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There is currently some disagreement over how articles on Hawaiian royals should be named. Perhaps we should develop specific conventions on how to title such articles.
For example, a user recently suggested that Victoria Kaiulani be renamed to either Princess Victoria Kaiulani, Victoria Kaiulani, Princess of Hawaii, or Princess Victoria Kaiulani of Hawaii. I have no objection to any of the three names at this present moment (except maybe that the "of Hawaii" part is redundant, as Hawaiian names are unique to Hawaii unlike European names), as long as there is a set standard and that all articles about Hawaiian royals follow the same conventions.
Further reference
Any input? Mahalo nui loa, 青い(Aoi) 04:12, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Concluded from the earlier discussions, the consensus now exists that Hawaiian royalty does not need "of Hawaii", basically the first name of the person suffices. This seems a good convention. I agree to it. 217.140.193.123 09:20, 10 July 2005 (UTC) Moreover, titles are unnecessary - even in European naming conventions, kings and suchlike do not have their royal titles in the heading of the article (and this despite there being much royalty nuts and protocol-minded people in Europe). My opinion is to keep such titles away from Hawaiian headings too, if not absolutely necessary for disambiguation purposes. 217.140.193.123 14:44, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Umm, how would you base the desire to have "Cleghorn" there? When dealing with royalty, we tend to avoid surnames, as royalty traditionally often did not have such and most usually did not use one (even if some royal had such). 217.140.193.123 21:38, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
I must ask whether "Victoria" is a part of her widely known name??? Or, is it just some addition from birth registers or from too-religious minded archivists who want to remember all christian names... If it is not well known, it should probably be dropped. (After all, Kalakaua, Lunalilo etc are without such. 217.140.193.123 21:38, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Actually, I wish for simplicity, and also for uphelding the name with which the object is best known. When those are determined, the consistency should be built upon such considerations. 217.140.193.123 21:38, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Please kindly all visit Wikipedia:Requested moves, where Liliuokalani and Lunalilo have now been triggered towards move, as initiated by a certain Gryffindor. 217.140.193.123 17:31, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to reopen discussion of the use of the 'okina in Hawai'ian language words and in, crucially, words derived from the Hawai'ian language, like...the word "Hawai'ian". I don't understand some English speakers' antipathy to this sound...in English, we pronounce it before every single word that supposedly begins with a vowel, like "it" and "every"; these words actually don't begin with a vowel, they begin with the exact same glottal stop sound that's used in the Hawai'ian language. In English, we even use the glottal stop within morphemes when we say something like "uh oh". Why do we instinctively use this sound in our own language, but balk at using it in words derived from another language? Sure it's phonemic in the Hawai'ian language but not in English; however, we still do say it all the time.
According to this Wikipedia style guide, the adjective "Hawai'ian" should not have a 'okina in it because it has an English suffixed attached. But the English suffix is attached to a Hawai'ian word. Even the Wikipedia style manual tolerates the use of the 'okina in the word "Hawai'i", and indeed the use of the 'okina in the root noun Hawai'i is advocated by the University of Hawai'i's Manual of Style. [1] Is it not illogically incongruous to use the 'okina in the root noun, but delete it in adjective form, especially when we have the exact same sound in the English language, and the use of the symbol is being advocated by the relevant state's leading institution of higher education? Does it not look silly to allow "Hawai'i" in a text, but then soon thereafter require the use only of "Hawaiian"? Allowing immediately obvious inconsistencies should not be a desirable outcome from a manual of style.
Even the University of Hawai'i's Manual of Style, though, uses "Hawaiian" and not "Hawai'ian". However, other parts of the academic community use "Hawai'ian" even if the subject is not connected with indigenous Hawai'ian culture or language. There's a "Hawai'ian Volcanic Eruption", [2] [3] "Hawai'ian waters", [4] and "Hawai'ian" beach sands [5]. On the other hand, there is the "Hawaiian Journal of Law and Politics", [6] and the "Hawaiian Journal of History" [7]. There's a CV of a scholar who calls this the "Hawai'ian Journal of History", though. [8] There are plenty of non-academic sites that use the word "Hawai'ian". [9] [10] One Hawai'ian science site apologizes for not consistently using the 'okina when it should be used. [11]
The rule that a foreign-language word loses its foreign-looking characteristics when an English grammatical suffix is attached, but can keep those foreign-looking characteristics when used unmodified in English, is new to me. I'm wondering: Are those who advocate for such a rule able to provide examples of other situations in which this rule manifests itself? Why is it necessary that the English adjectival suffix "-an" requires the 'okina to disappear from a root word, like "Hawai'i", to which it's attached? Let's expand this unusual rule to another situation: that of the Coast Tsimshian language lects. One specific lect is called "Sm'álgyax" - This word has both a phonemic glottal stop represented by the same sort of symbol as that used for the Hawai'ian language, and it has an accent mark on a vowel. So, when writing in English about this tribe and their language, which should we write?
the Sm'álgyax / Sm'álgyaxian lect | the Smálgyax / Smálgyaxian lect | the Sm'algyax / Sm'algyaxian lect | the Smalgyax / Smalgyaxian lect |
a Sm'álgyax / Sm'álgyaxian woman | a Smálgyax / Smálgyaxian woman | a Sm'algyax / Sm'algyaxian woman | a Smalgyax / Smalgyaxian woman |
the Sm'álgyax / Sm'álgyaxian Journal of Bioinformatics | the Smálgyax / Smálgyaxian Journal of Bioinformatics | the Sm'algyax / Sm'algyaxian Journal of Bioinformatics | the Smalgyax / Smalgyaxian Journal of Bioinformatics |
So, which variants should we use in English? Why not keep it simple, not change foreign language words whether as standalone words or as roots, and just add English suffixes, or allow the opposite, not allowing any diacritics or "strange" uses of apostrophes and other symbols, and using only letters that are standardly used for the English language itself? Either option should be fine - The only thing that should be required is consistency. Or maybe those who advocate allowing "Hawai'i" but not allowing "Hawai'ian" should write to the Sm'álgyax people, telling them that the proper use of this word should be "Sm'álgyax" when used alone, but only "Smalgyaxan" or "Smalgyaxian" when an English suffix is added.
