This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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There is one source cited for the full-professionalism of this league (from the league itself), but my reading of it is that the league's aspiration was to be fully-pro, not that the league actually achieved it. I've found a few articles which cast strong doubts on the league's status as anything but part-time professional. The national football team manager, Dennis Lawrence, disputes the full professionalism of the league in a July 2019 article. Former national team goalkeeper, Shaka Hislop, commented on the league's part-time status in a September 2008 blog posting. Another point of interest is Hislop's claim (which appears fairly consistent with the source cited on this page) about the league's player salaries averaging USD 10,000 compares unfavorably to entry level school teacher salaries at the International School of the Port of Spain. If league players earn significantly less than entry level school teachers, it suggests that they are not full-time players as they would need other sources of income to supplement their playing wages. I think it's time to remove TT Pro League from the FPL ranks until we find better sourcing that demonstrates it is indeed a fully-pro league. Jogurney ( talk) 13:24, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
I have been informed that the Scottish Football League First Division; the second level of Scottish football prior to the 2013 revamp of the Scottish pyramid, should be considered a previous name for the current Scottish Championship, thus making it a fully professional league. Might I suggest that a note be added to the Scottish Championship section to reflect this, and to prevent any confusion between the Scottish First Division, a professional league by notability standards, and the Scottish League One, which does not meet the Professional standards and would therefore not count toward a players notability?
-- Curt内蒙 ( talk) 19:48, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
I came across am archived discussion regarding the professionalism of the Turkish 1. Lig, ( link). It seems that it was agreed to be put on the list. Also, I came across a similar discussions about the Lithuanian A Lyga as well as the Costa Rican Primera Division ( link 1 and link 2) that seemed to reach the same conclusion. Would it be okay to put all (or one) of these leagues on the list? Thanks, Das osmnezz ( talk) 18:46, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
What is the word with the Girabola, Yemeni League and the Zimbabwe Premier Soccer League as their has been no word of whenever these leagues are now professional or not. HawkAussie ( talk) 02:07, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
On an unrelated note, what is the status of the National Independent Soccer Association, the new USSF sanctioned league? There have been concerns in the past about prior American leagues and I wasn't sure what the consensus was for this one. Jay eyem ( talk) 22:43, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
I was improving Roland Storme and came across a KW article (it requires free registration with the site unfortunately) which describes the Belgian First Division as not being fully professional prior to 1960 (a top player on the league's top club had to work during the day and train with his football club at night). Should we set a start date for full professionalism at 1960? I suspect it wasn't yet fully-pro by 1960, but according to the article it certainly wasn't before that time. Jogurney ( talk) 05:12, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
Is there any link to see if these two leagues are professional or not as in the article page, it says that they are a professional league and it's partly support with this link here and here which both mention Thai League 2 as professional but not League 3. But I feel like their are probably better references out there stating the professional status of League 2. HawkAussie ( talk) 05:59, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
The Greek football league system has had a restructuring for 2019–20, with Super League Greece 2 coming in as the new second tier; with the Football League, Gamma Ethniki etc. moving down a tier each. Therefore, given the Super League (1) and Football League are listed as professional, shouldn't the Super League 2 be added? Perhaps a review of the Greek leagues at FPL is needed? R96Skinner ( talk) 17:21, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
I came across an Ouest France article which indicates Guingamp did not become a fully professional club until 1984, despite being in Ligue 2 since 1977. Should we set a start date for the league's full professionalism at 1984? It's possible that other Ligue 2 clubs became fully-professional after 1984, but certainly it brings into doubt whether the league was fully-pro prior to 1984. Jogurney ( talk) 20:12, 2 October 2019 (UTC) The Ligue 2 article in the French Wikipedia indicates full-professionalism was introduced in 1993. I'll see if I can find some sourcing to support that. Jogurney ( talk) 20:17, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
