This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
I am surprised the issue is not discussed earlier. Some nations go singular, some plural. (Some nations have names without this problem: Roma and Sinti, Sami.) Below is a discussion from Talk:Tatars. IMO the issue must be resolved here once and for all. Mikkalai 21:12, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Why singular title, not plural? -- Shallot 11:59, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I see no reason why this should be any different from the standard policy - not only is Tatar also usable as an adjective, but presumably one member of the Tatars is Tatar? (I know nothing about the topic, so feel free to tell me that this is not the case.) Thus the standard reasons apply for using the singular in the title - ease of linking, consistency across the project, etc.
People seem to constantly question this policy, but I see almost no circumstances under which we need make an exception. It would seem to me that bacteria were something almost always discussed in the plural, but you can have one bacterium, and so that is where our article should be. If you're not convinced, follow the same logic through for ants, or chickens: sure, we could have a mixture, but where would you draw the line? So, if it's possible to have one Tatar - i.e. the s is a genuine plural, not a linguistic oddity like physics, et al - then that should be the name of the article. If you come across any other examples that break this rule, you have my support in moving them. - IMSoP 21:54, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Could Hyacinth or someone else explain to me the rationale for these conventions, perhaps giving some examples? It seems to be concerned with general terminology, not article naming in particular (which is what the page is about, I think?). — LarryGilbert 21:47, 2004 Apr 5 (UTC)
I would put forward and advocate that the use of the "same-sex" and "different-sex" be changed to "same-gender" and "opposite-gender". Not only does it remove any connotation of "different" being at times seen in a context of "normal" and "different" but also more cohesive to many of the issues surrounding gender and gender identity. For example, what about issues and articles which discuss people who are inter-sexed (i.e. people with indetemrinante gentalia or gender)? The term gender is more expansive and inclusive and takes into account the issues surrounding gender and how they relate to chromosomal sex and the social construction of gender. On a more grammatical and pedantic note, it is also less ungainly than saying for instance "same-sex sex" or "different-sex sexuality". Lestatdelc 23:19, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)
Replacing same-sex with same-gender seems extremely questionable to me, particularly when it comes to sex (the action). Because same-sex usually refers to, excuse the word, same plumbing, same with different-sex. Same or different plumbing leads to certain technical things, nothing more and nothing less. Same and different gender on the other hand leads to a number of questions, including those of identity, identifying the relation (no matter how long- or short-lived it may be) and some more. In Human sexuality the two things are mixed up, leading to rather confusing information. (But then, the article is very confusing anyway.) Two people who have the same gender can have same-sex sex or different-sex sex, depending on the particular plumbing of both. Although most of the time it will be same-sex sex, which makes the replacement with same-gender even more pointless.
Also, when talking about other stuff, it makes also sense to describe exactly what you are talking about. The marriage question for transgendered people is seen as a question of "same sex" for some, especially its opponents, and "different gender" for others. So replacing "same sex" with "same gender" would in this case too, produce a false description. I'd say instead of some broad half-baked PC replacement, which does work even worse than the expression it replaces (which does not work too well, either), same-sex and different-sex should be replaced where necessary and with whatever term actually makes sense in a given context. -- AlexR 20:34, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
"Short guide" is not so simple, because especially "same and different sex" is used in various meanings:
Since the problems with "same and different sex" only apply to transgendered and many intersex people, though, which are a minority, it would probably make sense to stick to "same and different sex", especially when talking about medical or legal matters and only add that matters can be more complicated when transgender and intersex people come into play at all.
Same and different gender makes sense to use when talking about identities or gender roles, but are tricky when refering to medical or legal matters. In relationships between people (not just with significant others, but between all people), it is gender that counts.
The only exceptions are either particularly obnoxiously impolite people who know the other person to be transgendered or intersex and who insist on refering to them as people of their birth gender; or transgendered people who are very bady adapted to their new gender role, although that is in almost all cases a temporary problem.
And of course there are usually "gender problems" for transgendered and some intersex people before they transition or even know the name for the problem, but that is of course the core problem of transgendered people.
I don't think it makes sense to refer to these exceptions very often.
Another problem of course is to be certain what exactly is same sex or same gender when refering to many transgendered and intersex people (different is usually not a problem). Even if we stick to peoples self-identification and the appearance of their bodies, which by no means all people do, many transgender and intersex people do see neither their bodies nor their gender (identitiy and/or role) as clearly male or female, making it rather difficult to find people who are "same sex" and/or "same gender". As I already said in Talk:Homosexuality, different-sex, different-gender gay (or lesbian) relationships are just as possible between transgendered or intersex people and cisgendered people as different-sex, same-gender gay or lesbian relationships or same-sex, same-gender gay or lesbian ones. And that is just self-definition descriptions.