Some commentators cite the fact that some early writers in the Hawai'ian language didn't use the 'okina. In the late 19th century, the standardization of many European languages' writing systems was a new trend, and even today the writing systems of many world languages are still in disarray. Knowledge of phonetics, phonology, and about how to design the most appropriate alphabet for a language was very much in its infancy, if not pre-infancy, in the 19th century and early 20th century. Furthermore, many Westerners instinctively modeled their linguistic work for other languages upon European languages, which don't have phonemic glottal stops like the Hawai'ian language and an independent alphabetic letter for them, and unfortunately probably some non-Westerners may have wanted to model their alphabet on those of European languages, which again don't use a separate character for the glottal stop sound. Finally, printers innovated all sorts of quirks such as putting two spaces after a period, because putting one space caused the printing mechanism to hit too hard and break the typesetting-piece used for the period. Can you imagine laboriously type-setting, and at the same time coming to the printing process with a bias towards European languages and a primitive understanding of phonetics, phonology, and proper alphabets? Of course there was confusion. Of course you would save time and energy by just deleting what would seem to be a superfluous flourish. The fact that some early writing in the Hawai'ian language did not use the 'okina properly if at all should not at all be treated as a rational precedent, let alone a dispositive factor.
Right now Wikipedia's manual of style allows the obvious inconsistency of "Hawai'i" followed by "Hawaiian". There is no good reason to forbid the use of "Hawai'ian". There is only one bad reason: to cater to the continuance of a trend (omitting the 'okina) that also happens not to be universal. To my mind, the best requirement is consistency: An article can choose to use either Hawaii/Hawaiian or Hawai'i/Hawai'ian, but should not mix these up. Dechrwr ( talk) 06:25, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
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I am a "Unicode fan" and have been trying to be typographically and philologically correct, entering ʻokina as ʻ . But now I notice everyone else is still using ‘ , even though of course one would not want software to parse it as a quotation mark. Is there a decision on a "standard" method, and if so what is it?
--
IslandGyrl 23:06, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
A word of warning: there are Unicode fonts out there which don't support the 'okina. E.g. I'm using "Arial Unicode", and although Chinese, Japanese, Farsi, etc all show up fine, I get a little box in all the Hawaiian words that include the 'okina. I imagine the same will be true for many unsophisticated users of Wikipedia (i.e. the majority of our readers). So: do you want to be absolutely correct for the specialists, or mostly correct for the average person? Purity has its price... Noel (talk) 04:51, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
The 02BB (or whatever it is) character gives bad results in italics, and in the TOC box. By contrast, the LSQUO looks fine in italics, and in the TOC box, as well as in article text. It also looks fine in the edit box. Thus, the lsquo, or ‘, is a better symbol for "okina" than the 02BB.
Let's see if I can demonstrate this. Check out the following two lines.
Line 1 has LSQUO, line 2 has 02BB. As everyone can see, LSQUO is correctly centered, midway between its neighboring characters. By contrast, 02BB is too far to the right, creating an incorrect gap between the preceding character and 02BB. Even worse, it crowds so close to the following character that it forms a ligature with it.
Examples with uppercase vowels.
In the TOC box, 02BB appears as a rectangle --- incorrect. By contrast, LSQUO has the correct appearance in the TOC box. To see this, check out the TOC box for the subheading for this section. Clearly, LSQUO gives better results in more contexts than 02BB. So LSQUO should be used for the okina symbol. Agent X 23:09, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Although full consensus could not be reached on this proposal, of those commenting there was a clear majority of 11 opposed to 4 in favor. Furthermore, many of those opposed felt very strongly that diacritics should be retained, and all of those in favor have not been actively involved in editing Hawaiʻi-related articles other than to remove diacritics. Therefore, the debate is considered resolved in favor of placing okina and kahakō where appropriate for Hawaiian-language words and place names in the text of articles (diacritics in article titles is a somewhat separate issue; see section below). The discussion is archived below. KarlM ( talk) 18:28, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Please forgive me if this isn't the right place to place a comment...I'm new to Wikipedia. Anyway, I just wanted to point out the irony of this title "Proposal to avoid okina's and kahako's" - The proposal means to delete apostrophes from Hawai'ian language words, but then the very text of the proposal unnecessarily and incorrectly adds apostrophes to Hawai'ian words. I have never understood this trend to take unusual words like foreign words and acronyms and make them plural by adding an apostrophe in addition to the usual English plural marker, the letter "s". The best form of style is to mark all plurals the same way: just by adding "s". The title should read "Proposal to avoid okinas and kahakos". Dechrwr ( talk) 04:45, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I put this forward with some trepidation, as I can see from previous discussion that okina's and kahako's are pretty popular around here. (I expected the section named "okina question" to be about whether to use them, rather skipping directly ahead to the technical issues of how to use them.) However, I would respectfully like to suggest that the de facto convention should change from "use whenever possible" to "use sparingly".
