It would probably help if the complaint was reworded in neutral language - the word censorship lights up the POV-pusher radar like nothing else and as presented this is more an example of begging the question than of a substantive and fixable dispute. Given that, it came as no surprise at all to discover that the " WP:EL compliant sources" turn out to include such patently uncompliant sources as blogs, and the images turn out to be unfree. Just zis Guy you know? 18:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
The issue here seems to be that certain parties are refusing mediation. The issue of how many links and whether to have links could be easily mediated, but parties are refusing to have anything to do with it, etc. I don't think that ArbCom is the solution to this debate, but if the involved parties want an official ruling on how this should be done, so be it. If the case isn't accepted, mediation can continue as long as it is wanted. -- Keitei ( talk) 21:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Note that it is quite alright to take things off-wiki for a bit, especially in sensitive situations like mediation where a wrong word in the wrong place can have unintended consequences. This is why mediation has often traditionally been discrete, and things were taken off-wiki rather quickly when tempers got a little heated. At least, that's what I learned when I started.
I don't know whether this is highly relevant, but I stopped working on Wikipedia because Barberio was so impossible to collaborate with; he's stubborn, and simply will not compromise. It's his way, or the high-way. This attribute of his (his inability to co-operate in a collegial fashion) may be at work here too. If anyone wants more, please email me - I don't read my talk page here, and only dropped by to fix an error I noticed in Lotus 38. Noel (talk) 20:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I was the mediator for the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict Mediation Cabal case, and was dismissed by Barberio's request.
I am not a participant in the conflict, but, since serious accusations were made agaist me, I feel that I have to participate in the arbitration, to either accept responsibility if they prove right and conflict is determined to be my fault, or to clean my name if not.
Specifically, according to his complaint [1], Barberio accused me of:
I will explain the course of mediation and respond each of the claims.
When taking this case, I expected it to be particularly difficult, due to extreme amount of controversy and heated debates about the ongoing conflict, and due to large number of participants (6 were listed in the mediation). Therefore, considering lack of consensus in previous discussions, I took the approach of finding a rough compromise which all parties can be convinced to accept, and then refining it. Initially one of the parties sugested inclusion of a large number of links, and other preferred not to include them. The obvious compromise was to select a few links that are compliant to the policies and can be accepted by all parties.
The mediation started with Cerejota's suggestion to reduce number of links of two per side of the conflict
[2]. This was followed by some discussions, and I stated that I find this to be a good compromise, and asked if anyone has objections. Later, Barberio asked for that links to be marked by some kind of disclaimer
[3]. AdamKesher disagreed with that (
[4]), but, shortly, Barberio suggested
Template:Unverifiable-external-links to be placed above these links. I noted that disclaimers aren't generally necessary, but if Barberio still thinks more warning is needed, I have no objections
[5].
AdamKesher added the template to the page himself.
At this point (July 30), it seemed that the compromise is reached, or, at least, nearly reached, since both editors suggested and implemented the same. However, in the meantime one of the participants, Denis Diderot, constantly removed the links, and ignored both Adam's and my requests to take part in mediation. During discussion about another case with Kylu, one of the Mediation Cabal coordinators, I asked her to help convince that user to join the mediation. She noticed that he heavily violated 3RR (which I overlooked), but, since that was for mediation, didn't block him and asked to join. Finally, after some convincing, at July 30 Denis joined the case and made a statement, explaining his view on the subject [6]. Since we were alredy close to a consensus, I attempted to explain him the reasons to include some links [7], and convince him to agree to some compromise. Considering other criticism, I suggested him to propose changes. Also, in his statement he made direct quotations from the policy, but skipped some details. To prevent other parties from getting suspicious towards him, and avoid cluttering of the already long page, I restored the citations right in his comment, since most people I know on Wikipedia find minor corrections in their comments acceptable (and I changed only policy citation and not a single of his words), and informed him about that. [8].