So a "short guide" might be a bit of a problem. The only solution is to decide in each case what exactly one is refering to at the moment and use the proper words. Proper words are probably more than just same/different sex/gender, though. -- AlexR 23:16, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
Lists of pieces has a format borrowed from Lists of solo piano pieces, which lists pages by composer, style or period, and nationality or culture. Now a list of pages itself and every alphabetical page clearly violates the "Do not use an article name that suggests a hierarchy of articles" convention, example: List of solo piano pieces by composer: G. Do we add lists such as this as an exception to that convention or make the "lists" one list instead of many? Hyacinth 08:54, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I would like to recommend an addition to the rules for personal names. I suggest we follow the standard practice in the United States, as set forth in the Associated Press Stylebook, and omit any commas preceding suffixes such as "Jr." and "Sr." in personal names as well as suffixes such as "Inc.," "Ltd.," and so forth in company names. acsenray
Since the start of WikiDoc (continued in Wikiproject ( Clinical medicine) there have been discussions whether articles on medical conditions should be named by their scientific title ( myocardial infarction) or their common names ( heart attack). Arguments in favour of common names:
But there are also arguments in favour of redirecting these terms to articles titled by their scientific terminology, such as is common practice in Chemistry and Biology articles:
I've previously raised this on
Wikipedia:naming conventions (common names), eliciting only a response from people whom I'd informed. Hopefully it will find more of an audience over here.
JFW |
T@lk 12:02, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
How and by whom are the "Conventions under consideration" ( Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Conventions under consideration) under consideration? When and how are they adopted or abandonded? Hyacinth 21:39, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
How should the naming of pages deal with suffixes. For instance, neofeudalistic, neofeudalist, neofeudalism, and neofeudal, could all have articles. Obviously some suffix is required, at the least -al. This has important implications for both the grammar, content, and neutrality of articles. For instance, Neofeudalism has to describe one disputed (in wiki and in the external world) "movement"/"trend"/"goal"/"belief", while neofeudal could describe a variety of otherwise unconnected things. Hyacinth 01:11, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
I just stated Wikipedia:WikiProject_Airports and I had wondered about naming conventions. This is the proposed style: [Proper Name of Airport] [Place Name] [Type of Airport] Airport, thus the airport for Toronto would be Lester B. Pearson Toronto International Airport. The other possibility is [Place Name] [Proper Name] [Type of Airport] Airport. What do you think? Burgundavia 03:08, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I can't believe I couldn't find this in Wikipedia:Naming Conventions... On the talk page for Talk:O. Henry, HamYoyo suggested that "the page ought to be filed under "Henry, O." I wanted to point to the naming convention that says that in Wikipedia article titles, names are given in normal order rather than inverted order (surname; comma; first name; middle-name(s)-or-initial(s)). But I couldn't find it! Where is it? Dpbsmith 18:55, 31 May 2004 (UTC)
We always give names in the "natural" order, hence " George Washington", " Mao Zedong", " José Ortega y Gasset". -- Jmabel 20:31, 31 May 2004 (UTC)
If you were to go to List of lemmas, you will find that they are all listed as "XXX's lemma", with a small L. However, many redirect to pages with a capitalized L. I know that Urysohn's lemma was actually moved to Urysohn's Lemma. This all confuses me, and I posted a comment on the talk page there.
What is the convention for titles of theorems, paradoxes, lemmas, and the like?
- RealGrouchy 14:52, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Seems I recall seeing some discussion of this somewhere, but i can't see to find it now. It strikes me as odd that places that are pretty uniformly referred to just about everywhere as "St. Someplace" have articles under the title "Saint Someplace". older≠ wiser 19:24, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Here is a list of possible company or business names. Please comment on which naming convention is most appropriate to use for the main article. In each example, the full legal name is #1, a shortened form (no punctuation) is #2, an even shorter version (less likely to change during normal business) is #3. Please voice any other suggestions. -- Netoholic 03:26, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
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Here is an example of one such company. Please give me suggestions on what the main article should be named. -- Netoholic 15:54, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Marvel Comics currently has the content, but the legal company name here in the US is Marvel Enterprises, Inc. according to their own website. In casual speech, Marvel or Marvel Comics is used frequently.