First, an admission: I have never lived in Hawaii, have only visited once many years ago when in the sixth grade, and have not paid unnatural attention to Hawaii since. Many people, I presume, would take this admitted level of non-expertise to be a liability to any argument I might make. However, I would like to make it my chief asset. My contention is that my characteristics with respect to Hawaii are more representative of the general wikipedia user than, say, many of the participants in "Hawaii Wikiproject Hawai'i".
Now, the experts on this wikiproject--like all experts--are very valuable to Wikipedia. You have knowledge that, made availible on this English Wikipedia, can benefit the hundreds of millions of English speakers around the world (most who know little about Hawaii). Posting it is a great service. Yet, that service is reduced if that knowledge is for some reason inaccessible, impenetrable, or just unclear. Due to the open nature of this project, it makes sense that experts speak first to the general audience, and only later to other experts and the few members of the general audience that want to dig deeper. (See WP:NAME, which states, for example "Names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors; and for a general audience over specialists.")
By making okinas and kahako's the default, many Hawaii-related articles are speaking to a specific Hawaiian-speaking, or at least a Hawaii-inhabiting community, rather than to the community at large (people like me). Perhaps with the exception of those who live in Hawaii, the profusion of okina's and kahako's put a veil of unreadability and foreigness over the content. (Maybe it has the same effect for many Hawaii residents, as well. Like I said, I'm not an expert.) An article with these letters and diacritics is not, of course, undecipherable, like Chinese or Sanskrit. But it is more resistant to coding by English speakers. It's something of a cognitive/psychological fact that most English readers will be somewhat startled by such diacritics (which often are effectively meaningless anyway; I couldn't tell you what a "glottal stop" is to save my life). This distraction is not terminal (at least for native speakers), but does represent an impediment. (It is also not in the spirit of WP:UE, which suggests that we should use names "least surprising to a user")
Thus, in the spirit of readabilty/openness, and in accordance with diverse wikipedia conventions such as WP:NAME, WP:ENGLISH, WP:NCGN, I propose that okina's and kahako's be replaced with "plain English" renderings when possible, both in the title and the main text. There may be exceptions, as words with okina's and kahako's might find/have found their way into mainstream English, and would thus be acceptable on an English wikipedia. In addition, I certainly don't think the okina or kahako should be banished...instead they should be used in the same auxillary informative role that other foreign language terms have, i.e. put in italics or parenthesis, often at the introduction of the corresponding English term. In this way, we will maximize accessibility while wholly preserving content.
Erudy 19:55, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I oppose the proposal because it goes against this document, which states that diacritics should be in geographical place names when in Hawaiian. This article from a local newspaper says that the only reason holding back the government from adding the diacritical marks is due to technical restrictions. I don't believe that technical restrictions are stopping us from incorrectly spelling Hawaiian words. To retain accuracy of Hawaiian titles, I believe that the diacritics should be strongly recommended. Singu larity 00:23, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Despite my position stated above, I can tolerate a rule similar to the MOS for Ireland-related articles. Singu larity 00:23, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
What about the fact that Hawaii is a US state (whether you like it or not), and the US government recognizes "Hawaii" as the official name of the state? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.148.25.3 ( talk) 15:40, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
LAUPAHOEHOE, LAIE, KAPAA, KANEOHE,
etc.). I'm not sure they even register spaces or dashes either, or they collate them as absent when checking against existing registered names for duplicates (KAILUAKONA, CAPTAINCOOK,
etc.), though I'm not certain this is the case. (States cannot have more than one locality of the same registered name, and various Hawaiʻi locality names have been changed in official registration to make them distinct from other places in the state of similar or the same name, such as the multiple places named Kailua or Waimea, though in those two particular examples they are spelled the same even in Hawaiian.) And I've been told that even this will probably change in the near future. -
Gilgamesh 09:08, 31 October 2007 (UTC)I'm impressed with the Irish example, as I think the Ireland may be analogous to Hawaii in a number of ways (island politically long dominated by English-speaking group, to the point where previous language is close to extinguised, latter to experience a resurgence on the winds of local pride/nationalism...I'm sure there are many disanalogies to be found by experts on Hawaii and Ireland, but that's the naive glimpse of a non-local:). Let me try to parse a piece of the Irish convention into the Hawaii/English debate:
Where the English and Irish names are the same or very nearly the same, but the English and Irish spellings differ, use the English spelling.
Where the English and Hawaiian names are the same or very nearly the same, but the English and Hawaiian spellings differ, use the English spelling.
Where the English and Irish names are different, and the English name remains the predominant usage in English, use the English name.
Where the English and Hawaiian names are different, and the English name remains the predominant usage in English, use the English name.
Where the English and Irish names are different, and the Irish name is the official name, but has not yet gained favour in English usage, use the English name.
Where the English and Hawaiian names are different, and the Hawaiian name is the official name, but has not yet gained favour in English usage, use the English name.
Where the English and Irish names are different, and the Irish name is the official name, and has gained favour in English usage, use the official Irish name.
Where the English and Hawaiian names are different, and the Hawaiian name is the official name, and has gained favour in English usage, use the official Irish name.
Erudy 21:47, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
The section "Article titles" was added while the general discussion about The ʻokina question is not finished yet. Moreover the replacement at 04:16, 27 April 2008 separated an information about the relevance of grammatical marks for the meaning of terms from the intended correlation with geographic names. The general discussion should be finished before a special guidance for article titles is provided to avoid inconsistency. (see also: Geographic Names) -- ThT ( talk) 16:54, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
With user(s) requesting moves for the articles on Liliuokalani and Lunalilo, something must be done now before we have articles on Hawaiian monarchs all over the place. It would be in everyone's best interests to have a single, written naming convention for Hawaiian monarchs (as one exists now) instead of having an inconsistent string of X and X, King of Hawaii]] and King X of Hawaii. So, I'm requesting that a formal policy be written.
