This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
It says "If this project gives equal validity to those who literally claim that the Earth is flat, or those who claim that the Holocaust never occurred" (so much for NPOV) We Holocaust Revisionists are often likened to those who said that the earth was flat. But just the reverse is true: It is the other side that acts like a Holy Inquisition, institutionalizing one viewpoint and punishing heretics. Remember: We only accepted that the earth is round after the debate was opened. And since then, the round-earth adherents have not needed false news laws, hate crimes laws, and libel or slander laws to protect the truthfulness of their view. Likewise, all we ask is that the Holocaust story either stand or fall according to the evidence -- or lack of it.
Saintrotter 3 March 2007
Please, try to see the truth
http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/intro/index.html
-The Church of Rome believed the earth was flat. -Jews believe 6 million died in gas chambers.
-The Church went as far as to outlaw any questioning of their official flat earth view. -Jews went as far as to outlaw any questioning of their official holocaust view.
-Galileo discovered that the earth is round and moves around the sun. -Revisionists discovered that the 6 million number was wrong and gas chambers did not exist.
-Galileo was persecuted for his discoveries. -Revisionists are persecuted for their discoveries.
If anyone is trying to say “the earth is flat”, it is certainly not those brave enough to question official dogmas.
Saintrotter 04:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
\\\\\ In my not-so-humble opinion, here go two things:
a) The best/only way to implement Wikipedia's NPOV policy would be something like this: "*According to* Source A, abc=ABC; *according to* Source B, xyz=rst; *according to* Source C, 2+2=5;"; and so on;
z) if the nazis had not exterminated I-don't-know-how-many jews, the world as we know it today would be less bad than it is?
Most sincerely,
KSM-2501ZX, IP address:= 200.143.1.33 03:56, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
To maintain NPOV I believe that there is a fundamental flaw in using a Subject's own publicity material within articles, a publicity photograph for example portrays a perfect POV image of the subject with the context, setting, lighting and demeanour that the Subject wishes to portray ("in the best possible light" to use a cliche). This portrayal in the best possible light is definately not in the spirit of NPOV. Belbo Casaubon 00:11, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
As relates to people, using their own publicity photos may be favourable to our WP:BLP compliance. (Though some editors will want me hung, drawn, and quartered for suggesting that we are actually allowed to use publicity photos under fair use at all.) As regards photographs, I believe the main NPOV concern is how representative the photo is of the person's normal image. We wouldn't want to use a police mugshot for an individual who is not best known for being a criminal, for instance. In the case of film stars, models, etc. where their image is publicity shots, those are the most representative images available. -- tjstrf talk 01:33, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
2007 (UTC)
Hi.
Since you reverted my edit, I'd like to go and discuss it here. Does the "significance" of views have any relation to notability as defined in WP:N at all? How is "significant views" defined, anyway, and what is used to judge it? Should there be a guideline on it? Since Wikipedia:Significance redirects to Wikipedia:Notability, does this mean there is a connection? If there is, should it be mentioned, as my edit would have done? Sorry for any inconvenience due to the edit, however. 74.38.35.171 20:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
It is NPOV to describe misunderstandings as "misunderstandings" without qualification, when the misunderstanders do not believe themselves to be misunderstanding anything? This seems like a tricky, borderline issue, so I wanted to get a more general idea of what the community thinks about an article like Misunderstandings about evolution. - Silence 16:16, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
---
<<The definition of a misunderstanding is that the misunderstanders do not believe themselves to be misunderstanding. For example, when a child believes that you cannot subtract a 4 from 3, that is a misunderstanding. The child does not "believe" themselves to be misunderstanding but are believing in an incorrect rule of subtraction due to their own misconceptions about arithmetic.>>
\\\\ "Misunderstanding is a point-of-view."
[Leia to Luke, in "Star Wars, episode IX('Second Revenge Of The Sith')"]
signed: KSM-2501ZX, IP address:= 200.143.1.33 04:05, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
This issue has gone to medcab Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2007-01-12_Nick_Baker_(chef) and I would be grateful for some authoritative opinion on it either there or on the Baker discussion page. Thank you kindly. David Lyons 08:50, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I suggest removing this sentence:
The principles upon which these policies are based are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editors' consensus. Their policy pages may be edited only to improve the application and explanation of the principles.
because:
Enchanter 00:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Period.
Why pretend? Concoct a guideline that makes some sense to replace it. Relgif 20:48, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
---
I find this an interesting observation. So let's see why the following is not a "neutral point of view."
Counterexample one. Let T be the TotalSet of all published points-of-view on a WikipediaPageTopic. Lay out T across the hillside and make a photograph P of the entirety of T through a wide-angle lens (à travers l'objectif). Compress the pixel representation of P to fit on a Wikipedia page WP. That WP would be a "neutral point of view."
