This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Some of the criticisms against the current formulation of NPOV ignore the other policies. Therefore, before we begin to write a clearer formulation, it is important that we agree on its correct interpretation in the light of other policies. It would be useful that someone that has a lot of experience with the NPOV policy and the other policies explains how the NPOV policy, especially the section WP:NPOV#A simple formulation, is or can be rewritten in a way that is consistent with the other mandatory content policies: WP:V and WP:NOR. I have my own viewpoint and I intend to defend it, but I think it will be easier if we start with the viewpoint of someone that has more experience with the WP policies. -- Lumiere 16:43, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Let me offer my comments based on my 17 months here on Wikipedia.
The essence of what a neutral point of view is is relatively straightforward (although it can be difficult to apply in certain places in practice). I see Ben above has listed out a number of definitions, but only two are appropriate here:
These two alone show what is meant by a neutral point of view (or to put it another way, what is meant by a neutral viewpoint). It's really as simple as that! All the other bits of discussion above (in particular the rather convoluted comments from Ben) are largely irrelevant, jguk 12:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
It is not Wikipedia policy that "the editors' consensus should be written from a neutral point of view", it is that "articles should be written from a neutral point of view". This policy says absolutely nothing about consensus on Wikipedia - that issue is discussed separately on WP:Consensus, jguk 13:18, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Jguk, your comment on the top of this section is more about the title that we should give to the policy than it is about the formulation of the policy. I am aware that you did not intend to discuss the title, but only argued that the NPOV policy is so simple that the essential is all contained in the title. I disagree and consider that your comment is at the best an argument in favor of the title. OTOH, my request was directly about the formulation of the policy: a WP content policy should be clear, well connected with other WP content policies and explained with good examples. Could you please consider my request directly?
Now, as far as the title is concerned, I think it is not that clear. What is neutral? Is it that each viewpoint expressed in an article is neutral or that somehow we claim that neutrality is achieved when we allow a collection of opposite viewpoints? I have my own answer and I am sure you have yours, but to the contrary of what you suggest, one cannot find an answer just from the current title. Of course, no title will be perfect and it is reasonable that a title needs to be explained. Still, I think that we could find a better title. Again, this is not my main concern. My main concern is about the formulation of the policy itself, not about the title. -- Lumiere 13:42, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Anon, the article as a whole does not need to be neutral as a whole (as perceived by every reader). It just needs to be written from a neutral viewpoint. Take the example of a convicted murderer who believes he has been unjustly convicted - a neutral viewpoint will leave someone reading the article with the impression that the guy is a convicted murderer. It is irrelevant that the guy himself would find it objectionable, jguk 17:36, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
No. What I am saying is the question to ask to determine if an article is compliant with this policy is "Is this article written from a neutral viewpoint?", not any other question you may wish to raise, however related you may think that question is, jguk 18:40, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I think it is necessary to understand the above discussion in the light of an example that is close and important for us. It is easy to say that it is perfectly fine to present all viewpoints on a subject, etc. in the abstract, but let see what it means if we consider a case that is important for us. A good choice is to take this WP policy article as an example --this is certainly an example of an article that is very important for some of us. Of course, the reality is that this policy article is much less important than say an article on drugs that can save life, but it is closer to us. Anyone that would argue that a WP policy article should be considered a special case is highly biased. It is not at all a special case, and if the NPOV policy works well, it should work well for the writing of a WP policy without having to appeal to special rules.
