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I brought this up previously without reply, so here goes again:

• "It is a point of view that is neutral - that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject."

• "If we're going to characterize disputes fairly, we should present competing views with a consistently positive, sympathetic tone."

I don't think this is a total contradiction, but after a recent Talk debate I think the dual use of sympathy should go as it presents a wedge to exploit on the page. "Fairness of tone" sufficient? Marskell 17:26, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I've seen it written somewhere that "NPOV" is not "sympathetic view", and that even another encyclopedia has been started that is based on sympathetic view... Thus I'd say that the word "sympathetic" doesn't belong there, "positive" is already positive enough!

BTW, I now read that section, and I don't remember having ever read it before! Is it perhaps a recent addition? If so, it should be looked at critically and corrected where needed. Harald88 00:24, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

You can read it right there above: "neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject." I do understand the second use is slightly different, basically meaning don't denigrate a topic as you're describing it, introduce something only to criticize etc. However, using the word twice in contrary ways doesn't seem sensible. Indeed, even the word "positive" makes me wonder.

Any other comments from people? Marskell 07:41, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I see no real problem with either of these texts:

• the first indicates that we try to stay as neutral as possible when reporting about facts;
• the second is about representing competing views: each view is presented "positive", that is, without denigrating remarks, aka "sympathetic". If we represent a notable "criticism" sympathetic, without undermining the value of that criticism, the topic that is being criticised by the criticising assertion, will be treated "neutral", without particularily favoring it, so: neutral, "not sympathetic nor in opposition" (that is, if we have treated the main topic also without denigrating remarks, aka "positive, sympathetic"). Treating both sides of a debate "sympathetic" makes the treatment of the discussed topic as neutral as we can.

Compare also wikipedia:criticism (guideline proposal) -- Francis Schonken 11:50, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Your second bullet has me lost honestly. I don't think we're disagreeing, if I understand it properly, that the two uses differ but aren't fundamentally contradictory. My point is essentially one of usage: can we say what we say what we say in two without re-using the term "sympathy"? If we simply drop sympathy the meaning will be the same but it won't be open to exploitation. I have literally been told on talk "NPOV says we should be sympathetic to the topic"; in its entirety it doesn't say that. Marskell 12:22, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

"Fair and sensitive tone"? Marskell 07:39, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

POV DISPUTE I believe I have been reverted on two occassions in my editing of Mayor Ray Nagin's entry because the reverter thought that I was using my POV in my edit. I ask, where do you draw the line between commonly accepted fact and POV? Ray Nagin became famous for his MIShandling of Hurricane Katrina. If he had handled it properly, he wouldn't be that famous. I think the prefix "mis" in front of the word is not POV, but rather a fair assessment of the situation.

Just because something is fair or accurate does not change the fact that it is a point of view. Read our policy carerfully: NPOV is NOT about truth. That Nagin mioshandled the situation is a view and it may be held by many many people but it is a view. Provide a verifiable source and name the view. This is not hard to do. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:32, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Except for generally undisputed facts. But here is an opinion; how can one tell for sure that he would do better? In human-related articles try to avoid calling things facts unless they are really facts, like that Hurricane Katrina existed. Mis-handling is an opinion by default. CP/M ^comm | Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 19:22, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I don´t want to get into an arguemnt. If you are right, it will be VERY easy to find a verifiable source saying he misdhandled it. So why not just add the source? Slrubenstein | Talk 03:56, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I can't find a policy about this. Let's say hypothetically in an article about the Japanese tea ceremony an editor wants to add a few pictures of tea ceremonies, that happen to depict details only found in a minority form Mushanokōjisenke. One picture would be fine (it is a legitimate school), but this would seem to me to be a form of visual undue weight. Is there a policy? Even for one picture, if the differences are related to a dispute between schools, should the captions explain or allude to the dispute? Gimmetrow 17:38, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, this hasn't been the topic of much discussion. It would be difficult, and perhaps counterproductive, to write a policy around this, but it is certainly important enough to invest the time in having thoughtful conversation about the issue at relevant Talk pages. Jkelly 17:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

We are discussing it at the relevant pages, but some policy guidelines might help move the discussion forward. The "Undue Weight" section has a list of ways undue weight can be given. I would suggest perhaps adding to the list "selection of images." Gimmetrow 17:48, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Added one line to help clarlify this. Undue weight is not only about text, but about all other material such as images, external links, tables and formatting devices, TOC labelling, article sections, etc. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

While this is a good policy, it's unenforcable. Our only way of dealing with NPOV disputes is dispute resolution, which does nothing. As a result, POV on articles are decided not by neutrality, but by the number of people on one side of the argument. Case in point: any article related to Ayn Rand is biased in her favor, due to the fact that there are more Rand fans editing them than anyone else. Since admins and their unused dispute resolution non-process never do anything about the problem, these articles are run by a de facto pro-Rand POV policy. As a result, Wikipedia can never be NPOV, because Wikipedia's policies exist only on paper. -- LGagnon 23:56, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. Policy is currently decided by consensus, whereas consensus should be made within policy, which is not the same thing. -- Iantresman 00:50, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Not right: Jimbo determined this policy, and it's non-negotiable. Even 100% consensus of Wikipedia editors is not allowed to change it. However, we may propose ways to enhance enforcement of the policy. Harald88 08:43, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Hence, why doesn't "Jimbo" write the darn policy. What on earth is this whole discussion about, then?? Please pardon me because it's only been a few months of active involvement for me. We have a whole world of content still to work on. Why waste editors' valuable time on some of this nonsense that comes across these pages here?, when "Just ask Jimbo" ought be adequate. Obviously it's not just about enforcement but also about the substantive meaning of the words Neutral Point of View. Or am I wrong about that? If so, where are those original statements of what NPOV means? ... Kenosis 01:32, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Let me see if I have this straight. Consensus determines policy, within which consensus is used to determine content, except in the case of certain policies also arrived at by consensus which, when determined by another consensus to be in violation of those certain policies, are arbited by a consensus of administrators whose standing is determined by consensus, which then may proceed by consensus to determine what the facts are and implement any of a range of sanctions as prescribed by consensus? ... Kenosis 03:03, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

The policy works, but in some articles it may take more time than in others. Time and patience is needed in some situations. Have you asked other editors to take a look at Ayn Rand? Any RfC's? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:07, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Not complaining, just making light – though I suppose it can tempt one to turn fundamentalist at times. ... Kenosis 03:15, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I have asked other editors; thus my claim that dispute resolution does nothing. We've had RfC, third opinions, requests for mediations, intervention for personal attacks and vandalism, and yet none of these ever lead towards any improvement in the articles (it's not just Rand's article; it's every article related to her). In fact, the personal attacks were the only things that the admins were willing to deal with. The only ones that were willing to respond gave some lame excuse such as "it's too hostile" or "I'm too lazy". With responses like that, I can't help but think the admins do nothing too (not that they haven't failed in the past already, but that's another bunch of stories).

And time and patience may work if well-cited portions of the article weren't being deleted by biased editors because they don't want any criticisms of their cult to be in the article. Unofrtunately, by the time the admins get around to doing anything none of the info that Rand's fans are destroying will be there anymore. -- LGagnon 03:25, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't buy it. If you can find reputable sources that describe your POV, these will likely remain in the article. I checked the article and statements such as (my highlights): Rand has been accused by some of being a cult leader. Objectivism and the organizations that spawned from it have been accused of being cults themselves. are the type of things that will get you always in trouble, and frustrated. State who says that, and if the person(s) saying that have been published in a reputable source, it will remain uncontested. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:56, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Like I said, the pro-Rand group has deleted all the cited sources. They've all been moved over to an out-of-the-way article where people are unlikely to read them. -- LGagnon 04:08, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Deletion and moving are different. It can't be both. — Centrx→ talk • 05:32, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

As long as there is an informative link to such a secondary article, it's likely OK: spinning subjects off with a short descriptive link is rather standard as it avoids too long articles, loss of focus and clutter. See for example the article on redshift. Harald88 08:58, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

• In response to harald88 above, although "Jimbo determined this policy, and it's non-negotiable. Even 100% consensus of Wikipedia editors is not allowed to change it.", in practice that's not the case. The policy on Undue weight has been changed from what Jimbo described.
• The policy current says "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints, in proportion to the prominence of each". What Jimbo actually described, is here.
• Not only is consensus determining that Undue weight differs from what Jimbo write, "the consensus" won't even discuss it. -- Iantresman 01:15, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

It is the principle that is not negotiable, not the particular implementation of it. — Centrx→ talk • 01:57, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I did not know that; in fact if the editors had kept to Jimbo's instructions, a lot of dicussion and contention would have been avoided! I propose to correct the article accordingly. Harald88 06:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Not a chance. No one will even discuss it. -- Iantresman 11:08, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Not true Iantresman. Recently when clear problems were brought up in a reasonable way and reasonable proposals were brought forth to fix the undue weight section, it quickly gained consensus and was fixed promptly. The problem is it is rarely the case that correct problems are brought up in a productive manner. - Taxman ^Talk 21:03, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it has been fixed. Bensaccount 22:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

We seem to agree that it can be improved further (see the question about undue weight immediately hereafter!). The least contention would be raised, IMHO, if we simply add a reference to Jimbo's comment. We could also add (while scrapping some superfluous existing text) a short citation, for example:

"Jimbo put it like this: if a view is held only by a few people without any traditional training or credentials, and if that view is dismissed by virtually all mainstream scientists, then we can say that ; [...] Usually, mainstream and minority views are treated in the main article, with the mainstream view typically getting a bit more ink, but the minority view presented in such a fashion that both sides could agree to it. Singular views can be moved to a separate page and identified (disclaimed) as such, or in some cases omitted altogether."

Alternatively, we may consider to cite that in the NPOV tutorial. Harald88 21:26, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Non-negotiable also has the meaning that it can't waived on individual article based on the consensus of the people who edit that article. — Centrx→ talk • 17:10, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I have been told (and people have implied) that undue weight somehow can be attributed to articles specifically devoted to a minority subject. I find this odd as it specifically adds in the following sentence, directly contradicting such thinking:

• "None of this is to say that tiny-minority views cannot receive as much attention as we can give them on pages specifically devoted to them."

