This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Which English dictionary respelling system is being proposed in favour of, or in addition to, IPA? There are fourteen different systems documented at Pronunciation respelling for English. Are any of these usable for MSIE/Windows without a font template like template:IPA, and without any HTML code? Below are my results from a quick test—more investigation would be in order:
A quick look at
that page with MSIE on a vanilla Win XP system shows that the AHD, MWCD, NOAD, RHD, DPL, A, and COD systems display some broken characters even with class="IPA"
applied to the table. Removing the class and previewing in the browser shows that only the WBO, NBC, MWO, Cham, and AB systems appear to work without the class applied. The AHD, MWCD, NOAD, RHD, MECD, and MWO systems use HTML code in the table.
Summary ("X" passes, "-" fails)
System IPA AHD MWCD NOAD RHD WBO MECD DPL DPN NBC MWO A COD Cham AB Okay in MSIE - - - - - X - - - X X - - X X Okay with font X - - - - X X - X X X - - X X No HTML req’d X - - - - X - X X X - X X X X
Most of the respelling systems give worse results in MSIE/Win than IPA (although there may be workarounds). The DPN system has the same technical requirements as IPA, and MWO works without a font specification but requires typing HTML code. Only the following systems have the advantage over IPA and the rest, because they seem to work in MSIE without requiring a font specification (like template:IPA), and without typing HTML code:
Are there any online references for these four respelling systems? — Michael Z. 2006-06-30 17:06 Z
ARPABET, used by The CMU Pronouncing Dictionary, is described here. Nohat 17:39, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
For use only for English words I like the idea proposed above of using IPA in principle, but converting it to use only latin letters. Whenever the IPA symbol is a latin letter, use it. When not, use a close relative. Here is a possible way of doing it, based on the Help:IPA for English article. For the consonants it's not difficult. For the vowels (only 5 in the latin alphabet), some diacritics are used. The colon (like "o:" or dash on top "ō"?) can be used for the long vowels, and implies as well their articulation variant. The ě is used for shwa and ǔ for the sound in "run".
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− Woodstone 19:13, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
We used to use an established system for this purpose called SAMPA. Since English Wikipedia gained the capability to display UTF characters, SAMPA has been completely abandoned. I don't think anyone wants to reintroduce a non-standard replacement. — Michael Z. 2006-06-30 22:14 Z
Might someone know whether this can be realized (server side .php, user side JavaScript and possibly css, I guess):
Behind a word that could use help for its pronunciation, we would only see a single small symbol, its colour would indicate the first available option :
The cümbüş x• • • is a Turkish instrument. | – each time you bring the cursor on the gray symbol (half a second), you hear the word (sound file – in this demo not functional); – click on the symbol and the colour of the symbol would indicate the next available option : |
The cümbüş x• • • is a Turkish instrument. | – hold the cursor on the dark blue symbol and read the IPA representation for the word (best keep the pointer moving just under the symbol); – click on the symbol and the colour of the symbol would indicate the next available option : |
The cümbüş x• • • is a Turkish instrument. | – hold the cursor on the clear blue symbol and read the sound-out representation for the word (best keep the pointer moving just under the symbol); – click on the symbol and the colour of the symbol would indicate the initial option is ready again. |
Wikipedia's 'user preferences' might even allow to change this default order according to the personal preferences of the receiver (thus most often one would not even have to click once).
If one (or two) of the three is not available and thus has to be skipped, the next (user preferenced) available presentation is indicated with its matching colour. Note: each of the 3 dots would automatically be very light gray when its option is 'available', reddish if 'unavailable'; their order remains the above shown default order just as the colours stick with the presentation options, regardless user preferences, thus the appearance has the same meaning for everyone. This prevents needlessly pointing or clicking.
SomeHuman 2006-06-30 18:24 / 2006-07-01 11:20 (UTC)
Where do I go to request someone put the IPA pronunciation style on an article (specifically, Gallipolis, Ohio)? youngamerican ( ahoy-hoy) 11:54, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Regardless of whether you think IPA is the greatest thing since sliced bread or a terrible disaster for WP, it's clear that it's highly controversial among WP editors. The MOS ought to reflect that. WP is not King of the Hill, where the people who get up first have the right to push everyone else down. Nareek 01:49, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
It is horrifying that IPA is used as the pronunciation guide on Wikipedia articles, and more horrifying that it is encoded into this manual of style. It is safe to say that, statistically speaking, nobody understands it and nobody uses it. Claims that "it's more accurate" or "it's more international" or "we should lead the way" are hopelessly ivorytowerian. We should use simple soundalike guides. Tempshill 17:32, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Which English dictionary respelling system is being proposed in favour of, or in addition to, IPA? There are fourteen different systems documented at Pronunciation respelling for English. Are any of these usable for MSIE/Windows without a font template like template:IPA, and without any HTML code? Below are my results from a quick test—more investigation would be in order:
A quick look at
that page with MSIE on a vanilla Win XP system shows that the AHD, MWCD, NOAD, RHD, DPL, A, and COD systems display some broken characters even with class="IPA"
applied to the table. Removing the class and previewing in the browser shows that only the WBO, NBC, MWO, Cham, and AB systems appear to work without the class applied. The AHD, MWCD, NOAD, RHD, MECD, and MWO systems use HTML code in the table.
