There is currently strong debate over the concept of spinouts (per WP:SPINOUT) from articles on works of fiction that describe one or more fictional elements (characters, setting, etc.) without having secondary sources. This is likely a crux of the "inclusionist vs deletionist" issue that has been going on for some time, and achieving some consensus on it may help to defuse this a bit.
There are several relevant policies and guidelines, these are likely not all that apply but are key points in current discussion:
Now, while we can go to the policies and guidelines all day long and argue the issue back and forth, that is not getting anywhere: the current policies and guidelines are conflicting and both support and prevent the use of spinouts. Thus, it seems it is necessary to get a larger consensus on this aspect, considering what the current practices are and where the encyclopedia should go. (This latter point is admittedly a huge issue.) Even what exactly are current practices are questionable, depending on what areas of WP that an editor watches.
There is also a side argument that if spinouts are allowed, there should be restrictions on what those spinouts can contain. A complete allowance for any spinout, which could ultimately include articles for every major, minor, and one-time character, every episode and chapter, every alien species, magic spell, or plot element, is obviously not acceptable, based on the number of individual articles that are merged or deleted through AFD. However, when talking about lists of such elements, there's even questions of where the line is drawn as to being relevant to the show and being fan information that shouldn't be on WP; it is proposed a secondary guideline to WP:FICT be created to provide specific guidance on what content in spinouts of non-notable fictional elements are acceptable. It is agreed, however, that any such spinout needs to meet all other policies and guidelines (V/NOR/NPOV/UNDUE, etc.), otherwise, you have a mess of in-universe writing that needs to be removed. It should be assumed that when spinouts are mentioned, the quality of the article should be considered as meeting all WP standards, so the primary issue of concern is the appropriateness of the content.
There have been spinout lists and articles on fictional elements that have shown notability through secondary sources, as demonstrated through Featured Articles and Good Articles. However, the crux of the problem here is when no sources outside of those primary to the work can be used to support the spinouts.
So the question for this RFC is simple: Are spinouts of fictional elements that lack any real-world, secondary sources, appropriate for Wikipedia? This question should be answered considering policy and guidelines, and also considering the current processes for how such articles are deleted, and what effects may happen should we go to lax in allowing spinouts or too restrictive in preventing them. This is a !vote, but only to see if consensus can be established from a larger group of concerned editors. The result of this discussion will affect the inclusion of a section within WP:FICT regarding spinouts. -- MASEM 15:24, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Addendum To clarify: there may be spinouts where some elements have notable coverage about them, or that the grouping itself has notability demonstrated by coverage (praised for the characters as a whole, but not individual characters); this RFC is not meant to address types of spinouts. The spinouts that are addressed here are those where both the overall summary of the article, and all individual elements, lack any notable coverage through secondary sources. -- MASEM 17:44, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Are spinouts of fictional elements that lack any real-world, secondary sources, appropriate for Wikipedia? No.
WP:PAPER states that "Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia; there is no practical limit to the number of topics it can cover, or the total amount of content, other than verifiability and the other points presented on this page. However, there is an important distinction between what technically can be done, and what reasonably should be done, which is covered in the Content section below." The "Content section below" includes WP:PLOT: "Wikipedia articles on published works (such as fictional stories) should contain real-world context and sourced analysis, offering detail on a work's development and historical significance, not solely a detailed summary of that work's plot."
WP:V states that "Material challenged or likely to be challenged, and all quotations, must be attributed to a reliable, published source." WP:PSTS states that "Secondary sources are accounts at least one step removed from an event. Secondary sources may draw on primary sources and other secondary sources to create a general overview; or to make analytic or synthetic claims" - sources real-world context and analysis are therefore secondary sources.
WP:PLOT refers to articles, not topics, so the often-used and incorrect argument that a spinout article is an article on the parent topic, not the spinout topic, is irrelevant. It is also argued that consensus supports the inclusion of some spinouts that the bare notability guidelines fail to include. I do not dispute that, but I do dispute that real-world, secondary sources cannot be found for those articles. I have suggested two guidelines which use real-world, secondary sources to demonstrate that some spinout articles are acceptable. Finally, article size is not a relevant concern. If an article reaches the recommended size limit for spinouts, but none of its sections have sufficient real-world, secondary sources to justify an article, then that article has given undue weight, either to the plot details of the fictional work, or to unverifiable statements. Such an article requires cleaning up, not spinning out.
To conclude: If an article is to contain verifiable "real-world context and sourced analysis", it must logically contain real-world, secondary sources. Spinouts that lack any real-world, secondary sources, cannot contain verifiable real-world context and sourced analysis. By policy, that is not appropriate. There is no reason within those policies that we cannot meet the consensus for inclusion of fictional articles without including these inappropriate ones.
Since other users are answering the question Masem should have asked, not the one he did, I shall too. That question is "Shouls some, all, or no spinouts be included?" I understand spinout to mean "an article created from the contents of another for reasons of size". Some spinouts should be included, many should not. We shouldn't say that they are included by default then give exceptions, since we cannot cover the undesirable articles with those exceptions without losing some desirable articles - in short, we please no-one, and harm the quality of the encyclopedia. Judging spinouts as part of the parent gives them this default inclusion. We should identify classes of spinout that are beneficial, explain why they are beneficial, and then extend notability to them; but require the others to demonstrate notability in the usual way. That way the beneficial articles are included and the harmful ones are excluded. Percy Snoodle ( talk) 10:08, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I tend to be a minimalist. In Wikipedia, we spend a lot of time talking about how to build articles, but the idea of keeping the database elegant, clean, and simple is lost on a lot of people. "More is more" is the mantra. I think more information is generally good, but at a certain point it can overwhelm. You end up with articles that are simply unreadable because of an "include everything "mentality. "Water can float or capsize a boat". I think this is one area where we can and should prevent a flood.
The key is *non-notable* spin-outs. Notable spin-outs are clearly acceptable. If an independent source has written a literary criticism of the settings in Tolkien's books, then an article about Middle-earth becomes notable. If an independent source discusses the characters of Star Wars, then an article about the Characters of Star Wars becomes notable. But if these details are only mentioned briefly in articles that discuss the fictional work as a whole, then the details of that fiction are not notable. Only the fiction itself is notable.
