Rail transport in Germany task force/Conventions/Archive 1
the following text has been restored here after unilateral deletion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Trains/Rail transport in Germany task force, combined with a move of the commented-on topic to here
Please comment here.
Oppose the whole text; this "convention" reads like a personal reflection and does not refer to the general Wikipedia policies which apply to the areas concerned at all, and frequently ignores them completely in its provisions. In particular, the naming conventions are in direct opposition to the consensus described in WP:Use English and have a significant potential for producing names in violation of core content policies, particularly WP:OR. Per WP:CONSENSUS, this text should be abandoned as a local consensus cannot overturn the wider consensus as recorded in the main policy and guideline pages. -- Rogerb67 ( talk) 13:44, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
Oppose. Unfortunately this convention contradicts WP policy and MoS in several places, and it needs a thorough point be point review in order to eliminate these contradictions. I'm not sure how much this would leave of value; the only real way to tell is to conduct the review. As a start, I've listed some contradictions below. -- Starbois ( talk) 14:10, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
Some further contradictions:
-- Rogerb67 ( talk) 20:18, 12 March 2009 (UTC) end of restored text
Please note I have added a template header to inform readers of the current status of this document.
While the new document does at least acknowledge the existence of policy, it appears to abuse its intent in some places. This appears to be a sticking plaster where radical surgery is needed (sorry for the idiom; I mean that much bigger changes are required). I cannot support the current version any more than the original, and essentially all the faults of the original as described above remain.
Also, I note that reference is made to consensus on German Wikipedia. This is not relevant on English Wikipedia.
Should all editors be changing this draft document, or should debate be restricted to this talk page? -- Rogerb67 ( talk) 00:17, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
The context for the comments above was a separate and entirely justifiable debate about whether a particular article should be named "Kirnitzsch Valley Railway" or "Kirnitzschtalbahn" or something else. This type of issue is raised in the opening paragraph of the conventions:
"Translation is not an exact science: there is often more than one option and sometimes it is difficult to know whether to translate words, especially names, at all."
In putting the case for a fuller translation of such names, the convention was referred to, attracting the strongly-held views above.
Whilst I wholeheartedly encourage debate; I would just point out that sometimes there is no "right" or "wrong" answer. In this case both approaches can work; each has pros and cons. However, the arguments need to be clearly stated. Having followed the links above, I have been unable to find where they substantiate the views being expressed. Links are cited, but the words don't match the argument. To my mind, the links tend to support the convention or are just unspecific. I am clear, however, that we should not contradict wider Wikipedia guidance, unless there is a good case otherwise. As the convention says:
"These [guidelines] are intended to extend and further clarify, not replace, existing Wikipedia conventions."
Debate is healthy and we learn from it. In particular, I have begun to amend some of the guidance and to add specific references to wider Wikipedia guidelines and practice to show the provenance of some of the suggested guidelines. I hope this helps Please engage in the discussion and let's make Wikipedia better still and, in particular, more intelligible for the majority of our English-speaking readers who don't understand German. -- Bermicourt ( talk) 12:28, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Deutsche Sprache, schwere Sprache, sound familiar? Maybe we're trying to take on too much at once. Here my take:
URL | hits |
---|---|
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Weisseritztalbahn+-wikipedia-org+-wikimedia-org | 18600 |
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Weisseritz+Valley+Railway+-wikipedia-org+-wikimedia-org | 159 |
-- Captndelta ( talk) 10:17, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Actually there's a more fundamental debate than the use of various dashes: the stations themselves are not actually called (in most cases) München-xyz, but just xyz. Adding the city name seems to be an En Wiki convention. I have looked at the entire Munich S-Bahn and U-Bahn map and cannot find a single station prefixed by München. So perhaps Bremen-Vegesack is really Vegesack after all. And then surely we only need Vegesack (Bremen) if there's another Vegesack article. But I'm reluctant to move all the articles created by someone else. It's not necessarily wrong and we have better things to do - like creating and translating more articles!
I tend to agree that where we have a company name there is an argument for not translating that and mostly I have left them in the original. However, there is both precedent in original sources, as well as clarity and merit in translating some company names e.g. Royal Saxon State Railways which otherwise is meaningless, unpronounceable and unspellable gobbledegook to an English reader. I myself am not sure where to draw the line here; e.g. Arriva is basically untranslatable anyway, but Regentalbahn is not. As you say, schwere Sprache.
I am less inclined to accept Google hits as an authoritative way of deciding which way to go. The problem is that railway sites are often created by railway buffs who either learn basic railway German or can't translate the words effectively or are native German speakers anyway. But Wikipedia isn't just for gricers or German speakers, it's for everyone. If you look at travel books, they take it rather more seriously and tend to translate more so that English readers can understand what things are. But there are few hard and fast rules. That's why we're having a discussion.
I also agree that there is a limit to translating and it's this. We shouldn't translate the actual proper name part of a compound word. The Selbitz Fluß is the Selbitz River, the Selbitztal is the Selbitz Valley. That is standard English practice. I would never propose that Weißeritztalbahn becomes "Wild white creek valley railway" (evocative though it sounds!) or that Düsseldorf becomes "twit village" (even if some might think it apt!), nor would anyone else I suspect. Gruß. -- Bermicourt ( talk) 13:00, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Rail transport in Germany task force/Conventions/Archive 1
the following text has been restored here after unilateral deletion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Trains/Rail transport in Germany task force, combined with a move of the commented-on topic to here
Please comment here.