Just because we as a Wikipedia community have not figured out how to control our natural dog-pack politics that rips out NPOV from Wikipeda pages does not throw into question the existence of NPOV. We just have a lot of work to do in being honest with ourselves about the power politics that currently determines the biased POV that "hot" Wikipedia pages promote. -- Rednblu 03:26, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Actually, there are no rules on the nutshell, they are still evolving (see: Template_talk:Nutshell). There is an active discussion on whether the nutshell is useful, or redundant. To make it useful, it should not just echo the first paragraph. I think the edited version conveyed the same essence more succinctly. If someone else would like to take a crack at condensing the nutshell, please do. But as it stands it is too wordy, and does not set a good example for the usefulness of the nutshell in general. Dhaluza 12:23, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
The nutshell, after Francis's revert, was: All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly, proportionately and without bias. I believe this is excessively wordy for a nutshell; at the very least it can be simplified to Wikipedia articles must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views without bias. (I've just made this change in the article.) In my previous edit, I phrased this as: Bias is unacceptable in articles. Be fair when presenting conflicting points of view. What was wrong with my wording? - Brian Kendig 16:15, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I see you've again reverted the nutshell, undoing my changes. The nutshell as it stands now is this; I've italicized the words I had deleted: "All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly, proportionately and without bias." Would you please tell me why the italicized words are so important that the nutshell is not accurate without them? - Brian Kendig 16:40, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, this more and more looking like WP:POINT in my eyes. Neither Brian Kendig, nor Dhaluza seemed to get much support for their novel ideas at Template talk:Nutshell. Then, instead of waiting till the discussion reaches a point, they went around implementing the novel unapproved ideas on the nutshells of some high-profile policy pages, including this one, in an attempt to illustrate their points that weren't agreed upon at Template talk:Nutshell. Because of the high profile of the pages, these changes cause quite some disruption (while on average, there's little enthousiasm about the intent of the novel principles, and even less about the way they're being forced down), also because ongoing and recent other discussions on the nutshell topic, at the talk pages of these policies, are being ignored. We have a guideline about that: Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point. Please, go read it, including the last paragraph of WP:POINT#Examples, before deciding to continue on this slippery slope. My next step would be to let people at the WP:AN/I decide about how best to proceed next. -- Francis Schonken 17:44, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
The Tom Welham page is a textbook example of POV, but I don't know enough about the guy to do anything about it. Can someone help out here? Knight of Ashitaka 15:49, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
It appears that one or more editors are opposed to making any change whatsoever to the main page, and the discussion is not going well. WP guidance in this case is to use WP:BRD. So I am re-applying my last thoughtful good-faith effort, and asking that the procedure is followed. Also, it would be good to review WP:Consensus carefully, because there is a new consensus there, with a flow chart that differs from the recent edit history here. Dhaluza 22:53, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
May editors consider what a waste of time/effort this discussion is? Rather than spend so much ink & sweat discussing the fine differences between "Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content" and "Encyclopedic content", volunteers' time could be better spent improving articles, starting a new one, checking a random article to see if it needs our assistance, or in any of many other useful tasks.
≈ jossi ≈
(talk) 17:03, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
This page has been move protected for a year. Is it a good idea to keep it that way? I can not think of a reason why the page should be moved, but still... it is like not protecting user pages, just because it is a wiki and we should make sure it stays that way. // habj 01:53, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I have tried to add a link to a list of film reviews (see Children of Men article) from a reviewer who is Catholic in a Catholic journal, and been told that any review by a Catholic in a Catholic journal automatically violates NPOV, and that only non-Catholic journals could be unbiased. I do not understand the concept of an unbiased review of artistic work, or how reporting the fact that there was such a review is biased. Especially since the reviews of the film from non-Catholics have been favorable and by Catholics unfavorable, I fail to grasp how this "only exclude Catholics because they are biased" reflects NPOV. This is not a science article, it's a movie review! Agent Cooper 12:08, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Religion says care should be used in using the term "fundamentalist." Is there a policy on how to use the word "Christian"? On some pages it is assumed that a certain theological test must be passed before it can be applied even if a group professes itself as Christian. The claim is made that since there is disagreement on this the term cannot be used of them. (This despite the fact that there are sizeable groups who would say Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox are are not Christian Churches.) This has the effect of perpetuating the theological test of what a Christian group is. Do we go with a majority view and perhaps require a minimum theological perspective (is that even really possible?) or do we adopt a secular meaning of "Christian" for this resource? Dtbrown 21:19, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Class bias, including bias favoring one social class and bias ignoring social or class division.
This scentence is in the summary on bias. It seems a little conflicted.
Is it biased to ignore class divisions and assume that you are talking to people on an equal level. The way that this is worded is saying to somehow be classest, and not be classest at the same time.
I would attempt to fix it, but I am not 100% sure what is meant to be conveyed here. I get the idea, but I think that someone with more experience than myself should give it a go.
Emry 08:09, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I think it means that articles should not be written 1. from the POV of a specific social class
or 2. in a way intended to ignore or hide class differences
So, articles should: 1. try to avoid writing from the POV of a specific class 2. mention class POVs if they are noteworthy 3. mention class distinctions or differences if they are noteworthy
However, I would be careful when doing the task that I listed as #2 there, because not every member of a class (even if membership is easily definable) has the same view. But in any case, if you are discussing what humans experienced, the decision of which experiences to mention should not be unduly biased on the basis of the class of the person experiencing them. - Todemo
Suggest fleshing out Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Pseudoscience with some of the principles from Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience. Particularly useful are the distinctions drawn in sections 20.1.15 through 20.1.18, i.e. among:
thanks for considering this - Jim Butler( talk) 09:03, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Would any neutral editor mind reviewing the version history of this article and weighing in there with their editing skill? Thanks. Wjhonson 17:04, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Neutral? Let me give a statement, and tell you why it isn't neutral.