I'd go a step further. Isolating these details for the purpose of spinning off a new article constitutes original research. Yes, it might be verifiable. But it's wholly original to make observations about a character that has appeared in one or two video games. You're the one playing the game, reading the manual, and combining all the details to paint a picture of a character that nobody else has researched before you. It ceases to be original research if someone has identified that character or setting and written about it with a more specific focus. And when the person does that, not only does it give you reliable independent research to pass the WP:OR test... you also pass the notability test. Darth Vader is a good example of someone who deserves his own article.
If someone wants to go into detail about the fiction, then they should do it somewhere else. Not Wikipedia. And if an article is getting extraordinarily big because someone decided to do original research about a non-notable setting by watching every episode ... well, it's up to the editors to prune the article into a form that is readable. Yes, that means making educated assessments about what is notable enough to warrant inclusion, and what should be cut.
Just my two cents. I'd like to see WP:FICT tightened up substantially. Some of these articles are horrendous. Randomran ( talk) 22:12, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Some sub/SPINOUT/whatever articles do have real world context, but might not contain that information in the subarticle itself. This wording was once used on WP:FICT, and summarizes my own view on the matter:
Sub-articles are sometimes born for technical reasons of length or style. Even these articles need real-world information to prove their notability, but must rely on the parent article to provide some of this background material (due to said technical reasons). In these situations, the sub-article should be viewed as an extension of the parent article, and judged as if it were still a section of that article. Such sub-articles should clearly identify themselves as fictional elements of the parent work within the lead section, and editors should provide as much real-world content as possible.
We need a way to present this information in a guideline that is easy to understand and that doesn't give a free pass to anything and everything. We need examples. I do not think this is anything about "pro" or "anti" spinout articles, at least that is not the real issue here. -- Ned Scott 23:39, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
In addition to solidly seconding Ned Scott's sentiments above, I would like to point out that the primary responsibility of a Wikipedia editor is to serve its readers, not its rules. Readers are not well-served when the real information about a work of fiction is lost in an avalanche of plot details, and this is exactly what spinout articles help to prevent. I invite those reading this page to take a look at the lists of WP:GA and WP:FA fiction articles, and pick one arbitrarily to read. Now ask yourself: would merging this page's subarticles (lists of episodes, lists of characters, etc.) into it, and presenting all the content on the subject in one place, be a benefit to the reader's understanding of the subject, or a detriment to the reader's understanding of the subject?
It grates against every fiber of my personality to say this, but creating rules that are inconsistent on the surface (in this case, allowing the existence of a limited class of non-notable articles) in order to stay true to the underlying principles is a far better alternative than the reverse. As a final note for those who are fearing this exception will be used for the resurgence of Gundam or Pokemon-style collections of hundreds and hundreds of articles, rest assured, the community is intelligent enough to tell where "this list of recurring characters would be in the main page if the series weren't 15 seasons long" stops and "let's make a separate article on everyone who appeared in one episode" begins. -- erachima talk 06:08, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I largely agree with User:Percy Snoodle above. However, it is currently a matter of some practical necessity to allow spin-out list articles for fictional topics to provide coverage for characters, episodes and other such in-universe aspects. Percy, Gavin and others are quite right to note that these spin-outs would normally be proscribed by the rigorous application of our notability or verifiability standards, as well as our injunction against in-universe content { WP:PLOT). But those of us who desire more exacting encyclopedic standards (sometimes called deletionists) need to recognise that this is an important compromise with those who desire individual articles on every fictional character, episode, edition, etc... (which is what currently prevails and needs to be redressed). Thus: list spinouts of some in-universe elements are fine; further spinouts, however, should be very, very strongly discouraged. Eusebeus ( talk) 09:55, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia is organized in terms of articles. This applies on the levels of presentation, organization, maintenance, and process. The topic of an article should be clearly distinguished from that of other articles; further, it needs to fulfill the notability criteria, which means it has been covered in independent sources.
Applied to fiction, I do not think that this should differ. A fictional work should be covered in only one article, unless there are sufficient independent sources that discuss subaspects as separate topics, in detail. In this case, an article on that subaspect can be "spun out", giving a separate article that passes WP:N. Notability of a fictional topic is supposed to be understood as notable to the real world, not as notable within a fictional world. Non-notable subtopics should be covered (if at all) in the main article about the fictional work. This has some positive effects, since it encourages shortening the fictional content to its essentials.
Handling non-notable fictional topics in separate articles is not a technical problem ( WP:NOT#PAPER), but it is actually detrimental to the organization of the encyclopedia. For example, listing these (like other articles) on disambiguation pages, etc. gives these topics undue weight, and may distract the reader. Apparently it also encourages the inclusion of unencyclopedic content ( WP:NOT#PLOT).
Information that establishes notability, including independent sources, should be included directly in the article. (Given that a Wikipedia article can cover 10+ printed pages, that should always be possible in terms of size.) Further, one should remember that the article should actually be written from these independent sources, and only partially (if at all) from primary sources. It happens only too often with fictional topics that sources are listed, or for some reason assumed to exist, but not actually used (or maybe not actually useful) for the article's content. Independent sources are not supposed to be a coatrack for including fictional, in-universe information.
One can debate whether, for reasons of presentation, Wikipedia should contain a sort of "lesser class articles", between a "regular", fully notable article and just a subsection in another article. These "lesser class articles" would need to be treated and organized differently, and clearly distinguished from regular articles. ( Further elaboration and rationale here.) However, this is not current practice and would be a separate proposal, outside the current discussion.
In short, I think that spinout articles about fictional topics are in most cases not warranted. -- B. Wolterding ( talk) 14:16, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Generally, if a section is so large as to reach a point where splitting is considered, it should have multiple independent reputable sources supporting it. Take an instance where the only supporting reference for such a large section is the subject itself, a reference from the subject itself or a single source. It is by far most likely that the section should be mercilessly trimmed and/or rounded out with additional sources. In almost all cases (lists are a whole other animal and we're permitted to use common sense), if a section has grown large enough to justify an article split, there should be enough independent sources to support it's existance as separate article (if basic content policy like verifiability and appropriate presentation is being followed).
