only find uBio, and that's only because their database doesn't allow spaces. I think Marshman can be taken as authoritative here. Since the matter has been brought up three times now, it's safe to say the present system should be changed.
I'd propose that we start by changing the taxobox placement to read G. species, or at least change the standard to suggest that. This is something that would have to be done anyways, since species will be listed as supergroups on subspecies pages. Then, as a separate issue, we should consider changing the placement or binomial name boxes to make things less redundant. Personally, I don't really like Marshman's suggestion, and would much rather change the placement box to include the authorship, as shown at right. Josh 23:20, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Please, I've not said that species is the "Species name". What I've said I'll say again: "Species name" is Genus species or G. species). "Species epithet" is species. The strong caveat is that the species epithet should be used alone sparingly and only when the context is perfectly clear. To prove it, I open randomly to page 160 in Groves' Primage Taxonomy. (If anyone can refute Groves' standing as a learned biologist and taxonomist, I give up). On 160, he uses the epithets boliviensis and sciureus on their own (thrice for boliviensis) while using full or abbreviated names twenty times, all from the same genus. Species epithets can and are used alone as I have been describing over and over by learned and scholarly biologists and taxonomists. If it was absolutely forbidden to use the epithet alone as Marshman suggests, I'm absolutely certain that Groves would not have done so. If need be, I'll type in the relevant passages from Groves to show just exactly how he used the naked epithets. - UtherSRG 05:41, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
My question about subspecies was about how should the taxobox be utilized. Should there be a species line following the genus line? Should there be a subspecies line following the species line? The standardized format is that the lowest line in the placement section of the taxobox be the most specific part of the taxonomy. To remove the species line (or the subspecies line) from the species (or subspecies) taxobox breaks this format and makes the placement portion of the taxobox identical for a genus, a species, and a subspecies taxobox. This does not work for me. Marshman's suggestion of using the abbreviated species name also doesn't work, for then a subspecies taxobox will contain Genus, G. species, and G. s. subspecies. It gets even worse when there is a subgenus as well, for we get a bit of skippage: Genus, (Subgenus), G. (S.) species, G. (S.) s. subspecies. - UtherSRG 05:41, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
That's the extreme case, though. Putting G. species in the taxobox is somewhat redundant, but not if the alternative involves repeating the binomial name in full. It also makes it plain what the name of the species is, whereas the current system switches from taxon names to epithets without explanation. And it is closer to other taxonomy sites, like NCBI, tree of life, and Systema Naturae, which universally list the genus name or abbreviation.
I've never seen a text use epithets by themselves, and this is the third argument that it can't be done, this time by a practicing biologist. As such it doesn't matter whether it's officially permitted or not, it's evidently very rare. The alternative form might be a little repetitive but I think it adds clarity, and it is definitely preferrable to using something so obscure, which will only lead to further debate. I know you don't like using G. species as much, but how much support for it does there need to be for us to change? Josh 07:27, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
P.S. uBio does give epithets by themselves, but it capitalizes them, so I'm going to assume that's a database thing.
The people who write taxoboxes could handle it but it would make their meaning less obvious. If we remove the species, we should also move genera, families, and the like to boxes. The only problem is groups that have multiple ranks, as above. Do you actually have any objection to the alternate form I proposed? I don't think the G. makes things excessively wide. Josh 08:44, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The binomial name box says what group is here, and the subdivision box says how it's broken up, so they aren't interchangeable. If we pull the group from the placement box, in most cases we would need to have both. I'd support that, if we can come up with a good way to handle pages like Chloroflexi, but I don't see one. Note subdivision lists already give species as G. epithet, and the full scientific name can always be a redirect. Josh 21:33, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This discussion is a waste of time and energy. I am a taxonomist, and while I would NEVER use a species epithet by itself in the text of a taxonomic article (so the Groves example does not apply), I see no problem with having such an epithet just below the generic name in a table. There is no ambiguity whatsoever in this case. Why not leave well enough alone. If we were starting something new, perhaps there could be a reasonable argument, but already more changes are being made tweaking unimportant things than in real substantive editing. WormRunner | Talk 06:46, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I would prefer using abbreviations at all levels above the lowest level in the table. So an entry for Gongora armeniaca subsp. cornuta would look like
-- Nighthawk4211 19:44, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
