This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Crossfirism - the tendency of articles to give the false appearance of NPOV by including a criticism section, but then proceeding to include a point->counter-point debunking of all the criticism in said section. Something really needs to be said about this practice on Wikipedia, because offering criticism than trying to debunk as its presented is not terribly POV. This seems to be fairly common. Another less common practice I've noticed is POV inclusionism. That is, people would rather keep inaccurate and very POV information in an article than have that information completely removed, even when they admit that it's blatantly POV. I'm not talking about when someone removes an entire paragraph because of a single bad sentence, I'm talking about selective removal of just POV sentences. Something about that has to do stop.
There's also a related tendency for POV pushers to assume an expiration date on NPOV tag notices. I've seen several people say things like "I don't like seeing that NPOV tag up there for so long, so I'll just remove it even though the situation hasn't been addressed." People do this acknowledging an unfixed POV issue. It should be emphasized that NPOV tags have no expiration date and remain indefinitely until the dispute is resolved.
Nathan J. Yoder 23:21, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
I know the criteria on including POVs (being notable and verfiable), but the problem is that the way it's presented in this case is inherently POV. There needs to be a section written in WP:NPOV addressing the issue on how people decide to write criticism, because this seems to be a common problem. Nathan J. Yoder 07:08, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
About the NPOV tag, I would like to know where is written the rule that says that removing a POV tag requires a consensus? Apparently, it is at the best only a folk rule in Wikipedia. -- Lumiere 17:04, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm working on the Neuro-linguistic Programming (NLP) page at the moment. At times, we are faced with quite a common view of what NLP is that doesn't seem to have any basis in what any NLP source (training/books) actually says. This means we're faced with a situation where we can genuinely say "Many people believe NLP to be XXXX", where XXXX is simply not mentioned. Now, how do we identify this kind of outside group without bias? If we say "NLP detractors" that really doesn't explain who they are (kind of like saying "Negative people have negative things to say"). "People who have heard of NLP but never done an NLP training or read a book on NLP believe..." might describe them, but also seems biased (and wordy). "People who misunderstand NLP"... well that group certainly wouldn't accept that label!, "The same people who criticise hypnosis criticise NLP" might be closer... but we are also making an association (this one happens to be a common one). How do we describe that kind of group fairly? Thanks GregA 23:16, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
There is a minority of Wikipedians who feel so strongly about this problem that they believe Wikipedia should adopt a "scientific point of view" rather than a "neutral point of view." However, it has not been established that there is really a need for such a policy, given that the scientists' view of pseudoscience can be clearly, fully, and fairly explained to believers of pseudoscience.
It's obvious what the need is. If you don't have a Scientific Point of View, misleading articles describing Astrology or conspiracy theories show up. The editors of these often use NPOV as a excuse for not including criticism and skeptical views. Also, articles like John Edward or Sylvia Browne have talk pages saying they can't just go out and say the truth: that they're frauds. Someone could come to Wikipedia and assume that astrology is widely accepted simply due to the biased nature of the article. Hell, the article on people who claim they don't need to eat or drink ( breatharianism) suggests this could be true when any school kid could point out how false it is. And, also, pseudoscientists aren't actually scientists, so they do not apply to the moronic 'minority point of view' rule. And that isn't a example of a 'no true Scotsman' fallacy as you there is a differance between actual scientists and pseudoscientists. -- RPGLand2000 23:28, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Thats true, and I agree. On the other hand.... there is a matching problem oddly enough too: FT2 17:38, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Your discussion is fascinating. I'd urge caution. I can think of a few noteworthy examples where the scientific community missed something significant for a while. One that comes to mind is the Victorian dismissal of indigenous herbal healers as witch doctors and superstition. Later on pharmacology discovers that some of those plants have medicinal value. Being right, though, does not make a non-scientist a scientist.
