This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
A widespread problem in Wikipedia is Northern hemisphere bias. This manifests itself in places like referring to the Vernal equinox to refer specifically to the equinox that occurs in March, assuming that Spring begins in March, and other assumptions that are only true for the northern hemisphere.
People also live south of the Equator, and the seasons there are at different times of the year.
Where possible, recast the text to remove all seasonal ambiguity. Adding a sentence near the top of the text stating that the seasons refer to the Northern hemisphere should only be considered as a short-term fix. Such a sentence can easily be overlooked by someone who is casually browsing the text, and anyone who is quoting the Wikipedia for any purpose is likely to miss quoting this text.-- B.d.mills 06:27, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I added the "An exception" sentence to your list, in the style of other similar Wikipedia policies about regionality. The solstice one I'm curious about. I've only ever heard the solstices referenced seasonally. Is there any precedent for other naming schemes, such as "December Solstice"? Do people from the southern hemisphere most commonly call the solstice in December "Summer Solstice", or do they use another term? — Cortonin | Talk 08:07, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have a question regarding the policy that states "We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by only a small minority of people deserved as much attention as a majority view. That may be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. If we are to represent the dispute fairly, we should present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties." What if the number of people who hold a position is in dispute? Q0 19:45, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This page really has grown into a bit of a monster. Points are often duplicated, or not presented clearly. The page is very long. I would be very suprised if any new users take the time to read and learn such a piece. We should cut it down and clean it up. Dan100 13:20, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)
On several instances ( here, there, etc.), I have come across troubling cases where some article content, or some references, contained blatant errors on objective facts. Especially, it contain false assertions on the textual content of the text of laws that were available from authoritative sources on the World Wide Web; in one instance, one "reference" discussed an inexistant article of a law (to be fair, the article existed in the first draft of the law – but the "reference" discussed it as current).
In all cases, what was troubling was that some other contributors had preferred "information" obtained from non-authoritative sources to easily obtainable first-hand information. In some cases, the non-authoritative sources were probably the media; in other cases, publications defending a certain point of view on the question.
The neutral point of view policies of Wikipedia compel us to attribute opinions to those who hold them. However, in the cases that I delineated above, there was absolutely no room for opinion. Whether an official text, duly referenced on official sites, contains or not a certain paragraph or phrase is not a matter of opinion; it is an objective fact that anybody with an Internet connection can check. There is absolutely no room for appreciation or discussion.
In cases where such objective determination is possible, I think that it should be policy that preference should be given to primary sources.
Note, however, that I do not extend this qualification of objectiveness to the interpretations that can be made of legal texts. These, often, need the help of people with legal background; and, also, determining the possible future applications of a law is generally a matter of prospective and supposition. David.Monniaux 20:13, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Everyone should try to be as objective as possible, respect other's sensibilities without sacrificing content. That would make neutral & agreeable POV.
It is stated in the NPOV policy that "If we are to represent the dispute fairly, we should present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties." Although this text was given in a section that explains the policy regarding representing views in proportion to the population that holds a view, the fact that "experts on the subject" and "concerned parties" was used leads me to believe that both opinions from experts in a field as well as "concerned parties" (who are not necessarily "experts") are to be included in Wikipedia. Am I correct? Q0 18:15, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Isn't a neutral point of view an oxymoron.
It is a point of view in it's self. --Greyfox
Let me put it this way this way.
Wikipedia is the greatest example of man’s struggle to decide who decides what is and isn’t fact or not fact. Basically define what things are as opposed to aren’t. Also who has the authority to decide what is right or wrong. In other who has the right to say it is neutral the founder, writer, viewer, majority or outside power (I.E. God or scientific process). All of these could be wrong. Who has the authority to say what the neutral point of view is?
Hence it is not really possible to have a neutral point of view ever unless something is declared a neutral authority on the matter. Which is nearly impossible because all sides of an argument could say the authority is against them.