{{Taxobox_begin | color = lightgreen | name = Box 4}} <!-- {{Taxobox_image | image = | caption = }} --> {{Taxobox_begin_placement | color = lightgreen}} {{Taxobox_regnum_entry | taxon = [[Plant]]ae}} {{Taxobox_divisio_entry | taxon = [[flowering plant|Magnoliophyta]]}} {{Taxobox_classis_entry | taxon = [[Liliopsida]]}} {{Taxobox_ordo_entry | taxon = [[Arales]]}} {{Taxobox_familia_entry | taxon = [[Araceae]]}} {{Taxobox_genus_entry | taxon = ''[[Colocasia]]''}} {{Taxobox_end_placement}} {{Taxobox_section_binomial_botany | color = lightgreen | binomial_name = Colocasia esculenta | author = ([[Carolus Linnaeus|L.]]) [[Heinrich Wilhelm Schott|Schott]]}} {{Taxobox_end}} {{Taxobox_begin | color = lightgreen | name = Box 3}} <!-- {{Taxobox_image | image = | caption = }} --> {{Taxobox_begin_placement | color = lightgreen}} {{Taxobox_regnum_entry | taxon = [[Plant]]ae}} {{Taxobox_divisio_entry | taxon = [[flowering plant|Magnoliophyta]]}} {{Taxobox_classis_entry | taxon = [[Liliopsida]]}} {{Taxobox_ordo_entry | taxon = [[Arales]]}} {{Taxobox_familia_entry | taxon = [[Araceae]]}} {{Taxobox_genus_entry | taxon = ''[[Colocasia]]''}} {{Taxobox_species_entry | taxon = '''''C. esculenta'''''}} {{Taxobox_end_placement}} {{Taxobox_section_binomial_botany | color = lightgreen | binomial_name = Colocasia esculenta | author = ([[Carolus Linnaeus|L.]]) [[Heinrich Wilhelm Schott|Schott]]}} {{Taxobox_end}} {{Taxobox_begin | color = lightgreen | name = Box 2}} <!-- {{Taxobox_image | image = | caption = }} --> {{Taxobox_begin_placement | color = lightgreen}} {{Taxobox_regnum_entry | taxon = [[Plant]]ae}} {{Taxobox_divisio_entry | taxon = [[flowering plant|Magnoliophyta]]}} {{Taxobox_classis_entry | taxon = [[Liliopsida]]}} {{Taxobox_ordo_entry | taxon = [[Arales]]}} {{Taxobox_familia_entry | taxon = [[Araceae]]}} {{Taxobox_genus_entry | taxon = '''''[[Colocasia]]'''''}} {{Taxobox_species_entry | taxon = '''''esculenta'''''}} {{Taxobox_end_placement}} {{Taxobox_section_binomial_botany | color = lightgreen | binomial_name = Colocasia esculenta | author = ([[Carolus Linnaeus|L.]]) [[Heinrich Wilhelm Schott|Schott]]}} {{Taxobox_end}} {{Taxobox_begin | color = lightgreen | name = Box 1}} {{Taxobox_begin_placement | color = lightgreen}} {{Taxobox_regnum_entry | taxon = [[Plant]]ae}} {{Taxobox_divisio_entry | taxon = [[flowering plant|Magnoliophyta]]}} {{Taxobox_classis_entry | taxon = [[Liliopsida]]}} {{Taxobox_ordo_entry | taxon = [[Arales]]}} {{Taxobox_familia_entry | taxon = [[Araceae]]}} {{Taxobox_genus_entry | taxon = ''[[Colocasia]]''}} <tr><td valign=top>Species:</td><td>'''''C. esculenta'''''<br><small>([[Carolus Linnaeus|L.]]) [[Heinrich Wilhelm Schott|Schott]]</small> </td></tr> {{Taxobox_end_placement}} {{Taxobox_end}}
I've moved the taxoboxes from above to here, and added two more (the current format and another possibility). I think we've all had a say and I don't expect there to be any change in positions. Which means it's getting close to time to lining up the options and coming to a concensus on which option to use. To facilitate that, voila. Let's see about doing this for a week. (Polling closes 16:00, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC) ) - UtherSRG 15:47, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The status quo is Box 2. It's my preference to keep status quo, and it's what we should do until we have concensus to change. My least favorite is Box 4. Of the others, I think I'm equally ambivalent about them, but can support using them. Box 1 would require a new template to be created (not a bad thing, just stating facts), or the existing genus entry template to be modified, and it wouldn't be difficult to do. - UtherSRG 15:57, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Note boxes 1, 3, and 4 eliminate the reasons for bolding the genus. Josh
Well the poll isn't closed, but the results have been unchanged for some days, and it is clear the status quo doesn't enjoy support. Box 1 and box 3 look like being the only contenders worth thinking about (5/1/1 and 7/1/1 respectively). Yath is your opposition to box 1 strong? Marshman box 3? Pcb21| Pete 08:52, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm updating the page to make box 3 the tentative new standard. Josh 18:47, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Should an article like this be at the title Oleaceae which is now a redirect. Some of the species seem pretty far from the common understanding of an olive. Rmhermen 14:10, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
problem. :-) But we've signed up with the Latin names. (Might not hurt to have redirs tho, "soapberry family" garners several thousand matches, 600 of them not mentioning Sapindaceae at all.) Stan 17:03, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
When I come across a taxobox created with the table code rather than the new ToL template I update it. I'm not sure if people are of the opinion 'if it ain't broke -don't fix it', or if its better to update them to make any subsequent updates simpler. A list of entries with the 'old' template can be found here .-- nixie 02:48, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
(Posted by new User:Fledgeling on my user page - can anyone help out? I'll have a look in HBW, but I suspect that's not up-to-date enough) - MPF 09:51, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
There were tought to be three species and two sub-species untill 1995, when DNA tests on the different Kiwi populations proved otherwise. Today we know that the species formerly known as Brown Kiwi is actually three distinct species – Brown Kiwi, Rowi and Tokoeka. And the Tokoeka currently has two varieties - Haast Tokoeka and Southern Tokoeka. The Rowi was identified as a seperate species in 2003, the latest to be identified as a seperate species.--- http://www.kiwirecovery.org.nz/Kiwi/AboutTheBird/TheKiwiFamily/
I have noticed this page is sorely out of date, but since i only came yesterday i do not have the expertise, 'Wikification' knowlege, or guts to take on the task of editing such a large, prominent peice. Since you listed one of your interests as birds, i was hoping you might be interested in takling this project. You dont have to, of course, but i felt this topic should be brought up
P.S. Is there a better place to put this information?