Now, let us see what is the implication of one possible interpretation of the NPOV policy when we applied it to the NPOV policy itself. We would have a policy that states "Iantresman says that the policy is ... " Others such as Jguk, say that to the contrary the policy is ...". This seems to be perfectly in accord with one possible interpretation of the NPOV policy. Of course, such a policy would not be very helpful to determine how to resolve a dispute. What I am saying is that clearly there is a need to make use of other policies to guarantee that WP contains useful articles. Put yourself in the position of someone that wants to write an article about a drug that can save life, and he find himself with an article poluted with all sorts of conflicting opinions! I would like to emphasize that an article about a drug that can save life is certainly not less important than a WP policy, and the WP policy is not a special example at all. -- Lumiere 19:40, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Written before I read the above comments of Iantresman: Thinking more about it, it may be that some believe that a WP policy is a special case because they feel that it is important that a WP policy contains information that stands by itself so that one does not have to rely on other sources to determine what is the policy. These people might feel that, on the other hand, it is perfectly fine that all other articles contain conflicting viewpoints, some of these viewpoints perhaps completely unfair, with no clue as to which one is correct and which one is not correct, so that one is left in a state of complete confusion that is even worst than if he did not read the article at all. -- Lumiere 20:01, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I was perhaps a little bit weak in the above paragraphs because I suggested that we can resolve the problem simply by given some clues as to which viewpoint is correct, but this is not enough. Some viewpoints need to be completely suppressed as allowed with WP:NOR or WP:V. This is what is not clear enough in the formulation of NPOV. -- Lumiere 21:25, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
One of the problems I have with the article as it stands, is that it does not make it clear that NPOV has (a) a couple of different meanings, and (b) would probably be applied differently to general and specific articles. Although you can probably find this within the article, I think it would make people more aware of them, if this was summarised in the introduction. For example:
Wikipedia policy is that articles should be written from a neutral point of view, representing all majority and significant-minority views fairly and without bias. According to Wikipedia founder Jimbo Wales, NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable". [2] "Neutral point of view" refers to two distinct areas of article writing: (1) The representation of facts in a neutral manner, that may be attributed and be verifiable. (ie. no judgements, opinions or ascertions) (2) The presentation of an article on a general subject in a balanced and fair manner (articles on a specific subject describing a specific point of view should not be balanced by including competing views, but should just acknowledge them fairly and without bias.) For guidance on how to make an article conform to the neutral point of view (NPOV), see the NPOV tutorial, where more example are provided. |
I would welcome criticism, with specific examples indicating where this may not work, or be accurate. -- Iantresman 19:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia policy is that articles should be written from a neutral point of view, representing all notable views fairly and without bias. According to Wikipedia founder Jimbo Wales, NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable". [3] "Neutral point of view" refers to two distinct aspects of article writing: (1) The representation of verifiable facts in a neutral manner (ie. no judgements, opinions or assertions) (2) The presentation of an article on a general subject in a fairly balanced manner (articles on a specific subject describing a specific point of view should primarily discuss that specific subject and thus only briefly acknowledge competing views, but with proper links and/or references.) For guidance on how to make an article conform to the neutral point of view (NPOV), see the NPOV tutorial, where more examples are provided. |
Harald88 23:03, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I disagree that a new introduction will address the issue. It is the entire formulation of the policy that must be considered. I think the first step is that we explain clearly the policy with the help of examples. It should be easier for those who have a lot of experience to explain the policy with examples than for me to try to explain what is not clear with this policy also with the help of examples. You are suggesting that the tutorial contains examples. Great! I think that it will be useful to refer to some of them in this talk page and perhaps eventually in the project page. -- Lumiere 20:34, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I just read the tutorial. It contains useful information that I feel is not included in the policy itself. For example, there is almost nothing, if not nothing, about insinuation in the policy itself whereas the tutorial as a nice section about it. It is almost like another formulation of the policy that contains aspect that are not covered in the main policy, but perhaps omits other points that are included in the main policy. That is not so good. The tutorial should illustrate the policy and explain it without introducing new concepts such as insinuation. In this case, I think that the concept of insinuation should be covered in the main policy. However, I have a much more serious concern about how badly connected it is with other policies. Consider the section NPOV_tutorial#Expertise. Here it is suggested that the expertise of the author should be used to determine how much his viewpoint has a place in the article. This is not well connected with the other policies which emphasises that we should consider the publisher instead. I believe that it is clear from the other policies that even the best expert has to first publish its view in a reputable publication before it can be included in WP. So, I am even more convinced than ever that the current formulation of NPOV, including its tutorial, has a serious problem of connection with the other policies. -- Lumiere 21:01, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
If the idea was not to only rewrite the Intro, but only to begin with the Intro, then I am less in opposition. I was told a few times in my formation that the Intro is in fact the last thing to consider, but as long as we come to consider the entire formulation at some point, I guess it is OK. Simply, I personally will not get involved with the Intro at this point. -- Lumiere 21:15, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I think much of the confusion is that the NPOV policy mixes two completely separate things. This is an important distinction pointed out by Iantresman.