Either if i'm wrong or if i'm right, I think this needs further clarification - since people seem not to be "getting it". Any comments? Fresheneesz 18:05, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

In an article about a minority view lets say in Mathematics, you can expand as much as you want about that minority view. But you will not give it too much coverage on the main article about Mathematics. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Some editors are of the understanding that one or two citations from a reputable source are enough basis to categorize a person. An example:

• Adding Ayn Rand to Category:Cult leaders on the basis there are three books/articles that describe her and Objectivism as a cult

My understanding is that WP:NPOV forces us to describe all POVs, without asserting them, and to not to assert minority viewpoints as if they were majority viewpoints. Labeling a person as a "cult leader" by adding this person to Category:Cult leaders, is in my view a violation of WP:NPOV. As category inclusions do not have the possibility of presenting competing views as per policy, the only way to maintain neutrality in controversial topics, is to include a person in such category only where there is an undisputed and wide consensus by experts in the subject (as in for example Jim Jones). Otherwise, this will result in ridiculous situations such as editors adding people to controversial categories, just to push a critic's POV when that critic's POV will never be allowed in the article in such an unchallenged fashion as in a category. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 19:07, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I would tend to agree with this. Use of categories to "label" people should be subjected to much stronger scrutiny than it currently is. Their true effect is to lessen understanding of the topic, not enhance it. Especially the more subjective categories, which often have widely varying individual entries based on how vigilant editors are at any particular article. I agree that there should be wide consensus by experts. For instance, I have seen at least one attempt to add George W. Bush to Category:War criminals. Are there people who believe he is one? Probably. Is this a consensus of experts on war crime? Probably not. Was there any supporting evidence provided? No.

What we really need is a way to note sourcing on such categorizations, such as putting a link or footnote superscripted next to the category link itself. Otherwise subjective categories will continue to be based on edit warring and POV cliquing rather than actual encyclopedic quality. Kasreyn 20:48, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Jossi - entries should not go into a Black/White category without some sort of general agreement, otherwise it seems to enshrine a (potentially) minority view and violate due weight. On the other hand, should "positive" labels require general consensus for exclusion? Gimmetrow 15:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I would propose to add some wording to the policy to safeguard the use of Categories, from De facto character assassination. Something along the lines of requiring wide consensus of experts for those lists that can be abused by POV pushers. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:15, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

This topic has been discussed in much more depth and much less one-sidedness on the Objectivism (Ayn Rand) and Ayn Rand. What keeps coming up is that inclusion in a category does not entail asserting a fact. Rather, categories are intended to allow better navigation by grouping articles with a commonality. We can't put someone in a category arbitrarily, but if we required a majority view, then many useful categories -- including cult leaders -- would be almost entirely empty. On the other hand, a minority view shows that a significant number of people feel that the category applies, and this works well. Al 21:22, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

There is no commonality between Ayn Rand and the other articles presently in Category:Cult leaders. — Centrx→ talk • 22:19, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

That turns out not to be the case. The commonality is that they've all been verifiably accused of being cult leaders by a notable minority. Al 22:21, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I actually think that you have made my point for me Kasreyn, probably without even trying. You used the example of category: War Criminals and mentioned attempts to add George W. Bush to that Category. Regardless of what any of us may or may not believe about GWB, he doesn't fit the category of War Criminal NOT because we are lacking a wide consensus of experts, but because he doesn't fit the requirement for the category: namely he has never been convicted of war crimes. Similarly Michael Jackson has never been Convicted of Child Molestation and is thus not included on our list: Category: Child Molesters. Cults and Cult leaders are a far stickier matter however. Being a cult leader, or being in a cult is not a crime for which one may be charged and convicted. There was NO clear consensus among experts and the media that Jim Jones was a cult leader until AFTER the Kool-aid incident. Of course there were SEVERAL well sourced, verifiable claims to that effect from creditable individuals; they were a very vocal minority, but a minority none the less. Using Jossi's proposed standards we would have 3 or 4 people on the whole list, including Jim Jones & Charles Manson. The disclaimer on the category clearly lists that the category consists of people who have been, or are alleged to be cult leaders. Even some of the most well known cults of our day have large numbers of supporters, does this mean they will be excluded? By definition, As AI mentioned above, Lists are NOT definitive statements of Truth, and also by definition everyone on the list, including Jim Jones HAS to be an "Alleged" cult leader. I would encourage all of you to take a look at the discussion that was linked to by Alienus. Our concern is that excluding someone from a list that is, by definition, composed solely of alleged Cult Leaders, on the basis that there is not a consensus of an Overwhelming majority is lending undue weight to the supporters of the accused. Our motivation is not, as Jossi has implied here, character assassination.-- Courtland Nerval 21:43, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

A person can still commit war crimes or molest children without having been legally convicted of it. A thief is still a thief regardless of whether he is caught, and many sources that fit Wikipedia:Reliable sources can label a person as such, yet he may not be convicted in a court of law. — Centrx→ talk • 22:45, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

ah but the requirements that have been EXPLICITLY put on THOSE lists do infact require them to have been convicted. WHy does that matter? because on THOSE LISTS we stated clearly what our criteria for inclusion were. ANd on the List of Cult leaders we disclaimed heavily. These have the same effect: they help to balance out to a NPOV. Again, lists are not claims of fact or truth but navigational tools.-- Courtland Nerval 23:01, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

There is no such a List of cult leaders. There is no Cult leader article. We are talking about a Category. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:06, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

If you read Wikipedia:Categorization_of_people#Inappropriate categories, you will find that the disclaimer is placed in categories where persons are there inappropriately, and should be removed. It signifies a problem to be corrected. Also, the disclaimer is not found on the individual articles. Placing an article in a category alongside totally unrelated articles does not help navigation. If a reader is looking for articles that are unequivocally and by all accounts exact instantiations of the meaning of "cult leader" or some other category name, finding tangentially related, tentative articles is not helpful. — Centrx→ talk • 23:17, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The difficulty with "disclaimers" is that in practice a lot of readers miss them or get hung up on negative connotations. How the encyclopedia is actually used should have some influence on how it is constructed. Even with a disclaimer, it would seem to me that a category with significant negative connotations should have proportionally strong criteria for inclusion. Gimmetrow 01:51, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

NPOV is non-negotiable. By adding a person to a category on the basis of a minority POV is a violation of policy. This idea that having one or two reliable sources is enough basis to include a person in a category about which there is considerable dispute and that carry extremely negative connotations, is in my opinion, a not-so-clever subterfuge to bypass WP:NPOV and encourage POV pushing. Let the dispute be described in the article, and the conficting viewpoints presented in the article. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:03, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. The fact is that WP:NPOV demands that we not censor significant minority views. For every cult leader (alleged or otherwise) there will always be followers who defend them. Let these people defend all they like, but let's also keep them far away from the categorization process, as their bias violates WP:NPOV. It is not a personal attack to point out that much of the opposition to this category has come from those who owe allegience to alleged cult leaders. Al 00:06, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

We are not censoring anything. The place to describe conficting viewpoints, is an article. Not a category in wich there is no possibility of presenting conficting views, as you are de facto asserting a minority POV as if it was the only one. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:09, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

As per your off-topic comment above, I would kindly request that you present your arguments without making characterizations of your fellow editors, or what you consider are their motivations. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:13, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Removing Ayn Rand from the list of cult leaders despite the presence of books and article by notable people is nothing short of censorship. Al 00:12, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Censorship? What censorship? See Ayn_Rand#Cult_accusations, and Objectivist_movement#Cult_accusations. That POV is fully described in these articles. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:16, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

As I've pointed out repeatedly, lists are for navigation. Removing Rand from the list prevents people from finding the article in the first place when they're looking for exactly this sort of thing. Al 00:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

(BTW, we are not talking about lists, but about categories). ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:23, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

What you are saying is that "I believe XYZ is a cult leader, and there are some books that describe XYZ as a cult leader, so I will place put XYZ in Category:Cult leaders, so when people come to WP to find out about cult leaders, they can find XYZ in the list". Is that a correct interpretation of your understanding? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:21, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

My belief has no bearing on this. What matters is that there are a number of books and articles demonstrating a clear minority view that Rand was a cult leader. This is sufficient basis for inclusion in the category, so as to allow researchers to find her when looking at others who have been called cult leaders. Al 02:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Your answers to my question above, has the potential to clarify this issue once and for all. Pity that you have chosen to ignore it. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:46, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I answered your question just fine, but not in terms of the words you wanted to to use. Al 04:34, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

NPOV that states "Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties"'. Could you tell us how your statement is compatible with that basic tenet, when in a Category you are presenting a minority POV in a very visible and obvious manner, as if it was the only or the prevalent POV? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 04:00, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

It's a bad idea to try to take rules out of context, and this is a fine example of why.

The text you quote is about statements of fact, requiring us to properly attribute views. A category tag isn't a statement of fact, though. What exactly it means depends on the explanation on that category page, but the fundamental purpose is to group articles that are related in some way. Another difference is that specific attribution to support inclusion is to be found in the respective articles, not in some central location (as it would be with a typical list). So, for example, someone reading Jim Jones might be curious about others who have been considered cult leaders, so they click on the category, see Ayn Rand and, upon arrival, find a neat section explaining the cult accusations. Al 04:34, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Think of the reader. She comes to a page about person XYZ and sees at the bottom of the article "Categories: Cult leader". Then she clicks on that link and sees a list of people about which there is wide consensus about being "cult leaders", such as Jim Jones alongside a list of people that have been characterized as such by a small group of people, a minority view. What you are telling this unsuspecting reader is that all these people are cult leaders.. A clear example of a fallacy of Guilt by association and a clear example of asserting the viewpoint of a minority as a fact. That, is the key point here which I argue it to be in contradiction with NPOV. Please address this concern. And also address the concern expressed before as this being an inviting open door for POV pushing by critics. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:13, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

That's not a realistic use case. If they start with Ayn Rand, any question about cult status will be answered in detail already. Al 05:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

This is not a discussion about Ayn Rand. You can discuss the specifics of that person at Talk:Ayn Rand]. The discussion here is the use/abuse of categories to bypass the non-negotiable policy of NPOV, by asserting a viewpoint about which there is no consensus with the intention of assasinating the character of persons by the use of the fallacy of guilt by association. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 14:18, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

You are once again mistaken. This discussion is about the repeated removal of persons from the Cult leaders category in a POV attempt at whitewashing. And, as we both know, that's not limited to Rand, nor is she your primary interest in this matter. Al 22:48, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Precedents

See for example, Category:Dictators, deleted first on September 2004, re-created again and deleted again on May 30, 2005, recreated again and deleted on May 2006. Reason for deletion: "Violates POV by endorsing a subjective view, which could never have unbiased criteria as to what a dictator is." At the same time, we have List of dictators, which has very specific criteria/treshold for inclusion needed to maintain NPOV, resulting in a very useful and encyclopedic list.