"The FERTILE CRESCENT is generally defined as the area between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. It is currently inhabited by a population of about X (source: census of A)"
The sentence, if it were neutral, would say HUMAN population, rather than just population. In order to have a neutral point of view, it would be necessary to start an otherwise unnecessary inclusion of the word "human" in almost every article, in a way that is dissimilar to almost any other form of writing. However, the current article specifically states as an example of bias,
"Ethnic or racial bias, including racism, nationalism, regionalism and tribalism;"
Does the fact that "Speciesism" is not on the list mean that species bias is allowed, and that assumption that humans are the topic can be followed as is followed in most other publications?
Is it necessary to write the encyclopedia from the point of view of a deist's god? Or an alien observer? When we discuss rockets travelling through the atmosphere, is the atmosphere's perspective important?
I suppose the answer is partly revealed by the fact that the current version of this article says that a POV must be published to even be mentioned. But if someone publishes a fluid dynamics paper, or a poem, about what happens to the atmosphere as a rocket passes through it, does that mean that this perspective is now important enough to deserve notice? -Todemo
\\\\ Right. Besides, the respective languages of many "primitive" cultures still define "human" or "people" as "anyone who belongs to *OUR* group/community/nation", whereas any type of "outsider" is not considered much better than an animal or something. Remember, the word "barbarian" was used for meaning "anyone who was not Greek/Roman".
KSM-2501ZX, IP address:= 200.143.1.33 04:26, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
In order to have a neutral point of view about the subject of pseudoscience, those who are accused of practicing pseudoscience (creation scientists in my case) should be able to point out, with reference to the definition of pseudoscience given in the article, why they think evolutonism is pseudoscience according to the definition given, as:
"On the other hand, Evolutionism, or the belief that modern life evolved from one-celled organisms, is considered by some scientists to be pseudoscience because of its over-reliance on confirmation rather than refutation, and the discouragment of scientific testing by interested scientists who do not accept evolution to attempt to refute the basic assumption that life evolved, as well as the suppression of the position that life did not evolve." Eddiejoe 02:02, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your comments. It is not a "fringe point of view" that "evolutionism is thought by some scientists to be pseudoscience because of its over-reliance on confirmation rather than refutation, and the discouragment of scientific testing by interested scientists who do not accept evolution to attempt to refute the basic assumption that life evolved, as well as the suppression of the position that life did not evolve." That is directly from the definiton of pseudoscience that the Pseudoscience article gives. You are saying that the definition of pseudoscience that is given is a fringe point of view. Note that the previous part of the paragraph does not give tne reasons, according to the stated definition, why the fundamentalist Christian viewpoint is pseudoscience. I show how evolutionism correlates with the definition. Eddiejoe 12:01, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
The NPOV guidelines currently promote USA-style journalistic balance, a "he said", "she said" approach, where if you balance it all out nicely, you should have a neutral article.
However, some articles are prone to bias, and can become very contentious. It would be good if the article could be not so much presenting opposing arguments, as presenting a framework in which these arguments all have a legitimate place. The articles in Wikipedia, such as [religion] which use an inclusive definition do not start with an inherent bias, and achieve a neutral tone much more easily than those that don't, such as [black people].
If this is considered to be a useful idea, it might a good thing to encourage via policy.
I have a draft proposal for an addition to NPOV, which you can find here.
Thank-you for your consideration, Trishm 09:54, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't think this description is helpful (as offered to date). How many of our editors will understand what is meant by "inclusive introductions". Count me in the set that didn't, and still doesn't. GRBerry 16:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
An anonymous editor made changes to the Bias section, and this was reverted citing consensus although it is not clear that action this was supported by the policy there. In any event, the changes were mostly an improvement which carried the same meaning with far fewer words. I have further refined the changes. If the new verbiage does not reflect the consensus view of what the policy should say, then please improve it (without adding back unnecssary words-- make every word tell). Do not return to an inferior formulation citing consensus, because consensus is not status-quo. Dhaluza 00:33, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure this comes up all the time - an article is given a biased but much more familiar title, rather than a neutral, less familiar title eg. POV Glorious Revolution over NPOV Revolution of 1688. Does NPOV just relate to content, or does it trump the 'Best known' policy on article titles?-- Shtove 15:22, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I know this isn't about neutral point of view directly, but since the major three (or major two, if WP:ATT is successful) policies do work in harmony, it does seem relevant. WP:ATT is basically intended to combine WP:V and WP:NOR together without changing them. Anyways, if you have anything to say on the matter, you are of course welcome to share your comments at WT:ATT. Thanks! — Armedblowfish ( talk| mail) 02:01, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
The Srebrenica massacre article is currently bogged down in a seemingly irreconcilable discussion about what to call those who are critical of the established view of the massacre. [4] [5] These include a wide range of views and persons:
Group No. 1: believes that all of these views should be labelled as " revisionist" or as " genocide denial". As I see it their main argument is that criticism of the generally accepted view is per definition revisionist and that those who do not agree with the ICTY legal finding of the massacre as an Act of Genocide are, again, per definition, Genocide deniers.