Thanks 04:11, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Back in the spring I was working on some fish articles, and someone moved them all to title capitalization (the infamous one being Neon Tetra instead of Neon tetra). AFAICT this is not mandated anywhere in the ToL pages, and it violates Wikipedia standards about using normal English sentence capitalization for article titles. I was told back then that capitalizing everything was the new standard for ToL. However, from looking around, it doesn't seem like most articles follow this (undocumented) standard. Can anyone help me out? — Tkinias 18:30, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
(Reverting to no-indent...) Naturally, I agree with User:Knowledge Seeker. I note that, unfortunately, the Oxford Style Manual (a UK style manual) gives no guidance on the specific subject of capitalizing common names. OED, of course, does not capitalize them. ICBN/ICZN I don't think concern themselves at all (and from what I've seen avoid mentioning) common names. I note that ICZN docs on their Web site downcase anglicized versions of names of higher taxa -- therefore, "the Centrarchidae" but "this fish is a centrarchid". I've proposed a standard specifically for fish at Wikipedia:WikiProject Fishes, but there's not been much response. — Tkinias 03:47, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Addendum: Survey of several on-line taxonomic sources: NCBI Entrez, University of Michigan Animal Diversity Web, Tree of Life Project, and Integrated Taxonomic Information System all uniformly use lower-case common names for taxa of all levels. So do the journals Nature, American Journal of Botany, International Journal of Plant Sciences (just some for which I had easy on-line access). I could not readily determine if Science has a policy on this since I didn't find any unambiguous use in their on-line number. I found no use of capitalized common names in any on-line taxonomic sources I checked. The only use I have seen is in things like bird-watcher' books and aquarium hobbyists' works; apparently capitalization is a standard in specialist ornithological works, but I don't have access to any of that. (Maybe some of our ornithologists could provide journal names which use this standard?) — Tkinias 04:24, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
There is something of an edit war starting with User:Mario and Dario on Anseriformes, Anatidae and the various whistling duck species' pages. I posted the following on their talk page:
Wikipedia:WikiProject Tree of Life
Unfortunately, their only response has been to revert my changes, which I thought were a fair compromise. Any views? Should the relevant pages be protected pending resolution? jimfbleak 06:51, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I haven't found any guidelines on this in the project page or in the talk archives, but if it's there just point me in the right direction, please! *grin*
There seems not to be consistency regarding the anglicization of names for higher taxa. Since I'm working on fishes (see Wikipedia:WikiProject Fishes), I'm primarily concerned with them, where the family names are normally of the form Fooidae and the order names of the form Fooiformes, where both derive from the generic name Foous (or Fooa). It is common to anglicize the family name as "fooid", and (less so) the order name as "fooiform". Should articles and categories be using Fooidae/Fooiformes or fooid/fooiform? The Latin forms violate the singular and the English-language rules for article names, but in some cases the anglicized forms just look a bit odd. The plural angicized order names in particular look strange, because they look like misspellings of the Latin forms (Fooiforms for Fooiformes). In most cases, the anglicized systematic names are the only unambiguous English names available (how else, for example, to distinguish Perca, Percinae, Percidae, and Perciformes?). I'd like to do cleanup on this as I go through the taxa, but I'm not sure which to standardize on. What does the ToL community think about this?
One way to handle it might be to use (singular) anglicizations for article names and (plural) Latin forms for categories.
(On a related subject, can one anglicize a subfamily name of form Fooinae as "fooine"—e.g., can one refer to the "percine fishes" for fishes of subfamily Percinae?) — Tkinias 03:18, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I'd like to get a feeling for peoples like or dislkie for the 'always used common names' paradigm. I don't like is for a few reasons:
I think a better system would be to have redirects to the species or disambiguation pages where a common name applies to many species. Since wikipedia isn't paper an integrated system of cross referencing shouldn't be a problem, nor should updating if name changes occurs. Let me know what you think, and I'll decide if I should take this on to the Village Pump-- nixie 04:58, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Um, let's have some of the plant and bird folks weigh in on this one. - UtherSRG 12:46, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)