The notion of a "Neutral viewpoint" is actually very simple to explain. It is a very "mechanical" style of prose and shouldn't be difficult to convey clearly and concisely.
The notion of "Balance", however, is not that straightforward and requires a lot of dicussion.
Separating the above terms will be a major step in understanding this policy properly (and it being understood properly). -- 84.228.107.148 22:21, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
What, exactly, would a section on Balance say? How do we determine what proportion of an article should be dedicated to a particular point of view? Take these questions as rhetorical. Banno 22:56, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Here's a suggestion: let's start with the easy part first and make a draft formulation that deals exclusively with the "Neutral viewpoint" part. Then move to the harder part (balance). -- 84.228.107.148 23:04, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
(draft)
A wikipedia article is written from a neutral viewpoint. Writing from a neutral viewpoint means stating facts about views, rather than asserting them, as well as being fair and not engaging in any of the views. It is also required that all facts are verifiable.
Balance is a general quality of an article that means views are represented according to their significance. Balance is especially important on disputed or general subjects, in which there are usually many viewpoints that deserve representation. Significance is a subjective measure that is agreed by wikipedia's editors, based on general support, verifiability (citations) and relevance to the subject.
(edit: I have made some changes to the draft, so the discussion below is obsolete)
I congratulate you for your insight! Until now, I never realized that some people only saw what you call the "Neutral Viewpoint" aspect of NPOV, and not what you call its "Balance" aspect. On my side, I somehow ignored the "Neutral Viewpoint" aspect, because I felt it was superficial in comparison with Balance, but that was my mistake. If we don't confuse these two aspects, they are both important. I completely agree that a separation of these two aspects will be a great improvement.
I would like to add the following. I think that we should include in Balance the preliminary consideration which is what viewpoints are acceptable and must be balanced. In fact, it is just an extreme case: some viewpoints might have 25%, some others 5%, but then there is also the 0% case. The viewpoints that are not acceptable are those that correspond to original research, those that lack of sources, etc. This required selection is already implicit in the current formulation of NPOV, but the connection with WP:NOR and WP:V is not well explained.