Choice #3. This is essentially a most-common-name issue, and we already have a policy on Wikipedia of using most-common-name, which is the name with the "Inc." or other such accessory suffix. — Lowellian ( talk)[[]] 11:59, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)
The current text of this article section does not reflect real-world usage. It is certainly a well-established practice to follow general English title capitalization rules in the music industry, but it's largely ignored, and has been for quite some time, by music publishers, artists, and indexers (e.g., libraries). The library case is relatively simple — they just lowercase everything except the first letter and proper nouns (e.g., "A long way down from Stephanie"). One might ignore that special situation. But pick up any 100 CDs, and you'll be hard-pressed to find more than a handful that actually follow English capitalization rules. The vast majority of modern popular music albums (in the most generic sense) follow one of three practices:
The remaining albums and/or songs (perhaps 10%-15%) are quite inconsistent in what they do and don't capitalize. My favorite example is The Beatles' "Yellow Submarine", whose songs include "All together Now", "It's all too much", and "March of The Meanies" — three different examples, none of which completely follow "standard" capitalization rules. (I go into more detail about this at Talk:List of songs whose title includes personal names#Capitalization). And I haven't even covered classical music, which tends to favor a unique combination of "standard" English rules and all-lowercasing for some terms.
I would like to propose following one consistent practice that (A) is in much more common use than the "standard" rules, (B) is easy to understand and follow, and (C) doesn't detract from the text in which it is included. To this end, I suggest we promote #3 above — capitalize everything in a title — as the only practical combination of these factors. I invite questions and comments. -- Jeff Q 23:01, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)
What is Wikipedia convention for redirecting pages for the following scenarios :
I couldn't find any pointers in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). Jay 09:47, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I think that the "most common" rule is entirely inappropriate here. We don't have to comb the universe for evidence of what to call people when they have just told us. Articles should be titled with the persons name. Hyacinth 21:10, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I don't know if this issue has been addressed before, but what is the consensus on alphabetizing names which begin with "von"? Should a name like Baron von Munchausen be listed under "V" or "M"? I've seen examples of both ways. And I assume the same convention would cover similar names beginning with van, du, della, da, de, etc. MK 05:35, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Style manuals take pages and pages to cover this, and there's been no real "issues" about it here so far that would lead to concensus. But for what it's worth, the Chicago Style Manual points out that considerations of the individual's personal preference (if known), traditional usage and national usage all enter into consideration, and cross referencing is advisable. In general, names with particles are alphabetized according to the name without the particle:
Basically, Merriam-Webster's Biographical Dictionary is a good guide.
Compound names are usually alphabetized according to the first element
There are special rules for foreign names: name with Abu, Abd, ibn, Mc, or Fitz are alphabetized as written Arabic name prefixed by al- or el- are alphabetized under the following name
- Nunh-huh 05:59, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
For French names containing "de," do not take the "de" into account EXCEPT when the surname alone is one syllable long (e.g. "de Gaulle, Charles). For names containing "von," "van," etc., collate without taking the word into account EXCEPT when the word is capitalised by family usage (e.g. Von Braun, Werhner). -- Emsworth 13:36, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
First, apologies if this is dealt with elsewhere - I have looked ...
I was lookingup genie - to find out whether 'genie jokes' got a mention, and found a story of a feral child, plus a link to jinni. This page was what I sought, indeed it admitted that genie is the English word.
I feel that jinni should be genie - that's what 99.99% of English-language users would seek - I further feel it is more entitled to that title than the feral child. So two questions:
Thanks! Heenan73 11:27, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Since there is no convention, I've moved this from Wikipedia:Naming conventions. It doesn't make sense to add it when this convention is not agreed. Angela . 21:03, Aug 2, 2004 (UTC)
Since the use of diacritical marks (where technically possible) seems to be common for article titles, but the policy is not clearly stated, a proposed policy is being discussed at Talk:Agustin Stahl. -- Michael Snow 23:49, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The main page was temporarily protected due to this dispute. For the main discussion of the reasons, please see Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television).
Netoholic. People are still voting. The issue is not resolved. Please stop reverting. Mintguy (T) 19:35, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
"I don't break the three revert rule. Mintguy" - I was really hoping you'd say that. Now, while I don't know the full story of your issues with User:Kenneth Alan, the fact remains you violated the Three Revert Rule on those occasions also.