Is this new American third division, National Independent Soccer Association, professional? They claim to be here, but I know we have a different definition of professional at Wikipedia. R96Skinner ( talk) 15:33, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
There is a question as to whether the minimum payments to the players in the W-league constitute a professional or semi professional league The minimum wage at the moment is over $16,000 (not including insurance and other benefits) https://www.espn.com/football/story/_/id/26916632/w-league-player-pay-increased-new-deal While this is less than the average wage in Australia it should be noted:
The question comes down to where do you draw the line between professional and semi-professional and how much is 'enough' to live on. My view is that it is a professional league and should be added to the list Playlet ( talk) 01:41, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
A few arguments have crystalised in my mind since I wrote the first post, so I hope you will indulge me one more post on the topic:
The gap between amateur and semi professional is clear. One you get paid nothing, and as soon as you get paid $1 you are semi professional
However the gap between the semi-professional and professional is a very grey area. As far as I can see there are 4 dividing lines that can be drawn (and no doubt others could find other lines beyond these four)
a) Receiving a payment above the poverty line of the country in question
b) Receiving a payment above the total unemployment benefits of the country in question
c) A payment above the average minimum wages for a contract equivalent to the length of the season (that is the amount you could expect to receive for a 4 month contract compared to a 4 month season)
d) A payment equivalent to an average ANNUAL wage, even though the season is considerably shorter than a full year
The W-league would fulfill conditions a)-c) but would fail on d)
I am willing to concede that if it were a men's competition that I would not be having this debate and would not be fighting for it to listed as a fully professional league.
However, women's sport as a whole has been suppressed over the years, and abandoned to the amateur ranks. Now that it is on the ascendancy, we should not be judging it as harshly and potentially applying one of the more lenient measures to judge both the W-league and more women's leagues around the world.
In short it is beyond belief that only 2 women's leagues in the world are considered professional, and if that is the case then perhaps we are measuring the women's leagues too harshly and we should be cutting them some slack.
Playlet (
talk) 13:28, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
So I was browsing the May 1959 article because my alternate history timeline is up to that part and I noticed that their was a date for when South Africa had a professional league with this link stating that professional football in South Africa started in 1959 with the National Football League. So I am asking if this is a notable enough reference that @ Mandsford: has put up. HawkAussie ( talk) 07:42, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
A user at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Artyom Alimchev has raised the question as to whether or not Russian Professional Football League is really fully pro. Questions and thoughts on that? ミラ P 02:14, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
– Ты поиграл в нескольких командах второго дивизиона. В какой было наиболее комфортно?
– Интересно было в дзержинском «Химике», где нас тренировал Владимир Казаков, известный бывший футболист московского «Торпедо». В Дзержинске не было денег, так он кормил футболистов со своих, возил на игры за свой счет. На тренировки на машине отвозил. Перед началом сезона мне понравилась его речь: «Мне без разницы, кто где играл: высшая лига, первая или вторая. У вас есть неделя – докажите, что вы игроки основного состава». При этом на тренировках мы вообще не бегали – набирали кондиции только через «физику». А когда он увидел, как я работаю с мячом, то пошел в «Адидас», купил маленький мяч и ежедневно давал мне задания.
Google Translate tells me that there was no money at the club and the coach (famous former footballer, Vladimir Kazakov) spent his own money feeding and driving the club's players to practice and matches. How could they be full-time professionals in those circumstances? Jogurney ( talk) 18:47, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
Just to get started, I am starting to compile a list of players that have only played in the third tier of Russian football and I can see that this is going to be one long list of players. The list so far is over here. HawkAussie ( talk) 02:39, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
So either the rules for the "pro football list" should be reassessed to include the "level check," than this league randomly be down from the list.