I would also like to argue that the most controversial aspect is not so much the balance aspect between the viewpoints that are acceptable, but what is acceptable or not acceptable. The point is that in most cases when someone is open to a viewpoint in an article, he also understand how much space should naturally be given to that viewpoint. On the other hand, if you don't like a viewpoint, then you do not want to see it at all in the article, and even a short sentence that give a reference for more details is not welcome. Therefore, I believe that good policies that take care of what is acceptable or not, should be enough to resolve most disputes. It is true that we do not have a policy to determine how balance between acceptable viewpoints should be enforced, but I think it is not that bad. -- Lumiere 04:29, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Neutral aspect | General article On competiting views | Specific article On a specific view |
Tone (Verifiable facts) (ie. no judgements, opinions or ascertions) | Required | Required |
Statement bias | Allowed if it is verifiable Disallowed if it is not | |
Article balance (ie. Competing views) | Required (Weighted) | Not required (May be acknowledged) |
Here's how I see neutrality, and how it applies to general and specific articles. I note the following:
-- Iantresman 10:22, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
False information would never be acceptable in Wikipedia - but that is because it is contrary to our Verifiability policy, not because it is necessarily contrary to our Neutral Point of View policy. To make a clearer analogy, if you murder someone, you have not committed an offence under the Theft Act - but just because you haven't committed an offence under the Theft Act doesn't mean it is ok to murder people, you have just committed an offence under another provision (here the Homicide Act), jguk 13:36, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Without warning, User:David Gerard suddenly banned me for editing (or in his words "messing around"). He then locked the article. User:Katefan0 subsequently reverted all of the recent edits to the page. Both these users promptly abandoned this page without a trace. I think these users owe me and all the people who have recently contributed to this page an explanation (more than that one sentence). Bensaccount 17:22, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Bensaccount! I am glad you are back! Were you banned for editing all this time? -- Lumiere 00:37, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Can we all agree to this as a way to get this page unprotected again:
We've all seen arguments where people keep arguing that this is "POV" or someone is being "POV" where in normal English we'd just call something an "opinion" and note that someone has an opinion on something. Indeed, the made-up term POV is bandied around usually to mean something along the lines of - you are wrong, I am right, and because it is a NPOV issue, the point is non-negotiable, which isn't a very good place to start from if the issue is to be resolved. Plus far too many people read NPOV as equating to "no point of view" as opposed to the real requirement, which is to write from a neutral viewpoint.
My blue sky thinking (which I don't claim to be a panacea, just an interesting thought) is why don't we rename the policy page Wikipedia:Neutral viewpoint and make the shortcut link to it WP:NEUVIEW (or WP:NEUTVIEW). It goes without saying that the underlying concept behind the policy would remain completely unchanged - just the name of the page would change - plus it would enhance people's perceptions that it is about requiring a neutral viewpoint, rather than no viewpoint, or neutrality more generally: it would help define the policy in positive terms and (and perhaps I'm going too far here:) ) may help stop content disputes escalating in scale and viciousness, jguk 12:38, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Jgug, can you tell me what magical word you used to attract the attention of so many people on a title issue? Anon84.x, Iantresman, myself and others are trying to get the attention of people on the actual content of the policy, which seems much more important at this stage than a title issue, but we don't have as much success as you do. Is it that the only way to attract the attention of people is to propose a move at the superficial level? Maybe Wikipedians are thinking "Discuss the real issue with WP as much as you want, we don't care, as long as you do not change how it looks". -- Lumiere 13:30, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Is this because there was something said in the #wikipedia IRC? May I login in this IRC channel? There is something more important to be said. -- Lumiere 22:00, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
I have made a very minimal (less is more?) new draft proposal based on recent discussion. What do you think about it? -- Anon84.x 13:55, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
I think the small draft is a big conceptual improvement over the current formulation. The main improvement is the clarification that the policy is more than just about a neutral form of writing, but also about significance. However, one must realize that the term "significance" becomes a very loaded term, which in accordance with our discussion on WP:V and WP:NOR (see above), includes all the notions that can be used to suppress a viewpoint (i.e. it includes the case of null significance). Also, the small paragraph already acknowledge that the concept of significance includes the relevance to the topic, which is also related to WP:V and WP:NOR. The warning is that we should be very careful when we unfold the details that we do not create new rules that are disconnected from WP:V and WP:NOR and can even conflict with them. We should as much as possible refer to WP:V and WP:NOR instead of providing new criteria or even reformulating a new language for WP:V or WP:NOR. If needed we can work with the editors of WP:V and WP:NOR to clarify their policy. At the end, the whole thing will perhaps turn out to be very simple, with a only a few references to WP:NOR and WP:V there and there. However, the path to this goal might require some vigilance. -- Lumiere 18:17, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
I already have a problem with the term "general support", which is used in the small draft. It is not clear what it means. We have to make sure that it does not suggest a new criteria to determine the acceptability of some content that is in conflict with WP:V or WP:NOR. This is what I mean when I say that we must attempt to connect with other policies as much as possible. -- Lumiere 18:17, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Some of the criticisms against the current formulation of NPOV ignore the other policies. Therefore, before we begin to write a clearer formulation, it is important that we agree on its correct interpretation in the light of other policies. It would be useful that someone that has a lot of experience with the NPOV policy and the other policies explains how the NPOV policy, especially the section WP:NPOV#A simple formulation, is or can be rewritten in a way that is consistent with the other mandatory content policies: WP:V and WP:NOR. I have my own viewpoint and I intend to defend it, but I think it will be easier if we start with the viewpoint of someone that has more experience with the WP policies. -- Lumiere 16:43, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Let me offer my comments based on my 17 months here on Wikipedia.
