This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
If your WikiProject aims primarily to replace the more-or-less defunct "WikiProject Medical Conditions" than that should be your parent project. At least that old project is physically in existence. How can you reference a project as your parent, that does not even exist? -- John Gohde 20:04, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
I think Clinical medicine replaces Medical conditions, and it probably better described as a
heir than a bastard or an orphan. Medical conditions also has a much more limited scope, as it would—for example—not span seperate pages about diagnostic testing.
WikiProject Health Science is not very active; the whole use of "Health science" as a parent for all these medical issues might benefit from a serious review.
As stated on
John's talk page, this project is certainly not meant to clash with the new CAM WikiProject. If anything, I think cross-pollination is more to everyone's benefit than continuous bickering.
JFW |
T@lk 21:45, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
The Project page is rather boring and still lacks the stuff we discussed when
WikiDoc had just appeared on the scene. Is anybody willing to adapt that material for the project? I've reshaped this page to resemble our old
doctors' mess.
JFW |
T@lk 12:48, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
PS: WHERE ARE THE SURGEONS! The surgical side is atrophying! Can you imagine me writing cardiothoracic surgery and vascular surgery!
We should be pleased to have your surgical Midlander. What do you mean: ex-cardiac surgeon? Is he marketing artifical heart valves now? JFW | T@lk 09:05, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
for those of all of us interested in boxes, worth watching User:AlexR/Article_series_boxes e -- Erich gasboy 17:16, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
Hey guys - especially (you ksheka) - this is article of the week. should we put in an effort? -- Erich gasboy 23:12, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
FYI, I've nominated the article on acetaminophen for featured article. I did a heavy edit on the article a couple weeks or so ago, and it's held up, and I think the resulting article's good enough for a feature. So those of you interested, the discussion is here, but more importantly, make edits to the article if you think it needs some cleaning up! Ksheka 00:01, May 9, 2004 (UTC) I looked at it; nice job Alteripse 04:02, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
I added a link to the pregnancy category, and mentioned that it's pregnancy category B. My problem is that it's United States pregnancy category B. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a different category in Europe. Should I put in something like Pregnancy Category B ( AE)? Or is there some other terminology that's more appropriate? Ksheka 12:06, May 11, 2004 (UTC)
My understanding is that this classification is international - yayyy! I think a single article on Pharmaceutical pregnancy category would be an excellent idea... by the way has anyone looked at the pages drug, medication and pharmaceutical lately? urg e 03:19, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
I just looked at the rare diseases article which the Medicine article links to. Something is wrong with the definition: "An orphan or rare disease is generally considered to have a prevalence of less than 5% affected individuals in the society." A disease that affects even 1% of the people in a population is a very common disease, likely to be dealt with every week by a general practitioner. But what does "less than 5% affected individuals in the society" mean? I've never heard a formal definition of a "rare disease", but I would reserve the term rare for something seen once or twice or less in an average career of general practice. A disease like that would probably have a prevalence of 1 in 100,000 individuals but that definition still includes thousands of reported diseases. Any suggestions? Alteripse 04:02, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Discussion about the issue of naming conventions for medical topics is scattered throughout Wikipedia:
Because arguments for and against the use of medical terminology in article titles are not presented in a centralized fashion, it is difficult for those unfamiliar with the issue to make useful contributions to our cause. I suspect this decentralization is in part responsible for the lack of response JFW has received following his posts on the subject, and IMHO this is slowing our progress in assigning proper names to medical articles.
Wikipedia:Naming conventions has a list of conventions under consideration that we might want to make use of. I suggest we add Wikipedia:Naming conventions (medicine) to the list and carry out discussion on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (medicine). -- Diberri | Talk 22:11, May 10, 2004 (UTC)
Well, in order to move the article, the "
myocardial infarction" page needs to be empty. When I'm a sysop (in a few hours he he) I might be able to speed it up. So far responses have been minimal, and consensus is not forming in any form.
PS Diberri, to make a special "naming conventions" page for medicine is probably just a tiny bit over the top. I've raised it on the
Village pump, where I've had some minimal response.