The discussion went on for a while, but at July 31 AdamKesher noticed that Barberio's template was considered for deletion [9]. Barberio shortly stated that the only way he could accept inclusion of these links was with this warning [10]. At the same time he added himself as a participant in the dispute [11]. Discussion between participants went for some time further, when Denis stated he didn't think that it is acceptable to edit others' comments [12]. Barberio shortly came to my user talk page and asked me not to edit others' comments [13]. I replied as soon as possible, explaining that I did only correct a citation, and, upon finding out that Denis didn't like it, immediately reverted my action [14] and apologized [15]. Today I admit that it might have been better to repeat the citations, but, however, don't consider it something notable, since it is acceptable for mediator to edit and refactor the page, and this edit didn't change neither the sense of the comment, nor a single of his words, and apologized. Furthermore, it was not Denis who complained about the edit, but rather another user, whose comments I didn't touch.
Surprisingly to me, Barberio called my reversion of my own actions "another breach of my role as mediator"
[16], and used this as a reason for a request to dismiss me from the case. I expected him to bring the charges on my talk page (and said I'll quit if some parties want it), or, at least, at the coordination desk. However, he decided neither to ask me to leave at good will, nor to bring the charges in the open, but rather to discuss it via IRC without informing me first, so I had no chance to respond to the accusations then.
Above I explained that I haven't acting as a judge and never attempted to enforce or decide something, but only suggested compromise options, and, later, just attepted to convince a newly joined party to accept some kind of compromise. I also explained some justification for the correction of citations in a comment, which might actually be a mistake, for which I apologized. However, the third charge changes my entire view on this matter.
Barberio accuses me, that, citing him, "Initialy, none of the people named in this were contacted or notified, and I've had to do so myself." [17]. I'll provide evidence that, opposite to his claims, every person listed in the conflict was informed about the mediation before I actually started it at July 26. Most of thm notification was done by AdamKesher, and, since this was purely a content dispute, I posted an invitation for everyone to join the mediation on the article's talk page. The initial mediation request [18] included five people: AdamKesher, Cerejota, Iorek85, Denis Diderot, and tasc.
So, all of the participants were informed of the mediation by July 26.
Despite it might fall out of scope of this arbitration, I don't exactly understand why Barberio used an off-wiki channel to enforce my dismissal, basing on false accusations, instead of just asking me to quit the case. However, I don't consider this a personal attack, since the second mediation attempt, by another mediator, completely inaffiliated with me, was effectively rejected as well. I have an impression ,which is just an impression, not even an opinion) that the actual reason was to halt mediation after it went not in the desired way (his template was considered for deletion). However, I'd like to mention that, in my opinion, damaging the reputation of someone who attempted to help resolve the dispute is not the best way to reach the desired form of some article.
After some sleep, I've looked again at all that crap on this case. Sorry if I offend anyone, but I feel like a fool. Just like we all were standing in front of the ArbCom and fighting with pillows over something nobody cares about.
Doesn't anyone feel like that as well? I've got no idea why in the world do we need to think about all these links at all; yeah, the RFAR game was funny, but let's not bother others with all this nonsense for no reason at all. Maybe it would be better if we all just send it all down the drain, shake hands, apologize for whatever one done and not done, forget it, and just voluntarily recuse ourselves from these articles' links and images for a few months. I know how it sounds, but, look, no one of us needs it - so why not just drop this down?