To dumb this back down, who has the authority to say what the truth is Absolute or Relative? Or to say what the NPOV is.-- Greyfox 20:28, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
After thought maybe it is more of a logic fallacy a kind of married bachelor?
Lincolnshire Poacher 23:23, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Always cite your sources, and make sure your sources are reputable, and you won't go far wrong.
Just becuase they are not credible or reputalbe doesn't mean they are wrong.
Just means no one believes them.
Example in point 2000 years ago any one that thought the earth was round had no proof. In fact the evidence to most people and wise men of the day was to the contrary. It was flat to them.
Lincolnshire Poacher 23:26, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
See: Wikipedia:Criticism. Thanks. Hyacinth 05:23, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There is currently a proposal at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Chinese)/NPOV/Taiwan vs. ROC to amend this policy so that Wikipedia officially takes a pro-Taipei and anti-Beijing approach to naming conventions. Anyone interested in discussing this change to the NPOV policy should go there, jguk 21:04, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
My ID is Uvo, when I found Wikipedia:Neutral point of view is redirected from UVO, I felt too surprise and happy! 玉米^ō^麦兜 08:06, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
what about beliefs? why not just say if that's what they believe they are, just say that's what they are? according to them it's the truth, so why not state it as such, for each case. also, why is science given such leeway, when science is a point of view in itself?
Um, science is most certainly not a point if view. Science is merely a method for how one can answer questions that are asked about the physical world in which we live. How else would one answer such questions? By waiting for a revelation from some deity or god? Also, can you give us a specific example of science being given leeway in a Wikipedia article, over some equally reliable method of determining facts about the physical world in which we live? Finally, be careful about using the word "believe". adherents of many religions, and adherents of far left-wing and far right-wing ideologies have set "beliefs". Scientists ask questions, and see what the results of experiments are. RK 18:35, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)
sceince is used all to often to call other paths of thinking ridiculous. it is definatly a POV, for people sayt "from a scientiic point of view" or " sceontifically speaking" etc. if not, then they shouldnt say it, but it seems so ot me.
Gabrielsimon 20:25, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
NPOV is being invoked in Wikipedia for the most intolerant reasons.
This should gives birth to a reflexion on the abuses commonly met. For a start, I believe one should state clearly that the contrary of NPOV, is never POV -- a contribution should never be criticized on the argument that it displays a point of view, only that it infringes the overall neutrality.
An argument which would not display any point of view would be absolutist -- pretend that it is objective and universal, without consideration for the opinions of other people but its author. It would thus only be implicitly a point of view itself.
Neutrality is thus not achieved by stating pseudo-universal truths, but by offering a fair balance between the various points of view in presence, making them explicit. Modern science and philosophy do not offer official truth anymore, but theories and paradigms, defeasible and consistent, as far as possible.
Relativism used to be an insult -- it is clear now that its opposite is absolutism, which is far more dangerous. Relativism doesn't mean that all opinions all equally valid, but only that they are so a-priori -- that one should be allowed to defend them, and thus first to express them.
The philosophy on Enlightment (which gaves birth to the Encyclopedia) was indeed absolutist. It did state that some truths were universal. It led to totalitarism, and my own opinion is that it is for this reason, obsolete. --Marc Girod
TDC, can you explain what you're talking about when you say the cartoon is left-of-center? If it weren't for the name "John Kerry" in there, I'm not convinced you could say the cartoon is in any political direction. You could just as easily put a handful of Republican names in there, for example John McCain, and get pretty much the same joke. Is there some evidence I don't know about that John Kerry ate babies? (Keep in mind, that any illustration of the point is going to have to make some sort of crazy claim as an example.) Perhaps you could more clearly specify what you think is problematic about it so it can be discussed. — Cortonin | Talk 19:03, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There's a NPOV, but hell, a lot of people are being MISEDUCATED by what's written here. There are just lots of biases and false stuff
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
A widespread problem in Wikipedia is Northern hemisphere bias. This manifests itself in places like referring to the Vernal equinox to refer specifically to the equinox that occurs in March, assuming that Spring begins in March, and other assumptions that are only true for the northern hemisphere.