Group No. 2: believes that headings such as "critical views" or "alternative views" are more appropriate and in line with Wikipedia:NPOV. The main arguments for this are that this is avoids casting all critics as "revisionists" or "genocide deniers", terms which insinuate that these persons and views belong in the same category as Holocaust revisionists and Holocaust deniers. I belong to the second group.
As the discussion on the Srebrenica massacre Talk page is going nowhere, I would very much like an opinion on this matter. Maybe even a suggestion. Sincere regards Osli73 20:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
As so often I am inclined to suggest a slight revision in Osli73's account of the situation as set out so clearly above. Rather than "their main argument is that criticism of the generally accepted view is per definition revisionist" I think "their main argument is that the promotion of an alternative version of facts established by judgments given in a court of international law is by definition revisionist" describes the position more accurately. -- Opbeith 22:10, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Osli73, it's hard work as usual running after you. Your account of the views of what you call Group 1 is still in my view misleading (speaking as someone who you would presumably designate a member of that group). Criticism of a loose category of "generally accepted views" is not what the discussion at the article has been concerned with. The discussion has focused on how to categorise proiminent views that start from an "alternative view" of facts established in an international court of law - the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, the ICTY you refer to. The fact that you've simply edited your input rather than describe the change you made makes my initial response to you a little puzzling but it's probably unhelpful to get into detailed discussion here of that and of some of the other details of your summary, so I'll leave the matter at that, but please have some regard for the general thread of the discussion, not just your own contribution. -- Opbeith 10:18, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
And is it really "civil" to systematise other people's comments into category without any discussion? -- Opbeith 10:24, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure that this project page is the right place for this? I reckon this not be discussed here but in the article talk page. You could then post a link here and announce it at WP:RFC to get more uninvolved users' attention. Regards, -- Asterion talk 19:08, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Is it OK to have a sentence that isn't neutral POV, assuming there are other sentences elsewhere in the article that present the other POV? I'm talking specifically about sentences that omit something like "Supporters/critics say..." and are worded to make an opinion sound like it's presented as a fact. For example: "Bigfoot is said by some to be a big hairy creature" versus "Bigfoot is a big hairy creature" and later "Critics doubt its existence" (excuse my terrible example, but I hope it gets the idea across). I would think that all statements in an article need to be clear whether they are fact or opinion, and in the case of disputed ideas, the nature of the dispute should be clear as well. -- Milo H Minderbinder 13:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Neutrality of this article is debated because neutrality is never achievable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Psyphen ( talk • contribs) 18:28, 23 February 2007 (UTC).
I notice certain people are deleting anti-X material on NPOV#Undue Weight grounds, claiming that there is not enough pro-X stuff. Isn't the onus on them to WRITE some pro-X stuff, if they can? X being the usual suspects. Fourtildas 06:22, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
This statement in "Fairness of tone" has me a little confused. "— for instance, refuting opposing views as one goes along makes them look a lot worse than collecting them in an opinions-of-opponents section." How is the term "worse" used here? Is "worse" good or bad for fairness of tone? If worse is bad then it would seem to imply that users should create a criticism section, which would go against WP:Criticism and statements by Jimbo "[...] it isn't that we should not include the criticisms, but that the information should be properly incorporated throughout the article rather than having a troll magnet section of random criticisms." Perhaps someone could clarify. Morphh (talk) 01:46, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
In Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Fairness_of_tone, it says "for instance, refuting opposing views as one goes along makes them look a lot worse than collecting them in an opinions-of-opponents section", but this isn't true. Collecting all criticism into a single section is not a neutral way of presenting information, and we shouldn't be encouraging it.
Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Article_structure explains this well:
Separating all the controversial aspects of a topic into a single section results in a very tortured form of writing, especially a back-and-forth dialogue between "proponents" and "opponents". It also creates a hierarchy of fact - the main passage is "true" and "undisputed", whereas the rest are "controversial" and therefore more likely to be false, an implication that may often be inappropriate.
Since many of the topics in an encyclopedia will inevitably encounter controversy, editors should attempt to write in a manner that folds debates into the narrative rather than "distilling" them out into separate sections that ignore each other.
— Omegatron 18:31, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
68.189.124.93 20:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
We could replace NPOV with this quote:
Since many of the topics in an encyclopedia will inevitably encounter controversy, editors should attempt to write in a manner that folds debates into the narrative rather than "distilling" them out into separate sections that ignore each other.