IMO the criterion about professionalism must be tightened. Regardless the discussed club pro or not, the 3rd tier itself cannot possibly be presumed notable. Staszek Lem ( talk) 20:34, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 25 | ← | Archive 29 | Archive 30 | Archive 31 | Archive 32 | Archive 33 | → | Archive 35 |
There is one source cited for the full-professionalism of this league (from the league itself), but my reading of it is that the league's aspiration was to be fully-pro, not that the league actually achieved it. I've found a few articles which cast strong doubts on the league's status as anything but part-time professional. The national football team manager, Dennis Lawrence, disputes the full professionalism of the league in a July 2019 article. Former national team goalkeeper, Shaka Hislop, commented on the league's part-time status in a September 2008 blog posting. Another point of interest is Hislop's claim (which appears fairly consistent with the source cited on this page) about the league's player salaries averaging USD 10,000 compares unfavorably to entry level school teacher salaries at the International School of the Port of Spain. If league players earn significantly less than entry level school teachers, it suggests that they are not full-time players as they would need other sources of income to supplement their playing wages. I think it's time to remove TT Pro League from the FPL ranks until we find better sourcing that demonstrates it is indeed a fully-pro league. Jogurney ( talk) 13:24, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
I have been informed that the Scottish Football League First Division; the second level of Scottish football prior to the 2013 revamp of the Scottish pyramid, should be considered a previous name for the current Scottish Championship, thus making it a fully professional league. Might I suggest that a note be added to the Scottish Championship section to reflect this, and to prevent any confusion between the Scottish First Division, a professional league by notability standards, and the Scottish League One, which does not meet the Professional standards and would therefore not count toward a players notability?
-- Curt内蒙 ( talk) 19:48, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
I came across am archived discussion regarding the professionalism of the Turkish 1. Lig, ( link). It seems that it was agreed to be put on the list. Also, I came across a similar discussions about the Lithuanian A Lyga as well as the Costa Rican Primera Division ( link 1 and link 2) that seemed to reach the same conclusion. Would it be okay to put all (or one) of these leagues on the list? Thanks, Das osmnezz ( talk) 18:46, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
What is the word with the Girabola, Yemeni League and the Zimbabwe Premier Soccer League as their has been no word of whenever these leagues are now professional or not. HawkAussie ( talk) 02:07, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
On an unrelated note, what is the status of the National Independent Soccer Association, the new USSF sanctioned league? There have been concerns in the past about prior American leagues and I wasn't sure what the consensus was for this one. Jay eyem ( talk) 22:43, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
I was improving Roland Storme and came across a KW article (it requires free registration with the site unfortunately) which describes the Belgian First Division as not being fully professional prior to 1960 (a top player on the league's top club had to work during the day and train with his football club at night). Should we set a start date for full professionalism at 1960? I suspect it wasn't yet fully-pro by 1960, but according to the article it certainly wasn't before that time. Jogurney ( talk) 05:12, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
Is there any link to see if these two leagues are professional or not as in the article page, it says that they are a professional league and it's partly support with this link here and here which both mention Thai League 2 as professional but not League 3. But I feel like their are probably better references out there stating the professional status of League 2. HawkAussie ( talk) 05:59, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
The Greek football league system has had a restructuring for 2019–20, with Super League Greece 2 coming in as the new second tier; with the Football League, Gamma Ethniki etc. moving down a tier each. Therefore, given the Super League (1) and Football League are listed as professional, shouldn't the Super League 2 be added? Perhaps a review of the Greek leagues at FPL is needed? R96Skinner ( talk) 17:21, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
I came across an Ouest France article which indicates Guingamp did not become a fully professional club until 1984, despite being in Ligue 2 since 1977. Should we set a start date for the league's full professionalism at 1984? It's possible that other Ligue 2 clubs became fully-professional after 1984, but certainly it brings into doubt whether the league was fully-pro prior to 1984. Jogurney ( talk) 20:12, 2 October 2019 (UTC) The Ligue 2 article in the French Wikipedia indicates full-professionalism was introduced in 1993. I'll see if I can find some sourcing to support that. Jogurney ( talk) 20:17, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