Oppose the whole text; this "convention" reads like a personal reflection and does not refer to the general Wikipedia policies which apply to the areas concerned at all, and frequently ignores them completely in its provisions. In particular, the naming conventions are in direct opposition to the consensus described in WP:Use English and have a significant potential for producing names in violation of core content policies, particularly WP:OR. Per WP:CONSENSUS, this text should be abandoned as a local consensus cannot overturn the wider consensus as recorded in the main policy and guideline pages. -- Rogerb67 ( talk) 13:44, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
Oppose. Unfortunately this convention contradicts WP policy and MoS in several places, and it needs a thorough point be point review in order to eliminate these contradictions. I'm not sure how much this would leave of value; the only real way to tell is to conduct the review. As a start, I've listed some contradictions below. -- Starbois ( talk) 14:10, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
Some further contradictions:
-- Rogerb67 ( talk) 20:18, 12 March 2009 (UTC) end of restored text
Please note I have added a template header to inform readers of the current status of this document.
While the new document does at least acknowledge the existence of policy, it appears to abuse its intent in some places. This appears to be a sticking plaster where radical surgery is needed (sorry for the idiom; I mean that much bigger changes are required). I cannot support the current version any more than the original, and essentially all the faults of the original as described above remain.
Also, I note that reference is made to consensus on German Wikipedia. This is not relevant on English Wikipedia.
Should all editors be changing this draft document, or should debate be restricted to this talk page? -- Rogerb67 ( talk) 00:17, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
The context for the comments above was a separate and entirely justifiable debate about whether a particular article should be named "Kirnitzsch Valley Railway" or "Kirnitzschtalbahn" or something else. This type of issue is raised in the opening paragraph of the conventions:
"Translation is not an exact science: there is often more than one option and sometimes it is difficult to know whether to translate words, especially names, at all."
In putting the case for a fuller translation of such names, the convention was referred to, attracting the strongly-held views above.
Whilst I wholeheartedly encourage debate; I would just point out that sometimes there is no "right" or "wrong" answer. In this case both approaches can work; each has pros and cons. However, the arguments need to be clearly stated. Having followed the links above, I have been unable to find where they substantiate the views being expressed. Links are cited, but the words don't match the argument. To my mind, the links tend to support the convention or are just unspecific. I am clear, however, that we should not contradict wider Wikipedia guidance, unless there is a good case otherwise. As the convention says:
"These [guidelines] are intended to extend and further clarify, not replace, existing Wikipedia conventions."
Debate is healthy and we learn from it. In particular, I have begun to amend some of the guidance and to add specific references to wider Wikipedia guidelines and practice to show the provenance of some of the suggested guidelines. I hope this helps Please engage in the discussion and let's make Wikipedia better still and, in particular, more intelligible for the majority of our English-speaking readers who don't understand German. -- Bermicourt ( talk) 12:28, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Deutsche Sprache, schwere Sprache, sound familiar? Maybe we're trying to take on too much at once. Here my take:
URL | hits |
---|---|
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Weisseritztalbahn+-wikipedia-org+-wikimedia-org | 18600 |
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Weisseritz+Valley+Railway+-wikipedia-org+-wikimedia-org | 159 |
-- Captndelta ( talk) 10:17, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Actually there's a more fundamental debate than the use of various dashes: the stations themselves are not actually called (in most cases) München-xyz, but just xyz. Adding the city name seems to be an En Wiki convention. I have looked at the entire Munich S-Bahn and U-Bahn map and cannot find a single station prefixed by München. So perhaps Bremen-Vegesack is really Vegesack after all. And then surely we only need Vegesack (Bremen) if there's another Vegesack article. But I'm reluctant to move all the articles created by someone else. It's not necessarily wrong and we have better things to do - like creating and translating more articles!
I tend to agree that where we have a company name there is an argument for not translating that and mostly I have left them in the original. However, there is both precedent in original sources, as well as clarity and merit in translating some company names e.g. Royal Saxon State Railways which otherwise is meaningless, unpronounceable and unspellable gobbledegook to an English reader. I myself am not sure where to draw the line here; e.g. Arriva is basically untranslatable anyway, but Regentalbahn is not. As you say, schwere Sprache.
I am less inclined to accept Google hits as an authoritative way of deciding which way to go. The problem is that railway sites are often created by railway buffs who either learn basic railway German or can't translate the words effectively or are native German speakers anyway. But Wikipedia isn't just for gricers or German speakers, it's for everyone. If you look at travel books, they take it rather more seriously and tend to translate more so that English readers can understand what things are. But there are few hard and fast rules. That's why we're having a discussion.
I also agree that there is a limit to translating and it's this. We shouldn't translate the actual proper name part of a compound word. The Selbitz Fluß is the Selbitz River, the Selbitztal is the Selbitz Valley. That is standard English practice. I would never propose that Weißeritztalbahn becomes "Wild white creek valley railway" (evocative though it sounds!) or that Düsseldorf becomes "twit village" (even if some might think it apt!), nor would anyone else I suspect. Gruß. -- Bermicourt ( talk) 13:00, 6 May 2009 (UTC)