— Omegatron 18:31, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
And all of our wasteful arguments would come to an end, while vastly improving the quality of wikipedia. Bigbrisco 02:11, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
That bit has been removed from the page, which is good, but it was correct to say that back-and-forth arguments and rebuttals are not a neutral or encyclopedic way of presenting information. It was just wrong because it suggested a combined Criticism section as a solution. Both are bad. We should use this page to emphasize this, and maybe give an example of each type of bad writing and one example of good writing. — Omegatron 19:05, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
It says "If this project gives equal validity to those who literally claim that the Earth is flat, or those who claim that the Holocaust never occurred" (so much for NPOV) We Holocaust Revisionists are often likened to those who said that the earth was flat. But just the reverse is true: It is the other side that acts like a Holy Inquisition, institutionalizing one viewpoint and punishing heretics. Remember: We only accepted that the earth is round after the debate was opened. And since then, the round-earth adherents have not needed false news laws, hate crimes laws, and libel or slander laws to protect the truthfulness of their view. Likewise, all we ask is that the Holocaust story either stand or fall according to the evidence -- or lack of it.
Saintrotter 3 March 2007
Please, try to see the truth
http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/intro/index.html
-The Church of Rome believed the earth was flat. -Jews believe 6 million died in gas chambers.
-The Church went as far as to outlaw any questioning of their official flat earth view. -Jews went as far as to outlaw any questioning of their official holocaust view.
-Galileo discovered that the earth is round and moves around the sun. -Revisionists discovered that the 6 million number was wrong and gas chambers did not exist.
-Galileo was persecuted for his discoveries. -Revisionists are persecuted for their discoveries.
If anyone is trying to say “the earth is flat”, it is certainly not those brave enough to question official dogmas.
Saintrotter 04:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
\\\\\ In my not-so-humble opinion, here go two things:
a) The best/only way to implement Wikipedia's NPOV policy would be something like this: "*According to* Source A, abc=ABC; *according to* Source B, xyz=rst; *according to* Source C, 2+2=5;"; and so on;
z) if the nazis had not exterminated I-don't-know-how-many jews, the world as we know it today would be less bad than it is?
Most sincerely,
KSM-2501ZX, IP address:= 200.143.1.33 03:56, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
To maintain NPOV I believe that there is a fundamental flaw in using a Subject's own publicity material within articles, a publicity photograph for example portrays a perfect POV image of the subject with the context, setting, lighting and demeanour that the Subject wishes to portray ("in the best possible light" to use a cliche). This portrayal in the best possible light is definately not in the spirit of NPOV. Belbo Casaubon 00:11, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
As relates to people, using their own publicity photos may be favourable to our WP:BLP compliance. (Though some editors will want me hung, drawn, and quartered for suggesting that we are actually allowed to use publicity photos under fair use at all.) As regards photographs, I believe the main NPOV concern is how representative the photo is of the person's normal image. We wouldn't want to use a police mugshot for an individual who is not best known for being a criminal, for instance. In the case of film stars, models, etc. where their image is publicity shots, those are the most representative images available. -- tjstrf talk 01:33, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
2007 (UTC)
Hi.
Since you reverted my edit, I'd like to go and discuss it here. Does the "significance" of views have any relation to notability as defined in WP:N at all? How is "significant views" defined, anyway, and what is used to judge it? Should there be a guideline on it? Since Wikipedia:Significance redirects to Wikipedia:Notability, does this mean there is a connection? If there is, should it be mentioned, as my edit would have done? Sorry for any inconvenience due to the edit, however. 74.38.35.171 20:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
It is NPOV to describe misunderstandings as "misunderstandings" without qualification, when the misunderstanders do not believe themselves to be misunderstanding anything? This seems like a tricky, borderline issue, so I wanted to get a more general idea of what the community thinks about an article like Misunderstandings about evolution. - Silence 16:16, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
---
<<The definition of a misunderstanding is that the misunderstanders do not believe themselves to be misunderstanding. For example, when a child believes that you cannot subtract a 4 from 3, that is a misunderstanding. The child does not "believe" themselves to be misunderstanding but are believing in an incorrect rule of subtraction due to their own misconceptions about arithmetic.>>
\\\\ "Misunderstanding is a point-of-view."
[Leia to Luke, in "Star Wars, episode IX('Second Revenge Of The Sith')"]
signed: KSM-2501ZX, IP address:= 200.143.1.33 04:05, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
This issue has gone to medcab Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2007-01-12_Nick_Baker_(chef) and I would be grateful for some authoritative opinion on it either there or on the Baker discussion page. Thank you kindly. David Lyons 08:50, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I suggest removing this sentence:
The principles upon which these policies are based are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editors' consensus. Their policy pages may be edited only to improve the application and explanation of the principles.
because:
Enchanter 00:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Period.
Why pretend? Concoct a guideline that makes some sense to replace it. Relgif 20:48, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
---
I find this an interesting observation. So let's see why the following is not a "neutral point of view."
Counterexample one. Let T be the TotalSet of all published points-of-view on a WikipediaPageTopic. Lay out T across the hillside and make a photograph P of the entirety of T through a wide-angle lens (à travers l'objectif). Compress the pixel representation of P to fit on a Wikipedia page WP. That WP would be a "neutral point of view."