Nor does it mean that some claim advanced in the name of herbalism are right or even ethical. A whole industry of fringe medicine preys on desperate people with terminal conditions. It's easy to see the harm this causes when the subject is health. With other sciences - maybe it takes being part of the subculture to see their perspective. Most NASA scientists I've known will respond to a question about UFOs by suppressing a groan and leaving. Durova 00:19, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
The guideline states, "the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view". Apparently some editors are reading this as a way to justify writing the entire article from the majority's perspective. It should be known that the majority's view should not interfere with accurately depicting what the article's topic is really all about. For instance,
astrology's article accurately identifies what the astrologers believe, without the critics' POV distorting this. Some editors might view the current phrase as saying the purpose of the article is to show the majority's view on the subject. You see how this can be bothersome? Instead of an article about pseuodoscience, we would end up with an article abotu what the majority thinks of pseudoscience. I believe this would interfere with the reader's ability to understand the topic. Imagine someone looking to write an essay on a certain topic, the way things can potentially end up would make wikipedia a bad source of information. Another problem with it is that the majority's view on a subject may change over time, but the original concept may not. glocks out 00:10, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
What about non-scientific views that represent a majority point of view, such as religious beliefs?
Applejuicefool 16:24, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I added this section to WP:NPOV between "Pseudoscience" and "Religion":
This was reverted with a request to explain here, and a comment as to length.
1/ The length is possibly an issue. However excessive length is an indicator to summarize (or for others to do so) - it is not a signal that a subject is incorrect. If the original text is too long, that is my flaw as a copy writer. Please edit and correct.
2/ The subject matter above, I argue, is a critical aspect of neutrality. Science is above all a methodology, conservative in nature. Its practitioners, whilst they attempt to be neutral, are human. Sometimes they fail. Sometimes their knowledge, or ability to test, or approach, is lacking. In some cases, formal scientific opinion is the consensus standard for a subject, and hence the one that guides the article. But crucially, for certain articles, there may be doubt whether science is in fact concluding appropriately, or representing other aspects of the matter fully. Of Plato's "the Beautiful, the Good and the True", only the latter, and only some aspects of it at that, can be tested for neutrality using formal scientific methodology, a methodology that itself must develop by trial and error when new fields become the subject of investigation. In others, the results found by science are disputed, sometimes rightly and sometimes wrongly.
My concern is to not give a back-door to pseudoscience. But there is a certain kind of editor to whom "what science says" is the only test of truth, much like a devout religionist. My contention is, there are articles where it is important to recognise that science has its own inherent point of view, and its own bias too. It is not always, merely by virtue of being scientific, the only important viewpoint, even if it dismisses other viewpoints. So there needs to be in WP:NPOV a reminder that whilst what is labelled as "scientific view" is important, it is not always the gold standard and last word just because it is a view by a scientist.
Science is unusual because it's the one point of view where many people (who might see POV in a religion or philosophy) view science as being by definition neutral. It isn't. As a result, some subjects where science at present condemns or is ignorant, or the subject is new or difficult to test in the usual ways, the counter point of view may be and at times is stifled badly as a result.
Examples and further detail provided upon request.
(Yes I know it's long. I'm sorry. Brevity did not come to me on this. Please read and consider, rather than critique length)
FT2 17:38, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
I have recently created a wikipedia article titled ' wikipedia:POV selective fact suppression'. Read it, so that I don't have to take up much more space by copying it here (This page takes so long to load).
I recommend that it be mentioned in the main NPOV article, as it is a very common POV problem. --NPOVenforcer
It seems to me that some articles themselves, by definition, express a point of view, in which case a neutral point of view (NPOV), has a slightly different meaning. For example:
-- Iantresman 13:43, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia:POV fork is now a guideline.
The section POV selective fact suppression has just been added to the policy document. I submit that this has no consensus support. If there is no substantial objection that would show a consensus to make this part of official policy, I'll revert within a day or so. — Saxifrage | ☎ 09:23, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
In wikipedia, one of the most common forms of violating the strict wikipedia NPOV policy is to selectively remove specific facts from an article so as to give a false impression of the truth.
To illustrate how POV selective fact suppression works:
Suppose that there is belief A and belief B. Some evidence favors belief A and other evidence favors belief B. The NPOV policy is to include all relevant facts in an article. In POV selective fact suppression, evidence that supports one or the other beliefs is deleted by the opposition.
An other variant of this behavior is to delete the details of why one's own evidence favors one's own position, when those details reveal that the evidence is in fact very weak.