We need some wording added to NPOV to clarify to contributors, the proper use of categories and lists as it pertains to NPOV. Any proposals on how to address this in policy? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 14:18, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Precedents (2)

• Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial#Categorisation (suggested for comparison by Francis Schonken 16:30, 30 June 2006 (UTC))

I've taken a big gulp, and moved the entire FAQ answers (unchanged) to a separate page Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/FAQ, summarising the questions and linking to it in the main policy.

This is because, when you stand back and look at it, these are really essays and "chat", rather than policy. And no other policy page has nearly 18kbytes of FAQ's as part of the main body of the policy itself.

Part of why WP:NPOV is so long is it's trying to be chat and justification, and all I can think of is that's how it grew up, historically. But it's not really Wikipedia policy style in 2006. A crucial policy like this should be a summary that clearly sets out what is and isn't okay, how certain things are handled - in other words, policy. Explanation is part of that, but not 18k of FAQ's as an essay section at the end. Thats just not sensible.

FT2 ^{( Talk | email)} 23:45, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for addressing this. I think it works better. I will add a more prominent link to the FAQ. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I also think it's a good move, but we probably should put the policy tag on the FAQ page also, as I know a number of pieces of that material is cited as policy, and has had the detailed discussion to justify identifing it as that. Otherwise, great work in dividing it. JesseW, the juggling janitor 05:37, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Quick followup reorganization. No textual change to any section, just grouping the policy into major and minor sections by topic area.

I've simply reorganized the remaining sections to give the policy a more useful structure. Hopefully people are okay with a more structured NPOV policy layout.

The NPOV policy contains four main kinds of information:

1. Explanation of NPOV
2. Examples of how to write neutrally (characterize both sides, maintain fair tone, let facts speak for themselves, etc)
3. Appropriate handling of common NPOV situations (POV forks, undue weight, etc)
4. Discussion (history, examples, etc)

So I've simply reorganized the policy into main sections, because it's likely to be helpful to see a structure of such information in a major policy, rather than just a random order of information.

Two of the "examples" ("letting facts speak for themselves" and "attributing and substantiating biased statements") were actual explanations to the reader how to be neutral, not just "examples of it in the past". Hence moved to middle section.

No textual changes were made to any section, the wording has been left 100% unchanged, although some cleanup of the individual sections (separate "policy" and "discussion" from "chat") would probably be no bad thing in future if anyone feels its a good idea.

FT2 ^{( Talk | email)} 11:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Although the "Discussion" section title is not inappropriate for the content now gathered under that title, I'd avoid to use "Discussion" as a section title on the policy page, while confusing: the "Discussion of the WP:NPOV page" would normally refer to this talk page (and or its archives), and now, somewhat confusingly, it could also refer to a section on the policy page itself. I think I'm going to change the section title to "Rationale, history and example" or something in that vein for the time being. -- Francis Schonken 11:35, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

That'd make sense. FT2 ^{( Talk | email)} 11:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The section in the main article now only lists the objections without explaining why they are wrong. This is a serious one-sided gap, and can be confusing. — Centrx→ talk • 17:13, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Policies aren't essay or debating articles really -- especially not when the essays are discussion-chats 18 KB long. Thats not sensible. A list of questions with a bolded header saying "answers and discussions in /FAQ"... I don't think anyone's going to miss the point. Those who understand NPOV will understand it, those who don't will see where to go for more information on whatever their pet concern is. What's for sure is that 18 KB of chat just doesn't belong in the main policy. FT2 ^{( Talk | email)} 18:48, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Articles such as Criticism of Islam, Dhimmi CAIR have been flooded with POV-driven polemics. Dhimmi is a prime example. Almost all of the content of the article is founded in sources such as Bat Ye'or (if you don't know about her, see the talk page on Dhimmi. Articles on Islam or on topics related to Islam are flooded with anti-Muslim polemics and crititisms. If NPOV is non-negotiable, there must be actions that can be taken in this regard. Relying on the good faith of the partisan editors there isn't working. Any suggestions? His Excellency... 15:36, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that page has already been through mediation. Would a request for comment be the next step? Tom Harrison ^Talk 16:11, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Current under undue weight: "Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all (by example, the article on the Earth only very briefly refers to the Flat Earth theory, a view of a distinct minority)."

Suggest: "Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as majority views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all. By "majority" or "minority" we do not mean we take a poll of everyone in the world. Rather, a majority point of view is a majority of what reliable sources have to say on a given matter. The article on Earth, for example, only very briefly refers to the Flat Earth theory not simply because very few people believe in it but because virtually no reliable source will support the idea."

I think this is a "no duh" comment for most editors but I'm currently getting badgered by the fellow who was yapping about pseudoscience near the top of this talk a month ago. Rather then repeatedly explaining it in talk posts I think it good to make it explicit on the page. Anyone support this or am I missing the line where it's already state? Marskell 15:51, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

"Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties" partly addresses this. But the reference to reliable sources will make it all the clearer. Marskell 16:42, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, of course I would have to agree, since you told me you based it on this. :-) Jayjg ^(talk) 02:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I support Marskell's proposal. Kasreyn 10:22, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

My counter proposal (addition highlighted), to keep it simple and to the point:

• Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties as reported by reliable sources ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 14:35, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Simpler, but I still think we should explicitly define majority/minority and state clearly that we are not speaking about "the public at large." In fact, I think we should actually do it earlier by ditching (or unpacking) "popular" at the beginning in favour of a "majority of reliable sources". Marskell 14:11, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

We could just merge the second and third sentence: "Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as majority views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all. By "majority" view we mean a majority of what reliable sources have to say on a given matter. The article on Earth, for example, only very briefly refers to the Flat Earth theory not simply because very few people believe in it but because virtually no reliable source will support the idea." Slightly more to the point--is that OK with you Jossi? Marskell 17:06, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Any other comment before inserting this? Marskell 12:52, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I disagree with the wording because I think 'majority of populace' is much more the case than 'majority of reliable sources' when speaking about neutral point of view. NPOV is intended specifically to prevent the expression of viewpoints (or mis-weighting of viewpoints) contrary to the opinions of some sizable fraction of the public. Not some sizable fraction of 'news organizations' or other 'reliable sources'. There aren't alot of "reliable sources" which state the stoning story about Jesus and Mary Magdalene ('let he who is without sin cast the first stone') as fact, since it is a matter of religious belief, and quite a few which challenge that it was made up centuries later, but obviously any statement that 'the majority view (as stated in reliable sources) is that this did not happen', would not be anything remotely like neutral point of view. Reliable sources only cover things which can be verifiably proven... that's why they are 'reliable'. People's beliefs are something else altogether and it is those which our NPOV policy is directed towards. Wikipedia isn't supposed to be in the business of saying 'these beliefs are right' unless they are universally, or near universally, held by people... because otherwise we are not being neutral towards the people who believe otherwise. -- CBD 13:37, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

More people think that a supernatural deity created life than think it evolved by natural processes. Does that mean evolution should be considered the minority view for the origins of life then? Jefffire 14:23, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

This is a false dichotomy. Evolution is not an origin of life theory. The theory of evolution makes no claims, as far as I am aware, about how the very first living organism on Earth came about, merely how we arose from that organism. Kasreyn 22:54, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Obviously I expressed that wrongly. What I intended to say is what would be considered the majority view for the formation of modern life based on CBD's reasoning. Jefffire 11:42, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

But CBD how could we ever presume to present the views of the "majority of populace" without reference to a "majority of reliable sources"? A religious story should be presented as just that--a religious story. If we ever move from describing it to "X number believe it true, Y untrue" we will need to source that statement, right? Marskell 14:03, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

That really is a problem, as in most cases we have no reliable source that polled the "general" opinion. Regretfully that's not only true for religious beliefs, it's rather similar (although less marked) with scientific beliefs. If a prestiguous journal states something, does that prove that a majority of scientists agrees? Certainly not.

Probably it's better to replace "minority views" with "little known views", and contrast it with "popular views". Harald88 15:45, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

But that last suggestion assumes minority views are also little known. Per the Flat Earth example this is not necessarily the case.

And just to take a step back, I'm not suggesting "Wikipedia defines what is right and true based on a majority of reliable sources" but rather "the majority opinion" that way. Given "interpret the three content policies together", how could we define "majority" any other way? Marskell 16:58, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

(repeated edit conflicts) Surely a single reliable source could provide information on percentages of belief. However, even in the many cases where there are no 'polls' on a particular topic it should usually be possible to estimate how widespread it is within large bounds. NPOV is meant to help us present facts in a way that will not be disputed... but obviously if an individual reader believes that they are Napoleon then they might object to the accuracy of a good deal of the Napolean article - we needn't include that viewpoint because it just isn't common enough and if we included every unusual opinion the articles would be thousands of pages long. To take the evolution example above... both evolution and creationism have millions of adherents and thus I'd say both should be presented fully even if polls show one to be believed by 65% and the other 35% (or whatever). Only significantly less common theories, when there is a clear and overwhelming 'majority' view in favor of something else, should be cut down to a brief mention or removed entirely. Perhaps the 'majority' / 'minority' framework should be replaced by 'popularity' in general. I envision something like a 'rule of thumb' along the lines; if dozens of people believe something don't include it, if thousands of people believe something include a brief mention, and if millions of people believe it give the viewpoint equal time. Under this framework it doesn't matter if one view is held by 100 million and the other by 1 million, they are obviously both extremely popular and neither should be presented as a 'minor' view to be cut down or excluded... on the grounds that telling a million people their beliefs are wrong or not notable does not seem particularly neutral. -- CBD 17:36, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

When we start talking about estimates and rules of thumb CBD, we throw V and NOR overboard. Do you think we should allow editors to estimate without references (obvious violation of V) or to infer based on those that exist (subtle violation of NOR)? And you also seem to be putting words in the mouth of the suggested edit: of course we're not telling anyone they're beliefs are wrong!

Anyhow, part of the problem is that we use majority and minority on this page and not once stop to define them. Shifting towards "popularity" instead strikes me as wrong-headed: it's practically impossible to pin down popularity for "the public as such" and when we do we're almost always just talking about Americans, which is another problem altogether. And yes, per the Jimbo quote below, when "virtually all mainstream scientists" dismiss something that should properly be our "majority opinion" because a majority of our reliable sources are going to support it. Marskell 18:03, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Jimbo Wales explains it well: "if a view is held only by a few people without any traditional training or credentials, and if that view is dismissed by virtually all mainstream scientists, then we can say that, too." [1]

He didn't say anthing about sticking to percentages. -- Iantresman 17:45, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

All information in Wikipedia should be based on reliable sources, so surely there is no need to make a special emphasis in the section on Undue Weight. Perhaps someone can provide an example where the reliability of the source impacts on undue weight, rather than general inclusion? -- Iantresman 17:14, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

How about this

Rather than treating "majority of the public at large" and "majority of experts" as exclusive domains we need to chose between, how about acknowledging them together:

"Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as majority views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all. By "majority" view we mean a majority of what reliable sources have to say on a given matter, whether presenting popular opinion or the viewpoints of experts. The article on Earth, for example, only very briefly refers to the Flat Earth theory both because very few people believe in it and because virtually no reliable source will support the idea. Where popular and expert opinion is in opposition, as on certain science articles, viewpoints should be attributed accordingly."

I realize this a little longer but I think confronting the expert vs. popular fact is a good idea. Marskell 18:16, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

The wording around the 'we mean a majority of what reliable sources have to say' part is a little clunky, but overall this seems better to me. My point above was just that even if there are no reliable sources stating that something is true or even that many people believe it to be true that shouldn't be taken as grounds to exclude or minimize the issue if we know it is a commonly held view... the intent of NPOV always comes back to people, not sources. The policy is meant to avoid edit conflicts and offense to readers by presenting things in a way that nearly all people would consider 'neutral'. That generally requires inclusion of any reasonably popular viewpoint. While this isn't always quantifiable / becomes subjective it also isn't too difficult to detect disagreement. If one editor is complaining about improper exclusion of the view that 'Atlantis is where the aliens performed the genetic engineering which made us into humans' then it can be argued that this is just a very minor view that has not gained wide enough adherence to be included in an encyclopedia yet. If a dozen are saying that the 'controlled demolition theory of the WTC collapse should be included' then it is common enough / going to generate enough controversy that it should be given a brief mention despite not being extensively covered in 'reliable sources' (indeed, it is actually a 'majority' view in some regions of the world). If several dozen editors are disagreeing on 'intelligent design' over a period of weeks then there is a need for full presentation of all views. -- CBD 18:52, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Well now, there's a lot I'd like to respond to (particularly that know in italics--what do we know? :) but if this moves closer an acceptable edit I'll save the philosophy. I will only say this: that a dozen, two dozen, or a dozen dozen dozen people believe something should only be included if we can source it. Right? It's not the editor's call as to whether X number believe A, and in this regard I'll actually disagree with you on one thing: it always comes back to sources, not people.

Anyhow, that's sort of meta stuff. I was just thinking the above at least acknowledges a friction on this page (popular vs expert "majority") that needs acknowledging and I think the advice simple enough: "attribute accordingly". Marskell 23:05, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

The content we include needs to be based on reliable sources. The decision on how notable it is, in my opinion, does not. Things mentioned on thousands of independant 'non peer reviewed' web sites are still notable and can represent views held by a large number of people - even if no 'reliable source' has said that it is so. Again, the intent of NPOV is to avoid causing conflict or annoyance in readers by stating things which are disputed by a large number of people... if a Google search shows thousands of unique web pages where an opinion is expressed then that is a widely held opinion even if no 'reliable source' has reported on it. -- CBD 00:27, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

My concern is, I know of a fair number of articles where the precise problem is that few people are experts, but many people have opinions. In such circumstances, the known facts according to reputable sources need stating, and the public or non-expert views need acknowledging, but I'm wary of anything that would tend to equate those (on whatever side) who do in fact have some claim to knowledge, with "popular opinion". So this section seems wrong:

"By 'majority' view we mean a majority of what reliable sources have to say on a given matter, whether presenting popular opinion or the viewpoints of experts...Where popular and expert opinion is in opposition... viewpoints should be attributed accordingly."

The last part is vague enough to mean nothing (or anything) depending which viewpoint your latest POV warrior has, and the former part sounds like "treat them equally no matter where they come from". Here's my hand at a quick style of approach to this issue:

"In any subject, views can be notable or non-notable, and views can also be uninformed or have some claim to specialist knowledge or expertize. NPOV's guidelines for balance are broadly:

1. NPOV seeks to balance abnd represent contrasting views, all of which are treated with understanding and equal respect.
2. NPOV policy says we try representing views in a way that the shape of the debate itself is neutrally and fairly represented, with each side being given its "best shot". If the shape of the debate is itself disputed, then some discussion of the debate will be needed to place the different views in an agreed context, amicably compared.
3. In general, more notable views tend to overshadow views which have a low degree of uniqueness, importance or backing in the field. (Notable views are those which a person who is familiar with the field and does not "take sides", would be expected to be aware of, or which are influential or significant in some way).
4. In general, views by people with specialist knowledge represent the field, popular and less expert views represent popular (or non specialist) reactions to that field.

I think the biggest problem with NPOV in this area is its got two dimensions -- significance, and knowledge, its not just "more or less notable". That's partly why it's been hard to make a good wording work. FT2 ^{( Talk | email)} 23:46, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, for brevity's sake and combining a few things. "Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all. We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view, and views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. By "majority" view we mean a majority of what reliable sources have to say on a given matter. Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, always with reference to reliable sources. Public or non-expert views should be acknowledged and treated with respect though professional viewpoints are the foundation of encylcopedic presentation. The article on Earth, for example, only very briefly refers to the Flat Earth theory both because very few people believe in it and because virtually no reliable source will support the idea."

This probably isn't quite what CBD wants, but FT2 is right that we shouldn't "treat them equally no matter where they come from." Marskell 10:28, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I hope this is not a proposal to have Wikipedia reflect popular opinion. — Centrx→ talk • 03:56, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

No, the intent was more or less the opposite but now it's all confused :(. Marskell 08:21, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

My concern is that you cannot rely on "in proportion to what experts say". 2 quick reasons -- experts and other specialists often differ vehemently to the point that balance itself becomes hotly disputed, and/or, a lesser view may none the less require more space to explain itself.

Quick example -- homeopathy, a stable article. Experts mostly all concur its a waste of space except perhaps some minor effect. Practitioners (specialists in it) say it has value and works. The public view is divided. And beyond all of these, the article has to explain what it is, which may take 5 times as much space as describing the disputes about its validity. That's your typical "Major/minor/POV" scenario.

What I'd say is what I said above. Our job is to represent the subject *and* the debate. But I'd add that even if disputed, an articles 1st priority is to describe the subject it is about, even if its disputed. (if it isnt worth describing it should be AFD'ed). AFTERWARDS then neutrally characterizing the debate about it, and about interpretation and validity, is a different issue. Same for any disputed sub-section - describe it, then characterize the debate.

Any use? FT2 ^{( Talk | email)} 13:25, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm actually a little confused. "In proportion to" is actually the text as it stands, so are you taking issue with what we have now? Experts disagree? Ok: says so, present the major camps, source it. The unwritten part of the policy will always be common sense.

The central concern above, meanwhile, was defining "majority view" because this policy page shouldn't rely on wording it does not define. What's been teased out of that is friction between lay and expert opinion and IMO a need to fairly explicitly state that we should edit with the latter as a foundation. That's all the last suggestion is attempting. Marskell 14:32, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Quote: NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints, in proportion to the prominence of each.

Since NPOV does not appear to say anything about proportionality, isn't it more accure to write the following:

While NPOV states that an article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints, Undue Weight states each view should be in proportion to the prominence of each.

-- Iantresman 17:32, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Not sure thats whats undue weight should be routinely taken to mean -- see above. Is prominence always a good reflection of balance of space in a debate? Not from what I've seen. Its not about "space usage". Its about overall impression and balance, combined with explaining each side as it "needs explaining". However that may be. There may be less prominent views that need more space, for various reasons. Perhaps although less prominent they are more in line with whats known, perhaps they are instructive. A "space usage proportionate to importance" fails compared to a "space usage proportionate to fair need and balance"..... whatever that is. See above. FT2 ^{( Talk | email)} 02:59, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I think you're brought up another good point. Undue weight is NOT about providing viewpoints in proportion to one another. -- Iantresman 15:16, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

????? Undue weight is a very clear statement: Don't give undue weight to minority viewpoints. I am missing somethimg here? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:57, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

The stumbler here, in my experience, is in interpreting the words "in proportion to the prominence of each". It has in it the potential problem of sacrificing rationality in favor of polls and publicity, and potentially reducing NPOV to the "Google standard" of weighing the various POVs' allotment of space in a given topic... Kenosis 20:44, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Erk, now I'm going to sound like one of those NPOV hangers-on...but see above. We need to define "majority". It's not a popularity contest but rather what a majority of reliable sources say on a given matter. Marskell 22:02, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

• No, it's not about giving undue weight to minority viewpoints, it's about not giving undue weight to ANY viewpoint. Consequently omitting a viewpoint completely may give undue weight to the remaining viewpoints.
• And "in proportion to the prominence of each" does not satisfiy "undue weight". It doesn't mean we count words, and not write a sentence if only "three word" is exactly proportionate. -- Iantresman 22:21, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

(Do you have any food? I'm hungry after the soccer game).

We should omit extreme views. Indeed, we should have a group that hunts them down so that Wiki isn't (or doesn't continue to be) hijacked by cranks. One principle failing of Wiki is that it gives extreme views too much prominence (even Nature says so [2]). I have no problem giving extra weight to accepted theories by omitting fringe theories. We aren't in the business of OR. Get it published in an accepted journal and cited otherwise and then come back here.

In fact, per above, I think we need to make this point more clear. Marskell 22:32, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

The existing RFC/dispute structure handles that, if it's properly used by editors. We exclude meatpuppetry -- editors obtaining people to push a given POV into an article. Are you sure we want to encourage creation of a group whose job is to "hunt down" extreme views? That sounds dangerously close to a precedent for inadvertantly bringing in "Wikipedia approved" views by the back door in a few years. Its a dangerous line to take. It's probably better overall, if we teach editors to write neutrally, and make the dispute and RFC systems more effective and faster at handling POV-pushing when it comes up. FT2 ^{( Talk | email)} 15:01, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I was being facetious about starting an actual group... Although, you know, Wikipedia:POV Inquisition could get a lot accomplished given the right power. Marskell 15:09, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

(1) The Nature articles criticised giving "undue prominence given to controversial scientific theories" [3] which is not the same as omitting them. (2) We should also be aware that Nature is probably arguing a scientific viewpoint; but Wikipedia takes a Neutral Point of View, [4], not a scientific point of view. -- Iantresman 12:34, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure of the need for this new section "Balance". Do we really need it? I would argue that the description of NPOV is quite clear as is. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:07, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

It seems that there is ongoing problems with the topic. It's been a thorn in the NPOV policy issue for a long time. Whiule we might not be able to say what is fair, we can at least set out briefly, some principles to go by. The discussion is vague and not terribly helpful since all it really says is "judge whats a major and minor view and don't give "undue weight"... leading to editorial disputes. A summary somewhere that says "this is what is aimed for and broad principles, even if its hard to say exactly" would help a lot. There isn't one at present. The existing section isn't that.

Hopefully we can do more than just argue the subject endlessly on the talk page and actually state some key principles of what balance means, why articles need it, what issues have to be considered to get it, and then discuss at length later on. If you read it, its short but pretty helpful. The current text is longer and more of a discussion. That's the aim. FT2 ^{( Talk | email)} 00:18, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

While I agree that this has been a thorny issue, what we ought to consider is why. I would like to hear you opinion on the matter. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:25, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Honestly... and considering it directly... It seems that the problem is a deep-rooted inherent conflict. An encyclopedia (or at least this encyclopedia) should be neutral. That means we should be able to neutrally agree things without taking sides. But the shape of balance within an article is inherently a judgement. Someone, somewhere (or several someones), must consider what the shape of debate is in the subject, and deem certain views majority, certain minority, judge which are more widely or less widely held, and many other issues. The examples we give are things like "flat earth" where its easy. Usually it isn't. There is a judgement -- but there's also a fear that if we acknowledge it as a "judgement" rather than some objective representing of things, we would open the door to every minority as validating "their view is no less important".

So theres this conflict between what's obviously true, and the fear of saying it. In the end, theres judgement and as neutral as we want to be I don't think you can get away from it. Even "represent all views fairly" doesn't solve the problem because we have to decide, as editors, what is "fair", to do which we have to decide what is more or less accepted or credible... and yet Wikipedia is founded on the premise that we don;'t have to judge, all we have to do is neutrally present views. As soon as you move away from representing all views, some editors somewhere have to judge between views. Its schizophrenic in a way, because we as a community would like not to admit it. Realistically we often find neutrality and balance anyway. But yet, we "know what we mean" and it works well even despite that.

So my suspicion is that we can't really remove the element of judgement. Rather than avoid the issue, and give wooly wording, instead let's set out the broad principles that should be used to judge, that briefly summarize the key issues we're hope to address when we discuss "balance" or "undue weight". Majority views are in general (but not always) respected or wider spread. Minority views are in general less influential or respected. We aim to represent the balance and shape of a field to give a reader a good overview. These are things we can probably all agree upon, even if individual cases are subject to editor judgement and dispute at times. FT2 ^{( Talk | email)} 01:06, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and pulled the section on Balance out until it gets more of a discussion back here.

Balance

A cornerstone of writing neutrally is editorial balance between different views and perspectives. Sometimes known as "undue weight" or "majority/minority views", this is covered in more depth below, along with discussion how it is applied, but it is worth being aware of the following broad principles:

• The aim of this policy is to ensure editors strike a good balance that covers and represents all significant individual views fairly (including points for and against) and balances the article overall, so that it forms a good introduction and overview to a subject, fairly representing the various shapes of debate in the field.
• In general, articles should be respectful of all views, since no side is taken. The end-user, not the editor, is the judge.
• Most topics have multiple points of view. Some of these will be more accepted or more disputed (right/wrong). Some will be accepted by one group and not by another (different perspectives). Some will be more significant overall, in the field or topic (importance to field). Occasionally general perception will be in serious error or specialists views will go against accepted wisdom (honest representation over P.R.).
• An article (whatever the disputes in the field) usually starts by describing the views in a way that puts them "best foot forward". This is sometimes called "writing for the enemy", which is an attitude that takes practice. (One reason is that even criticisms only makes sense when set against a fair presentation of proponents' beliefs and reasons)
• In principle, a view which would be considered significant or respected in a field, by some hypothetical "consensus", is one that should come across as significant or respected. Usually (but not always) this will result in such views ending up with more space, more focus, or primacy.
• Because Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, there is a selection process. Views which fail to reach a certain level of value, significance, or broad respect in a field, even if possibly true, will usually be represented as minority views, sidelined, or even excluded. This is not a censorship policy. It has two purposes -- to ensure Wikipedia is not indiscriminate in its contents (lack of selectivity undermines its value as a source of knowledge), and to ensure the balance in the subject is not misrepresented by giving undue weight to a tiny-minority view.

-- Donald Albury^{( Talk)} 00:47, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment (continued):

The text (above) summarizes a few key things about balance and undue weight, which I think we can all pretty much agree. It summarizes six key features of the whole "majority/minority/notability/undue weight" debate:

• Overall aim (represent views and shape of debate fairly), and the purpose of this.
• Respect all views equally, letting user judge (and why).
• Multiple views often exist, accept it (and common reasons they come about).
• Each view described best foot forward /writing for enemy.
• Majority views (and how they can usually be reccognized) usually get primacy
• Minority views (and how they can be recognized) are often shortened, sidelined or omitted, and why this is done.

As such these six bullets form a short, concise, but valuable summary to editors of what NPOV requires when it comes to undue weight and balancing different views, even if the rest of the fine detail is still under discussion. They seem to be the six key points that are repeatedly agreed upon in Talk:NPOV. They are valuable because even if we can't all agree on the rest, editors who are guided by these six principles, will by and large not go too far wrong. So summarizing them like this in the policy is sensible. FT2 ^{( Talk | email)} 01:06, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, FT2, I don't follow. First you move out a large part of the content of the policy page to the /FAQ subpage. Good idea. The page had become too heavy over time. But then, I don't know why, you want to re-enter that same content, re-hashed. In that case I'd rather have the full content of the "objections and clarifications" section back. At least that's the way that content was shaped over time, with a lot of collaboration & consensus. If those "objections & clarifications" need shaping up, follow the normal processes please.

Sorry for being a bit negative. What I thought pretty much OK is the short sentence: "In general, articles should be respectful of all views, since no side is taken. The end-user, not the editor, is the judge." It's a rather good summary of what I tried to say above in the #Fairness and sympathy (2) section. As far as I'm concerned that sentence can go in the policy page without reserve. -- Francis Schonken 07:22, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I also don't follow. Having attempted due diligence in gaining consensus for an edit above I find the unilateral insertion rather odd (though it's been reverted for the time being). The addition as I see it is rather repetitive with what we have but still doesn't answer what has been a concern:

What is a majority view?

"In principle, a view which would be considered significant or respected in a field, by some hypothetical "consensus", is one that should come across as significant or respected" is something of a tautology and will probably invite more belly-aching.

Either by "majority view" we mean expert opinion (with reference to reliable sources) or we don't. We should simply say so. I don't see a full section as needed. Marskell 07:36, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

That partly is why its been such a problematic issue. We know what we want to achieve by our wording on undue weight and majority/minority, but for whatever reason, editors have found it extremely hard to word well. The problem is that a "majority view" is not necessarily "expert" nor "popular" opinion. What we're trying to say is, in general more respected and more expert views should usually be treated one way (more inflence on article and more primacy), and in general less acknowledged or less influential views another way (often minimized, sidelined or ignored), and why we do this.

We all seem to agree about that , and that's the heart of it. We have serious problems when we try and define this as an "expert" or "majority" view, and that's where it falls down. Because subject by subject, we want the "infuential" and "shaping" views and to "balance" the subject. That might be different approaches in different articles. We can agree that in any article, a more influential and more significant view should have more influence on the article, and have more primacy. We can agree a less influential and less respected view may be sidelined, marginalized, or ignored. We can agree that this is because of WP:NOT and for balance. So why not simply say that and be done? That's what we can agree on even if article by article we have to hammer out what views are "more influential" or "less acknowledged". FT2 ^{( Talk | email)} 08:49, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. Do we all agree? CBD would like to move more toward popular and away from expert. Others would like more wiggle room to include minority views, pseudoscience etc. I just think we need a decision and I think the above addition makes it less decisive by "talking around" the issue. Of course, we can qualify it with "different approaches in different articles" but the sentence "by 'majority view' we mean expert opinion (with reference to reliable sources)" is decisive in a way policy should be. It also has the benefit of being (IMO) in accord with Jimbo's commentary. Perhaps we need an (evil!) poll. Marskell 09:11, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

For any criteria that's been named in discussion, there are articles for which that criteria would misrepresent the shape of the debate, or the shape of actual knowledge, or the shape of opinion. A majority view isn't important because it is a majority per se. It's important because of the assumption (usually accurate) that it represents an influential and respected viewpoint, and for that reason is notable. An expert opinion with regard to reliable sources isn't important just because the people are "experts". It's important because of the assumption (usually accurate) that it is therefore a respected view and influential in the field. A tiny minority view is less notable not because it is right or wrong per se or because it lacks reliable sources, but because its small support suggests (usually accurately) that is not as respected or influential in the field. All the criteria proposed seem to come down to that one view -- is it influential and respected in the field. FT2 ^{( Talk | email)} 11:11, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

"Influential and respected in the field" is just another way of saying "expert". Of course, you can have experts in the minority and we can include those where sourced. But in both cases majority/minority is defined in relation to experts. That's all I think we should add (though I think I'm whistling into the wind at this point). Of course, we can have caveats: for popular culture say (where the "majority" more naturally fits "popular majority") and for articles on religion or values (where the idea of both "expertise" and "popularity" are less applicable). Marskell 12:13, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

"Experts" and "influential/respected" are often not the same. One persons expert is another persons pseudoscientist or activist. We can look at someone and say objectively whether they are influential in a field by the impact of their life and work. "Expert" is more a judgement of their viewpoint. For example, I can deny someone is an expert in my religion, and yet concede that they seem to be influential in it. If the guideline is "expert" views get more primacy, then we will argue over who is to be considered a "legitimate expert" and whether they are or not. It is far more likely people on very different sides will be able to agree over whether someone is influential in a field, which can be shown pretty conclusively by citable evidence alone, rather than by editorial judgement. It has the value of words like "expert" without their disadvantages. I think it's possibly a better choice of wording. FT2 ^{( Talk | email)} 15:08, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, agree to disagree I suppose. If I'd suggest a difference at all it is that expert implies a kind of credentialled influence. "Smith is one of the most influtential ufologists of the last thirty years. So what if he's not an 'expert'?". Well, if his influence hasn't shown up in peer-reviewed work (ie., he is not an expert in the professional sense) he doesn't belong (except perhaps in an article about himself). See this for more ;). Marskell 15:26, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

That works for bodies where there is a clear consensus or basis for judging expertize. But NPOV has to operate in other articles where that's far from sure. There are subjects where those who are widely believed to be experts are in fact not, and subjects where academic credentials are no indication of influence in the field. Try taking "undue weight" to an area where such things are more grey and less defined, and it turns out that you can't say for sure which views are those of an "expert". But you can still easily say which views are "influential" in the field. FT2 ^{( Talk | email)} 19:42, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

In the grey areas the clarity of credentials becomes all the more important. Per above, I'd hate to find us including "influtential" pseudoscientists and I don't really share your faith that people will easily agree on who is and is not influential without reference to standard "expert" criteria (education, publications etc.). Marskell 16:49, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Human knowledge is a combination of expert views and popular views. Wikipedia already notes that the "neutral view" is preferable over the scientific view. Jimbo also notes that "if a view is held only by a few people without any traditional training or credentials, and if that view is dismissed by virtually all mainstream scientists, then we can say that, too." [5]. He doesn't say that we exclude such views. The only requirement a view is verifiability (of the view). -- Iantresman 11:43, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not note that the neutral view is preferable over the scientific view. It notes that formally adopting an SPOV is unnecessary because an NPOV allows an SPOV to be adequately explained. As noted extensively at the top of this page, the science view (more accurately, scienctific methodology) largely coincides with our policies. Marskell 12:13, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Correct Wikipedia does not say that. But the outcome is the same. NPOV is preferred over the scientific point of view. -- Iantresman 12:47, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Most of the time the two are one in the same. Jefffire 14:52, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. -- Iantresman 16:40, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Human knowledge is a combination of all views (expert/popular is a false dichotomy), and it's the job of editors to be choosy (in other words, to edit both by inclusion and by exclusion). The "balance" section described above says two contradictory things: "In general, articles should be respectful of all views" and "views which fail to reach a certain level...will usually be represented as minority views, sidelined, or even excluded." When Ian quotes Jimbo Wales saying "if a view is held only by a few people...we can say that, too," and Ian reaches the conclusion "The only requirement a view is verifiability (of the view)," Ian seems to be pretending that Wales has said "should" instead of "can." Wales doesn't say we exclude or include. Whether a view is included or excluded is up to the editors based on the specific issue under debate, not on policy. This is because policy is contradictory, as it should be, and may be used to support inclusion or exclusion. Flying Jazz 19:59, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

• Indeed. But Jimbo applies the judgement call to views ".. held only by a few people without any traditional training or credentials", ie. extreme minority views. But editors are applying the same discretion to significant minority views. And consequently we have many scientific articles which are pretty much presented as "truth", with little dissenting criticism, let alone significant alternative views. -- Iantresman 20:43, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

We're here to write good encyclopedia articles. That requires flexible application of policies on a case-by-case basis. What one person calls significant may be called extreme by another person. The presentation of a scientific article with little dissenting criticism is not an indication that the article is presented as "truth." In an ideal situation when a lot of good editors are present, a scientific article with little dissent will be an indication that the editors reached a consensus that the reader would be best served by an article presented this way because the alternatives have failed to reach a sufficient "level of value, significance, or broad respect in a field." In the worst situation when only a tiny number of not-so-good editors are present, then a scientific article with little dissent might just reflect the opinion of the person who makes the most edits or is most intimidating or has the most time on his hands to make reverts and engage in long talk page debates. That is why talk-page behavior should encourage community-building. Flying Jazz 03:54, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Since WP:NC moved from being a guideline to a policy it can potentially come into conflict with WP:NPOV. If this subject is of interest to you please share your opinions at WP talk:NC#NPOV and naming convention conflicts -- Philip Baird Shearer 11:47, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Which of the following is more in keeping with NPOV:

"We can write with the attitude that such-and-such is a good idea."

"We can write without asserting that an idea is good or bad."

The latter I find far more in keeping with the rest of the page. It strikes me as bizarre that we would allow a paragraph advocating a sympathetic point of view in the middle of our description of the neutral point of view. Marskell 08:20, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. -- Donald Albury^{( Talk)} 10:18, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I also agree and would support this, however it appears from article page history that there may be some dissenting views. I would prefer this be fine tuned here rather than edit warred over there. KillerChihuahua ^?!? 11:39, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the issue here is what for lack of a better word I would call "situational sympathy." I do not know if anyone has written on this, but pretty much every academic - lecturer or writer - understands the idea: to present views not our own, even ones we are opposed to, sympathetically. We need to be clear about semantics here. "Sympathy" does not mean "agreement," it means that I understand what the other person (or source of a view) means or is trying to communicate and I understand why. This is very important for two reasons. first, as a habit it helps prevent our (e.g. a university lecturer, or the author of an encyclopedia article) bias from coming through. Second, the more sympathetically we can present a view, the more likely we are to present it accurately and in a form others can understand. It is good practice and does not in any way compromise neutral point of view. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:36, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Too often, editors' attempts to present a POV they disagree with are curt and mealy-mouthed, and it shines through that the position is not one they wish to dwell upon. Perhaps a sentence about "situational sympathy" would help to clarify? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 15:40, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I think the underlying issue here is simple: antipathy to a view can actually lead to a misunderstanding of the view. We all want to be able to assess views objectively and decide whether we agree with them or not based on reasonable criteria. But one cannot even do this if they do not understand the view. NPOV does not just mean presenting different views. it is no good to present a view if it is presented inaccurately. NPOV means providing views accurately. Sympathy - which means understanding, not agreement - is a way to present a view accurately and, well, neutrally. We can all agree that "understanding" and "agreement" mean different things. Isn't it clear in the policy that "sympathetically" means "with understanding" and not "with agreement?" Slrubenstein | Talk 15:52, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, there are two parts to the suggested edit:

• Replacing "good idea" with "asserting neither good nor bad"—I find this one inarguable in keeping the page consistent, but maybe that's just me.

• Replacing "sympathetically" with "sensitively." I understand your point Slr, but our readers are not academics. People are going to interpret that according to common usage (say points 1 and 2 here). This plus the fact that sympathy is used in a contrary sense at the top (neutrality...neither sympathetic nor in opposition to...) and I don't think it belongs in this section.

Per Slim, a sentence on "situational sympathy" could go in the "Writing for the enemy" FAQ and be linked to from this section. Marskell 15:49, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to know what others think, I have pretty much stated my position. I just want to register, Slim used the word "sympathy," not "empathy." Empathy means feeling what another person feels. Sympathy means understanding how another person feels. Empathy is irrelevant to our project, I believe sympathy however is very useful. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:54, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

A slip, sorry. "Sympathy means understanding how another person feels." It can also be deployed to indicate partisanship and agreement (what is a "sympathizer"?)--it is in this sense that I interpret don't be "sympathetic" near the top. Marskell 16:00, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I think that 'sympathetic' will convey the wrong connotations to too many editors. The idea is important, however, and we need to work on the expression. -- Donald Albury^{( Talk)} 18:17, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I chose "sensitively". We could actually use sympathetically and unpack it: "...let's present ideas sympathetically: not that we agree or disagree, but that we understand the position expressed and attempt to properly express it." Dunno. Something like that. I've obviously got a burr in my saddle, but "the attitude that such-and-such is a good idea" is not what we need. It's a perfect example of a line a troll/POV enthusiast can pick up and run with ("No, haven't you read NPOV? We're supposed to be sympathetic, not critical!") Marskell 21:52, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

"Sensitively" does the trick for me. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:30, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

What about moving from "good idea" to "neither good nor bad"? Does that work for you Jossi? Marskell 17:37, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

• I removed this last sentence from NPOV because it has ABSOLUTELY NOT RELEVANCE to Undue Weight.

• The argument that "there is no consensus" to remove it demonstrates the STUPIDY of the consensus. Surely we're not claiming that even though the sentence probably does not belong here, we can't remove it until everyone agrees it does not belong.

• The argument that it "breaks the link" between WP:NPOV and Verifiability and No original is GARBAGE. (1) The link between these policies is made in the second paragraph of NPOV. (2) Such a link does NOT BELONG in Undue weight. Any "fact" that fails the "No original Research" policy will NEVER be considered for Undue weight. -- Iantresman 10:42, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

As WP is governed by consensus, you can't just ignore the principal when you don't like the results. You say the sentence probably does not belong here, but Francis Schonken obviously disagrees with you. You can be bold, but any change made to a policy or guideline without prior consensus is fair game for reversion. -- Donald Albury^{( Talk)} 14:37, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Francis did not appear to disagree. He mentioned consensus and connection with other policies. But consensus by itself is no reason, and I actually agree with his link to other policies, pointing out that the connection is already made, and the placement of the sentence is incorrect. -- Iantresman 14:58, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Having a go at "undue weight" again? Give it a rest. Oh, and BTW, no. FeloniousMonk 16:35, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

An explanation would be appreciated. "No" shows disagreement, but no reason why. How is this sentence related to Undue Weight? -- Iantresman 17:44, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

It's so odd. I was just hunting for this line to quote to a bullshit artist on a talk page. Leave it in please. Marskell 17:35, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I have no problems with the sentence elsewhere. But it does not belong in undue weight. -- Iantresman 17:44, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't, and still am not convinced by your arguments. Certainly not by arguments that contain upper case neologisms like "STUPIDY".

See above #Verifiability / Undue weight improvement for my arguments. For clarity I add: I think it a good idea that the "Undue weight" section points to the concepts of the WP:NOR and WP:V policies. Such link is on its place there: it clarifies which items "should not be represented at all" in Wikipedia, so it explains the last comment in the preceding paragraph on the WP:NPOV page. -- Francis Schonken 18:11, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

And to state the obvious: premiering a proof unpublished elsewhere is probably the most obvious example of giving undue weight imaginable. Marskell 18:18, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. But premiering one's own material is rejected on grounds of (a) No original research, and (b) Verifiability. Surely it never gets to be considered for undue weight. Arguably, all other kinds of unsuitable material seeen at " What_Wikipedia_is_not" could then be listed on the same grounds. But they're excluding before such consideration. I think this causes confusion between wholly unsuitable material, and tiny minority views that are suitable but may not be included. -- Iantresman 18:59, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

It is very common for people who have just managed to get their New Great Thing on the project to spam it everywhere. Just zis Guy you know? 21:00, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, and the policy on No Original Research explains why it is not suitable for Wikipedia, and the second paragraph of NPOV points people to No Original Research. Such unwanted text is not considered under Undue Weight, just as everything listed under " What Wikipedia is not" is not considered under Undue Weight.-- Iantresman 08:48, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

The line about No original research is out of place in Undue weight. Why not include a line about "No sock puppets", or "No vandalism" also? Bensaccount 00:42, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I have had to restore contributions I made three times now. The article is about Steve Sailer. PLease explain why and how I have violated the NPOV policy! -- Zaphnathpaaneah 04:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I think this would be more properly dealt with on that article's talk page, or even the Request for Comment page, though that's generally for stuff a bit more serious than that. In response to your question though, are long quotations actually suitable as article sections? Wouldn't they be better placed on, say, Wikiquote, or in the reference section as is done in other locations in the article? And what does this have to do with POV in the first place? -- tjstrf 05:35, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Is the majority view, same as the view of the majority of scientific community? For example, in a survey by the NSF [6], 60 percent of surveyed Americans said they believe in extrasensory perception. The majority of the scientific community says that it doesn't work. So in this case what's the majority view? Just to make it abosulutely clear, can include majority(scientific) instead of majority in the NPOV section? Vorpal Blade ^{snicker-snack} 15:56, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

When the topic is science, yes. FeloniousMonk 16:11, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

What about pseudoscience, like astrology? I find this tricky to understand. For example, some objections I've come across to the majority of the scientific community view point in such topics includes,

* Pseudoscience is offensive a POV label. So it should be removed as per WP:NPOV.

* You must cite a source before labelling as pseudoscience. (Although, it's so obvious in scientific circles that few scientific institutions bother to make such a statement)

* Most scientists don't know anything about how the pseudoscience works, so they are not experts to comment on that subject.

I think we should change the NPOV:undue weight policy to include the words "majority(scientific)" instead of "majority". Vorpal Blade ^{snicker-snack} 16:31, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

To your first question: If the scientific community says a particular notion is pseudoscience, NPOV: Pseudoscience tells us "The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly." This would then mean that NPOV: Giving "equal validity" comes into play, which says "Please be clear on one thing: the Wikipedia neutrality policy certainly does not state, or imply, that we must "give equal validity" to minority views. It does state that we must not take a stand on them as encyclopedia writers; but that does not stop us from describing the majority views as such; from fairly explaining the strong arguments against the pseudoscientific theory..." If proponents of a particular notion viewed as pseudoscience by the scientific community claim it is valid science on par with accepted scientific theory (accepted by the scientific community), since the scientific community rejects this claim that means that the notion a the minority view in the field in which is stakes a claim, science. NPOV: Undue weight says "Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views..." Finally, NPOV: Making necessary assumptions on "What about the case where, in order to write any of a long series of articles on some general subject, we must make some controversial assumptions? That's the case, e.g., in writing about evolution. Surely we won't have to hash out the evolution-vs.-creationism debate on every such page?" tells us "No, surely not. There are virtually no topics that could proceed without making some assumptions that someone would find controversial. This is true not only in evolutionary biology, but also in philosophy, history, physics, etc."

Your claim that "pseudoscience is offensive a POV label, and should be removed" is missing the point. As long as it is verifiable and attributed per WP:V and WP:RS it is fair game for inclusion. That those to whom the label is applied find it offensive is also fair game for inclusion. FeloniousMonk 16:49, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

It's not his claim, Felonious. It's a comment that's been thrown in his face. He's right. The policy does not adequately define the term "majority" at present and it needs to. Marskell 17:10, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

"Majority (scientific) is too narrow, however. I think the rule shoud be that in fields that have peer-reviewed journals, we should go with the majority of authors that publish in said peer-reviewed journals, but that still leaves a lots of subjects hanging. I don't know if we should try to be more specific than "majority". I don't think tacking an adjective on the word is really going to help us. -- Donald Albury^{( Talk)} 17:56, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Marskell's point is the same point raised time and again by pseudoscience proponents here and at the relevant articles. Nevertheless, the policy very specifically spells out how to deal with NPOV and pseudoscience and has stood for a very long time as a key element of the policy, enjoying broad acceptance. Any redefinition of what constitutes the "majority" in pseudoscience articles runs the risk of weakening NPOV not strengthing it, and is exactly what we've seen in all of the proposals from that faction so far. FeloniousMonk 18:15, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

That's an ad hominem argument. It shouldn't matter whether "pseudoscience proponents" have made the same point as Marskell. The only question is whether Marskell's point makes sense.

Or did you mean that if Marskell's point was conceded, it would raise pseudoscience to the same status as science? -- Wing Nut 14:39, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

When describing pseudoscientific subjects, isn't the issue whether the scientific view is indeed the majority view? I think it is likely that astrology is believed by more people that there are scientists. So to say that "the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view" is misleading. The task is to represent the majority view, irrespective of whether it is the scientific or non-scientific view. Certainly more astrology is published than there are "refutations" of astrology, and so-called "astrologers" (the experts?) out-number scientists (non-experts), significantly. -- Iantresman 19:35, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I suppose that depends on whether you want to write an encyclopedia, or an expanded on-line version of Weekly World News or the National Enquirer. •Jim62sch• 21:47, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

May I say Felonious that you have an odd habit of assuming motives... I'm certainly not raising it as a pseudoscience proponent but because pseudoscience proponents are difficult to deal with. Now, if you're fond of circular logic, you'll find a way to push your pseudoscience POV regardless of what this page says. But the fact is we introduce "popular" and "majority scientific" on this page but never properly tackle the fact that the two are not synonymous. That's a perfectly fair criticism--perhaps one reason it keeps getting raised. Marskell 20:17, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, regardless of whether a pseudoscience proponent, Nobel prize winning scientist, or Communist, raises a point concerning policy, the point is still the same. -- Iantresman 23:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

The reasoning behind "The task is to represent the majority view, irrespective of whether it is the scientific or non-scientific view." is terribly flawed. Pseudosciences claim to be legitimate science, making the viewpoint of the scientific community the only relevant viewpoint. Afterall, the general public does not practice science, nor does it have a role in determining what is and isn't legitimate science.

Iantresman's explanation also directly contradicts this very policy, which states "The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly." FeloniousMonk 23:48, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

And WP's task is not deciding what's legitimate but reporting what is. So Iantresman is right: if the majority opinion is that the Earth is flat, and that could be supported by reliable sources, then WP should report it so. "The scientists' view of pseudoscience can be clearly, fully, and fairly explained to believers of pseudoscience," so there is no need to censor.

Moreover, scientists generally don't get involved in "pseudoscience," so it follows that they hold no authority over it. In that respect, the majority opinion is almost always coming from proponents of "pseudoscience."

Also, I don't believe that the Pseudoscience section of NPOV policy "has stood for a very long time as a key element of the policy, enjoying broad acceptance". It is true that it has been virtually unchanged since its inception, but it has also been under continuous attack from various sides (see e.g. the persistent attempt to remove the associated category). It's a badly written section, clearly violating WP:NPOV. Aquirata 00:13, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Er, so you agree with the first option in my comment below? We describe the misconception as the majority POV and leave it at that? Guettarda 00:15, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, first of all, why do you think it's a misconception? Because scientists tell you so? How many times have been scientists wrong? Even in their own fields? How far reaching is science? Can it embrace all human experience?

Secondly, no, we don't leave it at that. Describe both points of view with due weight, and let the intelligent readers decide for themselves. Aquirata 00:19, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Scientists have been wrong, very few times about stuff, mainly becuase of the way the scientific method works. The fact that you need experimental evidence for any hypothesis to validate gives you the accuracy about how science describes how the world works. Whenever science has been wrong, it's the scientific body which figures out and corrects the error. The ability of science to judge the validity of any topic, from a scientific viewpoint is not in question here. We should emphatically not represent both views with the same weight, as one view is much much more credible than the other. Presenting both views with the same weight would destroy the accuracy of this encylopedia, and mislead the layman reader. Vorpal Blade ^{snicker-snack} 16:09, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

When you are talking about a scientific topic, the "majority opinion" refers to the majority of scientists. Scientists who work on or have a connection with a specific topic should will always be a tiny minority. In addition, incorrect or misleading information cannot be presented on equal footing with peer-reviewed science. Take photosynthesis, for example. The end product of photosynthesis is glucose, right? Almost everyone who knows what the end-product of photosynthesis is will tell you that. But, it's probably wrong. Free glucose isn't produced, starch is the end product. If most people have a misconception about a scientific topic do we, in the interest of NPOV follow the majority opinion and say that photosynthesis produces glucose, and then mention the "minority POV" that scientists who actually work on photosynthesis believe that starch is the end product (balanced so as to not give the tiny minority undue weight, of course)? Or do we allow scientists to speak for their science, at the danger of embracing so-called "SPOV" and call a misconception a misconception? Guettarda 00:11, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

By your reasoning then proponents of "pseudoscience" should be left to speak for their own field, which is the point I was making above. Aquirata 00:16, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

No. The question of "what is science" belongs in the hands of the people who study that (philosophers of science) and people who use it (scientists). One can't come along and say "I am doing science" if you aren't doing science. There is no need to "accept" the label of pseudoscience - you can stop claiming that what you're doing is science, or you could start doing science. Non-astrologers (to pick a group at random) don't have a right to say what astrology is or isn't. But astrologers can't claim that astrology is science if they don't follow the scientific method. At least the ID proponents are trying to re-define science to fit their usage. It doesn't make what they do science, but at least they acknowledge that there's a difference between the way that science is defined and they way they want to define it. If you call what you're doing scientific without adhering to the scientific method, it's fair to call what you are doing pseudoscience. No-one is forcing you to call what you do science if it isn't... Guettarda 03:51, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

You said: "allow scientists to speak for their science", but you don't want to allow others to speak for their discipline? This is a self-contradiction.

You seem to assume that the world can be divided between science and pseudoscience. There is much more to it than that. Something like astrology doesn't suddenly become "pseudoscience" just because the scientists cannot make sense of it. It is a currently being debated whether the scientific method is applicable to certain topics. There are some good references on the Astrology page if you are interested in pursuing this line of thought. The bottom line is that science has its own limitations and cannot claim absolute knowledge on everything. Therefore, classifying anything "pseudoscience" without studying the discipline in question is simply an attitude problem and has nothing to do with science or whether the topic is scientific. Aquirata 10:28, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

It may be currently debated whether the scientific method is applicable to certain topics or not, but as in most cases of pseudoscience, the majority of this argument takes place among the pseudoscience proponents. Yes, science has its own limitations and cannot claim absolute knowledge on everything, but, when there is concrete evidence conducted via experiments that certain topics, such as astrology, are most probably wrong according to the majority of the scientific community, we must present that as the majority view. Remember, it's the scientific community, not the proponents, which has the say on the validity of any subject, when looked from a scientific perspective. Vorpal Blade ^{snicker-snack} 16:00, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• FeloniousMonk, I understand your point of view, and I think I agree with what policy is trying to say; but my point is that policy says it in a poor way, to the extent that it actually appears to claim that the majority view is implied to be the scientific view, which it is not always.
• I think it is quite likely there are more non-scientists believing in astrology than scientists. However, it is likely (obvious!) that a majority of scientists have investigated astrology scientifically that non-scientists.
• So although I have a scientific backfound myself, and don't "believe" in astrology, it still doesn't give scientists a right to claim a majority view... even though we "know" that we are right. -- Iantresman 00:29, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand what you are proposing. Are you proposing that we should describe Astrology as "science"? Kasreyn 01:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Um, what part of "The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories" is unclear? It's black letter policy, absolute and non-negotiable. Learn to love it. FeloniousMonk 05:03, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Using astrology as an example, you can state "Astrology is a system in which the positions of celestial bodies is interpreted as a signifying human personality and human affairs... ... ...Most scientists consider astrology as not a valid predictor of knowledge because the current position of stars is different from its perceived position from earth due to the speed of light (or something)." You can state what astrology is neutrally—and both the astrologist and the astronomer can agree—and then describe the problems with it in terms of who is making the objections and what the objections are, without saying "Astrology is a collection of pseudoscientific beliefs totally discredited by modern science." — Centrx→ talk • 04:01, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

That's a bit of a straw man objection. It's irrelevant whether it's discredit or not. It's possible for the scientific method to lead to the wrong answer and pseudoscience to lead to the right answer. Pseudoscience is a descriptive term for somethings which seeks to pass itself off as science without adhering to the methodology of science. It has nothing to do with it being credit-worthy or discredited. It's like this guy "Buckingham" who was an American claiming to be a Brit. We can't say that "he claims he is a British lord, but the British government alleges that he is not". That would be nonsense. Saying that astrology shouldn't be called pseudoscience is like saying that guy shouldn't be called an imposter, because it might hurt his feelings. Guettarda 04:28, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

If the guy is only notable because he claims to be a British lord, then it would be reasonable to start the article "Buckingham is a man who claims to be a British lord, and has gone on all sorts of wild adventures about it, including this one where the British government arrested him at the airport because he was lying". If he is notable for something else, then the article would start off that way and put the rest in a section.

Astrology, however, is not fundamentally notable because of being a pseudoscience. If you look it up anywhere, it starts off "Astrology is a type of divination that involves the forecasting of Earthly...", or "Astrology is the art of judging of the reputed occult and non-physical influences of the stars and planets upon human affairs; star-divination, astromancy." Astrology is not by definition a pseudoscience; it existed and was the same thing as it is now hundreds—or thousands—of years before science could make any definitive statements about the stars. Based on what it is and what we know about science, it is, secondarily, a pseudoscience. ::For an analogy of the kind of definition, in something non-contentious, the first line in Fallout shelter used to say "A fallout shelter is a civil defense measure intended to reduce casualties". That is a description that could apply to just about any civil defense measure, and it does not describe what it is, it merely puts it into a large category, as "astrology is a pseudoscience" would put astrology in a category with ESP and the like. What it actually is, is "a shelter specially designed to protect its occupants from the radioactive debris". — Centrx→ talk • 05:30, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

All of which is totally beside the point. The policy is very clear: represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view and to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly. . FeloniousMonk 05:46, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

My comments are all consistent with the policy. — Centrx→ talk • 07:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• The majority view is NOT always the scientific view, which is not to say that we don't know what policy is trying to see. Since this could be corrected/clarified, there is no need to leave in an apparent inaccurate statement... it is unscientific.
• The statement concedes the "the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view", and should also concede "the majority (sometimes/often scientific) view" -- Iantresman 08:33, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

So you say. That's nowhere in the policy: represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view . . . explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. FeloniousMonk 15:09, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

If you can get user Aquirata to understand that this is what our page actually states you'll have my eternal gratitude. Marskell 16:04, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

If Aquirata is ignoring the NPOV policy at an article please document it with diffs at his user conduct RFC: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Aquirata. If it amounts to an ongoing pattern of ignoring policy and disruption WP:DR provides for next steps to get him in line. If he's blatantly disruptive, notify an administrator or leave a note on my talk page and I will. FeloniousMonk 19:46, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

As I've said before, the majority view is what the majority of reliable sources say on a matter. We can't take a poll of every person on earth regarding their opinions on a topic, and the results wouldn't be meaningful even if we did. For example, even if the "majority" of people believe that the Great Wall of China is the only man-made object visible from the moon, we don't put into the article that the "majority view" is that it is visible from the moon; instead, we quote what experts have said on the subject - in this case, people who have actually been in space and looked for it. The opinions of experts really do matter, and it's those opinions we canvas when trying to decide on "majority" and "minority" opinions. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:15, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

In addition, if a reliable source describes the fact that the majority of people believe that the Great Wall of China is the only man-made object visible from the moon, we can include that as well. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 19:29, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, but the majority of reliable sources is not necessarily the scientific view, as infered by the statement above. For example, there must be more non-scientific books claiming that there Capricorns are great lovers, than there are scientific studies showing that they're not. -- Iantresman 19:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

None of which has anything to do with how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories, which is the only relevent viewpoint as to whether they are presented here as pseudoscientific or not. FeloniousMonk 20:03, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Of course scientists receive and judge pseudoscientific ideas. It's just that it is not necessarily the majority point of view. -- Iantresman 20:54, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

As to what constitutes pseudoscience it is. The policy is clear and unambiguous: "The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly." This discussion, like all the others on undue weight raised by pseudoscience advocates filling up the archives of the last 7 months (tripling the number of pages for the previous 3 years archived!), is fruitless. It is bedrock, black letter policy. It's time to move along and free up this page for other topics, again. FeloniousMonk 21:50, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I do agree that the policy is sound and clear. My only suggestion had been to include Jayjg's actual sentence "the majority view is what the majority of reliable sources say on a matter" in undue weight itself. Marskell 21:55, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

FeloniousMonk, did you really suggest that (a) anyone who questions Undue Weight is a "pseudoscience advocate"? (b) That policy is "clear and unambiguous" despite 7 months of queries from others -- Iantresman 23:00, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

A quick scan of the archives and it is apparent to any objective observer that the same names are associated with the same issue over and over: Iantresman, Aquirata, -Lumière/Étincelle/Lumiere. These are pro-pseudoscience editors. The majority of the queries are by the same or other pro-pseudoscience editors. There's an obvious pattern, and this crowd has been asked time and again to stop whipping a dead horse and drop the issue by many editors here over the months, and it's time again to say it: Drop the issue, stop whipping this dead horse, move along and free up this page for other topics. FeloniousMonk 23:15, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Why do I get the impression that in the context of this argument, "psuedoscience" is being used as a codeword for Creationism? Keep those controversies to their own articles, please. -- tjstrf 23:28, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

FeloniousMonk, is that your best argument, to call editors "pro-pseudoscientist", merely because they are trying to clarify areas of policy? Ironic than an editor claiming to uphold policy has to resort to ad hominems (that's a policy by the way), rather than responding in a civil manner (that's another [policy by the way) to editors who are treating you with the respect you would expect yourself. -- Iantresman 23:44, 13 July 2006 (UTC)