So far, I've seen the following formats being thrown around:
If you have an alternative format suggestion, please feel free to add it here.
Please note, however, that this particular discussion is limited to the names of those who actually reigned (i.e. the Kings and Queen Regnants). Later, we can try and tackle the issue of naming consorts and "lesser" royals.
Please debate your hearts out over the above formats. Later on, when it seems like we're pretty much on the same page, we can attempt to form a concensus. If no concensus is reached, then perhaps all pages should just remain at their current locations. Thanks, 青い(Aoi) 01:47, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
I believe the infamous Gryffindor (né User:Antares911), whose proposals usually are pompous and full of styles + titles, is desiring something like "His (Her) Majesty King (Queen) Christianname Hawaiianname of Hawaii", and thus I add that option above, too. 217.140.193.123 06:11, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
Please insert all discussion here. 青い(Aoi) 01:47, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
Okay, for starters, I want to give a brief background of this topic. When the articles on Hawaiian monarchs were first created, they followed the format, "X of Hawaii," e.g. Kamehameha I of Hawaii. However, in mid-2004, it was suggested on the Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles) that the "of Hawaii" part of the name be removed, and that the monarch's reigning name be used and the Christian name omitted (e.g. instead of Lydia Liliuokalani, simply Liliuokalani would suffice). The suggestion was adopted as policy with only one person opposing it. [2]
Now, some users want to change the format of the articles to make them more similar to naming conventions used in European monarchies. For example, one user wants to change the format used in Hawaiian royalty articles to the format X, King (or Queen) of Hawaii, or King (or Queen) X of Hawaii.
So far, the following suggestions have been brought up:
I would really like to see the naming convention remain the status quo, using only the common (reigning) name of the monarch. Here is my argument:
For these reasons, I would prefer to see all articles on Hawaiian monarchs remain in their current locations. At the very least, redirects could (and probably should) be created to redirect all the formats above (except maybe the one that includes "His Majesty") to their proper locations. 青い(Aoi) 09:02, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
One of the highest forms of respect is to name a person using only the pure reign name of that monarch. Such as Liliuokalani. Using such simple name implies that the person in question is well-known without any additions. (As Liliuokalani actually is.) Very rarely any person is well-known by only one name (surnames are often needed), but several are, such as Napoleon. To accord the same to Hawaiian monarchs signifies the high respect of recognizing the person in question just by her/his one name. All additions are basically cluttering the respect. Pureness is respect, clutter is disrespect. Therefore all additions (be it territorial designation such as "of Hawaii", titulary such as king or queen, a surname, or whatever) are clutter, and should be avoided if not necessary for disambiguation. I support the first alternative (Liliuokalani, Kalakaua, Kamehameha I), and I oppose all the clutter alternatives. Arrigo 09:28, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
I am for leaving the titles the way they are with redirects for the other possible names. Having King/Queen/Princess/Prince X of Hawai'i seems very awkward to me. Also having their Christian names in the title of the section also sounds strange to me. I do not see why we have to adopt the European naming system. -- Gmosaki 21:53, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
I support oprion 1; I could accept option 4, but think it unnecessary; it would also require links to be clumsy or piped. The standard for European royalty is "pre-cmptive disambiguation" but no disambiguation is necessary here. Septentrionalis 22:00, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
My feeling, as before, is to go with the full name of the person, and omit any salutation or additional words. Victoria Kauilani (I'm sure I've misspelled that) seems sufficient to disambiguate, and the content of the article should explain exactly which title she held. I see no reason to have King Foo Bar, when Foo Bar will suffice. Am I missing some other policy requesting King Foo Bar (or King Foo as the example above, or King Foo of Hawaii, which is completely redundant and silly) be used? Avriette 00:20, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
I also would support option 1 as that is the most common form generally used in Hawai‘i. However, I also could support the option of preceding with the title as that is also very often encountered. Here in the Islands, of course, no one would use "name of Hawaii". I'm unsure why this is a problem, since the article can give details and my second option could be a redirect page (or vice versa). No one is likely to search using "of Hawaii", but Queen Liliuokalani or Princess Kaiulani are real terms that would be encountered here and outside of Hawai‘i. - Marshman 04:59, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
Marshman is right that titles for these monarchs are frequently encountered, and though I still oppose such the use of titles in article titles for reigning monarchs (for the reasons I stated above, though I'd like to note that I'd be willing to support the use of titles in articles about princes and princesses, e.g. "Princess Kaiulani"), I have a large amount of respect in Marshman's opinions due to his contributions to Hawaii-related articles. Does anyone else here support the suggestion put forth by Marshman? If so, we should look into this further. Otherwise, it appears that most people who have posted on this page so far have specifically noted that they're against using titles in the article names. Plus, we could easily create redirects to the current articles. 青い(Aoi) 07:22, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
Also I think that the debate is over and the proposition below for guideline could be adopted into use. In Wikipedia, titles king and queen are not included into the article heading - so if there are no compelling reasons, it's not useful to try it here. Let's leave princesses to a separate talk (there would probably be some opposition as to titling "Princess" Ruth Keelikolani, Princess Bernice Bishop, Prince David Kawananakoa...) as also in general standards, certain other factors affect it. Arrigo 10:50, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
and another previous email from him said: "I think having a title with a country is fine ...least offensive elucidation ... Lilioukalana of Hawa'ai, that kind of thing ... "