The essence of what a neutral point of view is is relatively straightforward (although it can be difficult to apply in certain places in practice). I see Ben above has listed out a number of definitions, but only two are appropriate here:
These two alone show what is meant by a neutral point of view (or to put it another way, what is meant by a neutral viewpoint). It's really as simple as that! All the other bits of discussion above (in particular the rather convoluted comments from Ben) are largely irrelevant, jguk 12:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
It is not Wikipedia policy that "the editors' consensus should be written from a neutral point of view", it is that "articles should be written from a neutral point of view". This policy says absolutely nothing about consensus on Wikipedia - that issue is discussed separately on WP:Consensus, jguk 13:18, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Jguk, your comment on the top of this section is more about the title that we should give to the policy than it is about the formulation of the policy. I am aware that you did not intend to discuss the title, but only argued that the NPOV policy is so simple that the essential is all contained in the title. I disagree and consider that your comment is at the best an argument in favor of the title. OTOH, my request was directly about the formulation of the policy: a WP content policy should be clear, well connected with other WP content policies and explained with good examples. Could you please consider my request directly?
Now, as far as the title is concerned, I think it is not that clear. What is neutral? Is it that each viewpoint expressed in an article is neutral or that somehow we claim that neutrality is achieved when we allow a collection of opposite viewpoints? I have my own answer and I am sure you have yours, but to the contrary of what you suggest, one cannot find an answer just from the current title. Of course, no title will be perfect and it is reasonable that a title needs to be explained. Still, I think that we could find a better title. Again, this is not my main concern. My main concern is about the formulation of the policy itself, not about the title. -- Lumiere 13:42, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Anon, the article as a whole does not need to be neutral as a whole (as perceived by every reader). It just needs to be written from a neutral viewpoint. Take the example of a convicted murderer who believes he has been unjustly convicted - a neutral viewpoint will leave someone reading the article with the impression that the guy is a convicted murderer. It is irrelevant that the guy himself would find it objectionable, jguk 17:36, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
No. What I am saying is the question to ask to determine if an article is compliant with this policy is "Is this article written from a neutral viewpoint?", not any other question you may wish to raise, however related you may think that question is, jguk 18:40, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I think it is necessary to understand the above discussion in the light of an example that is close and important for us. It is easy to say that it is perfectly fine to present all viewpoints on a subject, etc. in the abstract, but let see what it means if we consider a case that is important for us. A good choice is to take this WP policy article as an example --this is certainly an example of an article that is very important for some of us. Of course, the reality is that this policy article is much less important than say an article on drugs that can save life, but it is closer to us. Anyone that would argue that a WP policy article should be considered a special case is highly biased. It is not at all a special case, and if the NPOV policy works well, it should work well for the writing of a WP policy without having to appeal to special rules.