Addressing the vexatious and persistent claims about a lack of fiction sources, it is (to be exceedingly mild) a horrid misconception that secondary sources do not exist for such topics. The "theory" that secondary sources don't exist for such articles is utterly false. There are a ridiculous number of periodicals that cover television episodes and events that provide episode summaries, production information, critical reviews, and so on. That does not even cover all available references, but rather just the common easily available bulk of references. Even short-lived programs that fail to catch on receive this coverage. Any series that manages to survive for even a couple of seasons tends to receive further in-depth coverage and materials of its own. Any popular series has a mountain of additional references getting into fine details and exacting analysis. This misconception is one of the most noxiously dogged falsehoods in the whole notability discussion. Do plentiful secondary sources exist? Absolutely. The main bulk of pop-culture editors may not be willing to go digging through periodical stacks to appropriately reference the information, but that's a whole issue separate from the simple availability of sources. Vassyana ( talk) 14:55, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I proposed WP:PLOT. The intention was that it be used as a tool to improve articles away from being plot, rather than a tool to delete articles about plot. It has nothing to do with notability, never has, never will. It has to do with article content. WP:PLOT doesn't apply to this question, even though a vast number of people seem to assert it does. That's because an article can meet WP:PLOT and still not meet some people's interpretations of notability. The child of WP:PLOT is WP:WAF, a style guide telling you how to write an article about fiction. I also proposed the sentence about if an article topic has no third party sources, then Wikipedia should not have an article on it at WP:V. That's where notability stems from, and to further explain the issues behind notability, I wrote Wikipedia:Independent sources. That's remained an essay, and isn't in common usage although I think there are people who agree with the fundamental ideas. We need secondary sourcing to be able to comprehensively cover a topic. Now, this RFC asks, Are spinouts of fictional elements that lack any real-world, secondary sources, appropriate for Wikipedia? That's a tough question, because what is appropriate for Wikipedia is something Wikipedians can only answer through consensus. It means discussion, debate and give and take. It means judging the issue in context. It means the answer is different dependent on the article under discussion. It means the solution, is, has been and always will be, WP:AFD. This isn't a question one can answer one day, one time, for all eternity. That isn't the Wikipedia way. That's not we do, and it isn't what we are supposed to do. We have enough guidance. We have enough policies. If we can write articles that meet WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:NPOV and WP:NOT, isn't that enough? Shouldn't we respect our policies and ourselves enough that if we have to debate any more issues, we do it at AFD? Do we really need to load the dice, pre-judge the debate and say that some information has no value to us? Isn't that counter to the principles upon which Wikipedia was founded? That all information and all voices should be heard through the wiki process. Are we to close the door on some set of information? Or are we prepared to be a work in progress for perpetuity? Hiding T 16:38, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm saying this as a generality: I'm okay for spinouts that are technically non-notable to have articles they can't be adequately summarised in a parent article. As far as fiction goes, I'd say around 500 words of real-world information should suffice (balance the plot/production scales). For example, this or this would be suitable spinout articles (second one added as PiC is currently just notable), this wouldn't. Sceptre ( talk) 04:00, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Are spinouts of fictional elements that lack any real-world, secondary sources, appropriate for Wikipedia?
I would say no, not only for the technical reasons outlined by Percy Snoodle (above), but also because it would be a terrible disservice by the writers of this guideline to promote a dishonest and misleading opinion that says there is a category of article in Wikipedia that does not need real-world, secondary sources. New editors who refer to
WP:FICT as a source of guidance to create or add content to spinout articles will be ultimately doomed to disappointment when they see that, over the long term, their work will be cut out, merged or deleted because the content of articles without real-world, secondary sources is always going to be replaced by content that does during the lifecyle of a typical article.
At the start of an article's lifecycle, it might comprise of original research, then go on to be improved somewhat to the point where primary sources are cited to create a synthesis, and lastly to be replaced with real-world, secondary sources. However, if we say that spinouts don't need real-world, secondary sources, then they will never have to reach maturity, since the guideline says they can exist in a sort of perpetual limbo pending improvement. Attempts to encourage cleanup will have no impact on spinouts as currently defined, since they are exempt from the process of review, critisism and improvement: if real-world, secondary sources aren't required, then any attempt to edit, merge or delete these articles will be prevented from taking place.
At the time of writing, WP:FICT states:
In the light of my comments, this needs to be changed to a more honest statement that provides clear guidance:
In the past, I don't think the guidelines have been clear about this point: a lack of real-world content leads to an over reliance on in universe content. As a result, the lack of clear guidance has given rise to hundreds (if not thousands) of spinout articles lacking real-world, secondary sources, all of them doomed to substantial rewrites, merger or deletion over time. In the case of Dungeons & Dragons spinout articles, the content of these articles is written in the publishers house style, from a quasi-mythical in universe perspective, as if this was normal. Contibutors to these articles, such as Empire_of_Iuz are frustrated by and resentful of any attempt to effect cleanup, and are shocked to be told that articles based on fictional subjects should not be based on a regurgitation of the source materials, nor an over reliance on an in universe perspective for their writting style.
However, these are not the worst of the bunch. If you have a look at The 8 Most Needlessly Detailed Wikipedia Entries, you will see that many of the spinoff articles such as List of Ancient Jedi have since been merged. I see no consensus for the current draft on spinouts; on the contrary, I see editors actually trimming content, and merging or deleting articles that to not have real-world, secondary sources. -- Gavin Collins ( talk) 08:58, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I would argue that "non-notable" spinouts are of course reasonable of highly notable subjects. For example, we recently had a vote at AfD (and an appeal) about an article which provided the plot summary of For Better or For Worse. The consensus of the !votes was to keep it, but the closer of the appeal went against that due to WP:PLOT. The base topic is extremely notable for all sorts of reasons, and the best way to write the article was to break it into chunks. We should be trying to have the best encyclopedia we can. And that means having things well organized and complete. No book on FBoFW would ever skip a plot summary and nor should we. Neither should we insist that on notable topic be restricted in format by WP:N. Spin out articles are exactly that, a formating change for readability. Hobit ( talk) 16:29, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I'll make this short: Are spinouts of fictional elements that lack any real-world, secondary sources, appropriate for Wikipedia? - Yes in the beginning of an article's life because wikipedia is a work in progress and you never know what sources exist and who will show up to put some effort into an article. But no in the long run (could be months, could be years), at which point I prefer tagging and a merge proposal with a last call for sources and/or volunteers instead of immediate AfD. When it is clear from the beginning (common sense) that no real-world sources exist at all for an element, the only type of spinout for the element is IMO as a list (basic list or aggregate list), although the new parent article must be known to have a significant amount of real-world secondary sources then. (This would stop the recursive problem of non-notability.)