Yet an other variant of this behavior is to delete any mention altogether of specific beliefs or ideals that oppose one's own, when those opposing beliefs or ideals are highly credible, yet other opposing beliefs or ideals have little credibility and thus make one's own beliefs or ideals look good by comparison.
(copy of POV selective fact suppression from project page, -- Apyule 11:25, 8 November 2005 (UTC))
I've had some examples of this in some articles I've been editing. For example:
-- Iantresman 14:08, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
How about this for a wording:
Misrepresentation of sources // selective suppression of fact
Credible sources often consider many different views, and often different views are considered or evidenced by different credible sources. Because of this, even verified credible sources can be cited in a non-neutral way, to give an impression which does not represent the opinion of one source, or credible sources as a whole, in a field. A citation from one source can be balanced by also representing opposing citations, or by giving an overview that puts it into fair perspective. Examples include:
FT2 06:23, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I think that it's not bad, but IMO the original (and now improved) paragraph above is still better and the easiest to comprehend. What do you think is less than perfect about it? Harald88 20:03, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
I see your point, and I do agree with you that the paragraph has to be easily understandable by POV offenders. Nevertheless it was also meant to create awareness of manipulation by POV offenders to unaware bystanders, and for that purpose the first presentation was (although imperfect, I now notice) brilliant - I fully understood it immediately. It would be a pity if that got lost. On top of that, one point I tried to make clear to you but I don't know how to explain without wasting a lot of words that your text gives examples that are the inverse of the introducing sentences, which I find confusing. Anyway, "These are POV suppression methods. Don't do them.", is and was indeed the purpose of this paragraph. Note also that "Ignoring or deleting credible opposing views in order to make a view appear more mainstream or widely favored than in fact it is" shows lack of insight in the issue: views are often mainstream or widely favoured because alternative views are suppressed. For example when the president of Venezuela was kidnapped, the correct information was available on credible internet pages (and I thus knew the truth while BBC and CNN were spreading misinformation, long live internet!) but mainstream thinking was that he was kidnapped due to suppression of the correct information by the mass media. Here is my suggestion, trying to keep the "best of both" (and now that I start editing, I notice a lot of room for improvement and that you did not cover the same examples, and that the two subjects are not the same, misrepresentation of sources is only one kind of selective fact suppression):
selective fact suppression
In Wikipedia, one of the most common forms of violating the NPOV policy is to suppress specific facts that counter one's own opinion.
To illustrate how POV selective fact suppression works: Suppose that some reliable sources favor one opinion and other reliable sources disagree. The NPOV policy is to include all relevant facts in an article. We have a case of POV selective fact suppression if evidence that supports one opinion is deleted by the opposition.
Other examples of selective fact suppression:
* Explaining why evidence supports one's preferred view but minimizing or not indicating evidence that would tend to weaken it or bring it into question.
* Ignoring or deleting credible opposing views in order to make a view appear more accepted than in fact it is.
* Deleting all mention of a specific highly credible opinion that opposes one's own belief, yet allowing mention of other opposing opinions that have little credibility that thus make one's own belief look good by comparison.
* Editing as if one given view is "right" and therefore other views either have no substance, or nothing to defend themselves with. Even science is often only one point of view to discuss, although usually a significant one.
In summary: As different credible sources may have different views, even verified credible sources can be cited in a non-neutral way -- one could mislead the reader into thinking that consensus exists on a matter while this is not the case. Thus, if there is no consensus about a subject matter, a citation from one source should be balanced by also providing opposing citations, or by giving an overview that puts it into fair perspective.
BTW, I did not include the following examples for practical reasons:
-> Problem with this is that one can hardly blame any editor for not telling everything of relevance. Wikipedia is a group effort.
-> The problem here is that if it is debatable "what the author appears to intend", then there may be a NOR issue. Thus to include this subject plus its caveats inside the above would complicate matters and make the subject less straightforward.
Cheers, Harald88 19:39, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Problems I have with this passage:
— Saxifrage | ☎ 00:32, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Some interesting ideas coming up. My thoughts on the above:
I'll get looking at wording again. If you can let me know what qualities a "good wording" should have, I'll try to find one that fits those goals. Qualities between us I am aware of:
FT2 10:02, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
See my comments of yesterday here above Harald88 10:05, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Crossfirism - the tendency of articles to give the false appearance of NPOV by including a criticism section, but then proceeding to include a point->counter-point debunking of all the criticism in said section. Something really needs to be said about this practice on Wikipedia, because offering criticism than trying to debunk as its presented is not terribly POV. This seems to be fairly common. Another less common practice I've noticed is POV inclusionism. That is, people would rather keep inaccurate and very POV information in an article than have that information completely removed, even when they admit that it's blatantly POV. I'm not talking about when someone removes an entire paragraph because of a single bad sentence, I'm talking about selective removal of just POV sentences. Something about that has to do stop.
There's also a related tendency for POV pushers to assume an expiration date on NPOV tag notices. I've seen several people say things like "I don't like seeing that NPOV tag up there for so long, so I'll just remove it even though the situation hasn't been addressed." People do this acknowledging an unfixed POV issue. It should be emphasized that NPOV tags have no expiration date and remain indefinitely until the dispute is resolved.
Nathan J. Yoder 23:21, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
I know the criteria on including POVs (being notable and verfiable), but the problem is that the way it's presented in this case is inherently POV. There needs to be a section written in WP:NPOV addressing the issue on how people decide to write criticism, because this seems to be a common problem. Nathan J. Yoder 07:08, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
About the NPOV tag, I would like to know where is written the rule that says that removing a POV tag requires a consensus? Apparently, it is at the best only a folk rule in Wikipedia. -- Lumiere 17:04, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm working on the Neuro-linguistic Programming (NLP) page at the moment. At times, we are faced with quite a common view of what NLP is that doesn't seem to have any basis in what any NLP source (training/books) actually says. This means we're faced with a situation where we can genuinely say "Many people believe NLP to be XXXX", where XXXX is simply not mentioned. Now, how do we identify this kind of outside group without bias? If we say "NLP detractors" that really doesn't explain who they are (kind of like saying "Negative people have negative things to say"). "People who have heard of NLP but never done an NLP training or read a book on NLP believe..." might describe them, but also seems biased (and wordy). "People who misunderstand NLP"... well that group certainly wouldn't accept that label!, "The same people who criticise hypnosis criticise NLP" might be closer... but we are also making an association (this one happens to be a common one). How do we describe that kind of group fairly? Thanks GregA 23:16, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
There is a minority of Wikipedians who feel so strongly about this problem that they believe Wikipedia should adopt a "scientific point of view" rather than a "neutral point of view." However, it has not been established that there is really a need for such a policy, given that the scientists' view of pseudoscience can be clearly, fully, and fairly explained to believers of pseudoscience.
It's obvious what the need is. If you don't have a Scientific Point of View, misleading articles describing Astrology or conspiracy theories show up. The editors of these often use NPOV as a excuse for not including criticism and skeptical views. Also, articles like John Edward or Sylvia Browne have talk pages saying they can't just go out and say the truth: that they're frauds. Someone could come to Wikipedia and assume that astrology is widely accepted simply due to the biased nature of the article. Hell, the article on people who claim they don't need to eat or drink ( breatharianism) suggests this could be true when any school kid could point out how false it is. And, also, pseudoscientists aren't actually scientists, so they do not apply to the moronic 'minority point of view' rule. And that isn't a example of a 'no true Scotsman' fallacy as you there is a differance between actual scientists and pseudoscientists. -- RPGLand2000 23:28, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Thats true, and I agree. On the other hand.... there is a matching problem oddly enough too: FT2 17:38, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Your discussion is fascinating. I'd urge caution. I can think of a few noteworthy examples where the scientific community missed something significant for a while. One that comes to mind is the Victorian dismissal of indigenous herbal healers as witch doctors and superstition. Later on pharmacology discovers that some of those plants have medicinal value. Being right, though, does not make a non-scientist a scientist.
Nor does it mean that some claim advanced in the name of herbalism are right or even ethical. A whole industry of fringe medicine preys on desperate people with terminal conditions. It's easy to see the harm this causes when the subject is health. With other sciences - maybe it takes being part of the subculture to see their perspective. Most NASA scientists I've known will respond to a question about UFOs by suppressing a groan and leaving. Durova 00:19, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
The guideline states, "the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view". Apparently some editors are reading this as a way to justify writing the entire article from the majority's perspective. It should be known that the majority's view should not interfere with accurately depicting what the article's topic is really all about. For instance,
astrology's article accurately identifies what the astrologers believe, without the critics' POV distorting this. Some editors might view the current phrase as saying the purpose of the article is to show the majority's view on the subject. You see how this can be bothersome? Instead of an article about pseuodoscience, we would end up with an article abotu what the majority thinks of pseudoscience. I believe this would interfere with the reader's ability to understand the topic. Imagine someone looking to write an essay on a certain topic, the way things can potentially end up would make wikipedia a bad source of information. Another problem with it is that the majority's view on a subject may change over time, but the original concept may not. glocks out 00:10, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
What about non-scientific views that represent a majority point of view, such as religious beliefs?
Applejuicefool 16:24, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I added this section to WP:NPOV between "Pseudoscience" and "Religion":
This was reverted with a request to explain here, and a comment as to length.
1/ The length is possibly an issue. However excessive length is an indicator to summarize (or for others to do so) - it is not a signal that a subject is incorrect. If the original text is too long, that is my flaw as a copy writer. Please edit and correct.
2/ The subject matter above, I argue, is a critical aspect of neutrality. Science is above all a methodology, conservative in nature. Its practitioners, whilst they attempt to be neutral, are human. Sometimes they fail. Sometimes their knowledge, or ability to test, or approach, is lacking. In some cases, formal scientific opinion is the consensus standard for a subject, and hence the one that guides the article. But crucially, for certain articles, there may be doubt whether science is in fact concluding appropriately, or representing other aspects of the matter fully. Of Plato's "the Beautiful, the Good and the True", only the latter, and only some aspects of it at that, can be tested for neutrality using formal scientific methodology, a methodology that itself must develop by trial and error when new fields become the subject of investigation. In others, the results found by science are disputed, sometimes rightly and sometimes wrongly.
My concern is to not give a back-door to pseudoscience. But there is a certain kind of editor to whom "what science says" is the only test of truth, much like a devout religionist. My contention is, there are articles where it is important to recognise that science has its own inherent point of view, and its own bias too. It is not always, merely by virtue of being scientific, the only important viewpoint, even if it dismisses other viewpoints. So there needs to be in WP:NPOV a reminder that whilst what is labelled as "scientific view" is important, it is not always the gold standard and last word just because it is a view by a scientist.
Science is unusual because it's the one point of view where many people (who might see POV in a religion or philosophy) view science as being by definition neutral. It isn't. As a result, some subjects where science at present condemns or is ignorant, or the subject is new or difficult to test in the usual ways, the counter point of view may be and at times is stifled badly as a result.
Examples and further detail provided upon request.
(Yes I know it's long. I'm sorry. Brevity did not come to me on this. Please read and consider, rather than critique length)
FT2 17:38, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
I have recently created a wikipedia article titled ' wikipedia:POV selective fact suppression'. Read it, so that I don't have to take up much more space by copying it here (This page takes so long to load).
I recommend that it be mentioned in the main NPOV article, as it is a very common POV problem. --NPOVenforcer
It seems to me that some articles themselves, by definition, express a point of view, in which case a neutral point of view (NPOV), has a slightly different meaning. For example:
-- Iantresman 13:43, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia:POV fork is now a guideline.
The section POV selective fact suppression has just been added to the policy document. I submit that this has no consensus support. If there is no substantial objection that would show a consensus to make this part of official policy, I'll revert within a day or so. — Saxifrage | ☎ 09:23, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
In wikipedia, one of the most common forms of violating the strict wikipedia NPOV policy is to selectively remove specific facts from an article so as to give a false impression of the truth.
To illustrate how POV selective fact suppression works:
Suppose that there is belief A and belief B. Some evidence favors belief A and other evidence favors belief B. The NPOV policy is to include all relevant facts in an article. In POV selective fact suppression, evidence that supports one or the other beliefs is deleted by the opposition.
An other variant of this behavior is to delete the details of why one's own evidence favors one's own position, when those details reveal that the evidence is in fact very weak.