Now, let us see what is the implication of one possible interpretation of the NPOV policy when we applied it to the NPOV policy itself. We would have a policy that states "Iantresman says that the policy is ... " Others such as Jguk, say that to the contrary the policy is ...". This seems to be perfectly in accord with one possible interpretation of the NPOV policy. Of course, such a policy would not be very helpful to determine how to resolve a dispute. What I am saying is that clearly there is a need to make use of other policies to guarantee that WP contains useful articles. Put yourself in the position of someone that wants to write an article about a drug that can save life, and he find himself with an article poluted with all sorts of conflicting opinions! I would like to emphasize that an article about a drug that can save life is certainly not less important than a WP policy, and the WP policy is not a special example at all. -- Lumiere 19:40, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Written before I read the above comments of Iantresman: Thinking more about it, it may be that some believe that a WP policy is a special case because they feel that it is important that a WP policy contains information that stands by itself so that one does not have to rely on other sources to determine what is the policy. These people might feel that, on the other hand, it is perfectly fine that all other articles contain conflicting viewpoints, some of these viewpoints perhaps completely unfair, with no clue as to which one is correct and which one is not correct, so that one is left in a state of complete confusion that is even worst than if he did not read the article at all. -- Lumiere 20:01, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I was perhaps a little bit weak in the above paragraphs because I suggested that we can resolve the problem simply by given some clues as to which viewpoint is correct, but this is not enough. Some viewpoints need to be completely suppressed as allowed with WP:NOR or WP:V. This is what is not clear enough in the formulation of NPOV. -- Lumiere 21:25, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
One of the problems I have with the article as it stands, is that it does not make it clear that NPOV has (a) a couple of different meanings, and (b) would probably be applied differently to general and specific articles. Although you can probably find this within the article, I think it would make people more aware of them, if this was summarised in the introduction. For example:
Wikipedia policy is that articles should be written from a neutral point of view, representing all majority and significant-minority views fairly and without bias. According to Wikipedia founder Jimbo Wales, NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable". [2] "Neutral point of view" refers to two distinct areas of article writing: (1) The representation of facts in a neutral manner, that may be attributed and be verifiable. (ie. no judgements, opinions or ascertions) (2) The presentation of an article on a general subject in a balanced and fair manner (articles on a specific subject describing a specific point of view should not be balanced by including competing views, but should just acknowledge them fairly and without bias.) For guidance on how to make an article conform to the neutral point of view (NPOV), see the NPOV tutorial, where more example are provided. |
I would welcome criticism, with specific examples indicating where this may not work, or be accurate. -- Iantresman 19:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia policy is that articles should be written from a neutral point of view, representing all notable views fairly and without bias. According to Wikipedia founder Jimbo Wales, NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable". [3] "Neutral point of view" refers to two distinct aspects of article writing: (1) The representation of verifiable facts in a neutral manner (ie. no judgements, opinions or assertions) (2) The presentation of an article on a general subject in a fairly balanced manner (articles on a specific subject describing a specific point of view should primarily discuss that specific subject and thus only briefly acknowledge competing views, but with proper links and/or references.) For guidance on how to make an article conform to the neutral point of view (NPOV), see the NPOV tutorial, where more examples are provided. |
Harald88 23:03, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I disagree that a new introduction will address the issue. It is the entire formulation of the policy that must be considered. I think the first step is that we explain clearly the policy with the help of examples. It should be easier for those who have a lot of experience to explain the policy with examples than for me to try to explain what is not clear with this policy also with the help of examples. You are suggesting that the tutorial contains examples. Great! I think that it will be useful to refer to some of them in this talk page and perhaps eventually in the project page. -- Lumiere 20:34, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I just read the tutorial. It contains useful information that I feel is not included in the policy itself. For example, there is almost nothing, if not nothing, about insinuation in the policy itself whereas the tutorial as a nice section about it. It is almost like another formulation of the policy that contains aspect that are not covered in the main policy, but perhaps omits other points that are included in the main policy. That is not so good. The tutorial should illustrate the policy and explain it without introducing new concepts such as insinuation. In this case, I think that the concept of insinuation should be covered in the main policy. However, I have a much more serious concern about how badly connected it is with other policies. Consider the section NPOV_tutorial#Expertise. Here it is suggested that the expertise of the author should be used to determine how much his viewpoint has a place in the article. This is not well connected with the other policies which emphasises that we should consider the publisher instead. I believe that it is clear from the other policies that even the best expert has to first publish its view in a reputable publication before it can be included in WP. So, I am even more convinced than ever that the current formulation of NPOV, including its tutorial, has a serious problem of connection with the other policies. -- Lumiere 21:01, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
If the idea was not to only rewrite the Intro, but only to begin with the Intro, then I am less in opposition. I was told a few times in my formation that the Intro is in fact the last thing to consider, but as long as we come to consider the entire formulation at some point, I guess it is OK. Simply, I personally will not get involved with the Intro at this point. -- Lumiere 21:15, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I think much of the confusion is that the NPOV policy mixes two completely separate things. This is an important distinction pointed out by Iantresman.
