This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Bensaccount, the Undue weight section does not suggest that there is no room for its interpretation. It is clear that the criteria of the Undue weight section need to be interpreted in view of specific situations. Moreover, in practice, editors often fail to obtain a consensus about how to interpret the criteria of the policies, and so they consider them together. This is natural. However, it still remains that each criteria is individually a valid ground for exclusion. There is nothing wrong in arguing for exclusion using only one criteria such as verifiability or notability or relevance. For example, if the editors of an article agree that some material maybe verifiable and relevant, but not notable, it means that they have agreed to exclude it. There is nothing wrong there. We should even applaud to such a consensus around the policy. This is very natural and simple. In practice, editors do not often agree, but the policy itself should remain simple.
Again, I suspect that you may have a problem with the notability criteria. I personally have a problem with it, and I guess that I am not alone. It should be clarified so that it cannot be used to exclude very valuable information. In particular, I think that a view that is sourced in a peer-reviewed journal, should automatically be accepted as notable. If it is this kind of proposals that you have in mind, then I agree that we should discuss them. - Étincelle (formerly Lumiere) 18:30, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
The first thing to clarify is whether or not arguing for inclusion on the basis of a single criteria such as popularity alone is a practical approach. IMO, it only makes sense to argue to include a view on the basis of one criterion such as popularity if the other criteria such as verifiability and relevancy are satisfied. Otherwise, it is like saying that we can include a view that the consensus says is not relevant and not verifiable because it is popular. Perhaps you would like it that way, but then the first thing we should clarify before we proceed ahead is whether or not it is that way. Don't expect that any one in the statu quo gang will help us here. There is a few of us that boldly want to improve the clarity of the policy and there is a small gang that openly opposes any attempt to improve it. We have to work together. So please, let us work together. Can you give an example where there is a problem because say relevancy alone is a valid ground for exclusion or because verifiability alone is a valid ground for exclusion. For now, don't use popularity as an example because it may just be a problem with the way the criterias is evaluated, and not a problem with the general principle itself. - Étincelle (formerly Lumiere) 02:09, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
The second thing is that it was my mistake to assume that you understood that for me notability, in the same way as popularity, is a general notion that is not defined in relation to a given article. For me, notability is just a variation on popularity. I prefer to use notability instead of popularity because in practice (note) it is not practical to evaluate the popularity of a view, which is the number of people that hold that view. It is not much easier to evaluate how many times the view was expressed in the media. It is easier to evaluate how many prominent adherents have expressed that view in the media. This is what I mean by notability. I am sorry if the term "notability" is not the appropriate one here, but I think popularity is not much better. To simplify things, just assume that what I meant by notability is the notion of popularity that we can measure in practice. It is this notion of notability (or popularity) that I think we need to clarify. - Étincelle (formerly Lumiere) 02:09, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Saxifrage, what you are doing here is called trolling. Don't do that. Bensaccount, I suggest that we ignore editors when they act as trolls. - Étincelle (formerly Lumiere) 03:14, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, the Undue weight section only provides one objective criteria to exclude a view. Moreover, it does not provide any objective criteria to determine the weight that should be attribute to each view. The only objective inclusion standard that is provided is the existence of prominent adherents, and even this one is open to interpretation: what is a prominent adherent? You also right when you say that this criteria is just a way of verifying that a certain opinion qualifies as a [prominent] view. I added "prominent" because a view is still a view even if it does not have prominent adherents. The expression "attributed view" does not capture the idea that the view should be attributed to someone that is well known. For example, remember that anyone can self-publish a book.
I am still thinking about the issue that you raise. I think that to answer this issue, we first need to clarify notability. BTW, see this email from Jimbo, which says that notability is an inclusion standard, which means, that it is a valid ground for exclusion. It is fair to say that a view with prominent adherents is notable. However, it will be too exclusionistic in my opinion to exclude a view because we cannot find prominent adherents. There must be other ways for a view to be notable. I would say that verifiability in a peer-reviewed journal should be accepted as a guarantee of notability, but this is open to discussion. - Étincelle (formerly Lumiere) 16:02, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
In the way you raise your isssue you assume that not every verifiable and notable view should be accepted for inclusion, and I have no problem with this. In particular, I agree that relevancy should be a separate additional inclusion standard (a valid ground for exclusion), and I have seen a lot of supports for this in other policy talk pages and never seen any objection. Note that no objective way has been proposed to check the relevancy of some material. IMO, this is not a problem. It is enough that we all have an intuitive notion of what it means. For each case, the term would have to be interpreted by the editors of the page, but this is fine. However, what is meant by "expertise" is not very intuitive. Can you expand on what you have in mind when you propose expertise as a separate inclusion standard? I think the notion of expertise should be included in the notion of notability. For example, as I previously suggested, a view that has been checked by experts in a peer-review process should be accepted as notable. - Étincelle (formerly Lumiere) 17:13, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
My understanding is that the only disagreement is on the use of the terminology "notability". Do you agree that we need a name for the criteria that is satisfied when the view has prominent adherents? If it is not notability, what it is? Do you agree that to exclude all views without prominent adherents will be too exclusionistic, and therefore there should be other ways to satisfy this nameless criteria? - Étincelle (formerly Lumiere) 20:00, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
There are 4 editors in the gang (to be updated): FeloniousMonk, Hipocrite, Katefan0, KillerChihuahua
List created with the help of the poll. - Étincelle (formerly Lumiere) 22:05, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Bensaccount, the Undue weight section does not suggest that there is no room for its interpretation. It is clear that the criteria of the Undue weight section need to be interpreted in view of specific situations. Moreover, in practice, editors often fail to obtain a consensus about how to interpret the criteria of the policies, and so they consider them together. This is natural. However, it still remains that each criteria is individually a valid ground for exclusion. There is nothing wrong in arguing for exclusion using only one criteria such as verifiability or notability or relevance. For example, if the editors of an article agree that some material maybe verifiable and relevant, but not notable, it means that they have agreed to exclude it. There is nothing wrong there. We should even applaud to such a consensus around the policy. This is very natural and simple. In practice, editors do not often agree, but the policy itself should remain simple.