Summary ("X" passes, "-" fails)
System IPA AHD MWCD NOAD RHD WBO MECD DPL DPN NBC MWO A COD Cham AB Okay in MSIE - - - - - X - - - X X - - X X Okay with font X - - - - X X - X X X - - X X No HTML req’d X - - - - X - X X X - X X X X
Most of the respelling systems give worse results in MSIE/Win than IPA (although there may be workarounds). The DPN system has the same technical requirements as IPA, and MWO works without a font specification but requires typing HTML code. Only the following systems have the advantage over IPA and the rest, because they seem to work in MSIE without requiring a font specification (like template:IPA), and without typing HTML code:
Are there any online references for these four respelling systems? — Michael Z. 2006-06-30 17:06 Z
ARPABET, used by The CMU Pronouncing Dictionary, is described here. Nohat 17:39, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
For use only for English words I like the idea proposed above of using IPA in principle, but converting it to use only latin letters. Whenever the IPA symbol is a latin letter, use it. When not, use a close relative. Here is a possible way of doing it, based on the Help:IPA for English article. For the consonants it's not difficult. For the vowels (only 5 in the latin alphabet), some diacritics are used. The colon (like "o:" or dash on top "ō"?) can be used for the long vowels, and implies as well their articulation variant. The ě is used for shwa and ǔ for the sound in "run".
|
|
− Woodstone 19:13, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
We used to use an established system for this purpose called SAMPA. Since English Wikipedia gained the capability to display UTF characters, SAMPA has been completely abandoned. I don't think anyone wants to reintroduce a non-standard replacement. — Michael Z. 2006-06-30 22:14 Z
Might someone know whether this can be realized (server side .php, user side JavaScript and possibly css, I guess):
Behind a word that could use help for its pronunciation, we would only see a single small symbol, its colour would indicate the first available option :
The cümbüş x• • • is a Turkish instrument. | – each time you bring the cursor on the gray symbol (half a second), you hear the word (sound file – in this demo not functional); – click on the symbol and the colour of the symbol would indicate the next available option : |
The cümbüş x• • • is a Turkish instrument. | – hold the cursor on the dark blue symbol and read the IPA representation for the word (best keep the pointer moving just under the symbol); – click on the symbol and the colour of the symbol would indicate the next available option : |
The cümbüş x• • • is a Turkish instrument. | – hold the cursor on the clear blue symbol and read the sound-out representation for the word (best keep the pointer moving just under the symbol); – click on the symbol and the colour of the symbol would indicate the initial option is ready again. |
Wikipedia's 'user preferences' might even allow to change this default order according to the personal preferences of the receiver (thus most often one would not even have to click once).
If one (or two) of the three is not available and thus has to be skipped, the next (user preferenced) available presentation is indicated with its matching colour. Note: each of the 3 dots would automatically be very light gray when its option is 'available', reddish if 'unavailable'; their order remains the above shown default order just as the colours stick with the presentation options, regardless user preferences, thus the appearance has the same meaning for everyone. This prevents needlessly pointing or clicking.
SomeHuman 2006-06-30 18:24 / 2006-07-01 11:20 (UTC)
Where do I go to request someone put the IPA pronunciation style on an article (specifically, Gallipolis, Ohio)? youngamerican ( ahoy-hoy) 11:54, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Regardless of whether you think IPA is the greatest thing since sliced bread or a terrible disaster for WP, it's clear that it's highly controversial among WP editors. The MOS ought to reflect that. WP is not King of the Hill, where the people who get up first have the right to push everyone else down. Nareek 01:49, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
It is horrifying that IPA is used as the pronunciation guide on Wikipedia articles, and more horrifying that it is encoded into this manual of style. It is safe to say that, statistically speaking, nobody understands it and nobody uses it. Claims that "it's more accurate" or "it's more international" or "we should lead the way" are hopelessly ivorytowerian. We should use simple soundalike guides. Tempshill 17:32, 16 August 2006 (UTC)