The notion of a "Neutral viewpoint" is actually very simple to explain. It is a very "mechanical" style of prose and shouldn't be difficult to convey clearly and concisely.
The notion of "Balance", however, is not that straightforward and requires a lot of dicussion.
Separating the above terms will be a major step in understanding this policy properly (and it being understood properly). -- 84.228.107.148 22:21, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
What, exactly, would a section on Balance say? How do we determine what proportion of an article should be dedicated to a particular point of view? Take these questions as rhetorical. Banno 22:56, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Here's a suggestion: let's start with the easy part first and make a draft formulation that deals exclusively with the "Neutral viewpoint" part. Then move to the harder part (balance). -- 84.228.107.148 23:04, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
(draft)
A wikipedia article is written from a neutral viewpoint. Writing from a neutral viewpoint means stating facts about views, rather than asserting them, as well as being fair and not engaging in any of the views. It is also required that all facts are verifiable.
Balance is a general quality of an article that means views are represented according to their significance. Balance is especially important on disputed or general subjects, in which there are usually many viewpoints that deserve representation. Significance is a subjective measure that is agreed by wikipedia's editors, based on general support, verifiability (citations) and relevance to the subject.
(edit: I have made some changes to the draft, so the discussion below is obsolete)
I congratulate you for your insight! Until now, I never realized that some people only saw what you call the "Neutral Viewpoint" aspect of NPOV, and not what you call its "Balance" aspect. On my side, I somehow ignored the "Neutral Viewpoint" aspect, because I felt it was superficial in comparison with Balance, but that was my mistake. If we don't confuse these two aspects, they are both important. I completely agree that a separation of these two aspects will be a great improvement.
I would like to add the following. I think that we should include in Balance the preliminary consideration which is what viewpoints are acceptable and must be balanced. In fact, it is just an extreme case: some viewpoints might have 25%, some others 5%, but then there is also the 0% case. The viewpoints that are not acceptable are those that correspond to original research, those that lack of sources, etc. This required selection is already implicit in the current formulation of NPOV, but the connection with WP:NOR and WP:V is not well explained.
I would also like to argue that the most controversial aspect is not so much the balance aspect between the viewpoints that are acceptable, but what is acceptable or not acceptable. The point is that in most cases when someone is open to a viewpoint in an article, he also understand how much space should naturally be given to that viewpoint. On the other hand, if you don't like a viewpoint, then you do not want to see it at all in the article, and even a short sentence that give a reference for more details is not welcome. Therefore, I believe that good policies that take care of what is acceptable or not, should be enough to resolve most disputes. It is true that we do not have a policy to determine how balance between acceptable viewpoints should be enforced, but I think it is not that bad. -- Lumiere 04:29, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Neutral aspect | General article On competiting views | Specific article On a specific view |
Tone (Verifiable facts) (ie. no judgements, opinions or ascertions) | Required | Required |
Statement bias | Allowed if it is verifiable Disallowed if it is not | |
Article balance (ie. Competing views) | Required (Weighted) | Not required (May be acknowledged) |
Here's how I see neutrality, and how it applies to general and specific articles. I note the following:
-- Iantresman 10:22, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