Just because we as a Wikipedia community have not figured out how to control our natural dog-pack politics that rips out NPOV from Wikipeda pages does not throw into question the existence of NPOV. We just have a lot of work to do in being honest with ourselves about the power politics that currently determines the biased POV that "hot" Wikipedia pages promote. -- Rednblu 03:26, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Actually, there are no rules on the nutshell, they are still evolving (see: Template_talk:Nutshell). There is an active discussion on whether the nutshell is useful, or redundant. To make it useful, it should not just echo the first paragraph. I think the edited version conveyed the same essence more succinctly. If someone else would like to take a crack at condensing the nutshell, please do. But as it stands it is too wordy, and does not set a good example for the usefulness of the nutshell in general. Dhaluza 12:23, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
The nutshell, after Francis's revert, was: All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly, proportionately and without bias. I believe this is excessively wordy for a nutshell; at the very least it can be simplified to Wikipedia articles must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views without bias. (I've just made this change in the article.) In my previous edit, I phrased this as: Bias is unacceptable in articles. Be fair when presenting conflicting points of view. What was wrong with my wording? - Brian Kendig 16:15, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I see you've again reverted the nutshell, undoing my changes. The nutshell as it stands now is this; I've italicized the words I had deleted: "All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly, proportionately and without bias." Would you please tell me why the italicized words are so important that the nutshell is not accurate without them? - Brian Kendig 16:40, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, this more and more looking like WP:POINT in my eyes. Neither Brian Kendig, nor Dhaluza seemed to get much support for their novel ideas at Template talk:Nutshell. Then, instead of waiting till the discussion reaches a point, they went around implementing the novel unapproved ideas on the nutshells of some high-profile policy pages, including this one, in an attempt to illustrate their points that weren't agreed upon at Template talk:Nutshell. Because of the high profile of the pages, these changes cause quite some disruption (while on average, there's little enthousiasm about the intent of the novel principles, and even less about the way they're being forced down), also because ongoing and recent other discussions on the nutshell topic, at the talk pages of these policies, are being ignored. We have a guideline about that: Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point. Please, go read it, including the last paragraph of WP:POINT#Examples, before deciding to continue on this slippery slope. My next step would be to let people at the WP:AN/I decide about how best to proceed next. -- Francis Schonken 17:44, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
The Tom Welham page is a textbook example of POV, but I don't know enough about the guy to do anything about it. Can someone help out here? Knight of Ashitaka 15:49, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
It appears that one or more editors are opposed to making any change whatsoever to the main page, and the discussion is not going well. WP guidance in this case is to use WP:BRD. So I am re-applying my last thoughtful good-faith effort, and asking that the procedure is followed. Also, it would be good to review WP:Consensus carefully, because there is a new consensus there, with a flow chart that differs from the recent edit history here. Dhaluza 22:53, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
May editors consider what a waste of time/effort this discussion is? Rather than spend so much ink & sweat discussing the fine differences between "Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content" and "Encyclopedic content", volunteers' time could be better spent improving articles, starting a new one, checking a random article to see if it needs our assistance, or in any of many other useful tasks.
≈ jossi ≈
(talk) 17:03, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
This page has been move protected for a year. Is it a good idea to keep it that way? I can not think of a reason why the page should be moved, but still... it is like not protecting user pages, just because it is a wiki and we should make sure it stays that way. // habj 01:53, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I have tried to add a link to a list of film reviews (see Children of Men article) from a reviewer who is Catholic in a Catholic journal, and been told that any review by a Catholic in a Catholic journal automatically violates NPOV, and that only non-Catholic journals could be unbiased. I do not understand the concept of an unbiased review of artistic work, or how reporting the fact that there was such a review is biased. Especially since the reviews of the film from non-Catholics have been favorable and by Catholics unfavorable, I fail to grasp how this "only exclude Catholics because they are biased" reflects NPOV. This is not a science article, it's a movie review! Agent Cooper 12:08, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Religion says care should be used in using the term "fundamentalist." Is there a policy on how to use the word "Christian"? On some pages it is assumed that a certain theological test must be passed before it can be applied even if a group professes itself as Christian. The claim is made that since there is disagreement on this the term cannot be used of them. (This despite the fact that there are sizeable groups who would say Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox are are not Christian Churches.) This has the effect of perpetuating the theological test of what a Christian group is. Do we go with a majority view and perhaps require a minimum theological perspective (is that even really possible?) or do we adopt a secular meaning of "Christian" for this resource? Dtbrown 21:19, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Class bias, including bias favoring one social class and bias ignoring social or class division.
This scentence is in the summary on bias. It seems a little conflicted.
Is it biased to ignore class divisions and assume that you are talking to people on an equal level. The way that this is worded is saying to somehow be classest, and not be classest at the same time.
I would attempt to fix it, but I am not 100% sure what is meant to be conveyed here. I get the idea, but I think that someone with more experience than myself should give it a go.
Emry 08:09, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I think it means that articles should not be written 1. from the POV of a specific social class
or 2. in a way intended to ignore or hide class differences
So, articles should: 1. try to avoid writing from the POV of a specific class 2. mention class POVs if they are noteworthy 3. mention class distinctions or differences if they are noteworthy
However, I would be careful when doing the task that I listed as #2 there, because not every member of a class (even if membership is easily definable) has the same view. But in any case, if you are discussing what humans experienced, the decision of which experiences to mention should not be unduly biased on the basis of the class of the person experiencing them. - Todemo
Suggest fleshing out Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Pseudoscience with some of the principles from Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience. Particularly useful are the distinctions drawn in sections 20.1.15 through 20.1.18, i.e. among:
thanks for considering this - Jim Butler( talk) 09:03, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Would any neutral editor mind reviewing the version history of this article and weighing in there with their editing skill? Thanks. Wjhonson 17:04, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Neutral? Let me give a statement, and tell you why it isn't neutral.
"The FERTILE CRESCENT is generally defined as the area between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. It is currently inhabited by a population of about X (source: census of A)"
The sentence, if it were neutral, would say HUMAN population, rather than just population. In order to have a neutral point of view, it would be necessary to start an otherwise unnecessary inclusion of the word "human" in almost every article, in a way that is dissimilar to almost any other form of writing. However, the current article specifically states as an example of bias,
"Ethnic or racial bias, including racism, nationalism, regionalism and tribalism;"
Does the fact that "Speciesism" is not on the list mean that species bias is allowed, and that assumption that humans are the topic can be followed as is followed in most other publications?
Is it necessary to write the encyclopedia from the point of view of a deist's god? Or an alien observer? When we discuss rockets travelling through the atmosphere, is the atmosphere's perspective important?
I suppose the answer is partly revealed by the fact that the current version of this article says that a POV must be published to even be mentioned. But if someone publishes a fluid dynamics paper, or a poem, about what happens to the atmosphere as a rocket passes through it, does that mean that this perspective is now important enough to deserve notice? -Todemo
\\\\ Right. Besides, the respective languages of many "primitive" cultures still define "human" or "people" as "anyone who belongs to *OUR* group/community/nation", whereas any type of "outsider" is not considered much better than an animal or something. Remember, the word "barbarian" was used for meaning "anyone who was not Greek/Roman".
KSM-2501ZX, IP address:= 200.143.1.33 04:26, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
In order to have a neutral point of view about the subject of pseudoscience, those who are accused of practicing pseudoscience (creation scientists in my case) should be able to point out, with reference to the definition of pseudoscience given in the article, why they think evolutonism is pseudoscience according to the definition given, as:
"On the other hand, Evolutionism, or the belief that modern life evolved from one-celled organisms, is considered by some scientists to be pseudoscience because of its over-reliance on confirmation rather than refutation, and the discouragment of scientific testing by interested scientists who do not accept evolution to attempt to refute the basic assumption that life evolved, as well as the suppression of the position that life did not evolve." Eddiejoe 02:02, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your comments. It is not a "fringe point of view" that "evolutionism is thought by some scientists to be pseudoscience because of its over-reliance on confirmation rather than refutation, and the discouragment of scientific testing by interested scientists who do not accept evolution to attempt to refute the basic assumption that life evolved, as well as the suppression of the position that life did not evolve." That is directly from the definiton of pseudoscience that the Pseudoscience article gives. You are saying that the definition of pseudoscience that is given is a fringe point of view. Note that the previous part of the paragraph does not give tne reasons, according to the stated definition, why the fundamentalist Christian viewpoint is pseudoscience. I show how evolutionism correlates with the definition. Eddiejoe 12:01, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
The NPOV guidelines currently promote USA-style journalistic balance, a "he said", "she said" approach, where if you balance it all out nicely, you should have a neutral article.
However, some articles are prone to bias, and can become very contentious. It would be good if the article could be not so much presenting opposing arguments, as presenting a framework in which these arguments all have a legitimate place. The articles in Wikipedia, such as [religion] which use an inclusive definition do not start with an inherent bias, and achieve a neutral tone much more easily than those that don't, such as [black people].
If this is considered to be a useful idea, it might a good thing to encourage via policy.
I have a draft proposal for an addition to NPOV, which you can find here.
Thank-you for your consideration, Trishm 09:54, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't think this description is helpful (as offered to date). How many of our editors will understand what is meant by "inclusive introductions". Count me in the set that didn't, and still doesn't. GRBerry 16:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
An anonymous editor made changes to the Bias section, and this was reverted citing consensus although it is not clear that action this was supported by the policy there. In any event, the changes were mostly an improvement which carried the same meaning with far fewer words. I have further refined the changes. If the new verbiage does not reflect the consensus view of what the policy should say, then please improve it (without adding back unnecssary words-- make every word tell). Do not return to an inferior formulation citing consensus, because consensus is not status-quo. Dhaluza 00:33, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure this comes up all the time - an article is given a biased but much more familiar title, rather than a neutral, less familiar title eg. POV Glorious Revolution over NPOV Revolution of 1688. Does NPOV just relate to content, or does it trump the 'Best known' policy on article titles?-- Shtove 15:22, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I know this isn't about neutral point of view directly, but since the major three (or major two, if WP:ATT is successful) policies do work in harmony, it does seem relevant. WP:ATT is basically intended to combine WP:V and WP:NOR together without changing them. Anyways, if you have anything to say on the matter, you are of course welcome to share your comments at WT:ATT. Thanks! — Armedblowfish ( talk| mail) 02:01, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
The Srebrenica massacre article is currently bogged down in a seemingly irreconcilable discussion about what to call those who are critical of the established view of the massacre. [4] [5] These include a wide range of views and persons:
Group No. 1: believes that all of these views should be labelled as " revisionist" or as " genocide denial". As I see it their main argument is that criticism of the generally accepted view is per definition revisionist and that those who do not agree with the ICTY legal finding of the massacre as an Act of Genocide are, again, per definition, Genocide deniers.