There are similar violations of WP:3RR on George Villiers, 1st Duke of Buckingham, and maybe further in your history. And where you don't always break the rule, you do push it extremely frequently. I may recommend that this go to WP:RFC, since I don't believe you act as a proper editor, and may not still deserve to be a sysop. -- Netoholic 02:25, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Well I'm staggered. Have you actually looked at those edits I reverted in those cases? User:Kenneth Alan is a well-known troll who has been causing problems for months. Take a look at Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Kenneth_Alan. After Kenneth Alan continued to add nonsense and continued to revert I was forced to block his account for 24 hours and I then brought the matter to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration. This is THE exception to the rule. You may note BTW that Kenneth alan also exceeded the 3 revert rule. Do you expect me to leave an article with abject nonsense in it? Mintguy (T) 02:49, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I don't like the way you've turned this into a personal matter. Mintguy (T) 03:02, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I tried to move this discussion to User talk:Mintguy, but he reverted it. Since I doubt he'll honor anything I do, if someone else could confirm that his talk page is the appropriate place for this, please respond. Thanks. -- Netoholic 14:51, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Moved to Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (places). -- Beland 02:33, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Should Naming conventions link directly to Wikipedia:Naming conventions? I think the idea of naming conventions might make a good article in and of itself, (although admittedly, I'm not ready to write such an article myself). AdmN 17:56, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
There seems to be no convention on naming PLCs. Some keep plc or PLC (e.g. Tesco PLC, BAA PLC) and some don't ( BAE SYSTEMS, Cable & Wireless, Safeway, Reuters). Personally I think they are not necessary. ed g2s • talk 22:01, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
(Back to the margin.) In general, the 'common name' policy seems to be favoured by the few who have participated in the debate. I have one more argument that I would like people to respond to before I conceed. The 'common name' tends to be a trademark, and this is something that changes over time, whereas the company name stays static. For instance, the UK bank that is now called Abbey (bank) is still registered as Abbey National plc. On the other hand, Barclays Bank isn't Barclays Bank any more ... it is just Barclays, and is registered as Barclays plc. In the more general sense, if a company uses a number of trademarks, do you pick the most famous one to put the company details under? It strikes me that this could turn into a fairly major project, with a useful item being an infobox giving logo; Trademarks; company registration name; FTSE shortform; head office location; subsidiary companies; and maybe other stuff as well. Should that sort of stuff be talked about before embarking on some sort of standardization exercise? [[User:Noisy| Noisy | Talk]] 21:15, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Discussion moved to Talk:Public limited company. Go to it, people.
It's rather interesting that one of the main themes of this discussion is the ongoing attempts to thwart any possible resolution by rushing blindly ahead into various ad hoc solutions. Whether it is out of ignorance or just a lack of knowledge of Wikipedia dispute resolution might be an open question, but apparently there is a need to review the basics.
To get a grasp of Wikipedia dispute resolution those interested in participating could start with taking a look at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. It is perhaps necessary to understand that Wikipedia is not a democracy and that is why building a consensus is always the preferred choice. The first entry in this discussion is less than two days old and possibilities of reaching a consensus on this are only scratched upon, and far from exhausted. However, after that the next step would be to invite third parties to the discussion to help to further it towards a consensus. This should be allowed to the necessary time, without anyone trying to derail the process by forcibly implementing their own pet agendas.
Only if all this should fail a survey would become necessary, and in such a case the procedures in Wikipedia:Survey guidelines should be followed. Among the basic provisions there has to be a consensus on the nature of the survey, like what questions to be asked and when the deadline should be, before any voting even can take place. It is recommended that the process of reaching a consensus about the nature of the survey as such, be allowed to take about a week to determine. When a survey is called it is also to be announced so that it will be possible to participate, etc.
Because the voting called upon above, at Talk:Public limited company, satisfies none of the basic requirements for Wikipedia dispute resolution, any result produced by would be moot and has no hope of acquiring necessary validity. That unfortunate process should be called off, preferably by the one who initiated it and discussion be brought back here as soon as possible. It is important that the fundamental rules of the resolution process actually is respected and cared for by all involved parties. -- Mic 20:40, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Susvolans 14:47, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Oddly, the debate - albeit a structured debate involving a poll, was going quite well until Mic posted the above. After which the debate was choked dead. So, my question: who killed the debate? Me or Mic? As for Susvolans and his "gratuitously UK-centric" comment. The debate was over the naming of PLCs, which are Public Limited Companies, which are things listed on the London Stock Exchange. A little knowledge, as they say, is a dangerous thing.