People also live south of the Equator, and the seasons there are at different times of the year.
Where possible, recast the text to remove all seasonal ambiguity. Adding a sentence near the top of the text stating that the seasons refer to the Northern hemisphere should only be considered as a short-term fix. Such a sentence can easily be overlooked by someone who is casually browsing the text, and anyone who is quoting the Wikipedia for any purpose is likely to miss quoting this text.-- B.d.mills 06:27, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I added the "An exception" sentence to your list, in the style of other similar Wikipedia policies about regionality. The solstice one I'm curious about. I've only ever heard the solstices referenced seasonally. Is there any precedent for other naming schemes, such as "December Solstice"? Do people from the southern hemisphere most commonly call the solstice in December "Summer Solstice", or do they use another term? — Cortonin | Talk 08:07, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have a question regarding the policy that states "We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by only a small minority of people deserved as much attention as a majority view. That may be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. If we are to represent the dispute fairly, we should present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties." What if the number of people who hold a position is in dispute? Q0 19:45, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This page really has grown into a bit of a monster. Points are often duplicated, or not presented clearly. The page is very long. I would be very suprised if any new users take the time to read and learn such a piece. We should cut it down and clean it up. Dan100 13:20, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)
On several instances ( here, there, etc.), I have come across troubling cases where some article content, or some references, contained blatant errors on objective facts. Especially, it contain false assertions on the textual content of the text of laws that were available from authoritative sources on the World Wide Web; in one instance, one "reference" discussed an inexistant article of a law (to be fair, the article existed in the first draft of the law – but the "reference" discussed it as current).
In all cases, what was troubling was that some other contributors had preferred "information" obtained from non-authoritative sources to easily obtainable first-hand information. In some cases, the non-authoritative sources were probably the media; in other cases, publications defending a certain point of view on the question.
The neutral point of view policies of Wikipedia compel us to attribute opinions to those who hold them. However, in the cases that I delineated above, there was absolutely no room for opinion. Whether an official text, duly referenced on official sites, contains or not a certain paragraph or phrase is not a matter of opinion; it is an objective fact that anybody with an Internet connection can check. There is absolutely no room for appreciation or discussion.
In cases where such objective determination is possible, I think that it should be policy that preference should be given to primary sources.
Note, however, that I do not extend this qualification of objectiveness to the interpretations that can be made of legal texts. These, often, need the help of people with legal background; and, also, determining the possible future applications of a law is generally a matter of prospective and supposition. David.Monniaux 20:13, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Everyone should try to be as objective as possible, respect other's sensibilities without sacrificing content. That would make neutral & agreeable POV.
It is stated in the NPOV policy that "If we are to represent the dispute fairly, we should present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties." Although this text was given in a section that explains the policy regarding representing views in proportion to the population that holds a view, the fact that "experts on the subject" and "concerned parties" was used leads me to believe that both opinions from experts in a field as well as "concerned parties" (who are not necessarily "experts") are to be included in Wikipedia. Am I correct? Q0 18:15, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Isn't a neutral point of view an oxymoron.
It is a point of view in it's self. --Greyfox
Let me put it this way this way.
Wikipedia is the greatest example of man’s struggle to decide who decides what is and isn’t fact or not fact. Basically define what things are as opposed to aren’t. Also who has the authority to decide what is right or wrong. In other who has the right to say it is neutral the founder, writer, viewer, majority or outside power (I.E. God or scientific process). All of these could be wrong. Who has the authority to say what the neutral point of view is?
Hence it is not really possible to have a neutral point of view ever unless something is declared a neutral authority on the matter. Which is nearly impossible because all sides of an argument could say the authority is against them.