JFW |
T@lk 23:41, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Hey Nunh-huh! err well that surgeon from MASH played by Alan Alda is one of my role models... as is the hologram from Star Trek, but er not sure if this is the right project.... -- e 23:29, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
(cut and paste from erich's list)
is the above statement utter rubbish or is it just me?
i can't recall reading any death definitions recently but its that little point about irreversibility that is pivotal... isn't it? e 01:50, 16 May 2004 (UTC) Unless you've been playing too many video games. Alteripse 16:39, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
thanks! e 02:15, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
mmmm while i'm at it... this is a page i'm planning to review carefully ( input most welcome of course). since it gives the kind of first aid advice that could be life (or neurone) saving i wonder if it should be given some prominince in the other pages* paniced wikipedians may go to when mum carks it in the living room and dad is calling the ambulance. flys in the face of the "wikipedia don't give medical advice yadda yadda" but hey worth an exception? e 02:15, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
ps *other pages = first aid, cardiac arrest, BLS, medical emergency
errr... had anybody else noticed
[1]??
e 02:50, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
There is a wide gap between lay terms and doctors' jargon when it comes to the naming of diseases and medical procedures. Several doctors on Wikipedia (see WikiProject Clinical medicine) feel that articles should be named by their scientific names, rather than the lay terminology ( myocardial infarction instead of heart attack).
Arguments:
See also
Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions#Medicine, where I've raised this point and received a deafening silence.
JFW |
T@lk 15:50, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Why not name it to the scientific name and have a redirect of the lay name? Rick K 22:40, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
RickK:
User:Ksheka tried moving
heart attack to
myocardial infarction but there was no consensus on the issue because "Wikipedia policy" was supposed to be that lay terminology is employed. My aim is to see if this should indeed be/remain policy, or that we can follow your suggestion and employ judicious redirecting. The
Wikiproject Clinical medicine policy is to keep pages aimed at the general readership, only escalating the difficulty to address technical issues (e.g. what
cellular molecules participate in the development of
atherosclerosis in patients who
smoke?)
JFW |
T@lk 09:10, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
It should work to have --using heart attack as an example-- an article in layman's terms in that location, and one in medical terms filed under myocardial infarction, each with reference to the other at the top of the article. (Is this discussion redundant?) I don't think redirecting is the answer here. ;Bear 01:01, 2004 May 11 (UTC)
If the question is lay man's terms, most medical topics are very difficult to describe solely in lay mans terms. Using myocardial infarction as an example, the article talks about metabolic demands of the myocardium, arrhythmias, thrombolysis, etc. To explain each of these terms using exclusively layman's english is, of course, possible. However, it'll make the article more unwieldly and difficult for anyone who knows the correct terminology from learning anything. This is, of course, solved with the use of proper terminology with judicious use of links to explain difficult concepts and to define medical terms. If someone wants to write a complete article in laymans terms on myocardial infarction, perhaps it should go in the simple english wikipedia instead. (Only half-joking here :-) ) Ksheka 19:07, May 17, 2004 (UTC)
The easy one: we should title the article with the title most commonly used by doctors and patients who have just been diagnosed by their doctors. We should redirect from more technically and less technically "sophisticated" names. As someone famous around here once said, "No one ever died from a redirect." I certainly intend to continue to title my medical articles with the name a doctor or sophisticated layman would use, but will try to redirect from anything more "lay" that seems likely to attract people. I don't think anybody can fault this (or at least wouldnt persuade me to change).
The much harder issue is deciding what level to write the article for. One obvious answer would be to write two articles: one for scientifically literate adults, and a second article at a much lower level designed for average folks. The problem would be what level to choose: 8th grade (average public reading level), 12th grade, or higher. I don't enjoy trying to intentionally oversimplify to an 8th grade level, nor does the idea of writing several articles for several different levels appeal to me.
I am becoming increasingly aware that I am writing my articles above a high school level. I am not writing for other specialists because they wouldnt look here for info on a disease, but I am trying putting enough detail in that primary physicians, other specialists, medical students, or other college educated people will understand. I was planning to ask for opinions on whether the articles are too advanced or not. Take a look at puberty, sexual differentiation, androgen insensitivity syndrome, and growth hormone deficiency and tell me if you think they are too detailed, too advanced, or don't explain enough. Two of them are replacements for articles that I thought had insufficient detail plus some errors. These were a lot of work if they don't match the needs and tastes here. Thanks. Alteripse 21:10, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
Over at WikiProject Evolutionary biology they have decided to put this box on the talk pages of articles belonging to the project. Something for this project? Fuelbottle | Talk 23:03, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
I've made a box at Template:CMedWikiProject
{{ CMedWikiProject}}
Ok well i've just been told by a Californian first year college student that disambiguating doctor is a "stupid idea"... so be before i upset anymore freshman (or more likely upset the same one again), does anybody else see the need for M.D. in addition to the doctorate page and the two pages now linked to from doctor? (Dr) e 06:49, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
If your WikiProject aims primarily to replace the more-or-less defunct "WikiProject Medical Conditions" than that should be your parent project. At least that old project is physically in existence. How can you reference a project as your parent, that does not even exist? -- John Gohde 20:04, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
I think Clinical medicine replaces Medical conditions, and it probably better described as a
heir than a bastard or an orphan. Medical conditions also has a much more limited scope, as it would—for example—not span seperate pages about diagnostic testing.