What is the result of Mic's intervention? 1) the end of debate 2) it leaves all of the PLC articles renamed, against the wishes of at least half of the people who involved themselves in the debate before it was summarily curtailed by Mic. A good result? YMMV. -- Tagishsimon
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
I am surprised the issue is not discussed earlier. Some nations go singular, some plural. (Some nations have names without this problem: Roma and Sinti, Sami.) Below is a discussion from Talk:Tatars. IMO the issue must be resolved here once and for all. Mikkalai 21:12, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Why singular title, not plural? -- Shallot 11:59, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I see no reason why this should be any different from the standard policy - not only is Tatar also usable as an adjective, but presumably one member of the Tatars is Tatar? (I know nothing about the topic, so feel free to tell me that this is not the case.) Thus the standard reasons apply for using the singular in the title - ease of linking, consistency across the project, etc.
People seem to constantly question this policy, but I see almost no circumstances under which we need make an exception. It would seem to me that bacteria were something almost always discussed in the plural, but you can have one bacterium, and so that is where our article should be. If you're not convinced, follow the same logic through for ants, or chickens: sure, we could have a mixture, but where would you draw the line? So, if it's possible to have one Tatar - i.e. the s is a genuine plural, not a linguistic oddity like physics, et al - then that should be the name of the article. If you come across any other examples that break this rule, you have my support in moving them. - IMSoP 21:54, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Could Hyacinth or someone else explain to me the rationale for these conventions, perhaps giving some examples? It seems to be concerned with general terminology, not article naming in particular (which is what the page is about, I think?). — LarryGilbert 21:47, 2004 Apr 5 (UTC)
I would put forward and advocate that the use of the "same-sex" and "different-sex" be changed to "same-gender" and "opposite-gender". Not only does it remove any connotation of "different" being at times seen in a context of "normal" and "different" but also more cohesive to many of the issues surrounding gender and gender identity. For example, what about issues and articles which discuss people who are inter-sexed (i.e. people with indetemrinante gentalia or gender)? The term gender is more expansive and inclusive and takes into account the issues surrounding gender and how they relate to chromosomal sex and the social construction of gender. On a more grammatical and pedantic note, it is also less ungainly than saying for instance "same-sex sex" or "different-sex sexuality". Lestatdelc 23:19, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)
Replacing same-sex with same-gender seems extremely questionable to me, particularly when it comes to sex (the action). Because same-sex usually refers to, excuse the word, same plumbing, same with different-sex. Same or different plumbing leads to certain technical things, nothing more and nothing less. Same and different gender on the other hand leads to a number of questions, including those of identity, identifying the relation (no matter how long- or short-lived it may be) and some more. In Human sexuality the two things are mixed up, leading to rather confusing information. (But then, the article is very confusing anyway.) Two people who have the same gender can have same-sex sex or different-sex sex, depending on the particular plumbing of both. Although most of the time it will be same-sex sex, which makes the replacement with same-gender even more pointless.
Also, when talking about other stuff, it makes also sense to describe exactly what you are talking about. The marriage question for transgendered people is seen as a question of "same sex" for some, especially its opponents, and "different gender" for others. So replacing "same sex" with "same gender" would in this case too, produce a false description. I'd say instead of some broad half-baked PC replacement, which does work even worse than the expression it replaces (which does not work too well, either), same-sex and different-sex should be replaced where necessary and with whatever term actually makes sense in a given context. -- AlexR 20:34, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
"Short guide" is not so simple, because especially "same and different sex" is used in various meanings:
Since the problems with "same and different sex" only apply to transgendered and many intersex people, though, which are a minority, it would probably make sense to stick to "same and different sex", especially when talking about medical or legal matters and only add that matters can be more complicated when transgender and intersex people come into play at all.
Same and different gender makes sense to use when talking about identities or gender roles, but are tricky when refering to medical or legal matters. In relationships between people (not just with significant others, but between all people), it is gender that counts.
The only exceptions are either particularly obnoxiously impolite people who know the other person to be transgendered or intersex and who insist on refering to them as people of their birth gender; or transgendered people who are very bady adapted to their new gender role, although that is in almost all cases a temporary problem.
And of course there are usually "gender problems" for transgendered and some intersex people before they transition or even know the name for the problem, but that is of course the core problem of transgendered people.
I don't think it makes sense to refer to these exceptions very often.
Another problem of course is to be certain what exactly is same sex or same gender when refering to many transgendered and intersex people (different is usually not a problem). Even if we stick to peoples self-identification and the appearance of their bodies, which by no means all people do, many transgender and intersex people do see neither their bodies nor their gender (identitiy and/or role) as clearly male or female, making it rather difficult to find people who are "same sex" and/or "same gender". As I already said in Talk:Homosexuality, different-sex, different-gender gay (or lesbian) relationships are just as possible between transgendered or intersex people and cisgendered people as different-sex, same-gender gay or lesbian relationships or same-sex, same-gender gay or lesbian ones. And that is just self-definition descriptions.