Group No. 2: believes that headings such as "critical views" or "alternative views" are more appropriate and in line with Wikipedia:NPOV. The main arguments for this are that this is avoids casting all critics as "revisionists" or "genocide deniers", terms which insinuate that these persons and views belong in the same category as Holocaust revisionists and Holocaust deniers. I belong to the second group.
As the discussion on the Srebrenica massacre Talk page is going nowhere, I would very much like an opinion on this matter. Maybe even a suggestion. Sincere regards Osli73 20:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
As so often I am inclined to suggest a slight revision in Osli73's account of the situation as set out so clearly above. Rather than "their main argument is that criticism of the generally accepted view is per definition revisionist" I think "their main argument is that the promotion of an alternative version of facts established by judgments given in a court of international law is by definition revisionist" describes the position more accurately. -- Opbeith 22:10, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Osli73, it's hard work as usual running after you. Your account of the views of what you call Group 1 is still in my view misleading (speaking as someone who you would presumably designate a member of that group). Criticism of a loose category of "generally accepted views" is not what the discussion at the article has been concerned with. The discussion has focused on how to categorise proiminent views that start from an "alternative view" of facts established in an international court of law - the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, the ICTY you refer to. The fact that you've simply edited your input rather than describe the change you made makes my initial response to you a little puzzling but it's probably unhelpful to get into detailed discussion here of that and of some of the other details of your summary, so I'll leave the matter at that, but please have some regard for the general thread of the discussion, not just your own contribution. -- Opbeith 10:18, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
And is it really "civil" to systematise other people's comments into category without any discussion? -- Opbeith 10:24, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure that this project page is the right place for this? I reckon this not be discussed here but in the article talk page. You could then post a link here and announce it at WP:RFC to get more uninvolved users' attention. Regards, -- Asterion talk 19:08, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Is it OK to have a sentence that isn't neutral POV, assuming there are other sentences elsewhere in the article that present the other POV? I'm talking specifically about sentences that omit something like "Supporters/critics say..." and are worded to make an opinion sound like it's presented as a fact. For example: "Bigfoot is said by some to be a big hairy creature" versus "Bigfoot is a big hairy creature" and later "Critics doubt its existence" (excuse my terrible example, but I hope it gets the idea across). I would think that all statements in an article need to be clear whether they are fact or opinion, and in the case of disputed ideas, the nature of the dispute should be clear as well. -- Milo H Minderbinder 13:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Neutrality of this article is debated because neutrality is never achievable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Psyphen ( talk • contribs) 18:28, 23 February 2007 (UTC).
I notice certain people are deleting anti-X material on NPOV#Undue Weight grounds, claiming that there is not enough pro-X stuff. Isn't the onus on them to WRITE some pro-X stuff, if they can? X being the usual suspects. Fourtildas 06:22, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
This statement in "Fairness of tone" has me a little confused. "— for instance, refuting opposing views as one goes along makes them look a lot worse than collecting them in an opinions-of-opponents section." How is the term "worse" used here? Is "worse" good or bad for fairness of tone? If worse is bad then it would seem to imply that users should create a criticism section, which would go against WP:Criticism and statements by Jimbo "[...] it isn't that we should not include the criticisms, but that the information should be properly incorporated throughout the article rather than having a troll magnet section of random criticisms." Perhaps someone could clarify. Morphh (talk) 01:46, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
In Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Fairness_of_tone, it says "for instance, refuting opposing views as one goes along makes them look a lot worse than collecting them in an opinions-of-opponents section", but this isn't true. Collecting all criticism into a single section is not a neutral way of presenting information, and we shouldn't be encouraging it.
Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Article_structure explains this well:
Separating all the controversial aspects of a topic into a single section results in a very tortured form of writing, especially a back-and-forth dialogue between "proponents" and "opponents". It also creates a hierarchy of fact - the main passage is "true" and "undisputed", whereas the rest are "controversial" and therefore more likely to be false, an implication that may often be inappropriate.
Since many of the topics in an encyclopedia will inevitably encounter controversy, editors should attempt to write in a manner that folds debates into the narrative rather than "distilling" them out into separate sections that ignore each other.
— Omegatron 18:31, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
68.189.124.93 20:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
We could replace NPOV with this quote:
Since many of the topics in an encyclopedia will inevitably encounter controversy, editors should attempt to write in a manner that folds debates into the narrative rather than "distilling" them out into separate sections that ignore each other.
— Omegatron 18:31, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
And all of our wasteful arguments would come to an end, while vastly improving the quality of wikipedia. Bigbrisco 02:11, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
That bit has been removed from the page, which is good, but it was correct to say that back-and-forth arguments and rebuttals are not a neutral or encyclopedic way of presenting information. It was just wrong because it suggested a combined Criticism section as a solution. Both are bad. We should use this page to emphasize this, and maybe give an example of each type of bad writing and one example of good writing. — Omegatron 19:05, 12 March 2007 (UTC)