As for the mentioned policies, guidelines and essays: WP:NOT#PLOT (which I interpret as referring to pure plot summaries; analysis and synthesis through plot is covered by WP:OR) is central from which the interpretation of the others follow: If a section is spun out for SIZE, it must be more than a plot summary. Significant coverage in secondary sources (1.5 sources, and independent sources==NOTABILITY) help to balance plot summarizes against real-world information (development, marketing, reception, analysis, etc.) and should be present in each article as much as possible - drawing in-depth conclusions/analysis from plot to balance summaries constitutes ORIGINAL RESEARCH and can be removed immediately. Because Wikipedia is NOT#PAPER and can cover things of specialized encyclopedias, it can contain even the most obscure kinds of information as long as the points mentioned above are reasonably met. – sgeureka t• c 10:36, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
We need to concentrate of the content of the WP coverage of a subject, not on how the articles happen to be divided. The overall coverage of fiction is limited to fiction that is notable in the real world, and is shown by sources such as reviews, best-seller status, awards, and so on. The coverage should include real world aspects and fictional aspects. In general, a considerable amount of the coverage will be about the fiction itself. As an encyclopedia, we provide information that the users might want and reasonably expect to find in a 21st century comprehensive encyclopedia intended for a general world-wide English-reading audience of very wide range of education, sophistication, and interests. When people want to find information on fiction,they want to find information about the authorship, production, distribution, reception and influence certainly, but they probably primarily want to find information about the fiction itself. They want to find out the plot of the various portions, the trajectories of the characters, the environment and setting of the work. They may do so because they have no information on the work at all--as for the many video, manga, and games about which I have become informed as a result of working on Wikipedia, or about specifics to accompany their viewing, watching or playing, or to identify cultural references and quotations. A traditional purpose of an encyclopedia in acculturation, not just formal education--finding out about new cultures and civilizations. I should be able to come here and find out about the latest children's serials to discuss with a visiting 8 year old.
How we do it should depend on the amount of material and the importance of the work--always as limited by the resources available and the interests of Wikipedia editors. We should provide for people to find out what happened to specific characters without having to go through a list of episodes--and we should provide information about what happened to them all during any particular episode. There will be a good deal of duplication and alternative approaches. we're not paper. Even not being paper, we have to show some sense of discrimination--there is a difference between the running characters of a series, and the guest appearances, between the basic setting, and incidental elements. Some details belong properly in more specialized works--the distinction should be that if they are only of interest to devoted fans, they belong in a fan wiki. The detailed disputes over the of the names of the characters and places in Tolkien I expect to follow elsewhere--the general meaning and implication of all the names, a first reader of the work will expect to find here. I expect to find what the general nature of each individual monster in a game here; the details of just how to fight them, that would only concern me if I were to become a player, that can go elsewhere.
Most of the detail here is best sourced to the primary work. Some of it for major fiction will be increasingly covered in secondary sources also. There is considerable academic literature on Narnia, and an increasing amount on D&D; there will be progressively more as people to whom they are familiar become academics. The amount of true scholarship and perception in fan writing can be substantial--we ill learn to harvest it more adequately.
So in conclusion, individual section articles for notable fiction should be justified by the material they contain, and secondary sources for different details have nothing much to do with it. DGG ( talk) 02:14, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I tend to try to walk some kind of middle ground, though I do air for inclusion over exclusion per the faith that most articles I come across might have the possibility of notability. There is a limit to this, however, and I am more inclined to merge into lists or main article stuff that doesn't meet it, but not necessarily delete everything.
The problem is that Wikipedia is designed as an encyclopedia which means it must be able to give a good level of information to a general reader, but also enough for scholarly research, as encyclopedia are used for such research, even if it is only a first stop. WP:PAPER further states that we are not limited in size like a traditional encyclopedia.
That being said, there is a limit. As mentioned, WP:PLOT states that articles should not be listings of plot summaries. And in general, I agree. There are exceptions though for particularly complex plots or long and evolving series where a concise paragraph or three that FA articles strive for in plots actually harms the encyclopedic nature Wikipedia strives for because it reduces a complex plot that someone wanting to know about the series for casual or scholarly study would find lacking, but the length of the discussion is far to long to put in the main article. These cases may have no real-world impact at all. However, I would say that every case should be done individually. じん ない 04:44, 8 January 2009 (UTC) Addendum -- Articles on minor, cameo, on-time characters or weapons, locations, etc. that do not have real-world impact or a serious impact on the work of fiction itself I would are defiantly stuff that should not be in their own article. FE: Many of the Gundam titles have individual articles on most of the Gundam, regardless of whether the individual mecha was important to the series, let alone real-world connection. That kind of stuff is better done in a list, or if there are only a few, in the main article itself. じん ない 04:50, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Further Addendum WP:FICT goes beyond just saying that "Some spinout titles should be kept and some shouldn't." It also addressed sources, something that I have seen largely ignored by many here. It specifically addresses what are termed semi-independant sources, sources not from the primary source itself, but from works or people related to it in a manner as a database or expert. Wikipedia's WP:GNG and WP:N were designed to not allow such sources for non-fictional related works because conflict of interest of promotion or bias. Stuff like a DVD commentary or a fact book about the universe of a particular work do not, especially the latter, do either of those in general. In addition, their usage can help enhance the encyclopedic nature of Wikipedia by filling in creation concept ideas as those who work on the project themselves are, in almost every case, the most authoritative as to what motivated them, not some removed second-party. じん ない 07:50, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Any general comments or questions not reflecting an opinion should be added here.