I've listened to and thought about CP/M and Iorek85's statements above. Though I still have serious concerns about the underlying reasons some people have been deleting this information and the methods they have used to do so, I've decided to trust CP/M's judgement about the approach of letting "admins block the reverters." Therefore, I will conditionally withdraw this request for arbitration, subject to two conditions:
If these conditions are met and this case is conditionally withdrawn, I would like to thank everyone here in advance for their consideration and comments in this case. If the peaceful solution proposed by CP/M does not prove to be effective, I will consider using the record of these statements at some point in the future. AdamKesher 13:40, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
"I don't belive I have anthing to apologise for. I will not be withdrawing my comments on the Mediation Cabal Coordination Desk"
It would probably help if the complaint was reworded in neutral language - the word censorship lights up the POV-pusher radar like nothing else and as presented this is more an example of begging the question than of a substantive and fixable dispute. Given that, it came as no surprise at all to discover that the " WP:EL compliant sources" turn out to include such patently uncompliant sources as blogs, and the images turn out to be unfree. Just zis Guy you know? 18:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
The issue here seems to be that certain parties are refusing mediation. The issue of how many links and whether to have links could be easily mediated, but parties are refusing to have anything to do with it, etc. I don't think that ArbCom is the solution to this debate, but if the involved parties want an official ruling on how this should be done, so be it. If the case isn't accepted, mediation can continue as long as it is wanted. -- Keitei ( talk) 21:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Note that it is quite alright to take things off-wiki for a bit, especially in sensitive situations like mediation where a wrong word in the wrong place can have unintended consequences. This is why mediation has often traditionally been discrete, and things were taken off-wiki rather quickly when tempers got a little heated. At least, that's what I learned when I started.
I don't know whether this is highly relevant, but I stopped working on Wikipedia because Barberio was so impossible to collaborate with; he's stubborn, and simply will not compromise. It's his way, or the high-way. This attribute of his (his inability to co-operate in a collegial fashion) may be at work here too. If anyone wants more, please email me - I don't read my talk page here, and only dropped by to fix an error I noticed in Lotus 38. Noel (talk) 20:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I was the mediator for the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict Mediation Cabal case, and was dismissed by Barberio's request.
I am not a participant in the conflict, but, since serious accusations were made agaist me, I feel that I have to participate in the arbitration, to either accept responsibility if they prove right and conflict is determined to be my fault, or to clean my name if not.
Specifically, according to his complaint [1], Barberio accused me of:
I will explain the course of mediation and respond each of the claims.
When taking this case, I expected it to be particularly difficult, due to extreme amount of controversy and heated debates about the ongoing conflict, and due to large number of participants (6 were listed in the mediation). Therefore, considering lack of consensus in previous discussions, I took the approach of finding a rough compromise which all parties can be convinced to accept, and then refining it. Initially one of the parties sugested inclusion of a large number of links, and other preferred not to include them. The obvious compromise was to select a few links that are compliant to the policies and can be accepted by all parties.
The mediation started with Cerejota's suggestion to reduce number of links of two per side of the conflict
[2]. This was followed by some discussions, and I stated that I find this to be a good compromise, and asked if anyone has objections. Later, Barberio asked for that links to be marked by some kind of disclaimer
[3]. AdamKesher disagreed with that (
[4]), but, shortly, Barberio suggested
Template:Unverifiable-external-links to be placed above these links. I noted that disclaimers aren't generally necessary, but if Barberio still thinks more warning is needed, I have no objections
[5].
AdamKesher added the template to the page himself.
At this point (July 30), it seemed that the compromise is reached, or, at least, nearly reached, since both editors suggested and implemented the same. However, in the meantime one of the participants, Denis Diderot, constantly removed the links, and ignored both Adam's and my requests to take part in mediation. During discussion about another case with Kylu, one of the Mediation Cabal coordinators, I asked her to help convince that user to join the mediation. She noticed that he heavily violated 3RR (which I overlooked), but, since that was for mediation, didn't block him and asked to join. Finally, after some convincing, at July 30 Denis joined the case and made a statement, explaining his view on the subject [6]. Since we were alredy close to a consensus, I attempted to explain him the reasons to include some links [7], and convince him to agree to some compromise. Considering other criticism, I suggested him to propose changes. Also, in his statement he made direct quotations from the policy, but skipped some details. To prevent other parties from getting suspicious towards him, and avoid cluttering of the already long page, I restored the citations right in his comment, since most people I know on Wikipedia find minor corrections in their comments acceptable (and I changed only policy citation and not a single of his words), and informed him about that. [8].