WikiProject Health Science is not very active; the whole use of "Health science" as a parent for all these medical issues might benefit from a serious review.
As stated on
John's talk page, this project is certainly not meant to clash with the new CAM WikiProject. If anything, I think cross-pollination is more to everyone's benefit than continuous bickering.
JFW |
T@lk 21:45, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
The Project page is rather boring and still lacks the stuff we discussed when
WikiDoc had just appeared on the scene. Is anybody willing to adapt that material for the project? I've reshaped this page to resemble our old
doctors' mess.
JFW |
T@lk 12:48, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
PS: WHERE ARE THE SURGEONS! The surgical side is atrophying! Can you imagine me writing cardiothoracic surgery and vascular surgery!
We should be pleased to have your surgical Midlander. What do you mean: ex-cardiac surgeon? Is he marketing artifical heart valves now? JFW | T@lk 09:05, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
for those of all of us interested in boxes, worth watching User:AlexR/Article_series_boxes e -- Erich gasboy 17:16, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
Hey guys - especially (you ksheka) - this is article of the week. should we put in an effort? -- Erich gasboy 23:12, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
FYI, I've nominated the article on acetaminophen for featured article. I did a heavy edit on the article a couple weeks or so ago, and it's held up, and I think the resulting article's good enough for a feature. So those of you interested, the discussion is here, but more importantly, make edits to the article if you think it needs some cleaning up! Ksheka 00:01, May 9, 2004 (UTC) I looked at it; nice job Alteripse 04:02, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
I added a link to the pregnancy category, and mentioned that it's pregnancy category B. My problem is that it's United States pregnancy category B. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a different category in Europe. Should I put in something like Pregnancy Category B ( AE)? Or is there some other terminology that's more appropriate? Ksheka 12:06, May 11, 2004 (UTC)
My understanding is that this classification is international - yayyy! I think a single article on Pharmaceutical pregnancy category would be an excellent idea... by the way has anyone looked at the pages drug, medication and pharmaceutical lately? urg e 03:19, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
I just looked at the rare diseases article which the Medicine article links to. Something is wrong with the definition: "An orphan or rare disease is generally considered to have a prevalence of less than 5% affected individuals in the society." A disease that affects even 1% of the people in a population is a very common disease, likely to be dealt with every week by a general practitioner. But what does "less than 5% affected individuals in the society" mean? I've never heard a formal definition of a "rare disease", but I would reserve the term rare for something seen once or twice or less in an average career of general practice. A disease like that would probably have a prevalence of 1 in 100,000 individuals but that definition still includes thousands of reported diseases. Any suggestions? Alteripse 04:02, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Discussion about the issue of naming conventions for medical topics is scattered throughout Wikipedia:
Because arguments for and against the use of medical terminology in article titles are not presented in a centralized fashion, it is difficult for those unfamiliar with the issue to make useful contributions to our cause. I suspect this decentralization is in part responsible for the lack of response JFW has received following his posts on the subject, and IMHO this is slowing our progress in assigning proper names to medical articles.
Wikipedia:Naming conventions has a list of conventions under consideration that we might want to make use of. I suggest we add Wikipedia:Naming conventions (medicine) to the list and carry out discussion on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (medicine). -- Diberri | Talk 22:11, May 10, 2004 (UTC)
Well, in order to move the article, the "
myocardial infarction" page needs to be empty. When I'm a sysop (in a few hours he he) I might be able to speed it up. So far responses have been minimal, and consensus is not forming in any form.
PS Diberri, to make a special "naming conventions" page for medicine is probably just a tiny bit over the top. I've raised it on the
Village pump, where I've had some minimal response.