To dumb this back down, who has the authority to say what the truth is Absolute or Relative? Or to say what the NPOV is.-- Greyfox 20:28, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
After thought maybe it is more of a logic fallacy a kind of married bachelor?
Lincolnshire Poacher 23:23, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Always cite your sources, and make sure your sources are reputable, and you won't go far wrong.
Just becuase they are not credible or reputalbe doesn't mean they are wrong.
Just means no one believes them.
Example in point 2000 years ago any one that thought the earth was round had no proof. In fact the evidence to most people and wise men of the day was to the contrary. It was flat to them.
Lincolnshire Poacher 23:26, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
See: Wikipedia:Criticism. Thanks. Hyacinth 05:23, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There is currently a proposal at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Chinese)/NPOV/Taiwan vs. ROC to amend this policy so that Wikipedia officially takes a pro-Taipei and anti-Beijing approach to naming conventions. Anyone interested in discussing this change to the NPOV policy should go there, jguk 21:04, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
My ID is Uvo, when I found Wikipedia:Neutral point of view is redirected from UVO, I felt too surprise and happy! 玉米^ō^麦兜 08:06, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
what about beliefs? why not just say if that's what they believe they are, just say that's what they are? according to them it's the truth, so why not state it as such, for each case. also, why is science given such leeway, when science is a point of view in itself?
Um, science is most certainly not a point if view. Science is merely a method for how one can answer questions that are asked about the physical world in which we live. How else would one answer such questions? By waiting for a revelation from some deity or god? Also, can you give us a specific example of science being given leeway in a Wikipedia article, over some equally reliable method of determining facts about the physical world in which we live? Finally, be careful about using the word "believe". adherents of many religions, and adherents of far left-wing and far right-wing ideologies have set "beliefs". Scientists ask questions, and see what the results of experiments are. RK 18:35, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)
sceince is used all to often to call other paths of thinking ridiculous. it is definatly a POV, for people sayt "from a scientiic point of view" or " sceontifically speaking" etc. if not, then they shouldnt say it, but it seems so ot me.
Gabrielsimon 20:25, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
NPOV is being invoked in Wikipedia for the most intolerant reasons.
This should gives birth to a reflexion on the abuses commonly met. For a start, I believe one should state clearly that the contrary of NPOV, is never POV -- a contribution should never be criticized on the argument that it displays a point of view, only that it infringes the overall neutrality.
An argument which would not display any point of view would be absolutist -- pretend that it is objective and universal, without consideration for the opinions of other people but its author. It would thus only be implicitly a point of view itself.
Neutrality is thus not achieved by stating pseudo-universal truths, but by offering a fair balance between the various points of view in presence, making them explicit. Modern science and philosophy do not offer official truth anymore, but theories and paradigms, defeasible and consistent, as far as possible.
Relativism used to be an insult -- it is clear now that its opposite is absolutism, which is far more dangerous. Relativism doesn't mean that all opinions all equally valid, but only that they are so a-priori -- that one should be allowed to defend them, and thus first to express them.
The philosophy on Enlightment (which gaves birth to the Encyclopedia) was indeed absolutist. It did state that some truths were universal. It led to totalitarism, and my own opinion is that it is for this reason, obsolete. --Marc Girod
TDC, can you explain what you're talking about when you say the cartoon is left-of-center? If it weren't for the name "John Kerry" in there, I'm not convinced you could say the cartoon is in any political direction. You could just as easily put a handful of Republican names in there, for example John McCain, and get pretty much the same joke. Is there some evidence I don't know about that John Kerry ate babies? (Keep in mind, that any illustration of the point is going to have to make some sort of crazy claim as an example.) Perhaps you could more clearly specify what you think is problematic about it so it can be discussed. — Cortonin | Talk 19:03, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There's a NPOV, but hell, a lot of people are being MISEDUCATED by what's written here. There are just lots of biases and false stuff