Is this new American third division, National Independent Soccer Association, professional? They claim to be here, but I know we have a different definition of professional at Wikipedia. R96Skinner ( talk) 15:33, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
There is a question as to whether the minimum payments to the players in the W-league constitute a professional or semi professional league The minimum wage at the moment is over $16,000 (not including insurance and other benefits) https://www.espn.com/football/story/_/id/26916632/w-league-player-pay-increased-new-deal While this is less than the average wage in Australia it should be noted:
The question comes down to where do you draw the line between professional and semi-professional and how much is 'enough' to live on. My view is that it is a professional league and should be added to the list Playlet ( talk) 01:41, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
A few arguments have crystalised in my mind since I wrote the first post, so I hope you will indulge me one more post on the topic:
The gap between amateur and semi professional is clear. One you get paid nothing, and as soon as you get paid $1 you are semi professional
However the gap between the semi-professional and professional is a very grey area. As far as I can see there are 4 dividing lines that can be drawn (and no doubt others could find other lines beyond these four)
a) Receiving a payment above the poverty line of the country in question
b) Receiving a payment above the total unemployment benefits of the country in question
c) A payment above the average minimum wages for a contract equivalent to the length of the season (that is the amount you could expect to receive for a 4 month contract compared to a 4 month season)
d) A payment equivalent to an average ANNUAL wage, even though the season is considerably shorter than a full year
The W-league would fulfill conditions a)-c) but would fail on d)
I am willing to concede that if it were a men's competition that I would not be having this debate and would not be fighting for it to listed as a fully professional league.
However, women's sport as a whole has been suppressed over the years, and abandoned to the amateur ranks. Now that it is on the ascendancy, we should not be judging it as harshly and potentially applying one of the more lenient measures to judge both the W-league and more women's leagues around the world.
In short it is beyond belief that only 2 women's leagues in the world are considered professional, and if that is the case then perhaps we are measuring the women's leagues too harshly and we should be cutting them some slack.
Playlet (
talk) 13:28, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
So I was browsing the May 1959 article because my alternate history timeline is up to that part and I noticed that their was a date for when South Africa had a professional league with this link stating that professional football in South Africa started in 1959 with the National Football League. So I am asking if this is a notable enough reference that @ Mandsford: has put up. HawkAussie ( talk) 07:42, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
A user at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Artyom Alimchev has raised the question as to whether or not Russian Professional Football League is really fully pro. Questions and thoughts on that? ミラ P 02:14, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
– Ты поиграл в нескольких командах второго дивизиона. В какой было наиболее комфортно?
– Интересно было в дзержинском «Химике», где нас тренировал Владимир Казаков, известный бывший футболист московского «Торпедо». В Дзержинске не было денег, так он кормил футболистов со своих, возил на игры за свой счет. На тренировки на машине отвозил. Перед началом сезона мне понравилась его речь: «Мне без разницы, кто где играл: высшая лига, первая или вторая. У вас есть неделя – докажите, что вы игроки основного состава». При этом на тренировках мы вообще не бегали – набирали кондиции только через «физику». А когда он увидел, как я работаю с мячом, то пошел в «Адидас», купил маленький мяч и ежедневно давал мне задания.
Google Translate tells me that there was no money at the club and the coach (famous former footballer, Vladimir Kazakov) spent his own money feeding and driving the club's players to practice and matches. How could they be full-time professionals in those circumstances? Jogurney ( talk) 18:47, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
Just to get started, I am starting to compile a list of players that have only played in the third tier of Russian football and I can see that this is going to be one long list of players. The list so far is over here. HawkAussie ( talk) 02:39, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
So either the rules for the "pro football list" should be reassessed to include the "level check," than this league randomly be down from the list.
IMO the criterion about professionalism must be tightened. Regardless the discussed club pro or not, the 3rd tier itself cannot possibly be presumed notable. Staszek Lem ( talk) 20:34, 22 November 2019 (UTC)