I would concur with Mowens35. If you said that "Queen" is difficult because Hawaiian titles vary, I agree. But that's what she was most known as abroad. But in many other countries we have titles that would not really translate correctly into english, but are used anyways, like Emperor Jimmu, although tenno would not really be emperor either. And Queen Lilioukalani was known in her lifetime as just that, as a Queen of Hawaii. I don't really see an issue with adding a title and/or the country. A redirect would lead to it. Gryffindor 00:54, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Imo it is useful to define for which class of biographies the rule is intended, i.e "Hawaiian monarchs" - otherwise we soon have people who will apply it to something else, or people who contest (want to change) the policy because they imagine it applies to something else (something which is important to them). The rule should also say that the article itself should conform with standards for Wikipedia biographical articles, as I have seen too many times that some people imagine that a policy on the heading affects all the article. It's on the contrary: if and when the heading is brief, simple etc, the article itself should give all the information, including titles, what was ruled, all the names and a.k.a.s etc. Particularly the introductory paragraph is important. All that is outlined in the Wikipedia guideline for biograhies. Perhaps it would also be good to mention that style or honorific is never in the heading. About the territory, its reason in the rule should also state that there is no necessity to disambiguate on basis of country. Arrigo 23:26, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Formulating a MoS provision: As it seems to me that option 1 receives the overwhelming majority, at least a rough consensus, I already start formulating the resolution:
"Articles of Monarchs of Hawaiian Kingdom have the monarch's Hawaiian reign name as the heading, and the ordinal if necessary for disambiguation. For example, Kamehameha IV, Liliuokalani. The possible christened name is not to be included into the heading, and not any other non-reign name. The titulary (Queen, King) is not used in the heading, nor any style or honorific. The territorial designation ("of Hawaii") is not to be used in the heading since there is no necessity to disambiguate on basis of country. The text of the article follow standards and guidelines for WP biographical articles." 217.140.193.123 22:22, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
Aloha all - I've put a conceptual first stub draft of the MoS up...I sort of envision it looking somewhat like the AP Stylebook, which shows terms, how they should be spelled, and further explanatory notes on usage and background. Any feedback would be appreciated. Mahalo! -- KeithH 10:17, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
The user in question feels that we should use "as short a name as possible", whenever possible. That would make Peahi, Hawaii just Peahi. Any comments on this? Please note the other examples listed in the diff, including Kihei and Paia, and so on. ... aa: talk 19:12, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
The Geographic Names Information System (GNIS) might be a good tool to check for the right spelling. Especially watch the section Board on Geographic Names Decisions for the preferred spelling. Like in the U.S. Geological Survey Geographic Names Information System: Feature ID 364685 the most recent decision refers to the spelling with ʻokina and de:Kahakō (an English article is still missing). See also Hawaiian Dictionaries which includes Place names. --ThT 07:29, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Done. As for titles, WP:NAME is clear that okinas should be avoided in titles, and while it's ambiguous about other diacritics, if we're going to comply with that then we need to be consistent and leave out kahakō as well. KarlM ( talk) 18:28, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the words "where appropriate" mean in the following sentence. "Where appropriate, use of the kahakō and ʻokina is preferred in Hawaiian words and names used in articles dealing with Hawaiʻi." Does it simply mean to use the diacritical marks in words that are written with them and not in words that do not employ them?
In my last edit, I attempted to reorganize and clarify the project page. I did not intend to change the guidance; if I did do so, it was inadvertent. Walter Siegmund (talk) 18:02, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Is this page ready to be added to the "Wikipedia style guidelines" cat? The current thinking on style guidelines is: anyone can create them, and they're as official as they need to be, until and unless we have reason to believe they're not. So, another way to ask the question is: does anyone know of a reason why this shouldn't be in the style guidelines category? - Dan Dank55 ( talk)( mistakes) 20:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Can you give me an idea how many English works that Wikipedia considers reliable sources have been written using okinas? And even better would be if these sources use words commonly known by Hawaiians but not by mainlanders, because that would help to establish this writing style as a variety of English. - Dan Dank55 ( talk)( mistakes) 01:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Okay. All I'm trying to do here is come up arguments that generally work when your article is getting reviewed; what you guys want to do with this is up to you. "The Hawaiian language is obviously not widely used conversationally, but where it is (such as in language courses and Hawaiian immersion schools), the ʻokina and kahakō are invariably used." I think that argument easily wins. What I was worried about was the possibility that there was a thriving written language that omitted the diacritics; that would have presented a problem. It's not enough to say that people might get the pronunciation wrong if the two diacritics are omitted, because lots of languages, including and especially English, have strange pronunciations and weirdly spelled words that would be a lot easier to pronounce if they had diacritics. So: for just about every word I've seen written with the ʻokina (including ʻokina!), feel free to include the diacritics if they're written that way. For those few Hawaiian words that actually show up at http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary (which is the most commonly used link by American journalists these days to figure out whether a word is in the language or not), such as Hawaii, Lanai and ukulele, please omit the ʻokina, except that it's perfectly okay...in fact a good idea...to show the spelling with the ʻokina and explain the pronunciation, and explain that that's the way people always say and often write the word in Hawaii, just as it's done in the last paragraph of the lead section of Hawaii. You could do the same at ukulele if you like. For an article that isn't about ukuleles, but in which the word "ukulele" appears once, you wouldn't usually want to stop the narrative to explain what an okina is...it would interrupt the "flow"...but if an article has a more "leisurely" pace, or if the subject of the article is tied to Hawaii in some way, then I would have no problem at all with inserting something like "(written ʻukulele in Hawaiian)" at the first occurrence of the word "ukulele". - Dan Dank55 ( talk)( mistakes) 18:02, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I am confused. It looked to me like the consensus was to use the ʻokina (and kahako?) in the text of the aticle, but not the name. Was that correct? I see a bunch of discussion about a year ago, then not much. I have been putting them in, but user User:Nyttend has been taking them out. I would volunteer to clarify in the MOS, but wonder if there has been a change in policy to no longer use them in the text? Every scholarly source I know of in the last thirty years or so uses them. My particular issue is with the place names, since government databases do not use them as noted in the discussion, but also as noted they often also omit punctuation, and even upper/lower case letters. The other database is the National Register of Historic Places, which sometimes uses appostrophes but usually omits them. Are the "CDP" articles covered under this manual of style or another?