JFW |
T@lk 23:41, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Hey Nunh-huh! err well that surgeon from MASH played by Alan Alda is one of my role models... as is the hologram from Star Trek, but er not sure if this is the right project.... -- e 23:29, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
(cut and paste from erich's list)
is the above statement utter rubbish or is it just me?
i can't recall reading any death definitions recently but its that little point about irreversibility that is pivotal... isn't it? e 01:50, 16 May 2004 (UTC) Unless you've been playing too many video games. Alteripse 16:39, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
thanks! e 02:15, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
mmmm while i'm at it... this is a page i'm planning to review carefully ( input most welcome of course). since it gives the kind of first aid advice that could be life (or neurone) saving i wonder if it should be given some prominince in the other pages* paniced wikipedians may go to when mum carks it in the living room and dad is calling the ambulance. flys in the face of the "wikipedia don't give medical advice yadda yadda" but hey worth an exception? e 02:15, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
ps *other pages = first aid, cardiac arrest, BLS, medical emergency
errr... had anybody else noticed
[1]??
e 02:50, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
There is a wide gap between lay terms and doctors' jargon when it comes to the naming of diseases and medical procedures. Several doctors on Wikipedia (see WikiProject Clinical medicine) feel that articles should be named by their scientific names, rather than the lay terminology ( myocardial infarction instead of heart attack).
Arguments:
See also
Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions#Medicine, where I've raised this point and received a deafening silence.
JFW |
T@lk 15:50, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Why not name it to the scientific name and have a redirect of the lay name? Rick K 22:40, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
RickK:
User:Ksheka tried moving
heart attack to
myocardial infarction but there was no consensus on the issue because "Wikipedia policy" was supposed to be that lay terminology is employed. My aim is to see if this should indeed be/remain policy, or that we can follow your suggestion and employ judicious redirecting. The
Wikiproject Clinical medicine policy is to keep pages aimed at the general readership, only escalating the difficulty to address technical issues (e.g. what
cellular molecules participate in the development of
atherosclerosis in patients who
smoke?)
JFW |
T@lk 09:10, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
It should work to have --using heart attack as an example-- an article in layman's terms in that location, and one in medical terms filed under myocardial infarction, each with reference to the other at the top of the article. (Is this discussion redundant?) I don't think redirecting is the answer here. ;Bear 01:01, 2004 May 11 (UTC)
If the question is lay man's terms, most medical topics are very difficult to describe solely in lay mans terms. Using myocardial infarction as an example, the article talks about metabolic demands of the myocardium, arrhythmias, thrombolysis, etc. To explain each of these terms using exclusively layman's english is, of course, possible. However, it'll make the article more unwieldly and difficult for anyone who knows the correct terminology from learning anything. This is, of course, solved with the use of proper terminology with judicious use of links to explain difficult concepts and to define medical terms. If someone wants to write a complete article in laymans terms on myocardial infarction, perhaps it should go in the simple english wikipedia instead. (Only half-joking here :-) ) Ksheka 19:07, May 17, 2004 (UTC)
The easy one: we should title the article with the title most commonly used by doctors and patients who have just been diagnosed by their doctors. We should redirect from more technically and less technically "sophisticated" names. As someone famous around here once said, "No one ever died from a redirect." I certainly intend to continue to title my medical articles with the name a doctor or sophisticated layman would use, but will try to redirect from anything more "lay" that seems likely to attract people. I don't think anybody can fault this (or at least wouldnt persuade me to change).
The much harder issue is deciding what level to write the article for. One obvious answer would be to write two articles: one for scientifically literate adults, and a second article at a much lower level designed for average folks. The problem would be what level to choose: 8th grade (average public reading level), 12th grade, or higher. I don't enjoy trying to intentionally oversimplify to an 8th grade level, nor does the idea of writing several articles for several different levels appeal to me.
I am becoming increasingly aware that I am writing my articles above a high school level. I am not writing for other specialists because they wouldnt look here for info on a disease, but I am trying putting enough detail in that primary physicians, other specialists, medical students, or other college educated people will understand. I was planning to ask for opinions on whether the articles are too advanced or not. Take a look at puberty, sexual differentiation, androgen insensitivity syndrome, and growth hormone deficiency and tell me if you think they are too detailed, too advanced, or don't explain enough. Two of them are replacements for articles that I thought had insufficient detail plus some errors. These were a lot of work if they don't match the needs and tastes here. Thanks. Alteripse 21:10, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
Over at WikiProject Evolutionary biology they have decided to put this box on the talk pages of articles belonging to the project. Something for this project? Fuelbottle | Talk 23:03, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
I've made a box at Template:CMedWikiProject
{{ CMedWikiProject}}
Ok well i've just been told by a Californian first year college student that disambiguating doctor is a "stupid idea"... so be before i upset anymore freshman (or more likely upset the same one again), does anybody else see the need for M.D. in addition to the doctorate page and the two pages now linked to from doctor? (Dr) e 06:49, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |