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... don't work, so personally I'd propose to omit WP:NPOVUW entirely from the policy page. Maybe it should better be proposed for MfD or so, per Wikipedia:Redirect#When should we delete a redirect?, reason 2, that is: "confusing" (it creates the confusing, and incorrect, idea that the shortcut actually links to the UW section, someone not knowing that was the intention can only be more confused when reading the "NPOVUW" acronym, and when clicking arriving at the top of the NPOV page, where the "UW" is nowhere explained). And overall, i think NPOVUW to be a horrendous acronym, in the WP:WOTTA meaning. -- Francis Schonken 21:32, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Would it be ok if I were to tag chinese ctities under Category:Taiwan as the goverment of Taiwan ( Republic of China) claims to rule mainland china? -- Cool Cat Talk| @ 09:19, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Per prior requests from the community, this discussion was moved to: User_talk:Iantresman#Moved_from_Talk:NPOV FeloniousMonk 20:03, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Read the archives. Literally dozens of Wikipedia's most credible editors have asked for this discussion to be either dropped or taken to user talk space over the last four months. Read Wikipedia:Requests for comment/-Lumière. There is no support for what you've proposed. Read Wikipedia talk:No original research, where is issue of similar such changes by your contingent has been discussed at length and rejected. FeloniousMonk 21:02, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I've protected the page because of the reverting, because policy pages in particular need to be stable. Let me know when you're ready to start editing again. Cheers, SlimVirgin (talk) 20:46, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Would you please include the interwiki for Turkish page? Since here it is protected, I can not do so myself. Thanks. ( tr:Vikipedi:Tarafsız bakış açısı) -- tembelejderha 14:48, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
The text attributed "From Jimbo Wales, September 2003, on the mailing list:" [1] is inaccurate as he did not appear to write these words. At the very least, we need to make it clear that the attribution is not a quote, and provide a citation to his actual words [2] (see How to cite sources). -- Iantresman 15:56, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I always thought 'this is a paraphrase' and "this is a qoute". Merecat 22:57, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Fantastic. Simple, unambiguous and verifiable. -- Iantresman 23:24, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I also guess that Page protection has been removed, above. -- Iantresman 23:26, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
There appears some discussion going on regarding this sentence
See this humorous illustration of the "equal validity" issue.
in the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Giving "equal validity" section.
That is: discussion the wrong way (removing/adding the sentence in consecutive edits)
@Jossi: Equal for moving around, please find consensus first -- Francis Schonken 22:09, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
On April 22, SlimVirgin changed the 2nd sentence of the top-of-page notice from this :
to this:
Since I preferred to old version, I reverted it back. I'm posting this notice here (and on WP:NOR and WP:V), because it seems like a better place to discuss it than the template page. Ragout 04:30, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I removed "the neutral point of view is a point of view. It is a point of view that is neutral" which I've read a couple of times and had a little giggle over. I'm assuming the average reader is not a five-year-old. Marskell 09:53, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Ben, your solo operation (8 edits) on January 19 earlier this year [4] wasn't exactly copy-pasting something from the talk page that had been agreed upon before, as far as I can see. The prior version had more nuance (allthough I didn't think it very well written). Reducing
The prevailing Wikipedia understanding is that the neutral point of view is not a point of view at all; according to our understanding, when one writes neutrally, one is very careful not to state (or imply or insinuate or subtly massage the reader into believing) that any particular view at all is correct.
(the prior version) , to
The neutral point of view is not a point of view at all.
like you did, only made a questionable statement into a totally unacceptable one. Consequently it was changed the next day (that is the diff you linked to above), and that is still (apart from a comma that was added) the version we have today.
Most of the rest of your January 19 changes were left unchanged, I don't want to create the impression I don't think you did a good job on the whole, getting rid of much of the uneccessary complication. But I don't think you should implicate that your nuance-less "The neutral point of view is not a point of view at all" statement that didn't live to the next day was in any way a consensus version.
I read the above talk between Marskell and Saxifrage a few times, but don't see exactly yet what they propose to change to what at the end of their exchange of ideas. Could anyone write the whole sentence down maybe, then it'll be easier to see what others think about it. -- Francis Schonken 22:20, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm having trouble finding what aspect of this policy disallows bias from being introduced by covering a topic more than it deserves based on its importance relative to the rest of the article. For instance, if a city has had problems with water quality and it's both verifiable and relevant, what's to stop somebody from filling 2/3 of the article with cited information about how terrible the water quality was, and aggressively defending that information's importance? (It's not a fringe viewpoint; it's simply an accepted fact being vastly over-emphasized.) It clearly introduces a bias to over-emphasize a negative point like that, so it seems like something the NPOV policy should cover, but when people make the mistake of doing this, I'm not sure what part of this (or any) policy to point them to. – Tifego (t) 08:27, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Placement is also another important issue along with "aspects". To use Tifego's example, even if one only says "they have terrible water" and doesn't drove one for 2/3 of the article, but places it in the very first paragraph of the article, that can be just as bad (" Las Vegas is the most populous city in the state of Nevada, United States, and a major vacation, shopping, and gambling destination. It has terrible water."). I see three ways undue weight can be given: inclusion of ultra-minority POVs, wrong emphasis of facts, and improper placement of facts. » MonkeeSage « 10:50, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
(This section header was added to highlight the proposals for change. Taxman's comment that immediately follows was in reply to MonkeeSage's comment at 10:50, 27 April 2006 (UTC) immediately above the section header. — Saxifrage ✎ 03:08, 28 April 2006 (UTC))
Don't think it a good idea (sorry),
...confuse, double negation, what exactly does this sentence say?
...also confuse phraseology (one has to remember to take the "not" in the second half of the sentence for it to make sense). Regarding the content, where does this do better than the "Article structures which can imply a view" section of the Words to avoid guideline, or for that matter, what we're trying to do in wikipedia:criticism currently?
..."should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject", etc... again that convoluted phraseology. And definitely not better than the way this point is formulated in the "Space and balance" section of the NPOV tutorial:
Different views don't all deserve equal space. Articles need to be interesting to attract and keep the attention of readers. For an entry in an encyclopedia, ideas also need to be important. The amount of space they deserve depends on their importance and how many interesting things can be said about them.
...in comparison, surprisingly simple and effective, no?
Vague, and in essence, when this could be formulated clearer rather something for the NPOV tutorial, than something with which to burden the NPOV policy page, as far as I'm concerned. Also, it makes something that is unavoidable when writing about opposing views ("juxtaposition of statements") look as if this would in itself be something bad. And then, weren't "Biased or selective representation of sources" and "Editing as if one given opinion is right and therefore other opinions have little substance" forgotten from the list? Surprise, they're already, elaborated with examples, in the NPOV tutorial.
So here's my suggestion, maybe look a bit further to what already exist (like the NPOV tutorial, or the criticism proposal), before trying to cram the content of the implementation guidelines all on the main NPOV policy page, that might only become totally unreadable again. -- Francis Schonken 22:48, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
On the WP:NPOV page, NPOV tutorial is the first link encountered under the two templates. Note also that there's also another section, already for a long time on the NPOV page, Giving "equal validity", that also treats the same idea. I think the "Undue weight" section has gotten an out of proportion amount of attention since a few months, and would rather leave it at that. Maybe remove the "shortcut" box from that section (that is giving "Undue weight" to the Undue weight section). -- Francis Schonken 23:06, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, still no consensus on the verbosity of the phrasing. Note that I also raised some other points (e.g. context of Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial#Space and balance and/or category:Wikipedia proportion and emphasis; avoiding that the NPOV policy page centers too much on the "undue weight" section, which is only a corollary of the main principle of the page;...) which received no comments, or otherwise comments that had no relation to the points that were raised. -- Francis Schonken 12:04, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi there. I am a political Scientist, and a Social Scientist, (of the self educated sort.) And also an information systems Theorist. (Of the rank amatuer hobbyist sort.) I say this as background material, so that people will understand where I am coming from (I hope) a little more clearly.
My observation is that wikipedia has become a battleground for politicos, and that NPOV policy, while set to deal with the issue, is failing in general to keep cliques of Right wingers and left wingers from forming and resulting conflicts and social entropy ensue.
I have a set of theoretical partial solutions to this problem, at the very least some ideas I think might seriously help if they were in some way codified into policy.
The first of these is simply what I will call "Full Disclosure." It is my opinion that in order to make clearer sense of who has what biases, that participants contributing to contentious articles would all benefit from the lucidity that would follow if a "Full Disclosure" clause was added to the NPOV policy. The idea here is that the lead author of an article would begin the process on their user page, or a user subpage, by disclosing their biases, affiliations, loyalties, allegiances, and personal agenda. They could then ask "Disclosure questions" which other participants would be obliged to answer on their own user page, or user sub page, before contributing to the article.
Prometheuspan 03:35, 28 April 2006 (UTC) Thats a minor detail, it only works that way as a for instance. I'll change it? I don't want to conflict with anything, i was just giving the very general idea of how it might work. Of course it would have to be fit into the way things currently go. For instance, never mind the "lead author" clause, just imagine it as a function of agreeing to work on articles with serious pov issues. The only reason why to use a lead author is to define the most relevant pov issues. It could be done round robin, or, the consensus process could be used to generate basic criteria. I'd change it immediately, but i don't want to misrepresent the evolution of the idea. Thanks so much for your explanation. Prometheuspan 03:35, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
For instance, a full disclosure by me regarding Rationale to impeach George Bush would look like this;
I am a third party leaning democrat who believes sincerely that The president should be impeached. I voted for Dennis Kucinich in the election, but could not bring myself to vote for the lesser of two Evils represented by John Kerry. I consider myself a Radical Moderate, and an eclectic, and like to integrate apparently opposing viewpoints into more cohesive wholes. My agendas in writing this article is firstly to provide a neutral information service to the public, and secondly to make a strong argument that in fact, there are good rationales to impeach Bush.
The point of this system would be to determine what peoples Agendas and Biases are, so that their contributions and potential conflicts could be understood in the context of where they are coming from. This would in my opinion, seriously aid in understanding in case of requests for comment, mediation, or arbitration, and make understanding contributors bias as simple as looking, rather than trying to guage that bias by reading pages and pages of contributions. It would force a new level of honesty into the system, and this would facilitate lucid problem solving regarding conflicts.
Perhaps more importantly, persons with serious agendas and biases would thus be encouraged to self identify, and could thereby in some cases be asked to recuse themselves from articles, based on the standard model of conflict of interest.
Lastly, trollish and manipulative behavior and dishonesty would be much easier to identify, because such persons would be likely to undereport their true agendas, and, agendas become apparent after a certain amount of interaction, generally.
I hope that this can be something useful to wikipedia, thanks for your time and energy in consideration. Prometheuspan 21:56, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Prometheuspan 03:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC) oh, thanks, that helps. Prometheuspan 03:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I am very surprised to hear that others don't think that this would be helpful. I honestly hadn't anticipated that in the least. I was sure that the usefulness of the system would be self evident. "misleading disclosures" Actually, I think you miss the point. We don't rely on this, its another tool. "Misleading disclosures" would rapidly become evident. It isn't hard to watch an agenda in progress. Think about it. For anybody with over 100 or so edits, you can probably guess their agenda if you study whats done and said. The point here is to bring a focus and thus lucidity to the issue of agendas, which isn't something wikipedia even discusses. Misleading diclosures would be a give-a-way very quickly of action not in good faith. "Do nothing" I can't see how you can say this. It would do lots regarding that subversion including making subversion more apparent and easier to diagnose. "areas of policy ambiguous" Policy or a set of rules can only get you so far. Sooner or later this comes down to figuring out what a persons agenda is, one way or another. If somebody has an agenda to be disruptive, then we have to figure that out the same as we do now. Straight out liars and con artists would be forced to come up with some good answers, but would still eventually give themselves away. "Particular beef" Are you accusing me of doing that here? Honestly, I am trying to help Wikipedia solve this problem.
Prometheuspan 03:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC) I do think it could be very helpful, it doesn't look to me as i wander around that most people are clear what kinds of biases others have hardly at all. Nobody even says the word "Agenda." Prometheuspan 03:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I hope that both of you will think about this and review the idea carefully in your mind. I am certain it has enormous merit. "Conflict of interest". For instance, I would have to recuse myself from writing the George W. Bush Article, because i would be too biased against him to provide useful assitance in that endeavor. It would be a conflict of interest for me to do that. For instance. conflict of interest
Prometheuspan 01:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Saxifrage, you actually seem to have a full disclosure area of your user page, as if you allready get it. ???? Why did you tell us about your biases? Because its helpful to the effort for everybody to put their biases on the table. You make the argument for it yourself on your user page. ??? If everybody was as honest and forthcoming as you are on your user page, this would be redundant. Think about it. Prometheuspan 01:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Prometheuspan 03:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC) I think that is a good point, but if you were working on an aricle related to George Bush or the rigged elections problem, I think it would become very relevant very quickly. If people didn't want to disclose they don't have to work on the article, or, even, if they didn't want to disclose they could even still work on the article, but have to more or less defer to those that did disclose in disputes. I think you are doing a great job of finding potential holes, but every hole you have found so far seems either illusory in the first place or an easy patch to me personally. "Mandatory" might be much too strong a word and way to think about the whole idea.
As far as "full" goes, people would only be disclosing things relevant to working on highly contested articles. Think of it as a tool used perhaps only after a pov dispute has reached critical mass. Prometheuspan 03:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I have no problem disclosing my biases and agendas (check my user page if you doubt it), but this suggestion is a bit worrisome to me. The No Persoanl Attacks policy says that the following qualifies as an example of a personal attack: "Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views — regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream or extreme." I fear that such a forced-disclosure could (likely would) lead to witch-hunts and edit wars based on affiliations and personal convictions; implicit ownership of articles (e.g., Christians claiming that "hard" Atheists can't edit articles about Christianity because they are too biased, and vise versa); and hasty generalizations. » MonkeeSage « 05:27, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I disclose some things about myself on my user pages (and disclosed more in the past, still accessible in the history), but I much prefer to be judged by my edits than by anything I say about myself. Since we have no way of verifying what editors say about themselves (without engaging in what, in some circumstance, I would consider to be 'stalking'), I much prefer to judge people by their behavior in Wikipedia. In the same vein, if I have learned something about an editor that is not available publicly, I do not reveal it. So, I also do not like any proposal to force editors to disclose biases, viewpoints, etc. -- Donald Albury( Talk) 12:41, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I've said before I favour the notion of knowing where an editor comes from. I have listed my biases, as I understand them, about major topics on my user page. I'd not favour requiring it from every editor! It's an optional thing (I think it makes our interactions better if you know where I am coming from and vice versa but if you don't agree, no biggie) and certainly don't see the need for it anywhere else though. My concern with the above is that it seems to be more than just that although I confess I haven't parsed out what exactly. + + Lar: t/ c 14:58, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Prometheuspan 19:52, 28 April 2006 (UTC) Thanks for your assorted comments. Seeing as i have no support and only people who think its a bad idea responding, i suppose I'll just drop it. I think you are all miscontruing how it would work, and underestimating how helpful it would be. The idea here wasn't for me to generate an actual policy, but to start a policy concept. I think it would be more fair and realistic if people would stop and think about how in theory it might be implemented, before just dismissing it out of hand. In any case, I am slowly coming to the realization that Wikipedia is a mostly headless beneficient dictatorship combined with a loose level of consensus process resulting actually in pack psychology driven anarchy, and, I will probably quit participating, because i don't see that theres any sane way to deal with abusiveness, and the policies in place that do deal with the issues require exorbitant amounts of time and energy, which means that only the very worst problems are ever resolved, and editors who are clearly gaming the system and manipulating and lying can continue to do so as long as they are clever enough not to become a really big pain to some administrator. Prometheuspan 19:52, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately biases are indicated by what people write in an article, not by their background. It doesn't matter whether I'm a gay, liberal, black, communist, or whatever, it's what I write that counts.
But I do agree with you that Wikipedia does come across as headless, and I think that pages and pages of repetition arguments on these pages, demonstrates that, regardless of what some contributors may suggest, it is indeed driven by anarchic consensus, rather than policy. -- Iantresman 01:08, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
(Previously titled Is it OK to say Hitler's a monster because he really is?)
Actually the situation is more complex. People who believe the communists are evil (etc) think they are justified in using POV words to describe communists, because they believe their words REALLY, REALLY fit the communists, so they don't think it's POV to use those words. Eg:
I very much agree. "Persecution" is a very negative term, however, we shouldn't avoid it simply for that reason. What the Chinese government has done fully meets the term's definition, which has been acknowledged by many third party sources, as -someone- mentioned. I opt for "persecution" rather than "crackdown" or "suppression" becuase it more clearly describes the reality of what is being discussed. -names removed-
-- Миборовский U| T| C| M| E| Chugoku Banzai! 18:33, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
From the above it's not clear to me whether the interlocutors were or were not aware that Hitler is actually used as an example in Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Let the facts speak for themselves. In other words: didn't the content of that section already settle the issue brought forward? Or, is someone implying, by bringing this topic up on this page, that something is wrong with that section? -- Francis Schonken 00:01, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
No, it is NOT OK to say Hitler was a monster as this is clearly POV. On the ultimate scale of events, Hitler's actions were actually following some sort of a world-wide order. If Hitler, did not exist, many countries would still be under foreign rule and the world community would still view war with a high level of tolerance. One must remember that Hitler (and no man) is evil in ABSOLUTE terms. -- S iva1979 Talk to me 03:52, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Does NPOV apply to non-controversial subjects, controversial subjects, or both? -- Iantresman 18:30, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
According to the page on POV pushing, only excluding all points of view but one, counts as "POV pushing". Does that infer that including a particular point of view (POV), in a neutral point of view style (NPOV), can not count as "POV pushing" under any circumstances? In other words, mentioning a POV is not POV pushing, otherwise any POV already mentioned in an article can be considerd POV pushing. -- Iantresman 09:09, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Prometheuspan 23:48, 2 May 2006 (UTC) The apparent final application of NPOV becomes MPOV as in "multiple Points of view." This applies where there ARE multiple points of view, and where any given point of view is both noteworthy and sane enough to withstand the obvious scrutiny of basic reality checks. I could write a theory on cosmology based on the divine intervention of the flying spagetti monster. Fortunately for all of us, this would only fly in a humor article, not a cosmology article, because its not a serious REAL Cosmology.
As a newbie, this is only my current interpretation. I keep finding new details that makes me scratch my head for 20 minutes. Prometheuspan 23:48, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
'Objectivity' in my experience is impossible, individuals (myself included) will always write or comment on a subject based on how they have experienced it. Most of what I hear is usually subjective at some level. For every one 'fact' I choose to report, I'm sure I leave out many other 'facts'.
Sorry! NPOV is not realistic IMHO
What may be more realistic is for people to simply take ownership or owe up to what is their opinion or simply state how they 'feel' about the subject (no one can call them a liar or 'have gotten it wrong'). This is a really tough one for historians.
I find it difficult in society which so often encourages people not to state how they feel. (notice I said 'feel' and not 'think').
Have a good one! WIKIPEDIAVI 20:10, 2 May 2006 (UTC) 02May2006
Since your experiences are not objective, then your view on a subject is not acceptable. That's why articles are written from a neutral point of view based on verifiable sources. -- Iantresman 20:34, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Prometheuspan 23:42, 2 May 2006 (UTC) It is true. Neutrality is just a goal. A worthy goal, which, cannot actually be achieved. However, we can get very close to that goal, and the harder we work to achieve it the more closely we aproximate an information resource instead of a propaganda channel.
The policy has already addressed this issue ( WP:NPOV#There's no such thing as objectivity):
You don't have to believe in the possibility of neutrality, nor work toward it; you don't have to believe that biases prevent fair reporting; in the worst case, the policy allows for necessarily biased reporting to be balanced by necessarily counter-biased reporting, with the end result that all views are fairly represented by those who are biased toward them. » MonkeeSage « 23:54, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
When coming into wikipedia, I was soon faced with NPOV since my main interest are horses - a typical flaming topic. Particularly, since my aim was to let people know something about relatively new opinions and evidence about this flaming topic: barefoot horses, bitless riding, treeless saddles, passive leadership... Almost nothing about this was into wiki. I'm mainly working into it.wiki and commons, but sometimes I come into en.wiki (I'm a little discouraged by my far-from-good English). I thoght a lot about NPOV, and some from my first works had been marked with NPOV template. Then, this was my beginner's approach: 1. I looked for a wiki admin with "traditional" horse experience and I asked him to take a look to my work (thanks Ubi!), then I followed her suggestions; 2. I re-discovered by myself the principle "Work for the enemy": I translated many "traditional" horse articles from English into Italian, adding a mention to new opinions and evidences; 3. I posted into commons many horse pictures about traditional farriery too! and I add good links to some good farriery sources to articles that were lacking them. And I tried to discuss NPOV too, when I saw that sometimes there is some mismatch between "CPOV" (Common Point of View) and NPOV. I'd like so much a "EBPOV" (Evidence Based Point of View")! Am I perfectly neutral about horses? Not at all! Simply, I'm doing by best to be. Take a look to Laminitis, its talk page and its history just ho have a example.-- Alex brollo 07:16, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
There is no such thing as NPOV. I think this should be mentioned in the page.
Proofs are: for the English wikipedia, there is no proff Lance Armstrong is doped. For teh French wikipedia, he is. For the English wikipedia, the kingdom of France starts in the late middle age, for the French wikipedia it starts in the Vth century.
Herve661
"But to speak seriously, the universality of an opinion is no proof, nay, it is not even a probability, that the opinion is right." (The Art of Controversy, A. Schopenhauer). This underlines how much "common point of view" is different by "neutral point of view". The ia a hard discussion about truth into medicine (a science dealing with a complex system), and recently emerged the need for a evidence-based medicine.
In brief: when debating about NPOV, it's very important, in my opinion, to look for some evidence supporting a point of view, particularly if it is largely accepted (t.i. "not needing any proof" at a first glance). It's highly probable that such an undocumented point of view is - far from being NPOV - a received idea. Alex brollo 06:23, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Is this recently added sidebar {{Associations/Wikipedia Bad Things}} appropriate in a policy page? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:25, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand how NPOV can really work. It seems it is self-denying. If I understand the idea correctly, NPOV is to be entirely neutral and without judgment. But to be without any hint of judgement doesn't the writer have to move to an amoral position, or at least not observe and describe without using any pejorative or ameliorative comments?
I can understand trying to remain objective but to claim to be without bias seems to be delusional, and stretching for God-like characteristics, as if it were possible to maintain a completely object viewpoint. For example, if I read the page on abortion I can clearly see how all the descriptions are couched around the pro-abortion/pro-choice position while attempting to "sound" objective. It sounds good if you're pro-choice/pro-abortion, but if you are anti-choice/pro-life it feels like the whole NPOV system is hypocritical because it claims objectivity yet the authors can't see even how their position is already so very skewed.
Might it not be a better way to admit that we have biases and allow for "positions" to be held? For example I recently read of a new shared Israeli & Palestinian history book project where history is present from each point of view. The same events are described with one side of the page being explained from an Israeli perspective and the other side of the book being Palestinian. This seems more intellectually honest.
I can understand striving for neutrality but pretending to be without bias seems to color the whole project to me with a sense of dishonesty. Dcsutherland 02:16, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
The problem with being NPOV is that is might show people likes racist or the nazis or the KKK or other hate groups in a good light, instead in the bad light they are supposed to be shown in. That's why I don't like NPOV sometimes on some articles. -Alex, 74.133.188.197 04:30, 13 May 2006 (UTC).
May we change:
"As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view. It is a point of view that is striving for neutrality - a point of view that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject."
to
"As the name suggests, neutrality in the context of the encyclopedia is itself a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints. By adopting the neutral point of view, Wikipedia articles do state a position, one that is neither sympathetic to nor in opposition to its subject."
or some other wording that avoids that avoids the non-statement circularity. Two say yes, Frances says no. Any other comments would be appreciated. Marskell 08:28, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
My commentary re this sentence: "As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence of elimination of viewpoints." is that it doesn't really parse. In particular, "absence of elimination", unless we're talking constipation (:-)), doesn't really mean anything. If I understand the intention (which is far from certain), the line would be: "... NPOV is a point of view, not the absence of a viewpoint or the elimination of all viewpoints". -- Gnetwerker 01:37, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
On March 16th 2006, I requested a change to the last paragraph of the "Reasoning Behind NPOV" section, which received 8:3 support (not counting myself), and after a long discussion and a compromise with one of the editors who was against the change, got to 9:2. I made the change, which was reverted by one of the other two editors who was against the change. This was not a change to the actual policy, only a change in the description of the policy, or more precisely, the description of the reason for the policy.
Is 9:2 a sufficient consensus for such a change? If not, the issue is still open, as I still support my request, and I ask an admin. to please instruct me how to resolve the matter. I am willing to abide my the consensus decision with no further adiue (even if it is against me), which is why I have let the matter rest for a month (since April 2nd); but currently it appears that the consensus is for the change, not against it. I'm not trying to be stubborn or cause any problems, I just want to get the issue resolved. » MonkeeSage « 10:01, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
For goodness sake, just make the freaking change already. :-P And don't mention the '%' symbol in my presence again! >:-> (grrrr) Kim Bruning 14:33, 13 May 2006 (UTC) <performs quick change to innocent look, who me, growling?>
The paragraph currently under discussion:
There is another reason to commit ourselves to this policy. Namely, when it is clear to readers that we do not expect them to adopt any particular opinion, this leaves them free to make up their minds for themselves, thus encouraging intellectual independence. Totalitarian governments and dogmatic institutions everywhere might find reason to be opposed to Wikipedia, if we succeed in adhering to our non-bias policy: the presentation of many competing theories on a wide variety of subjects suggests that we, the editors of Wikipedia, trust readers' competence to form their own opinions. Texts that present multiple viewpoints fairly, without demanding that the reader accept any one of them, are liberating. Neutrality subverts dogmatism, and nearly everyone working on Wikipedia can agree this is a good thing.
is maybe the clearest instance of a Wikipedia mission statement included in a policy page.
That is, the unavoidable "mission statement" by Jimbo ( user:Jimbo Wales/Statement of principles) is not a policy page.
So maybe this is a question to be answered first: can/should Wikipedia policy pages include mission statement-like expressions?
My (personal) answer to this question would be: I tend to see the discussed "reasoning behind NPOV" paragraph as an explicitation and adoption into the community of Jimbo's first principle ("Wikipedia's success to date is 100% a function of our open community"). The paragraph currently under discussion makes explicit that this might conflict with the interests of less open communities, and that we shouldn't dodge awareness of such issue. So I oppose to a formulation that makes that point less transparant. Note that I don't think this should prevent a clearer formulation of the implied principle (see next subsection).
Note also that according to Jimbo's principle #6 a further discussion of this issue can and should probably best be taken to the mailing list. Would that be a good idea? -- Francis Schonken 11:33, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Couldn't we get rid of the "namely" beginning the second sentence of the discussed "reasoning behind NPOV" paragraph? I've been told that the word namely makes reading of an English text less fluent. So I'd try to get rid of that word in order to get a clearer formulation. -- Francis Schonken 11:33, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
NPOV correctly implemented would read dispassionately, in a dry analytic fashion such as:
"The Chicago Police today reported that three suspects were apprehended driving a vehicle which had been reported stolen by the grand-niece of Richard Daley."
, instead of
"Three hoodlums were caught red-handed violating the family tranquility of the beloved Daley family. When apprehended, they were committing a felony by being in possession of stolen car and are likely guilty of many other things as well".
It's really that simple. Hdtopo 05:18, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Following banned user Zephram Stark's attempt to rewrite WP:SOCK using two sockpuppet accounts, there is a proposal to limit the editing of policy pages either to admins, or to editors with six months editing experience and 1,000 edits to articles. Please vote and comment at Wikipedia:Editing policy pages. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:12, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
A source's POV is not something that should necessarily be removed. Quite the opposite, it often is the purpose of Wikipedia to report what the source's POV is. For example, Bytwerk has recommended including a source, Michael Burleigh, who has the opinion (the POV) that "Hitler dissembled his personal views behind preachy invocations of the Almighty". So, in Burleigh's opinion, Hitler was sort of a liar. That's his POV, and it is our job to report it. It's not a fact that Hitler lied about personal views, but it is a fact that Burleigh said that Hitler lied. So, yes we are interested in only giving the facts, but do you see how we report a source's POV here in a factual way? Reporting what a source said, is stating a fact, the source really did say it, regardless of whether what he said was true or false, fact or opinion.
This was what I read from another Wikipedian, but I am unsure about that being correct. The information here does not clearly state about a sources' POV. I do not agree with the above statements. POV'ing ought to be completely left out: just leave the facts, but upon coming here, I didn't see anything about it. Colonel Marksman 13:21, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
"A good rule of thumb in avoiding POV is to never refer to someone in a way you would not want to see used to refer to yourself or a loved one. When writing something such as "the park has had a lot of problems with the homeless," consider that these "homeless" are people and would not want to be described this way. An improvement might be something such as "after the park was renovated, park officials began taking steps to show that individuals who were homeless were not welcome there."
So, it's ok to insert the opinions of sources (historians/books/articles), but Wikipedians (editors) can't? "Just as long as you state the source?"
Wikipedians are the ones who insert the quotes and the sources. They insert opinons by citing those sources which have such, and it may not even uphold their own opinons either (I really don't think African-Americans are screwing America). Colonel Marksman 16:11, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
The idea is to avoid undue weight (read WP:NPOV). As I said, it would not be neutral if we cherrypick our sources. You can find many sources saying Blacks are screwing the US of A, but there would be an equal amount of sources arguing otherwise. Therefore, it is illogical to exclude one or the other if we want to remain neutral. The key phrase here is avoiding undue weight.
Beside the point anyway. Would it not make sense to only state the facts? Colonel Marksman 20:56, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
The article on pseudoscience states: The term "pseudoscience" generally has negative connotations because it asserts that things so labeled are inaccurately or deceptively described as science. If a term 'generally has negative connotations', can using it for categorization purposes be NPOV? Is there a suitable term that would be politically correct in terms of WP NPOV policy? Aquirata 12:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
After rounding the bend in my WP learning curve, I have come to realize that the terminology "Neutral Point of View" is actually doing more harm than good. Every discussion and argument tends to bring this up, one accusing another of not being in conformity with WP:NPOV. That should make a red flag go up that there is something wrong. Rules should be clear enough for the majority to understand what it means. The very wording lends itself to being misunderstood. The idea of "point of view" immediately brings to mind something "personal". This causes a lot of battles. It really is something more objective than that. I witness people who have had much experience here falling into the trap of treating NPOV contrary to the intention of the policy. The policy states that NPOV cannot be interpreted inseparably from verifiability. This is crucial. People don't seem to get what that really entails. It means that NPOV really only comes into play because you have found that two or more reliable sources of verification are opposed to each other. Once that happens NPOV is a solution to it. NPOV is really just a reasonable Reconciliation of Reliable Sources. (RRS, or AWR=Average Weight of Reliability). That means the sources themselves must be weighed as to reliability, and an average taken so that the final wording of the article conforms to that reconciliation. You could have a New York Times article saying the opposite of the Washington Post. The final RRS would probably be 50/50 reliability and perfectly neutral (though one could probably argue section and authorship since newspapers more hastily print depending on those factors). Then again, why choose reconciling opposites when you know that reality cannot have opposites in truth? Why not try to find which one is correct? If you have a source from the Scientific American and Readers Digest opposed on a fact, it would depend upon the subject matter (science or not?) and their own referenced sources. If it was more of a scientific fact, the weight would be in favor of the SA article and the final RRS (formerly NPOV) would be wording in accord with the average weight of reliability. Bottom line, personal opinion is minimized. But a major factor in minimizing it is by changing NPOV to something more accurate as I suggested. What needs to be done also is to have a separate page of WOR (Weight of Reliability). Let's face it, we all know that different magazines and newspapers have varying degrees of reliability. Newspapers are notorious for haste and waste when it comes to errors. Just because something is published in a magazine doesn't necessarily give is a high degree of reliability either (Mad Magazine?). As WP says, it is based on verifiability, and the term NPOV is constantly at odds because it gives people the wrong impression of what it is all about. The better the rules, the less argument, hard drive and administrator time spent. Moderation and arbitrations, etc. would be lessened. RFC's would be easier. Admins would have more time just handling truly abusive people rather than the abuses fostered by ill-chosen policy terminology. So far I have already found another contradiction in the policy, which I have recently expressed on the Talk page for Verifiability, which involes the guideline on reliable sources reducing policy to a mere guideline itself. ( Diligens 11:03, 23 May 2006 (UTC))
Here's a strategy for handling that issue I once proposed ( [10] - dates back to October 2004):
No it isn't: the expression POV is used by many wikipedians, but in fact it is a confusing term, often leading to a re-introduction of the "objectivity" concept, which above is dismissed for use in Wikipedia context. This can be exemplified by following quote (taken from a real Wikipedia discussion):
The confusion comes from the fact that POV can also be read as the abbreviation of "Point Of View" (which is inherently good for Wikipedia, or, at least, the basic stuff Wikipedia is made of), while many wikipedians use POV in the meaning of opposite of NPOV. Even when attempting to use the expression POV exclusively in this latter meaning, the objectivity concept appears to be lurking around the corner.
If you want to use an abbreviation that means opposite of NPOV, try any of these:
... I recall it survived a few weeks or so.
The longer Wikipedia exists, the deeper-rooted the dual meaning of POV (" opposite of NPOV" - " point of view") appears to become.
But on the whole (taking the bad and the good), I don't think the use of the NPOV concept in Wikipedia is counterproductive, nor do I see any approach that demonstrably would be more successful. -- Francis Schonken 12:59, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
A large part of this article is an essay-like discussion of hypothetical common arguments and responses.
Can we put these in an article Common objections to NPOV or Validity of NPOV and summarize in a dozen lines here? Essay-style material to this extent isn't really needed in a major policy. Better we summarize here and point to detail. FT2 ( Talk) 11:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
No. WP:NPOV is exemplary of how all wikipedia namespace pages should look. A reasoned NPOV discussion (1) of the how and why of each aspect of a particular guideline. Policy pages may describe our internal processes, but that does not mean that they should not be held to the same standards as our encyclopedia pages. Rather, over time it should be our objective to edit all our other policy/guideline/essay pages into a similar form. Kim Bruning 13:20, 23 May 2006 (UTC) (1)yes, I'm aware of the recursion
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
... don't work, so personally I'd propose to omit WP:NPOVUW entirely from the policy page. Maybe it should better be proposed for MfD or so, per Wikipedia:Redirect#When should we delete a redirect?, reason 2, that is: "confusing" (it creates the confusing, and incorrect, idea that the shortcut actually links to the UW section, someone not knowing that was the intention can only be more confused when reading the "NPOVUW" acronym, and when clicking arriving at the top of the NPOV page, where the "UW" is nowhere explained). And overall, i think NPOVUW to be a horrendous acronym, in the WP:WOTTA meaning. -- Francis Schonken 21:32, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Would it be ok if I were to tag chinese ctities under Category:Taiwan as the goverment of Taiwan ( Republic of China) claims to rule mainland china? -- Cool Cat Talk| @ 09:19, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Per prior requests from the community, this discussion was moved to: User_talk:Iantresman#Moved_from_Talk:NPOV FeloniousMonk 20:03, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Read the archives. Literally dozens of Wikipedia's most credible editors have asked for this discussion to be either dropped or taken to user talk space over the last four months. Read Wikipedia:Requests for comment/-Lumière. There is no support for what you've proposed. Read Wikipedia talk:No original research, where is issue of similar such changes by your contingent has been discussed at length and rejected. FeloniousMonk 21:02, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I've protected the page because of the reverting, because policy pages in particular need to be stable. Let me know when you're ready to start editing again. Cheers, SlimVirgin (talk) 20:46, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Would you please include the interwiki for Turkish page? Since here it is protected, I can not do so myself. Thanks. ( tr:Vikipedi:Tarafsız bakış açısı) -- tembelejderha 14:48, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
The text attributed "From Jimbo Wales, September 2003, on the mailing list:" [1] is inaccurate as he did not appear to write these words. At the very least, we need to make it clear that the attribution is not a quote, and provide a citation to his actual words [2] (see How to cite sources). -- Iantresman 15:56, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I always thought 'this is a paraphrase' and "this is a qoute". Merecat 22:57, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Fantastic. Simple, unambiguous and verifiable. -- Iantresman 23:24, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I also guess that Page protection has been removed, above. -- Iantresman 23:26, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
There appears some discussion going on regarding this sentence
See this humorous illustration of the "equal validity" issue.
in the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Giving "equal validity" section.
That is: discussion the wrong way (removing/adding the sentence in consecutive edits)
@Jossi: Equal for moving around, please find consensus first -- Francis Schonken 22:09, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
On April 22, SlimVirgin changed the 2nd sentence of the top-of-page notice from this :
to this:
Since I preferred to old version, I reverted it back. I'm posting this notice here (and on WP:NOR and WP:V), because it seems like a better place to discuss it than the template page. Ragout 04:30, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I removed "the neutral point of view is a point of view. It is a point of view that is neutral" which I've read a couple of times and had a little giggle over. I'm assuming the average reader is not a five-year-old. Marskell 09:53, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Ben, your solo operation (8 edits) on January 19 earlier this year [4] wasn't exactly copy-pasting something from the talk page that had been agreed upon before, as far as I can see. The prior version had more nuance (allthough I didn't think it very well written). Reducing
The prevailing Wikipedia understanding is that the neutral point of view is not a point of view at all; according to our understanding, when one writes neutrally, one is very careful not to state (or imply or insinuate or subtly massage the reader into believing) that any particular view at all is correct.
(the prior version) , to
The neutral point of view is not a point of view at all.
like you did, only made a questionable statement into a totally unacceptable one. Consequently it was changed the next day (that is the diff you linked to above), and that is still (apart from a comma that was added) the version we have today.
Most of the rest of your January 19 changes were left unchanged, I don't want to create the impression I don't think you did a good job on the whole, getting rid of much of the uneccessary complication. But I don't think you should implicate that your nuance-less "The neutral point of view is not a point of view at all" statement that didn't live to the next day was in any way a consensus version.
I read the above talk between Marskell and Saxifrage a few times, but don't see exactly yet what they propose to change to what at the end of their exchange of ideas. Could anyone write the whole sentence down maybe, then it'll be easier to see what others think about it. -- Francis Schonken 22:20, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm having trouble finding what aspect of this policy disallows bias from being introduced by covering a topic more than it deserves based on its importance relative to the rest of the article. For instance, if a city has had problems with water quality and it's both verifiable and relevant, what's to stop somebody from filling 2/3 of the article with cited information about how terrible the water quality was, and aggressively defending that information's importance? (It's not a fringe viewpoint; it's simply an accepted fact being vastly over-emphasized.) It clearly introduces a bias to over-emphasize a negative point like that, so it seems like something the NPOV policy should cover, but when people make the mistake of doing this, I'm not sure what part of this (or any) policy to point them to. – Tifego (t) 08:27, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Placement is also another important issue along with "aspects". To use Tifego's example, even if one only says "they have terrible water" and doesn't drove one for 2/3 of the article, but places it in the very first paragraph of the article, that can be just as bad (" Las Vegas is the most populous city in the state of Nevada, United States, and a major vacation, shopping, and gambling destination. It has terrible water."). I see three ways undue weight can be given: inclusion of ultra-minority POVs, wrong emphasis of facts, and improper placement of facts. » MonkeeSage « 10:50, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
(This section header was added to highlight the proposals for change. Taxman's comment that immediately follows was in reply to MonkeeSage's comment at 10:50, 27 April 2006 (UTC) immediately above the section header. — Saxifrage ✎ 03:08, 28 April 2006 (UTC))
Don't think it a good idea (sorry),
...confuse, double negation, what exactly does this sentence say?
...also confuse phraseology (one has to remember to take the "not" in the second half of the sentence for it to make sense). Regarding the content, where does this do better than the "Article structures which can imply a view" section of the Words to avoid guideline, or for that matter, what we're trying to do in wikipedia:criticism currently?
..."should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject", etc... again that convoluted phraseology. And definitely not better than the way this point is formulated in the "Space and balance" section of the NPOV tutorial:
Different views don't all deserve equal space. Articles need to be interesting to attract and keep the attention of readers. For an entry in an encyclopedia, ideas also need to be important. The amount of space they deserve depends on their importance and how many interesting things can be said about them.
...in comparison, surprisingly simple and effective, no?
Vague, and in essence, when this could be formulated clearer rather something for the NPOV tutorial, than something with which to burden the NPOV policy page, as far as I'm concerned. Also, it makes something that is unavoidable when writing about opposing views ("juxtaposition of statements") look as if this would in itself be something bad. And then, weren't "Biased or selective representation of sources" and "Editing as if one given opinion is right and therefore other opinions have little substance" forgotten from the list? Surprise, they're already, elaborated with examples, in the NPOV tutorial.
So here's my suggestion, maybe look a bit further to what already exist (like the NPOV tutorial, or the criticism proposal), before trying to cram the content of the implementation guidelines all on the main NPOV policy page, that might only become totally unreadable again. -- Francis Schonken 22:48, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
On the WP:NPOV page, NPOV tutorial is the first link encountered under the two templates. Note also that there's also another section, already for a long time on the NPOV page, Giving "equal validity", that also treats the same idea. I think the "Undue weight" section has gotten an out of proportion amount of attention since a few months, and would rather leave it at that. Maybe remove the "shortcut" box from that section (that is giving "Undue weight" to the Undue weight section). -- Francis Schonken 23:06, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, still no consensus on the verbosity of the phrasing. Note that I also raised some other points (e.g. context of Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial#Space and balance and/or category:Wikipedia proportion and emphasis; avoiding that the NPOV policy page centers too much on the "undue weight" section, which is only a corollary of the main principle of the page;...) which received no comments, or otherwise comments that had no relation to the points that were raised. -- Francis Schonken 12:04, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi there. I am a political Scientist, and a Social Scientist, (of the self educated sort.) And also an information systems Theorist. (Of the rank amatuer hobbyist sort.) I say this as background material, so that people will understand where I am coming from (I hope) a little more clearly.
My observation is that wikipedia has become a battleground for politicos, and that NPOV policy, while set to deal with the issue, is failing in general to keep cliques of Right wingers and left wingers from forming and resulting conflicts and social entropy ensue.
I have a set of theoretical partial solutions to this problem, at the very least some ideas I think might seriously help if they were in some way codified into policy.
The first of these is simply what I will call "Full Disclosure." It is my opinion that in order to make clearer sense of who has what biases, that participants contributing to contentious articles would all benefit from the lucidity that would follow if a "Full Disclosure" clause was added to the NPOV policy. The idea here is that the lead author of an article would begin the process on their user page, or a user subpage, by disclosing their biases, affiliations, loyalties, allegiances, and personal agenda. They could then ask "Disclosure questions" which other participants would be obliged to answer on their own user page, or user sub page, before contributing to the article.
Prometheuspan 03:35, 28 April 2006 (UTC) Thats a minor detail, it only works that way as a for instance. I'll change it? I don't want to conflict with anything, i was just giving the very general idea of how it might work. Of course it would have to be fit into the way things currently go. For instance, never mind the "lead author" clause, just imagine it as a function of agreeing to work on articles with serious pov issues. The only reason why to use a lead author is to define the most relevant pov issues. It could be done round robin, or, the consensus process could be used to generate basic criteria. I'd change it immediately, but i don't want to misrepresent the evolution of the idea. Thanks so much for your explanation. Prometheuspan 03:35, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
For instance, a full disclosure by me regarding Rationale to impeach George Bush would look like this;
I am a third party leaning democrat who believes sincerely that The president should be impeached. I voted for Dennis Kucinich in the election, but could not bring myself to vote for the lesser of two Evils represented by John Kerry. I consider myself a Radical Moderate, and an eclectic, and like to integrate apparently opposing viewpoints into more cohesive wholes. My agendas in writing this article is firstly to provide a neutral information service to the public, and secondly to make a strong argument that in fact, there are good rationales to impeach Bush.
The point of this system would be to determine what peoples Agendas and Biases are, so that their contributions and potential conflicts could be understood in the context of where they are coming from. This would in my opinion, seriously aid in understanding in case of requests for comment, mediation, or arbitration, and make understanding contributors bias as simple as looking, rather than trying to guage that bias by reading pages and pages of contributions. It would force a new level of honesty into the system, and this would facilitate lucid problem solving regarding conflicts.
Perhaps more importantly, persons with serious agendas and biases would thus be encouraged to self identify, and could thereby in some cases be asked to recuse themselves from articles, based on the standard model of conflict of interest.
Lastly, trollish and manipulative behavior and dishonesty would be much easier to identify, because such persons would be likely to undereport their true agendas, and, agendas become apparent after a certain amount of interaction, generally.
I hope that this can be something useful to wikipedia, thanks for your time and energy in consideration. Prometheuspan 21:56, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Prometheuspan 03:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC) oh, thanks, that helps. Prometheuspan 03:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I am very surprised to hear that others don't think that this would be helpful. I honestly hadn't anticipated that in the least. I was sure that the usefulness of the system would be self evident. "misleading disclosures" Actually, I think you miss the point. We don't rely on this, its another tool. "Misleading disclosures" would rapidly become evident. It isn't hard to watch an agenda in progress. Think about it. For anybody with over 100 or so edits, you can probably guess their agenda if you study whats done and said. The point here is to bring a focus and thus lucidity to the issue of agendas, which isn't something wikipedia even discusses. Misleading diclosures would be a give-a-way very quickly of action not in good faith. "Do nothing" I can't see how you can say this. It would do lots regarding that subversion including making subversion more apparent and easier to diagnose. "areas of policy ambiguous" Policy or a set of rules can only get you so far. Sooner or later this comes down to figuring out what a persons agenda is, one way or another. If somebody has an agenda to be disruptive, then we have to figure that out the same as we do now. Straight out liars and con artists would be forced to come up with some good answers, but would still eventually give themselves away. "Particular beef" Are you accusing me of doing that here? Honestly, I am trying to help Wikipedia solve this problem.
Prometheuspan 03:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC) I do think it could be very helpful, it doesn't look to me as i wander around that most people are clear what kinds of biases others have hardly at all. Nobody even says the word "Agenda." Prometheuspan 03:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I hope that both of you will think about this and review the idea carefully in your mind. I am certain it has enormous merit. "Conflict of interest". For instance, I would have to recuse myself from writing the George W. Bush Article, because i would be too biased against him to provide useful assitance in that endeavor. It would be a conflict of interest for me to do that. For instance. conflict of interest
Prometheuspan 01:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Saxifrage, you actually seem to have a full disclosure area of your user page, as if you allready get it. ???? Why did you tell us about your biases? Because its helpful to the effort for everybody to put their biases on the table. You make the argument for it yourself on your user page. ??? If everybody was as honest and forthcoming as you are on your user page, this would be redundant. Think about it. Prometheuspan 01:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Prometheuspan 03:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC) I think that is a good point, but if you were working on an aricle related to George Bush or the rigged elections problem, I think it would become very relevant very quickly. If people didn't want to disclose they don't have to work on the article, or, even, if they didn't want to disclose they could even still work on the article, but have to more or less defer to those that did disclose in disputes. I think you are doing a great job of finding potential holes, but every hole you have found so far seems either illusory in the first place or an easy patch to me personally. "Mandatory" might be much too strong a word and way to think about the whole idea.
As far as "full" goes, people would only be disclosing things relevant to working on highly contested articles. Think of it as a tool used perhaps only after a pov dispute has reached critical mass. Prometheuspan 03:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I have no problem disclosing my biases and agendas (check my user page if you doubt it), but this suggestion is a bit worrisome to me. The No Persoanl Attacks policy says that the following qualifies as an example of a personal attack: "Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views — regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream or extreme." I fear that such a forced-disclosure could (likely would) lead to witch-hunts and edit wars based on affiliations and personal convictions; implicit ownership of articles (e.g., Christians claiming that "hard" Atheists can't edit articles about Christianity because they are too biased, and vise versa); and hasty generalizations. » MonkeeSage « 05:27, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I disclose some things about myself on my user pages (and disclosed more in the past, still accessible in the history), but I much prefer to be judged by my edits than by anything I say about myself. Since we have no way of verifying what editors say about themselves (without engaging in what, in some circumstance, I would consider to be 'stalking'), I much prefer to judge people by their behavior in Wikipedia. In the same vein, if I have learned something about an editor that is not available publicly, I do not reveal it. So, I also do not like any proposal to force editors to disclose biases, viewpoints, etc. -- Donald Albury( Talk) 12:41, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I've said before I favour the notion of knowing where an editor comes from. I have listed my biases, as I understand them, about major topics on my user page. I'd not favour requiring it from every editor! It's an optional thing (I think it makes our interactions better if you know where I am coming from and vice versa but if you don't agree, no biggie) and certainly don't see the need for it anywhere else though. My concern with the above is that it seems to be more than just that although I confess I haven't parsed out what exactly. + + Lar: t/ c 14:58, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Prometheuspan 19:52, 28 April 2006 (UTC) Thanks for your assorted comments. Seeing as i have no support and only people who think its a bad idea responding, i suppose I'll just drop it. I think you are all miscontruing how it would work, and underestimating how helpful it would be. The idea here wasn't for me to generate an actual policy, but to start a policy concept. I think it would be more fair and realistic if people would stop and think about how in theory it might be implemented, before just dismissing it out of hand. In any case, I am slowly coming to the realization that Wikipedia is a mostly headless beneficient dictatorship combined with a loose level of consensus process resulting actually in pack psychology driven anarchy, and, I will probably quit participating, because i don't see that theres any sane way to deal with abusiveness, and the policies in place that do deal with the issues require exorbitant amounts of time and energy, which means that only the very worst problems are ever resolved, and editors who are clearly gaming the system and manipulating and lying can continue to do so as long as they are clever enough not to become a really big pain to some administrator. Prometheuspan 19:52, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately biases are indicated by what people write in an article, not by their background. It doesn't matter whether I'm a gay, liberal, black, communist, or whatever, it's what I write that counts.
But I do agree with you that Wikipedia does come across as headless, and I think that pages and pages of repetition arguments on these pages, demonstrates that, regardless of what some contributors may suggest, it is indeed driven by anarchic consensus, rather than policy. -- Iantresman 01:08, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
(Previously titled Is it OK to say Hitler's a monster because he really is?)
Actually the situation is more complex. People who believe the communists are evil (etc) think they are justified in using POV words to describe communists, because they believe their words REALLY, REALLY fit the communists, so they don't think it's POV to use those words. Eg:
I very much agree. "Persecution" is a very negative term, however, we shouldn't avoid it simply for that reason. What the Chinese government has done fully meets the term's definition, which has been acknowledged by many third party sources, as -someone- mentioned. I opt for "persecution" rather than "crackdown" or "suppression" becuase it more clearly describes the reality of what is being discussed. -names removed-
-- Миборовский U| T| C| M| E| Chugoku Banzai! 18:33, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
From the above it's not clear to me whether the interlocutors were or were not aware that Hitler is actually used as an example in Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Let the facts speak for themselves. In other words: didn't the content of that section already settle the issue brought forward? Or, is someone implying, by bringing this topic up on this page, that something is wrong with that section? -- Francis Schonken 00:01, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
No, it is NOT OK to say Hitler was a monster as this is clearly POV. On the ultimate scale of events, Hitler's actions were actually following some sort of a world-wide order. If Hitler, did not exist, many countries would still be under foreign rule and the world community would still view war with a high level of tolerance. One must remember that Hitler (and no man) is evil in ABSOLUTE terms. -- S iva1979 Talk to me 03:52, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Does NPOV apply to non-controversial subjects, controversial subjects, or both? -- Iantresman 18:30, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
According to the page on POV pushing, only excluding all points of view but one, counts as "POV pushing". Does that infer that including a particular point of view (POV), in a neutral point of view style (NPOV), can not count as "POV pushing" under any circumstances? In other words, mentioning a POV is not POV pushing, otherwise any POV already mentioned in an article can be considerd POV pushing. -- Iantresman 09:09, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Prometheuspan 23:48, 2 May 2006 (UTC) The apparent final application of NPOV becomes MPOV as in "multiple Points of view." This applies where there ARE multiple points of view, and where any given point of view is both noteworthy and sane enough to withstand the obvious scrutiny of basic reality checks. I could write a theory on cosmology based on the divine intervention of the flying spagetti monster. Fortunately for all of us, this would only fly in a humor article, not a cosmology article, because its not a serious REAL Cosmology.
As a newbie, this is only my current interpretation. I keep finding new details that makes me scratch my head for 20 minutes. Prometheuspan 23:48, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
'Objectivity' in my experience is impossible, individuals (myself included) will always write or comment on a subject based on how they have experienced it. Most of what I hear is usually subjective at some level. For every one 'fact' I choose to report, I'm sure I leave out many other 'facts'.
Sorry! NPOV is not realistic IMHO
What may be more realistic is for people to simply take ownership or owe up to what is their opinion or simply state how they 'feel' about the subject (no one can call them a liar or 'have gotten it wrong'). This is a really tough one for historians.
I find it difficult in society which so often encourages people not to state how they feel. (notice I said 'feel' and not 'think').
Have a good one! WIKIPEDIAVI 20:10, 2 May 2006 (UTC) 02May2006
Since your experiences are not objective, then your view on a subject is not acceptable. That's why articles are written from a neutral point of view based on verifiable sources. -- Iantresman 20:34, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Prometheuspan 23:42, 2 May 2006 (UTC) It is true. Neutrality is just a goal. A worthy goal, which, cannot actually be achieved. However, we can get very close to that goal, and the harder we work to achieve it the more closely we aproximate an information resource instead of a propaganda channel.
The policy has already addressed this issue ( WP:NPOV#There's no such thing as objectivity):
You don't have to believe in the possibility of neutrality, nor work toward it; you don't have to believe that biases prevent fair reporting; in the worst case, the policy allows for necessarily biased reporting to be balanced by necessarily counter-biased reporting, with the end result that all views are fairly represented by those who are biased toward them. » MonkeeSage « 23:54, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
When coming into wikipedia, I was soon faced with NPOV since my main interest are horses - a typical flaming topic. Particularly, since my aim was to let people know something about relatively new opinions and evidence about this flaming topic: barefoot horses, bitless riding, treeless saddles, passive leadership... Almost nothing about this was into wiki. I'm mainly working into it.wiki and commons, but sometimes I come into en.wiki (I'm a little discouraged by my far-from-good English). I thoght a lot about NPOV, and some from my first works had been marked with NPOV template. Then, this was my beginner's approach: 1. I looked for a wiki admin with "traditional" horse experience and I asked him to take a look to my work (thanks Ubi!), then I followed her suggestions; 2. I re-discovered by myself the principle "Work for the enemy": I translated many "traditional" horse articles from English into Italian, adding a mention to new opinions and evidences; 3. I posted into commons many horse pictures about traditional farriery too! and I add good links to some good farriery sources to articles that were lacking them. And I tried to discuss NPOV too, when I saw that sometimes there is some mismatch between "CPOV" (Common Point of View) and NPOV. I'd like so much a "EBPOV" (Evidence Based Point of View")! Am I perfectly neutral about horses? Not at all! Simply, I'm doing by best to be. Take a look to Laminitis, its talk page and its history just ho have a example.-- Alex brollo 07:16, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
There is no such thing as NPOV. I think this should be mentioned in the page.
Proofs are: for the English wikipedia, there is no proff Lance Armstrong is doped. For teh French wikipedia, he is. For the English wikipedia, the kingdom of France starts in the late middle age, for the French wikipedia it starts in the Vth century.
Herve661
"But to speak seriously, the universality of an opinion is no proof, nay, it is not even a probability, that the opinion is right." (The Art of Controversy, A. Schopenhauer). This underlines how much "common point of view" is different by "neutral point of view". The ia a hard discussion about truth into medicine (a science dealing with a complex system), and recently emerged the need for a evidence-based medicine.
In brief: when debating about NPOV, it's very important, in my opinion, to look for some evidence supporting a point of view, particularly if it is largely accepted (t.i. "not needing any proof" at a first glance). It's highly probable that such an undocumented point of view is - far from being NPOV - a received idea. Alex brollo 06:23, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Is this recently added sidebar {{Associations/Wikipedia Bad Things}} appropriate in a policy page? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:25, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand how NPOV can really work. It seems it is self-denying. If I understand the idea correctly, NPOV is to be entirely neutral and without judgment. But to be without any hint of judgement doesn't the writer have to move to an amoral position, or at least not observe and describe without using any pejorative or ameliorative comments?
I can understand trying to remain objective but to claim to be without bias seems to be delusional, and stretching for God-like characteristics, as if it were possible to maintain a completely object viewpoint. For example, if I read the page on abortion I can clearly see how all the descriptions are couched around the pro-abortion/pro-choice position while attempting to "sound" objective. It sounds good if you're pro-choice/pro-abortion, but if you are anti-choice/pro-life it feels like the whole NPOV system is hypocritical because it claims objectivity yet the authors can't see even how their position is already so very skewed.
Might it not be a better way to admit that we have biases and allow for "positions" to be held? For example I recently read of a new shared Israeli & Palestinian history book project where history is present from each point of view. The same events are described with one side of the page being explained from an Israeli perspective and the other side of the book being Palestinian. This seems more intellectually honest.
I can understand striving for neutrality but pretending to be without bias seems to color the whole project to me with a sense of dishonesty. Dcsutherland 02:16, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
The problem with being NPOV is that is might show people likes racist or the nazis or the KKK or other hate groups in a good light, instead in the bad light they are supposed to be shown in. That's why I don't like NPOV sometimes on some articles. -Alex, 74.133.188.197 04:30, 13 May 2006 (UTC).
May we change:
"As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view. It is a point of view that is striving for neutrality - a point of view that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject."
to
"As the name suggests, neutrality in the context of the encyclopedia is itself a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints. By adopting the neutral point of view, Wikipedia articles do state a position, one that is neither sympathetic to nor in opposition to its subject."
or some other wording that avoids that avoids the non-statement circularity. Two say yes, Frances says no. Any other comments would be appreciated. Marskell 08:28, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
My commentary re this sentence: "As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence of elimination of viewpoints." is that it doesn't really parse. In particular, "absence of elimination", unless we're talking constipation (:-)), doesn't really mean anything. If I understand the intention (which is far from certain), the line would be: "... NPOV is a point of view, not the absence of a viewpoint or the elimination of all viewpoints". -- Gnetwerker 01:37, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
On March 16th 2006, I requested a change to the last paragraph of the "Reasoning Behind NPOV" section, which received 8:3 support (not counting myself), and after a long discussion and a compromise with one of the editors who was against the change, got to 9:2. I made the change, which was reverted by one of the other two editors who was against the change. This was not a change to the actual policy, only a change in the description of the policy, or more precisely, the description of the reason for the policy.
Is 9:2 a sufficient consensus for such a change? If not, the issue is still open, as I still support my request, and I ask an admin. to please instruct me how to resolve the matter. I am willing to abide my the consensus decision with no further adiue (even if it is against me), which is why I have let the matter rest for a month (since April 2nd); but currently it appears that the consensus is for the change, not against it. I'm not trying to be stubborn or cause any problems, I just want to get the issue resolved. » MonkeeSage « 10:01, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
For goodness sake, just make the freaking change already. :-P And don't mention the '%' symbol in my presence again! >:-> (grrrr) Kim Bruning 14:33, 13 May 2006 (UTC) <performs quick change to innocent look, who me, growling?>
The paragraph currently under discussion:
There is another reason to commit ourselves to this policy. Namely, when it is clear to readers that we do not expect them to adopt any particular opinion, this leaves them free to make up their minds for themselves, thus encouraging intellectual independence. Totalitarian governments and dogmatic institutions everywhere might find reason to be opposed to Wikipedia, if we succeed in adhering to our non-bias policy: the presentation of many competing theories on a wide variety of subjects suggests that we, the editors of Wikipedia, trust readers' competence to form their own opinions. Texts that present multiple viewpoints fairly, without demanding that the reader accept any one of them, are liberating. Neutrality subverts dogmatism, and nearly everyone working on Wikipedia can agree this is a good thing.
is maybe the clearest instance of a Wikipedia mission statement included in a policy page.
That is, the unavoidable "mission statement" by Jimbo ( user:Jimbo Wales/Statement of principles) is not a policy page.
So maybe this is a question to be answered first: can/should Wikipedia policy pages include mission statement-like expressions?
My (personal) answer to this question would be: I tend to see the discussed "reasoning behind NPOV" paragraph as an explicitation and adoption into the community of Jimbo's first principle ("Wikipedia's success to date is 100% a function of our open community"). The paragraph currently under discussion makes explicit that this might conflict with the interests of less open communities, and that we shouldn't dodge awareness of such issue. So I oppose to a formulation that makes that point less transparant. Note that I don't think this should prevent a clearer formulation of the implied principle (see next subsection).
Note also that according to Jimbo's principle #6 a further discussion of this issue can and should probably best be taken to the mailing list. Would that be a good idea? -- Francis Schonken 11:33, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Couldn't we get rid of the "namely" beginning the second sentence of the discussed "reasoning behind NPOV" paragraph? I've been told that the word namely makes reading of an English text less fluent. So I'd try to get rid of that word in order to get a clearer formulation. -- Francis Schonken 11:33, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
NPOV correctly implemented would read dispassionately, in a dry analytic fashion such as:
"The Chicago Police today reported that three suspects were apprehended driving a vehicle which had been reported stolen by the grand-niece of Richard Daley."
, instead of
"Three hoodlums were caught red-handed violating the family tranquility of the beloved Daley family. When apprehended, they were committing a felony by being in possession of stolen car and are likely guilty of many other things as well".
It's really that simple. Hdtopo 05:18, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Following banned user Zephram Stark's attempt to rewrite WP:SOCK using two sockpuppet accounts, there is a proposal to limit the editing of policy pages either to admins, or to editors with six months editing experience and 1,000 edits to articles. Please vote and comment at Wikipedia:Editing policy pages. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:12, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
A source's POV is not something that should necessarily be removed. Quite the opposite, it often is the purpose of Wikipedia to report what the source's POV is. For example, Bytwerk has recommended including a source, Michael Burleigh, who has the opinion (the POV) that "Hitler dissembled his personal views behind preachy invocations of the Almighty". So, in Burleigh's opinion, Hitler was sort of a liar. That's his POV, and it is our job to report it. It's not a fact that Hitler lied about personal views, but it is a fact that Burleigh said that Hitler lied. So, yes we are interested in only giving the facts, but do you see how we report a source's POV here in a factual way? Reporting what a source said, is stating a fact, the source really did say it, regardless of whether what he said was true or false, fact or opinion.
This was what I read from another Wikipedian, but I am unsure about that being correct. The information here does not clearly state about a sources' POV. I do not agree with the above statements. POV'ing ought to be completely left out: just leave the facts, but upon coming here, I didn't see anything about it. Colonel Marksman 13:21, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
"A good rule of thumb in avoiding POV is to never refer to someone in a way you would not want to see used to refer to yourself or a loved one. When writing something such as "the park has had a lot of problems with the homeless," consider that these "homeless" are people and would not want to be described this way. An improvement might be something such as "after the park was renovated, park officials began taking steps to show that individuals who were homeless were not welcome there."
So, it's ok to insert the opinions of sources (historians/books/articles), but Wikipedians (editors) can't? "Just as long as you state the source?"
Wikipedians are the ones who insert the quotes and the sources. They insert opinons by citing those sources which have such, and it may not even uphold their own opinons either (I really don't think African-Americans are screwing America). Colonel Marksman 16:11, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
The idea is to avoid undue weight (read WP:NPOV). As I said, it would not be neutral if we cherrypick our sources. You can find many sources saying Blacks are screwing the US of A, but there would be an equal amount of sources arguing otherwise. Therefore, it is illogical to exclude one or the other if we want to remain neutral. The key phrase here is avoiding undue weight.
Beside the point anyway. Would it not make sense to only state the facts? Colonel Marksman 20:56, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
The article on pseudoscience states: The term "pseudoscience" generally has negative connotations because it asserts that things so labeled are inaccurately or deceptively described as science. If a term 'generally has negative connotations', can using it for categorization purposes be NPOV? Is there a suitable term that would be politically correct in terms of WP NPOV policy? Aquirata 12:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
After rounding the bend in my WP learning curve, I have come to realize that the terminology "Neutral Point of View" is actually doing more harm than good. Every discussion and argument tends to bring this up, one accusing another of not being in conformity with WP:NPOV. That should make a red flag go up that there is something wrong. Rules should be clear enough for the majority to understand what it means. The very wording lends itself to being misunderstood. The idea of "point of view" immediately brings to mind something "personal". This causes a lot of battles. It really is something more objective than that. I witness people who have had much experience here falling into the trap of treating NPOV contrary to the intention of the policy. The policy states that NPOV cannot be interpreted inseparably from verifiability. This is crucial. People don't seem to get what that really entails. It means that NPOV really only comes into play because you have found that two or more reliable sources of verification are opposed to each other. Once that happens NPOV is a solution to it. NPOV is really just a reasonable Reconciliation of Reliable Sources. (RRS, or AWR=Average Weight of Reliability). That means the sources themselves must be weighed as to reliability, and an average taken so that the final wording of the article conforms to that reconciliation. You could have a New York Times article saying the opposite of the Washington Post. The final RRS would probably be 50/50 reliability and perfectly neutral (though one could probably argue section and authorship since newspapers more hastily print depending on those factors). Then again, why choose reconciling opposites when you know that reality cannot have opposites in truth? Why not try to find which one is correct? If you have a source from the Scientific American and Readers Digest opposed on a fact, it would depend upon the subject matter (science or not?) and their own referenced sources. If it was more of a scientific fact, the weight would be in favor of the SA article and the final RRS (formerly NPOV) would be wording in accord with the average weight of reliability. Bottom line, personal opinion is minimized. But a major factor in minimizing it is by changing NPOV to something more accurate as I suggested. What needs to be done also is to have a separate page of WOR (Weight of Reliability). Let's face it, we all know that different magazines and newspapers have varying degrees of reliability. Newspapers are notorious for haste and waste when it comes to errors. Just because something is published in a magazine doesn't necessarily give is a high degree of reliability either (Mad Magazine?). As WP says, it is based on verifiability, and the term NPOV is constantly at odds because it gives people the wrong impression of what it is all about. The better the rules, the less argument, hard drive and administrator time spent. Moderation and arbitrations, etc. would be lessened. RFC's would be easier. Admins would have more time just handling truly abusive people rather than the abuses fostered by ill-chosen policy terminology. So far I have already found another contradiction in the policy, which I have recently expressed on the Talk page for Verifiability, which involes the guideline on reliable sources reducing policy to a mere guideline itself. ( Diligens 11:03, 23 May 2006 (UTC))
Here's a strategy for handling that issue I once proposed ( [10] - dates back to October 2004):
No it isn't: the expression POV is used by many wikipedians, but in fact it is a confusing term, often leading to a re-introduction of the "objectivity" concept, which above is dismissed for use in Wikipedia context. This can be exemplified by following quote (taken from a real Wikipedia discussion):
The confusion comes from the fact that POV can also be read as the abbreviation of "Point Of View" (which is inherently good for Wikipedia, or, at least, the basic stuff Wikipedia is made of), while many wikipedians use POV in the meaning of opposite of NPOV. Even when attempting to use the expression POV exclusively in this latter meaning, the objectivity concept appears to be lurking around the corner.
If you want to use an abbreviation that means opposite of NPOV, try any of these:
... I recall it survived a few weeks or so.
The longer Wikipedia exists, the deeper-rooted the dual meaning of POV (" opposite of NPOV" - " point of view") appears to become.
But on the whole (taking the bad and the good), I don't think the use of the NPOV concept in Wikipedia is counterproductive, nor do I see any approach that demonstrably would be more successful. -- Francis Schonken 12:59, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
A large part of this article is an essay-like discussion of hypothetical common arguments and responses.
Can we put these in an article Common objections to NPOV or Validity of NPOV and summarize in a dozen lines here? Essay-style material to this extent isn't really needed in a major policy. Better we summarize here and point to detail. FT2 ( Talk) 11:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
No. WP:NPOV is exemplary of how all wikipedia namespace pages should look. A reasoned NPOV discussion (1) of the how and why of each aspect of a particular guideline. Policy pages may describe our internal processes, but that does not mean that they should not be held to the same standards as our encyclopedia pages. Rather, over time it should be our objective to edit all our other policy/guideline/essay pages into a similar form. Kim Bruning 13:20, 23 May 2006 (UTC) (1)yes, I'm aware of the recursion