There is currently strong debate over the concept of spinouts (per WP:SPINOUT) from articles on works of fiction that describe one or more fictional elements (characters, setting, etc.) without having secondary sources. This is likely a crux of the "inclusionist vs deletionist" issue that has been going on for some time, and achieving some consensus on it may help to defuse this a bit.
There are several relevant policies and guidelines, these are likely not all that apply but are key points in current discussion:
Now, while we can go to the policies and guidelines all day long and argue the issue back and forth, that is not getting anywhere: the current policies and guidelines are conflicting and both support and prevent the use of spinouts. Thus, it seems it is necessary to get a larger consensus on this aspect, considering what the current practices are and where the encyclopedia should go. (This latter point is admittedly a huge issue.) Even what exactly are current practices are questionable, depending on what areas of WP that an editor watches.
There is also a side argument that if spinouts are allowed, there should be restrictions on what those spinouts can contain. A complete allowance for any spinout, which could ultimately include articles for every major, minor, and one-time character, every episode and chapter, every alien species, magic spell, or plot element, is obviously not acceptable, based on the number of individual articles that are merged or deleted through AFD. However, when talking about lists of such elements, there's even questions of where the line is drawn as to being relevant to the show and being fan information that shouldn't be on WP; it is proposed a secondary guideline to WP:FICT be created to provide specific guidance on what content in spinouts of non-notable fictional elements are acceptable. It is agreed, however, that any such spinout needs to meet all other policies and guidelines (V/NOR/NPOV/UNDUE, etc.), otherwise, you have a mess of in-universe writing that needs to be removed. It should be assumed that when spinouts are mentioned, the quality of the article should be considered as meeting all WP standards, so the primary issue of concern is the appropriateness of the content.
There have been spinout lists and articles on fictional elements that have shown notability through secondary sources, as demonstrated through Featured Articles and Good Articles. However, the crux of the problem here is when no sources outside of those primary to the work can be used to support the spinouts.
So the question for this RFC is simple: Are spinouts of fictional elements that lack any real-world, secondary sources, appropriate for Wikipedia? This question should be answered considering policy and guidelines, and also considering the current processes for how such articles are deleted, and what effects may happen should we go to lax in allowing spinouts or too restrictive in preventing them. This is a !vote, but only to see if consensus can be established from a larger group of concerned editors. The result of this discussion will affect the inclusion of a section within WP:FICT regarding spinouts. -- MASEM 15:24, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Addendum To clarify: there may be spinouts where some elements have notable coverage about them, or that the grouping itself has notability demonstrated by coverage (praised for the characters as a whole, but not individual characters); this RFC is not meant to address types of spinouts. The spinouts that are addressed here are those where both the overall summary of the article, and all individual elements, lack any notable coverage through secondary sources. -- MASEM 17:44, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Are spinouts of fictional elements that lack any real-world, secondary sources, appropriate for Wikipedia? No.
WP:PAPER states that "Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia; there is no practical limit to the number of topics it can cover, or the total amount of content, other than verifiability and the other points presented on this page. However, there is an important distinction between what technically can be done, and what reasonably should be done, which is covered in the Content section below." The "Content section below" includes WP:PLOT: "Wikipedia articles on published works (such as fictional stories) should contain real-world context and sourced analysis, offering detail on a work's development and historical significance, not solely a detailed summary of that work's plot."
WP:V states that "Material challenged or likely to be challenged, and all quotations, must be attributed to a reliable, published source." WP:PSTS states that "Secondary sources are accounts at least one step removed from an event. Secondary sources may draw on primary sources and other secondary sources to create a general overview; or to make analytic or synthetic claims" - sources real-world context and analysis are therefore secondary sources.
WP:PLOT refers to articles, not topics, so the often-used and incorrect argument that a spinout article is an article on the parent topic, not the spinout topic, is irrelevant. It is also argued that consensus supports the inclusion of some spinouts that the bare notability guidelines fail to include. I do not dispute that, but I do dispute that real-world, secondary sources cannot be found for those articles. I have suggested two guidelines which use real-world, secondary sources to demonstrate that some spinout articles are acceptable. Finally, article size is not a relevant concern. If an article reaches the recommended size limit for spinouts, but none of its sections have sufficient real-world, secondary sources to justify an article, then that article has given undue weight, either to the plot details of the fictional work, or to unverifiable statements. Such an article requires cleaning up, not spinning out.
To conclude: If an article is to contain verifiable "real-world context and sourced analysis", it must logically contain real-world, secondary sources. Spinouts that lack any real-world, secondary sources, cannot contain verifiable real-world context and sourced analysis. By policy, that is not appropriate. There is no reason within those policies that we cannot meet the consensus for inclusion of fictional articles without including these inappropriate ones.
Since other users are answering the question Masem should have asked, not the one he did, I shall too. That question is "Shouls some, all, or no spinouts be included?" I understand spinout to mean "an article created from the contents of another for reasons of size". Some spinouts should be included, many should not. We shouldn't say that they are included by default then give exceptions, since we cannot cover the undesirable articles with those exceptions without losing some desirable articles - in short, we please no-one, and harm the quality of the encyclopedia. Judging spinouts as part of the parent gives them this default inclusion. We should identify classes of spinout that are beneficial, explain why they are beneficial, and then extend notability to them; but require the others to demonstrate notability in the usual way. That way the beneficial articles are included and the harmful ones are excluded. Percy Snoodle ( talk) 10:08, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I tend to be a minimalist. In Wikipedia, we spend a lot of time talking about how to build articles, but the idea of keeping the database elegant, clean, and simple is lost on a lot of people. "More is more" is the mantra. I think more information is generally good, but at a certain point it can overwhelm. You end up with articles that are simply unreadable because of an "include everything "mentality. "Water can float or capsize a boat". I think this is one area where we can and should prevent a flood.
The key is *non-notable* spin-outs. Notable spin-outs are clearly acceptable. If an independent source has written a literary criticism of the settings in Tolkien's books, then an article about Middle-earth becomes notable. If an independent source discusses the characters of Star Wars, then an article about the Characters of Star Wars becomes notable. But if these details are only mentioned briefly in articles that discuss the fictional work as a whole, then the details of that fiction are not notable. Only the fiction itself is notable.