The discussion went on for a while, but at July 31 AdamKesher noticed that Barberio's template was considered for deletion [9]. Barberio shortly stated that the only way he could accept inclusion of these links was with this warning [10]. At the same time he added himself as a participant in the dispute [11]. Discussion between participants went for some time further, when Denis stated he didn't think that it is acceptable to edit others' comments [12]. Barberio shortly came to my user talk page and asked me not to edit others' comments [13]. I replied as soon as possible, explaining that I did only correct a citation, and, upon finding out that Denis didn't like it, immediately reverted my action [14] and apologized [15]. Today I admit that it might have been better to repeat the citations, but, however, don't consider it something notable, since it is acceptable for mediator to edit and refactor the page, and this edit didn't change neither the sense of the comment, nor a single of his words, and apologized. Furthermore, it was not Denis who complained about the edit, but rather another user, whose comments I didn't touch.
Surprisingly to me, Barberio called my reversion of my own actions "another breach of my role as mediator"
[16], and used this as a reason for a request to dismiss me from the case. I expected him to bring the charges on my talk page (and said I'll quit if some parties want it), or, at least, at the coordination desk. However, he decided neither to ask me to leave at good will, nor to bring the charges in the open, but rather to discuss it via IRC without informing me first, so I had no chance to respond to the accusations then.
Above I explained that I haven't acting as a judge and never attempted to enforce or decide something, but only suggested compromise options, and, later, just attepted to convince a newly joined party to accept some kind of compromise. I also explained some justification for the correction of citations in a comment, which might actually be a mistake, for which I apologized. However, the third charge changes my entire view on this matter.
Barberio accuses me, that, citing him, "Initialy, none of the people named in this were contacted or notified, and I've had to do so myself." [17]. I'll provide evidence that, opposite to his claims, every person listed in the conflict was informed about the mediation before I actually started it at July 26. Most of thm notification was done by AdamKesher, and, since this was purely a content dispute, I posted an invitation for everyone to join the mediation on the article's talk page. The initial mediation request [18] included five people: AdamKesher, Cerejota, Iorek85, Denis Diderot, and tasc.
So, all of the participants were informed of the mediation by July 26.
Despite it might fall out of scope of this arbitration, I don't exactly understand why Barberio used an off-wiki channel to enforce my dismissal, basing on false accusations, instead of just asking me to quit the case. However, I don't consider this a personal attack, since the second mediation attempt, by another mediator, completely inaffiliated with me, was effectively rejected as well. I have an impression ,which is just an impression, not even an opinion) that the actual reason was to halt mediation after it went not in the desired way (his template was considered for deletion). However, I'd like to mention that, in my opinion, damaging the reputation of someone who attempted to help resolve the dispute is not the best way to reach the desired form of some article.
After some sleep, I've looked again at all that crap on this case. Sorry if I offend anyone, but I feel like a fool. Just like we all were standing in front of the ArbCom and fighting with pillows over something nobody cares about.
Doesn't anyone feel like that as well? I've got no idea why in the world do we need to think about all these links at all; yeah, the RFAR game was funny, but let's not bother others with all this nonsense for no reason at all. Maybe it would be better if we all just send it all down the drain, shake hands, apologize for whatever one done and not done, forget it, and just voluntarily recuse ourselves from these articles' links and images for a few months. I know how it sounds, but, look, no one of us needs it - so why not just drop this down?
I've listened to and thought about CP/M and Iorek85's statements above. Though I still have serious concerns about the underlying reasons some people have been deleting this information and the methods they have used to do so, I've decided to trust CP/M's judgement about the approach of letting "admins block the reverters." Therefore, I will conditionally withdraw this request for arbitration, subject to two conditions:
If these conditions are met and this case is conditionally withdrawn, I would like to thank everyone here in advance for their consideration and comments in this case. If the peaceful solution proposed by CP/M does not prove to be effective, I will consider using the record of these statements at some point in the future. AdamKesher 13:40, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
"I don't belive I have anthing to apologise for. I will not be withdrawing my comments on the Mediation Cabal Coordination Desk"