So a "short guide" might be a bit of a problem. The only solution is to decide in each case what exactly one is refering to at the moment and use the proper words. Proper words are probably more than just same/different sex/gender, though. -- AlexR 23:16, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
Lists of pieces has a format borrowed from Lists of solo piano pieces, which lists pages by composer, style or period, and nationality or culture. Now a list of pages itself and every alphabetical page clearly violates the "Do not use an article name that suggests a hierarchy of articles" convention, example: List of solo piano pieces by composer: G. Do we add lists such as this as an exception to that convention or make the "lists" one list instead of many? Hyacinth 08:54, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I would like to recommend an addition to the rules for personal names. I suggest we follow the standard practice in the United States, as set forth in the Associated Press Stylebook, and omit any commas preceding suffixes such as "Jr." and "Sr." in personal names as well as suffixes such as "Inc.," "Ltd.," and so forth in company names. acsenray
Since the start of WikiDoc (continued in Wikiproject ( Clinical medicine) there have been discussions whether articles on medical conditions should be named by their scientific title ( myocardial infarction) or their common names ( heart attack). Arguments in favour of common names:
But there are also arguments in favour of redirecting these terms to articles titled by their scientific terminology, such as is common practice in Chemistry and Biology articles:
I've previously raised this on
Wikipedia:naming conventions (common names), eliciting only a response from people whom I'd informed. Hopefully it will find more of an audience over here.
JFW |
T@lk 12:02, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
How and by whom are the "Conventions under consideration" ( Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Conventions under consideration) under consideration? When and how are they adopted or abandonded? Hyacinth 21:39, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
How should the naming of pages deal with suffixes. For instance, neofeudalistic, neofeudalist, neofeudalism, and neofeudal, could all have articles. Obviously some suffix is required, at the least -al. This has important implications for both the grammar, content, and neutrality of articles. For instance, Neofeudalism has to describe one disputed (in wiki and in the external world) "movement"/"trend"/"goal"/"belief", while neofeudal could describe a variety of otherwise unconnected things. Hyacinth 01:11, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
I just stated Wikipedia:WikiProject_Airports and I had wondered about naming conventions. This is the proposed style: [Proper Name of Airport] [Place Name] [Type of Airport] Airport, thus the airport for Toronto would be Lester B. Pearson Toronto International Airport. The other possibility is [Place Name] [Proper Name] [Type of Airport] Airport. What do you think? Burgundavia 03:08, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I can't believe I couldn't find this in Wikipedia:Naming Conventions... On the talk page for Talk:O. Henry, HamYoyo suggested that "the page ought to be filed under "Henry, O." I wanted to point to the naming convention that says that in Wikipedia article titles, names are given in normal order rather than inverted order (surname; comma; first name; middle-name(s)-or-initial(s)). But I couldn't find it! Where is it? Dpbsmith 18:55, 31 May 2004 (UTC)
We always give names in the "natural" order, hence " George Washington", " Mao Zedong", " José Ortega y Gasset". -- Jmabel 20:31, 31 May 2004 (UTC)
If you were to go to List of lemmas, you will find that they are all listed as "XXX's lemma", with a small L. However, many redirect to pages with a capitalized L. I know that Urysohn's lemma was actually moved to Urysohn's Lemma. This all confuses me, and I posted a comment on the talk page there.
What is the convention for titles of theorems, paradoxes, lemmas, and the like?
- RealGrouchy 14:52, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Seems I recall seeing some discussion of this somewhere, but i can't see to find it now. It strikes me as odd that places that are pretty uniformly referred to just about everywhere as "St. Someplace" have articles under the title "Saint Someplace". older≠ wiser 19:24, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Here is a list of possible company or business names. Please comment on which naming convention is most appropriate to use for the main article. In each example, the full legal name is #1, a shortened form (no punctuation) is #2, an even shorter version (less likely to change during normal business) is #3. Please voice any other suggestions. -- Netoholic 03:26, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
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Here is an example of one such company. Please give me suggestions on what the main article should be named. -- Netoholic 15:54, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Marvel Comics currently has the content, but the legal company name here in the US is Marvel Enterprises, Inc. according to their own website. In casual speech, Marvel or Marvel Comics is used frequently.