I'd go a step further. Isolating these details for the purpose of spinning off a new article constitutes original research. Yes, it might be verifiable. But it's wholly original to make observations about a character that has appeared in one or two video games. You're the one playing the game, reading the manual, and combining all the details to paint a picture of a character that nobody else has researched before you. It ceases to be original research if someone has identified that character or setting and written about it with a more specific focus. And when the person does that, not only does it give you reliable independent research to pass the WP:OR test... you also pass the notability test. Darth Vader is a good example of someone who deserves his own article.
If someone wants to go into detail about the fiction, then they should do it somewhere else. Not Wikipedia. And if an article is getting extraordinarily big because someone decided to do original research about a non-notable setting by watching every episode ... well, it's up to the editors to prune the article into a form that is readable. Yes, that means making educated assessments about what is notable enough to warrant inclusion, and what should be cut.
Just my two cents. I'd like to see WP:FICT tightened up substantially. Some of these articles are horrendous. Randomran ( talk) 22:12, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Some sub/SPINOUT/whatever articles do have real world context, but might not contain that information in the subarticle itself. This wording was once used on WP:FICT, and summarizes my own view on the matter:
Sub-articles are sometimes born for technical reasons of length or style. Even these articles need real-world information to prove their notability, but must rely on the parent article to provide some of this background material (due to said technical reasons). In these situations, the sub-article should be viewed as an extension of the parent article, and judged as if it were still a section of that article. Such sub-articles should clearly identify themselves as fictional elements of the parent work within the lead section, and editors should provide as much real-world content as possible.
We need a way to present this information in a guideline that is easy to understand and that doesn't give a free pass to anything and everything. We need examples. I do not think this is anything about "pro" or "anti" spinout articles, at least that is not the real issue here. -- Ned Scott 23:39, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
In addition to solidly seconding Ned Scott's sentiments above, I would like to point out that the primary responsibility of a Wikipedia editor is to serve its readers, not its rules. Readers are not well-served when the real information about a work of fiction is lost in an avalanche of plot details, and this is exactly what spinout articles help to prevent. I invite those reading this page to take a look at the lists of WP:GA and WP:FA fiction articles, and pick one arbitrarily to read. Now ask yourself: would merging this page's subarticles (lists of episodes, lists of characters, etc.) into it, and presenting all the content on the subject in one place, be a benefit to the reader's understanding of the subject, or a detriment to the reader's understanding of the subject?
It grates against every fiber of my personality to say this, but creating rules that are inconsistent on the surface (in this case, allowing the existence of a limited class of non-notable articles) in order to stay true to the underlying principles is a far better alternative than the reverse. As a final note for those who are fearing this exception will be used for the resurgence of Gundam or Pokemon-style collections of hundreds and hundreds of articles, rest assured, the community is intelligent enough to tell where "this list of recurring characters would be in the main page if the series weren't 15 seasons long" stops and "let's make a separate article on everyone who appeared in one episode" begins. -- erachima talk 06:08, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I largely agree with User:Percy Snoodle above. However, it is currently a matter of some practical necessity to allow spin-out list articles for fictional topics to provide coverage for characters, episodes and other such in-universe aspects. Percy, Gavin and others are quite right to note that these spin-outs would normally be proscribed by the rigorous application of our notability or verifiability standards, as well as our injunction against in-universe content { WP:PLOT). But those of us who desire more exacting encyclopedic standards (sometimes called deletionists) need to recognise that this is an important compromise with those who desire individual articles on every fictional character, episode, edition, etc... (which is what currently prevails and needs to be redressed). Thus: list spinouts of some in-universe elements are fine; further spinouts, however, should be very, very strongly discouraged. Eusebeus ( talk) 09:55, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia is organized in terms of articles. This applies on the levels of presentation, organization, maintenance, and process. The topic of an article should be clearly distinguished from that of other articles; further, it needs to fulfill the notability criteria, which means it has been covered in independent sources.
Applied to fiction, I do not think that this should differ. A fictional work should be covered in only one article, unless there are sufficient independent sources that discuss subaspects as separate topics, in detail. In this case, an article on that subaspect can be "spun out", giving a separate article that passes WP:N. Notability of a fictional topic is supposed to be understood as notable to the real world, not as notable within a fictional world. Non-notable subtopics should be covered (if at all) in the main article about the fictional work. This has some positive effects, since it encourages shortening the fictional content to its essentials.
Handling non-notable fictional topics in separate articles is not a technical problem ( WP:NOT#PAPER), but it is actually detrimental to the organization of the encyclopedia. For example, listing these (like other articles) on disambiguation pages, etc. gives these topics undue weight, and may distract the reader. Apparently it also encourages the inclusion of unencyclopedic content ( WP:NOT#PLOT).
Information that establishes notability, including independent sources, should be included directly in the article. (Given that a Wikipedia article can cover 10+ printed pages, that should always be possible in terms of size.) Further, one should remember that the article should actually be written from these independent sources, and only partially (if at all) from primary sources. It happens only too often with fictional topics that sources are listed, or for some reason assumed to exist, but not actually used (or maybe not actually useful) for the article's content. Independent sources are not supposed to be a coatrack for including fictional, in-universe information.
One can debate whether, for reasons of presentation, Wikipedia should contain a sort of "lesser class articles", between a "regular", fully notable article and just a subsection in another article. These "lesser class articles" would need to be treated and organized differently, and clearly distinguished from regular articles. ( Further elaboration and rationale here.) However, this is not current practice and would be a separate proposal, outside the current discussion.
In short, I think that spinout articles about fictional topics are in most cases not warranted. -- B. Wolterding ( talk) 14:16, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Generally, if a section is so large as to reach a point where splitting is considered, it should have multiple independent reputable sources supporting it. Take an instance where the only supporting reference for such a large section is the subject itself, a reference from the subject itself or a single source. It is by far most likely that the section should be mercilessly trimmed and/or rounded out with additional sources. In almost all cases (lists are a whole other animal and we're permitted to use common sense), if a section has grown large enough to justify an article split, there should be enough independent sources to support it's existance as separate article (if basic content policy like verifiability and appropriate presentation is being followed).