Again, I suspect that you may have a problem with the notability criteria. I personally have a problem with it, and I guess that I am not alone. It should be clarified so that it cannot be used to exclude very valuable information. In particular, I think that a view that is sourced in a peer-reviewed journal, should automatically be accepted as notable. If it is this kind of proposals that you have in mind, then I agree that we should discuss them. - Étincelle (formerly Lumiere) 18:30, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
The first thing to clarify is whether or not arguing for inclusion on the basis of a single criteria such as popularity alone is a practical approach. IMO, it only makes sense to argue to include a view on the basis of one criterion such as popularity if the other criteria such as verifiability and relevancy are satisfied. Otherwise, it is like saying that we can include a view that the consensus says is not relevant and not verifiable because it is popular. Perhaps you would like it that way, but then the first thing we should clarify before we proceed ahead is whether or not it is that way. Don't expect that any one in the statu quo gang will help us here. There is a few of us that boldly want to improve the clarity of the policy and there is a small gang that openly opposes any attempt to improve it. We have to work together. So please, let us work together. Can you give an example where there is a problem because say relevancy alone is a valid ground for exclusion or because verifiability alone is a valid ground for exclusion. For now, don't use popularity as an example because it may just be a problem with the way the criterias is evaluated, and not a problem with the general principle itself. - Étincelle (formerly Lumiere) 02:09, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
The second thing is that it was my mistake to assume that you understood that for me notability, in the same way as popularity, is a general notion that is not defined in relation to a given article. For me, notability is just a variation on popularity. I prefer to use notability instead of popularity because in practice (note) it is not practical to evaluate the popularity of a view, which is the number of people that hold that view. It is not much easier to evaluate how many times the view was expressed in the media. It is easier to evaluate how many prominent adherents have expressed that view in the media. This is what I mean by notability. I am sorry if the term "notability" is not the appropriate one here, but I think popularity is not much better. To simplify things, just assume that what I meant by notability is the notion of popularity that we can measure in practice. It is this notion of notability (or popularity) that I think we need to clarify. - Étincelle (formerly Lumiere) 02:09, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Saxifrage, what you are doing here is called trolling. Don't do that. Bensaccount, I suggest that we ignore editors when they act as trolls. - Étincelle (formerly Lumiere) 03:14, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, the Undue weight section only provides one objective criteria to exclude a view. Moreover, it does not provide any objective criteria to determine the weight that should be attribute to each view. The only objective inclusion standard that is provided is the existence of prominent adherents, and even this one is open to interpretation: what is a prominent adherent? You also right when you say that this criteria is just a way of verifying that a certain opinion qualifies as a [prominent] view. I added "prominent" because a view is still a view even if it does not have prominent adherents. The expression "attributed view" does not capture the idea that the view should be attributed to someone that is well known. For example, remember that anyone can self-publish a book.
I am still thinking about the issue that you raise. I think that to answer this issue, we first need to clarify notability. BTW, see this email from Jimbo, which says that notability is an inclusion standard, which means, that it is a valid ground for exclusion. It is fair to say that a view with prominent adherents is notable. However, it will be too exclusionistic in my opinion to exclude a view because we cannot find prominent adherents. There must be other ways for a view to be notable. I would say that verifiability in a peer-reviewed journal should be accepted as a guarantee of notability, but this is open to discussion. - Étincelle (formerly Lumiere) 16:02, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
In the way you raise your isssue you assume that not every verifiable and notable view should be accepted for inclusion, and I have no problem with this. In particular, I agree that relevancy should be a separate additional inclusion standard (a valid ground for exclusion), and I have seen a lot of supports for this in other policy talk pages and never seen any objection. Note that no objective way has been proposed to check the relevancy of some material. IMO, this is not a problem. It is enough that we all have an intuitive notion of what it means. For each case, the term would have to be interpreted by the editors of the page, but this is fine. However, what is meant by "expertise" is not very intuitive. Can you expand on what you have in mind when you propose expertise as a separate inclusion standard? I think the notion of expertise should be included in the notion of notability. For example, as I previously suggested, a view that has been checked by experts in a peer-review process should be accepted as notable. - Étincelle (formerly Lumiere) 17:13, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
My understanding is that the only disagreement is on the use of the terminology "notability". Do you agree that we need a name for the criteria that is satisfied when the view has prominent adherents? If it is not notability, what it is? Do you agree that to exclude all views without prominent adherents will be too exclusionistic, and therefore there should be other ways to satisfy this nameless criteria? - Étincelle (formerly Lumiere) 20:00, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
There are 4 editors in the gang (to be updated): FeloniousMonk, Hipocrite, Katefan0, KillerChihuahua
List created with the help of the poll. - Étincelle (formerly Lumiere) 22:05, 8 March 2006 (UTC)