The other issue perhaps not discussed yet is that the sources before mid-twentieth century use the dash convention, e.g. ke-ala-ke-kua instead of kealakekua, etc. and a few of the ancient person names seem to use than convention from the old sources, or a mixture of styles. W Nowicki ( talk) 21:08, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
OK, then what can we do to stop people from taking out the ʻokinas that we carefully put in? Is there some more formal step to elevate this style guide to an official one, instead of saying it is "proposed"? For what it is worth, here are my thoughts:
ʻokina and kahakō are used in almost all the scholarly literature written in the last 25 years or so, in my experience. As noted above, the kahakō is used in less of the encyclopedic-quality sources outside the islands, and conventoins vary greatly for web sites and guidebooks, but even they are often using them. I think a good guideline is if the word would appear in a reasonable English dictionary, including "Hawaii" itself and perhaps the major islands. My convention is to spell as Hawaiʻi only in the context of the Big Island, the Kingdom, or ancient times. Certainly when anglicizing a word by putting English endings on it, e.g. "Hawaiian" is another good indication that an okina is not needed.
All my articles are creating without neither ʻokina nor kahakō in the titles, but with them in the article text. This means that links to them are always piped, but that needs to be done anyway if we are to use the template. One reason is that most people are lazy typists, and will generally do searches without the marks. Of course redirect pages need to be used often, in case people do stuff in the characters, but imagine that is less common. This puts a burden on the writer of the article (typing all those piped links), but if we are doing our job, articles are only written once but read many times, so a little extra work in the authoring process to have a more acurate article makes sense. It also means the title of the article will not match exactly what is embolded in the first line, but seems a reasonable compromise.
For words (particularly place names) that are not English at all, e.g. Honokaʻa or Kapaʻau, should use the marks anywhere they are mentioned in the article. Spelling as "Honokaa" and "Kapaau" is not "spelling them in English", it is spelling them with a consonant missing. Just because some old government databases have llimitations that spell that way, is not a good reason to use them in encyclopedic writing. For example, we live on Aliʻi Drive, which the post office writes as ALII DR, no puctuation at all even for abbeviations, all upper case. They still deliver if it is fully spelled out.
For NRHP listings, evidently the name in the infobox must match exactly the database (or that just someone's taste?). Unfortunately they are inconsistent, with some using single quote, but most eliding the ʻokina. The real question is the CDPs. We might need to split them, and have an article, say, on "Honkaa CDP" for the census data and another on the historical community that complies with this manual of style. That would be a shame, since I would prefer to have fewer high-quality articles than zillions of stubs. But would that be the only solution that makes some happy?
The more I look into this, it seems the precendents are for articles on places in France and Spain to use accents, and even the Irish policy, would all apply. The burden of argument should be for the ones who eliminate the marks to show why they want an exception for Hawaii. Otherwise this could be considered subtle racism: Hawaiian words deserve the same respect as European languages.
Please let us move this forward. Mahalo. W Nowicki ( talk) 02:52, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
And actually, the example of "Hawaiʻian" I am not sure if it was meant to be, but should be "Hawaiian" as per the guide. If you are adding English-like endings to a word, you are admitting it is now an English word, so would drop the ʻokina. Similarly adding "S" for plural, or 's for posessive. W Nowicki ( talk) 19:05, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Yet again: User:Nyttend has backed out the ʻokinas from the Honokaa, Hawaii article. This is the third time he did this without giving any reason in the talk page. Does this mean we can officially call it an edit war and start the mediation process? W Nowicki ( talk) 22:55, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
The separate CDP article for every community that has an ʻokina has been proposed, but would be ugly and not likey any other encyclopedia that I know of. Besides, my guess is that he would immediately move the CDP back to Honokaa, Hawaii so we would have to create an article with a title like "Honokaa, the community, Hawaii" which would be unlikely to be found easily. As a reader certainly I would prefer a single article that describes both the census data, as well as history and other notable aspects of that place. How about this policy: use the CDP spelling in the infobox and article title, and a line in the lead like: "Honokaa, Hawaii is a census-designated place (CDP) in the Hamakua District of Hawaii County, Hawaii, United States, including the community of Honokaʻa." Or perhaps "Honokaʻa is a community in the Hamakua District of Hawaii County, Hawaii, United States, designated as the census-designated place (CDP) Honokaa, Hawaii." Or "...corresponding to the CDP" "CDP named for the community of..." or "...community within the CDP..." Then I would propose using the ʻokina in the body consistently, but would be open to using the strict CDP name for the census data to make it clear which is which, if allowed to use the modern orthography for the historical information in the body. This would be fairly consistent with the NRHP policy. Does anyone know if the 2010 census will use the modern names that the GNIS uses? If I have time I will be bold and edit the style guide with my proposal unless there are objections. W Nowicki ( talk) 03:29, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Actually, look at your example: The article Honaunau-Napoopoo, Hawaii has no ʻokina nor kahakō in the entire article body. The issue is that attempts to use modern orthography in compliance with these guidelines in CDP articles have been backed out by Nyttend. So perhaps we need to make sure we have consensus and then go to mediation. There are a bunch of articles now that just have CDP data in them that I would like to augment with more info. A remaining question is what wording to use in the leads. I would be inclined to call them a "community in the CDP" since that term is more amorphous than " town" or " village" which can have legal standing in other states. Although community might be a bit too amorphous. Or maybe "CDP named for ..."? Or use the official term " populated place" since that what GNIS calls them. Thanks for any feedback. See also recent edits to the Wikipedia:WikiProject Hawaii/Manual of Style itself. W Nowicki ( talk) 02:14, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Answering my question about the policy regarding the GNIS the U.S. Census Bureau (Geography Division) answered:
-- ThT ( talk) 00:03, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
That is great to hear, thanks for clarifying this. Although we still do not know exactly what the 2010 CDP names will be, I can try to summarize this in the guide. With any luck, the state officials will use the University of Hawaii place names database too. Any guess as to how long it would be until we get the list of names (maybe before the actual counts)? In the meanwhile I can work on other articles besides Hawaiian CDPs to avoid edit wars. Aloha. W Nowicki ( talk) 16:22, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
I noticed that many Hawaii articles have the European-style date format of "day Month year". I know this is what perhaps a majority of the world uses, and they are allowed by the general date style guideline, but like it or not, the "month day, year" style is used almost exclusively wthin Hawaii, and with most sources I have seen (published in the islands or the mainland). So I would propose recommending to use the "month day, year" style, but avoid mass changing. Any comments? W Nowicki ( talk) 18:34, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
There is currently an ongoing discussion about the future of this and others MoS naming style. Please consider the issues raised in the discussion and vote if you wish GnevinAWB ( talk) 21:03, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
It has been proposed this MOS be moved to Wikipedia:Subject style guide . Please comment at the RFC GnevinAWB ( talk) 20:54, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Editors may be interested in this RFC, along with the discussion of its implementation:
Should all subsidiary pages of the Manual of Style be made subpages of WP:MOS?
It's big; and it promises huge improvements. Great if everyone can be involved. Noetica Tea? 00:38, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
Since the MOS states that the title of the article should not include diacritical marks, ( MOS:HAWAII#Article_titles), should we suggest a massive article move to an admin? See Ewa Beach and Kapaa as a few of the many examples. -- Travis Thurston+ 19:20, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
"If the ʻokina is used, it is recommended that editors use the {{okina}} template rather than the apostrophe, or "left single quote" character. Please see the following sections for more guidance on a few special cases or specific topics." - This should be updated. There is an ʻokina character (this ʻ) already that people can copy and paste in place of the template and saves more page space and makes the text more readable. The result for the reader is all the same but the difference is seeing Hawai{{okina}}i or Hawaiʻi when editing.-- KAVEBEAR ( talk) 22:57, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
I want ask another question to TParis, Viriditas. Should the apostrophe be used in place of the okina? It's not specifically outlawed in the rules of the this wikiproject. But I argue we shouldn't in respect of the Hawaiian language.-- KAVEBEAR ( talk) 23:05, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
This project still has this Template:nothaweng. One great thing this Wikiproject was doing before was maintaining the correct Hawaiian orthography in strictly Hawaiian cultural terms (the umbrella of subject you are speaking of) in defense of the works of linguists such as Mary Kawena Pukui and other academic of the second Hawaiian Renaissance in line with the practice of the modern Hawaiian language and in respect of its mission to be accurate. Excuse my interpretations/exaggeration (you can call it that but I won't) here if you disagree. It is not a leap in my opinion whatever my opinion is worth. Most of my arguments up to this point are not about policies because I could care less about policies. I am not Wikipedia editor. I am a person who edits on Wikipedia.-- KAVEBEAR ( talk) 23:46, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
An apostrophe is not a part of the standard, traditional, Hawaiian orthography. Apostrophe's should never take the place of an ʻokina in article titles or in the body of the article with words from the Hawaiian language. Unless used as apart of a formal spelling, apostrophes should be replaced with the ʻokina character (ʻ).
-- Mark Miller ( talk) 00:19, 26 June 2014 (UTC)It is strongly urged that article titles using Hawaiian language words, use the standard, Hawaiian orthography. The ʻokina is used on Wikipedia whenever an apostrophe is used in sources. Use of the macron is part of Hawaiian orthography and is preferred over non use, even when the subject is not referred to as such in a majority of reliable sources.
I am separating this as a subsection to avoid any confusion as we discuss the other topic above...One question or issue that seems to have been buried in this long discussion about the apostrophe and that I feel we haven't been fully addressed. Should we use improper or partial orthography in the title and the body of a article which in all orthographical correctness should utilize? Articles which uses no marks at all like Luau or Kau, Hawaii is okay. I don't oppose not using orthographical marks. I am only against partial use.-- KAVEBEAR ( talk) 01:57, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
Restating the above so people can support or reject. Before voting, please review/correct the wording/intent to make sure it reflects the discussion. Of course, feel free to add your own alternatives as you like. Lfstevens ( talk) 03:11, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
&...;
character entity) that uses the same glyph. This is a general Wikipedia practice, and nothing to do with this language in particular.Partial support (needs some clarification): #3 is too vague and overbroad, but has merit if corrected. We should not impose the marks on words that have been absorbed into general English usage, when used outside the context of native Hawaiʻian culture, including in Hawaiian–American popular culture; but this has nothing to do with which article it's in, but rather the content context, anywhere. It might be a linguistic article about a feature of language found in 20 different languages, for example, or an article on pottery in 20 different cultures. The same word in a Hawaii-related article may have a native-culture meaning and a Western-industrialized-culture meaning (as is the case with a certain piece of sports equipment, I gather, but I'm no expert on that). In non-native contexts, of course use the correct orthography when giving the Hawaiʻian-language "translation", as KAVEBEAR notes below.