Addressing the vexatious and persistent claims about a lack of fiction sources, it is (to be exceedingly mild) a horrid misconception that secondary sources do not exist for such topics. The "theory" that secondary sources don't exist for such articles is utterly false. There are a ridiculous number of periodicals that cover television episodes and events that provide episode summaries, production information, critical reviews, and so on. That does not even cover all available references, but rather just the common easily available bulk of references. Even short-lived programs that fail to catch on receive this coverage. Any series that manages to survive for even a couple of seasons tends to receive further in-depth coverage and materials of its own. Any popular series has a mountain of additional references getting into fine details and exacting analysis. This misconception is one of the most noxiously dogged falsehoods in the whole notability discussion. Do plentiful secondary sources exist? Absolutely. The main bulk of pop-culture editors may not be willing to go digging through periodical stacks to appropriately reference the information, but that's a whole issue separate from the simple availability of sources. Vassyana ( talk) 14:55, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I proposed WP:PLOT. The intention was that it be used as a tool to improve articles away from being plot, rather than a tool to delete articles about plot. It has nothing to do with notability, never has, never will. It has to do with article content. WP:PLOT doesn't apply to this question, even though a vast number of people seem to assert it does. That's because an article can meet WP:PLOT and still not meet some people's interpretations of notability. The child of WP:PLOT is WP:WAF, a style guide telling you how to write an article about fiction. I also proposed the sentence about if an article topic has no third party sources, then Wikipedia should not have an article on it at WP:V. That's where notability stems from, and to further explain the issues behind notability, I wrote Wikipedia:Independent sources. That's remained an essay, and isn't in common usage although I think there are people who agree with the fundamental ideas. We need secondary sourcing to be able to comprehensively cover a topic. Now, this RFC asks, Are spinouts of fictional elements that lack any real-world, secondary sources, appropriate for Wikipedia? That's a tough question, because what is appropriate for Wikipedia is something Wikipedians can only answer through consensus. It means discussion, debate and give and take. It means judging the issue in context. It means the answer is different dependent on the article under discussion. It means the solution, is, has been and always will be, WP:AFD. This isn't a question one can answer one day, one time, for all eternity. That isn't the Wikipedia way. That's not we do, and it isn't what we are supposed to do. We have enough guidance. We have enough policies. If we can write articles that meet WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:NPOV and WP:NOT, isn't that enough? Shouldn't we respect our policies and ourselves enough that if we have to debate any more issues, we do it at AFD? Do we really need to load the dice, pre-judge the debate and say that some information has no value to us? Isn't that counter to the principles upon which Wikipedia was founded? That all information and all voices should be heard through the wiki process. Are we to close the door on some set of information? Or are we prepared to be a work in progress for perpetuity? Hiding T 16:38, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm saying this as a generality: I'm okay for spinouts that are technically non-notable to have articles they can't be adequately summarised in a parent article. As far as fiction goes, I'd say around 500 words of real-world information should suffice (balance the plot/production scales). For example, this or this would be suitable spinout articles (second one added as PiC is currently just notable), this wouldn't. Sceptre ( talk) 04:00, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Are spinouts of fictional elements that lack any real-world, secondary sources, appropriate for Wikipedia?
I would say no, not only for the technical reasons outlined by Percy Snoodle (above), but also because it would be a terrible disservice by the writers of this guideline to promote a dishonest and misleading opinion that says there is a category of article in Wikipedia that does not need real-world, secondary sources. New editors who refer to
WP:FICT as a source of guidance to create or add content to spinout articles will be ultimately doomed to disappointment when they see that, over the long term, their work will be cut out, merged or deleted because the content of articles without real-world, secondary sources is always going to be replaced by content that does during the lifecyle of a typical article.
At the start of an article's lifecycle, it might comprise of original research, then go on to be improved somewhat to the point where primary sources are cited to create a synthesis, and lastly to be replaced with real-world, secondary sources. However, if we say that spinouts don't need real-world, secondary sources, then they will never have to reach maturity, since the guideline says they can exist in a sort of perpetual limbo pending improvement. Attempts to encourage cleanup will have no impact on spinouts as currently defined, since they are exempt from the process of review, critisism and improvement: if real-world, secondary sources aren't required, then any attempt to edit, merge or delete these articles will be prevented from taking place.
At the time of writing, WP:FICT states:
In the light of my comments, this needs to be changed to a more honest statement that provides clear guidance:
In the past, I don't think the guidelines have been clear about this point: a lack of real-world content leads to an over reliance on in universe content. As a result, the lack of clear guidance has given rise to hundreds (if not thousands) of spinout articles lacking real-world, secondary sources, all of them doomed to substantial rewrites, merger or deletion over time. In the case of Dungeons & Dragons spinout articles, the content of these articles is written in the publishers house style, from a quasi-mythical in universe perspective, as if this was normal. Contibutors to these articles, such as Empire_of_Iuz are frustrated by and resentful of any attempt to effect cleanup, and are shocked to be told that articles based on fictional subjects should not be based on a regurgitation of the source materials, nor an over reliance on an in universe perspective for their writting style.
However, these are not the worst of the bunch. If you have a look at The 8 Most Needlessly Detailed Wikipedia Entries, you will see that many of the spinoff articles such as List of Ancient Jedi have since been merged. I see no consensus for the current draft on spinouts; on the contrary, I see editors actually trimming content, and merging or deleting articles that to not have real-world, secondary sources. -- Gavin Collins ( talk) 08:58, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I would argue that "non-notable" spinouts are of course reasonable of highly notable subjects. For example, we recently had a vote at AfD (and an appeal) about an article which provided the plot summary of For Better or For Worse. The consensus of the !votes was to keep it, but the closer of the appeal went against that due to WP:PLOT. The base topic is extremely notable for all sorts of reasons, and the best way to write the article was to break it into chunks. We should be trying to have the best encyclopedia we can. And that means having things well organized and complete. No book on FBoFW would ever skip a plot summary and nor should we. Neither should we insist that on notable topic be restricted in format by WP:N. Spin out articles are exactly that, a formating change for readability. Hobit ( talk) 16:29, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I'll make this short: Are spinouts of fictional elements that lack any real-world, secondary sources, appropriate for Wikipedia? - Yes in the beginning of an article's life because wikipedia is a work in progress and you never know what sources exist and who will show up to put some effort into an article. But no in the long run (could be months, could be years), at which point I prefer tagging and a merge proposal with a last call for sources and/or volunteers instead of immediate AfD. When it is clear from the beginning (common sense) that no real-world sources exist at all for an element, the only type of spinout for the element is IMO as a list (basic list or aggregate list), although the new parent article must be known to have a significant amount of real-world secondary sources then. (This would stop the recursive problem of non-notability.)