False information would never be acceptable in Wikipedia - but that is because it is contrary to our Verifiability policy, not because it is necessarily contrary to our Neutral Point of View policy. To make a clearer analogy, if you murder someone, you have not committed an offence under the Theft Act - but just because you haven't committed an offence under the Theft Act doesn't mean it is ok to murder people, you have just committed an offence under another provision (here the Homicide Act), jguk 13:36, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Without warning, User:David Gerard suddenly banned me for editing (or in his words "messing around"). He then locked the article. User:Katefan0 subsequently reverted all of the recent edits to the page. Both these users promptly abandoned this page without a trace. I think these users owe me and all the people who have recently contributed to this page an explanation (more than that one sentence). Bensaccount 17:22, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Bensaccount! I am glad you are back! Were you banned for editing all this time? -- Lumiere 00:37, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Can we all agree to this as a way to get this page unprotected again:
We've all seen arguments where people keep arguing that this is "POV" or someone is being "POV" where in normal English we'd just call something an "opinion" and note that someone has an opinion on something. Indeed, the made-up term POV is bandied around usually to mean something along the lines of - you are wrong, I am right, and because it is a NPOV issue, the point is non-negotiable, which isn't a very good place to start from if the issue is to be resolved. Plus far too many people read NPOV as equating to "no point of view" as opposed to the real requirement, which is to write from a neutral viewpoint.
My blue sky thinking (which I don't claim to be a panacea, just an interesting thought) is why don't we rename the policy page Wikipedia:Neutral viewpoint and make the shortcut link to it WP:NEUVIEW (or WP:NEUTVIEW). It goes without saying that the underlying concept behind the policy would remain completely unchanged - just the name of the page would change - plus it would enhance people's perceptions that it is about requiring a neutral viewpoint, rather than no viewpoint, or neutrality more generally: it would help define the policy in positive terms and (and perhaps I'm going too far here:) ) may help stop content disputes escalating in scale and viciousness, jguk 12:38, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Jgug, can you tell me what magical word you used to attract the attention of so many people on a title issue? Anon84.x, Iantresman, myself and others are trying to get the attention of people on the actual content of the policy, which seems much more important at this stage than a title issue, but we don't have as much success as you do. Is it that the only way to attract the attention of people is to propose a move at the superficial level? Maybe Wikipedians are thinking "Discuss the real issue with WP as much as you want, we don't care, as long as you do not change how it looks". -- Lumiere 13:30, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Is this because there was something said in the #wikipedia IRC? May I login in this IRC channel? There is something more important to be said. -- Lumiere 22:00, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
I have made a very minimal (less is more?) new draft proposal based on recent discussion. What do you think about it? -- Anon84.x 13:55, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
I think the small draft is a big conceptual improvement over the current formulation. The main improvement is the clarification that the policy is more than just about a neutral form of writing, but also about significance. However, one must realize that the term "significance" becomes a very loaded term, which in accordance with our discussion on WP:V and WP:NOR (see above), includes all the notions that can be used to suppress a viewpoint (i.e. it includes the case of null significance). Also, the small paragraph already acknowledge that the concept of significance includes the relevance to the topic, which is also related to WP:V and WP:NOR. The warning is that we should be very careful when we unfold the details that we do not create new rules that are disconnected from WP:V and WP:NOR and can even conflict with them. We should as much as possible refer to WP:V and WP:NOR instead of providing new criteria or even reformulating a new language for WP:V or WP:NOR. If needed we can work with the editors of WP:V and WP:NOR to clarify their policy. At the end, the whole thing will perhaps turn out to be very simple, with a only a few references to WP:NOR and WP:V there and there. However, the path to this goal might require some vigilance. -- Lumiere 18:17, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
I already have a problem with the term "general support", which is used in the small draft. It is not clear what it means. We have to make sure that it does not suggest a new criteria to determine the acceptability of some content that is in conflict with WP:V or WP:NOR. This is what I mean when I say that we must attempt to connect with other policies as much as possible. -- Lumiere 18:17, 26 January 2006 (UTC)