Choice #3. This is essentially a most-common-name issue, and we already have a policy on Wikipedia of using most-common-name, which is the name with the "Inc." or other such accessory suffix. — Lowellian ( talk)[[]] 11:59, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)
The current text of this article section does not reflect real-world usage. It is certainly a well-established practice to follow general English title capitalization rules in the music industry, but it's largely ignored, and has been for quite some time, by music publishers, artists, and indexers (e.g., libraries). The library case is relatively simple — they just lowercase everything except the first letter and proper nouns (e.g., "A long way down from Stephanie"). One might ignore that special situation. But pick up any 100 CDs, and you'll be hard-pressed to find more than a handful that actually follow English capitalization rules. The vast majority of modern popular music albums (in the most generic sense) follow one of three practices:
The remaining albums and/or songs (perhaps 10%-15%) are quite inconsistent in what they do and don't capitalize. My favorite example is The Beatles' "Yellow Submarine", whose songs include "All together Now", "It's all too much", and "March of The Meanies" — three different examples, none of which completely follow "standard" capitalization rules. (I go into more detail about this at Talk:List of songs whose title includes personal names#Capitalization). And I haven't even covered classical music, which tends to favor a unique combination of "standard" English rules and all-lowercasing for some terms.
I would like to propose following one consistent practice that (A) is in much more common use than the "standard" rules, (B) is easy to understand and follow, and (C) doesn't detract from the text in which it is included. To this end, I suggest we promote #3 above — capitalize everything in a title — as the only practical combination of these factors. I invite questions and comments. -- Jeff Q 23:01, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)
What is Wikipedia convention for redirecting pages for the following scenarios :
I couldn't find any pointers in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). Jay 09:47, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I think that the "most common" rule is entirely inappropriate here. We don't have to comb the universe for evidence of what to call people when they have just told us. Articles should be titled with the persons name. Hyacinth 21:10, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I don't know if this issue has been addressed before, but what is the consensus on alphabetizing names which begin with "von"? Should a name like Baron von Munchausen be listed under "V" or "M"? I've seen examples of both ways. And I assume the same convention would cover similar names beginning with van, du, della, da, de, etc. MK 05:35, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Style manuals take pages and pages to cover this, and there's been no real "issues" about it here so far that would lead to concensus. But for what it's worth, the Chicago Style Manual points out that considerations of the individual's personal preference (if known), traditional usage and national usage all enter into consideration, and cross referencing is advisable. In general, names with particles are alphabetized according to the name without the particle:
Basically, Merriam-Webster's Biographical Dictionary is a good guide.
Compound names are usually alphabetized according to the first element
There are special rules for foreign names: name with Abu, Abd, ibn, Mc, or Fitz are alphabetized as written Arabic name prefixed by al- or el- are alphabetized under the following name
- Nunh-huh 05:59, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
For French names containing "de," do not take the "de" into account EXCEPT when the surname alone is one syllable long (e.g. "de Gaulle, Charles). For names containing "von," "van," etc., collate without taking the word into account EXCEPT when the word is capitalised by family usage (e.g. Von Braun, Werhner). -- Emsworth 13:36, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
First, apologies if this is dealt with elsewhere - I have looked ...
I was lookingup genie - to find out whether 'genie jokes' got a mention, and found a story of a feral child, plus a link to jinni. This page was what I sought, indeed it admitted that genie is the English word.
I feel that jinni should be genie - that's what 99.99% of English-language users would seek - I further feel it is more entitled to that title than the feral child. So two questions:
Thanks! Heenan73 11:27, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Since there is no convention, I've moved this from Wikipedia:Naming conventions. It doesn't make sense to add it when this convention is not agreed. Angela . 21:03, Aug 2, 2004 (UTC)
Since the use of diacritical marks (where technically possible) seems to be common for article titles, but the policy is not clearly stated, a proposed policy is being discussed at Talk:Agustin Stahl. -- Michael Snow 23:49, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The main page was temporarily protected due to this dispute. For the main discussion of the reasons, please see Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television).
Netoholic. People are still voting. The issue is not resolved. Please stop reverting. Mintguy (T) 19:35, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
"I don't break the three revert rule. Mintguy" - I was really hoping you'd say that. Now, while I don't know the full story of your issues with User:Kenneth Alan, the fact remains you violated the Three Revert Rule on those occasions also.