Yet an other variant of this behavior is to delete any mention altogether of specific beliefs or ideals that oppose one's own, when those opposing beliefs or ideals are highly credible, yet other opposing beliefs or ideals have little credibility and thus make one's own beliefs or ideals look good by comparison.
(copy of POV selective fact suppression from project page, -- Apyule 11:25, 8 November 2005 (UTC))
I've had some examples of this in some articles I've been editing. For example:
-- Iantresman 14:08, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
How about this for a wording:
Misrepresentation of sources // selective suppression of fact
Credible sources often consider many different views, and often different views are considered or evidenced by different credible sources. Because of this, even verified credible sources can be cited in a non-neutral way, to give an impression which does not represent the opinion of one source, or credible sources as a whole, in a field. A citation from one source can be balanced by also representing opposing citations, or by giving an overview that puts it into fair perspective. Examples include:
FT2 06:23, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I think that it's not bad, but IMO the original (and now improved) paragraph above is still better and the easiest to comprehend. What do you think is less than perfect about it? Harald88 20:03, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
I see your point, and I do agree with you that the paragraph has to be easily understandable by POV offenders. Nevertheless it was also meant to create awareness of manipulation by POV offenders to unaware bystanders, and for that purpose the first presentation was (although imperfect, I now notice) brilliant - I fully understood it immediately. It would be a pity if that got lost. On top of that, one point I tried to make clear to you but I don't know how to explain without wasting a lot of words that your text gives examples that are the inverse of the introducing sentences, which I find confusing. Anyway, "These are POV suppression methods. Don't do them.", is and was indeed the purpose of this paragraph. Note also that "Ignoring or deleting credible opposing views in order to make a view appear more mainstream or widely favored than in fact it is" shows lack of insight in the issue: views are often mainstream or widely favoured because alternative views are suppressed. For example when the president of Venezuela was kidnapped, the correct information was available on credible internet pages (and I thus knew the truth while BBC and CNN were spreading misinformation, long live internet!) but mainstream thinking was that he was kidnapped due to suppression of the correct information by the mass media. Here is my suggestion, trying to keep the "best of both" (and now that I start editing, I notice a lot of room for improvement and that you did not cover the same examples, and that the two subjects are not the same, misrepresentation of sources is only one kind of selective fact suppression):
selective fact suppression
In Wikipedia, one of the most common forms of violating the NPOV policy is to suppress specific facts that counter one's own opinion.
To illustrate how POV selective fact suppression works: Suppose that some reliable sources favor one opinion and other reliable sources disagree. The NPOV policy is to include all relevant facts in an article. We have a case of POV selective fact suppression if evidence that supports one opinion is deleted by the opposition.
Other examples of selective fact suppression:
* Explaining why evidence supports one's preferred view but minimizing or not indicating evidence that would tend to weaken it or bring it into question.
* Ignoring or deleting credible opposing views in order to make a view appear more accepted than in fact it is.
* Deleting all mention of a specific highly credible opinion that opposes one's own belief, yet allowing mention of other opposing opinions that have little credibility that thus make one's own belief look good by comparison.
* Editing as if one given view is "right" and therefore other views either have no substance, or nothing to defend themselves with. Even science is often only one point of view to discuss, although usually a significant one.
In summary: As different credible sources may have different views, even verified credible sources can be cited in a non-neutral way -- one could mislead the reader into thinking that consensus exists on a matter while this is not the case. Thus, if there is no consensus about a subject matter, a citation from one source should be balanced by also providing opposing citations, or by giving an overview that puts it into fair perspective.
BTW, I did not include the following examples for practical reasons:
-> Problem with this is that one can hardly blame any editor for not telling everything of relevance. Wikipedia is a group effort.
-> The problem here is that if it is debatable "what the author appears to intend", then there may be a NOR issue. Thus to include this subject plus its caveats inside the above would complicate matters and make the subject less straightforward.
Cheers, Harald88 19:39, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Problems I have with this passage:
— Saxifrage | ☎ 00:32, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Some interesting ideas coming up. My thoughts on the above:
I'll get looking at wording again. If you can let me know what qualities a "good wording" should have, I'll try to find one that fits those goals. Qualities between us I am aware of:
FT2 10:02, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
See my comments of yesterday here above Harald88 10:05, 13 November 2005 (UTC)