As for the mentioned policies, guidelines and essays: WP:NOT#PLOT (which I interpret as referring to pure plot summaries; analysis and synthesis through plot is covered by WP:OR) is central from which the interpretation of the others follow: If a section is spun out for SIZE, it must be more than a plot summary. Significant coverage in secondary sources (1.5 sources, and independent sources==NOTABILITY) help to balance plot summarizes against real-world information (development, marketing, reception, analysis, etc.) and should be present in each article as much as possible - drawing in-depth conclusions/analysis from plot to balance summaries constitutes ORIGINAL RESEARCH and can be removed immediately. Because Wikipedia is NOT#PAPER and can cover things of specialized encyclopedias, it can contain even the most obscure kinds of information as long as the points mentioned above are reasonably met. – sgeureka t• c 10:36, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
We need to concentrate of the content of the WP coverage of a subject, not on how the articles happen to be divided. The overall coverage of fiction is limited to fiction that is notable in the real world, and is shown by sources such as reviews, best-seller status, awards, and so on. The coverage should include real world aspects and fictional aspects. In general, a considerable amount of the coverage will be about the fiction itself. As an encyclopedia, we provide information that the users might want and reasonably expect to find in a 21st century comprehensive encyclopedia intended for a general world-wide English-reading audience of very wide range of education, sophistication, and interests. When people want to find information on fiction,they want to find information about the authorship, production, distribution, reception and influence certainly, but they probably primarily want to find information about the fiction itself. They want to find out the plot of the various portions, the trajectories of the characters, the environment and setting of the work. They may do so because they have no information on the work at all--as for the many video, manga, and games about which I have become informed as a result of working on Wikipedia, or about specifics to accompany their viewing, watching or playing, or to identify cultural references and quotations. A traditional purpose of an encyclopedia in acculturation, not just formal education--finding out about new cultures and civilizations. I should be able to come here and find out about the latest children's serials to discuss with a visiting 8 year old.
How we do it should depend on the amount of material and the importance of the work--always as limited by the resources available and the interests of Wikipedia editors. We should provide for people to find out what happened to specific characters without having to go through a list of episodes--and we should provide information about what happened to them all during any particular episode. There will be a good deal of duplication and alternative approaches. we're not paper. Even not being paper, we have to show some sense of discrimination--there is a difference between the running characters of a series, and the guest appearances, between the basic setting, and incidental elements. Some details belong properly in more specialized works--the distinction should be that if they are only of interest to devoted fans, they belong in a fan wiki. The detailed disputes over the of the names of the characters and places in Tolkien I expect to follow elsewhere--the general meaning and implication of all the names, a first reader of the work will expect to find here. I expect to find what the general nature of each individual monster in a game here; the details of just how to fight them, that would only concern me if I were to become a player, that can go elsewhere.
Most of the detail here is best sourced to the primary work. Some of it for major fiction will be increasingly covered in secondary sources also. There is considerable academic literature on Narnia, and an increasing amount on D&D; there will be progressively more as people to whom they are familiar become academics. The amount of true scholarship and perception in fan writing can be substantial--we ill learn to harvest it more adequately.
So in conclusion, individual section articles for notable fiction should be justified by the material they contain, and secondary sources for different details have nothing much to do with it. DGG ( talk) 02:14, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I tend to try to walk some kind of middle ground, though I do air for inclusion over exclusion per the faith that most articles I come across might have the possibility of notability. There is a limit to this, however, and I am more inclined to merge into lists or main article stuff that doesn't meet it, but not necessarily delete everything.
The problem is that Wikipedia is designed as an encyclopedia which means it must be able to give a good level of information to a general reader, but also enough for scholarly research, as encyclopedia are used for such research, even if it is only a first stop. WP:PAPER further states that we are not limited in size like a traditional encyclopedia.
That being said, there is a limit. As mentioned, WP:PLOT states that articles should not be listings of plot summaries. And in general, I agree. There are exceptions though for particularly complex plots or long and evolving series where a concise paragraph or three that FA articles strive for in plots actually harms the encyclopedic nature Wikipedia strives for because it reduces a complex plot that someone wanting to know about the series for casual or scholarly study would find lacking, but the length of the discussion is far to long to put in the main article. These cases may have no real-world impact at all. However, I would say that every case should be done individually. じん ない 04:44, 8 January 2009 (UTC) Addendum -- Articles on minor, cameo, on-time characters or weapons, locations, etc. that do not have real-world impact or a serious impact on the work of fiction itself I would are defiantly stuff that should not be in their own article. FE: Many of the Gundam titles have individual articles on most of the Gundam, regardless of whether the individual mecha was important to the series, let alone real-world connection. That kind of stuff is better done in a list, or if there are only a few, in the main article itself. じん ない 04:50, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Further Addendum WP:FICT goes beyond just saying that "Some spinout titles should be kept and some shouldn't." It also addressed sources, something that I have seen largely ignored by many here. It specifically addresses what are termed semi-independant sources, sources not from the primary source itself, but from works or people related to it in a manner as a database or expert. Wikipedia's WP:GNG and WP:N were designed to not allow such sources for non-fictional related works because conflict of interest of promotion or bias. Stuff like a DVD commentary or a fact book about the universe of a particular work do not, especially the latter, do either of those in general. In addition, their usage can help enhance the encyclopedic nature of Wikipedia by filling in creation concept ideas as those who work on the project themselves are, in almost every case, the most authoritative as to what motivated them, not some removed second-party. じん ない 07:50, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Any general comments or questions not reflecting an opinion should be added here.