There are similar violations of WP:3RR on George Villiers, 1st Duke of Buckingham, and maybe further in your history. And where you don't always break the rule, you do push it extremely frequently. I may recommend that this go to WP:RFC, since I don't believe you act as a proper editor, and may not still deserve to be a sysop. -- Netoholic 02:25, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Well I'm staggered. Have you actually looked at those edits I reverted in those cases? User:Kenneth Alan is a well-known troll who has been causing problems for months. Take a look at Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Kenneth_Alan. After Kenneth Alan continued to add nonsense and continued to revert I was forced to block his account for 24 hours and I then brought the matter to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration. This is THE exception to the rule. You may note BTW that Kenneth alan also exceeded the 3 revert rule. Do you expect me to leave an article with abject nonsense in it? Mintguy (T) 02:49, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I don't like the way you've turned this into a personal matter. Mintguy (T) 03:02, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I tried to move this discussion to User talk:Mintguy, but he reverted it. Since I doubt he'll honor anything I do, if someone else could confirm that his talk page is the appropriate place for this, please respond. Thanks. -- Netoholic 14:51, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Moved to Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (places). -- Beland 02:33, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Should Naming conventions link directly to Wikipedia:Naming conventions? I think the idea of naming conventions might make a good article in and of itself, (although admittedly, I'm not ready to write such an article myself). AdmN 17:56, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
There seems to be no convention on naming PLCs. Some keep plc or PLC (e.g. Tesco PLC, BAA PLC) and some don't ( BAE SYSTEMS, Cable & Wireless, Safeway, Reuters). Personally I think they are not necessary. ed g2s • talk 22:01, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
(Back to the margin.) In general, the 'common name' policy seems to be favoured by the few who have participated in the debate. I have one more argument that I would like people to respond to before I conceed. The 'common name' tends to be a trademark, and this is something that changes over time, whereas the company name stays static. For instance, the UK bank that is now called Abbey (bank) is still registered as Abbey National plc. On the other hand, Barclays Bank isn't Barclays Bank any more ... it is just Barclays, and is registered as Barclays plc. In the more general sense, if a company uses a number of trademarks, do you pick the most famous one to put the company details under? It strikes me that this could turn into a fairly major project, with a useful item being an infobox giving logo; Trademarks; company registration name; FTSE shortform; head office location; subsidiary companies; and maybe other stuff as well. Should that sort of stuff be talked about before embarking on some sort of standardization exercise? [[User:Noisy| Noisy | Talk]] 21:15, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Discussion moved to Talk:Public limited company. Go to it, people.
It's rather interesting that one of the main themes of this discussion is the ongoing attempts to thwart any possible resolution by rushing blindly ahead into various ad hoc solutions. Whether it is out of ignorance or just a lack of knowledge of Wikipedia dispute resolution might be an open question, but apparently there is a need to review the basics.
To get a grasp of Wikipedia dispute resolution those interested in participating could start with taking a look at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. It is perhaps necessary to understand that Wikipedia is not a democracy and that is why building a consensus is always the preferred choice. The first entry in this discussion is less than two days old and possibilities of reaching a consensus on this are only scratched upon, and far from exhausted. However, after that the next step would be to invite third parties to the discussion to help to further it towards a consensus. This should be allowed to the necessary time, without anyone trying to derail the process by forcibly implementing their own pet agendas.
Only if all this should fail a survey would become necessary, and in such a case the procedures in Wikipedia:Survey guidelines should be followed. Among the basic provisions there has to be a consensus on the nature of the survey, like what questions to be asked and when the deadline should be, before any voting even can take place. It is recommended that the process of reaching a consensus about the nature of the survey as such, be allowed to take about a week to determine. When a survey is called it is also to be announced so that it will be possible to participate, etc.
Because the voting called upon above, at Talk:Public limited company, satisfies none of the basic requirements for Wikipedia dispute resolution, any result produced by would be moot and has no hope of acquiring necessary validity. That unfortunate process should be called off, preferably by the one who initiated it and discussion be brought back here as soon as possible. It is important that the fundamental rules of the resolution process actually is respected and cared for by all involved parties. -- Mic 20:40, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Susvolans 14:47, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Oddly, the debate - albeit a structured debate involving a poll, was going quite well until Mic posted the above. After which the debate was choked dead. So, my question: who killed the debate? Me or Mic? As for Susvolans and his "gratuitously UK-centric" comment. The debate was over the naming of PLCs, which are Public Limited Companies, which are things listed on the London Stock Exchange. A little knowledge, as they say, is a dangerous thing.
What is the result of Mic's intervention? 1) the end of debate 2) it leaves all of the PLC articles renamed, against the wishes of at least half of the people who involved themselves in the debate before it was summarily curtailed by Mic. A good result? YMMV. -- Tagishsimon