#4: Same story as both #2, #9, and #3; it's effectively moot if we go with #1, when it comes to native-culture context (use the marks), or Westernized context (don't use), but it's an unworkable requirement in a mixed context. When the words are used in their native sense, they are foreign words (and should be italicized as such and marked up with {{
lang|haw}}
at first usage in an article), but in their non-native sense they are English-language words of Hawaiʻian-language origin. (I don't want to get into a debate about usage in linguistics, in which I have a minor degree; WP has gone with COMMONNAME obsessiveness and put the article at
Hawaiian language, even though serious linguists would probably prefer to use the
native endonymic form). While I wouldn't change the spelling in an article, MOS/AT doesn't dictate how I write my talk page posts. >;-) The main message on both these "partial" points and #9 above is that the "be consistent within an article" practice cannot be abused to force "consistency" between two related but actually different things. It's simply wrong to refer to "the state of Hawaiʻi" in English, but equally wrong to drop the ʻokina, in the same article, from where it belongs when referring to Hawaiʻin-language terms in the context of native Hawaiʻian culture.
On #5 we also need to have some guidance when an article's title differs from the text usage. Should we be consistent with the article's title, or with the orthography? Are there exceptions?-- Mark Miller ( talk) 17:44, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
This section of the MOS states that "...articles that have not used the diacritics in the title, will list the native language spelling as an alternative, alongside the title spelling in the lede and then repeat the alternative spelling consistently throughout the running text in the body of the article." What is the rationale for having one spelling for the article title and another in the article text? See Hawaii County, Hawaii for an example of this in practice. — AjaxSmack 20:23, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
It appears that both Hawaii County, Hawaii [1] [2] [3] and Kauai County, Hawaii [4] [5] [6] have formally amended their county charters to add the ʻokina to their respective corporate names in the past decade. I understand that there has already been extensive discussion about geographic names; however, both of these charter amendments were voted on after most of the discussion took place. Both county articles often use the ʻokina within the body of the article in the counties' names, but not in the article titles themselves. It does look like there are redirects from Hawaiʻi County, Hawaii and Kauaʻi County, Hawaii. Should the articles be switched so that the ones with the ʻokina are the lead articles, and the ones without are redirects, in order to conform with the formal corporate names of the counties? Mac3387 ( talk) 02:52, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
References
@ Francis Schonken: KAVEBEAR ( talk) 16:43, 25 November 2019 (UTC) “The word "Hawaii" appears in most English dictionaries, so either spelling can be appropropriate. The modern US State is usually just "Hawaii". The ʻokina is often used when talking about the ancient culture, Kingdom of Hawaiʻi, or the island of Hawaiʻi in the body of the article.”
It’s not that hard and has been the official usage for a while. The recent edits removes the reference to the section entirely. The official name of the entity is the State of Hawaii while Hawaii can be used to refer to the cultural region. KAVEBEAR ( talk) 16:36, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
I wanted to ask if Wikipedia: Manual of Style/Hawaii-related articles could include a section on using the article "an" before the word "ukulele", at least for Hawaii-related articles? Otherwise, we have these situations where bots come in and change everything to "a ukulele" even where it seems highly inappropriate. Cielquiparle ( talk) 13:04, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
There's some very good, in-depth, ongoing discussion at Talk:2023 Hawaii wildfires § Use of Hawaiian symbols in names that I hope will lead to some wiki-wide changes & policies being updated, which are overdue and sorely needed – especially given that this MOS doesn't seem like it's often followed, unfortunately, or that many people are aware of it in the first place! Anyone watching this talk page would probably be interested in reading through the conversation that's happening and/or getting involved. – Fpmfpm ( talk) 13:44, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
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There is currently some disagreement over how articles on Hawaiian royals should be named. Perhaps we should develop specific conventions on how to title such articles.
For example, a user recently suggested that Victoria Kaiulani be renamed to either Princess Victoria Kaiulani, Victoria Kaiulani, Princess of Hawaii, or Princess Victoria Kaiulani of Hawaii. I have no objection to any of the three names at this present moment (except maybe that the "of Hawaii" part is redundant, as Hawaiian names are unique to Hawaii unlike European names), as long as there is a set standard and that all articles about Hawaiian royals follow the same conventions.
Further reference
Any input? Mahalo nui loa, 青い(Aoi) 04:12, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Concluded from the earlier discussions, the consensus now exists that Hawaiian royalty does not need "of Hawaii", basically the first name of the person suffices. This seems a good convention. I agree to it. 217.140.193.123 09:20, 10 July 2005 (UTC) Moreover, titles are unnecessary - even in European naming conventions, kings and suchlike do not have their royal titles in the heading of the article (and this despite there being much royalty nuts and protocol-minded people in Europe). My opinion is to keep such titles away from Hawaiian headings too, if not absolutely necessary for disambiguation purposes. 217.140.193.123 14:44, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Umm, how would you base the desire to have "Cleghorn" there? When dealing with royalty, we tend to avoid surnames, as royalty traditionally often did not have such and most usually did not use one (even if some royal had such). 217.140.193.123 21:38, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
I must ask whether "Victoria" is a part of her widely known name??? Or, is it just some addition from birth registers or from too-religious minded archivists who want to remember all christian names... If it is not well known, it should probably be dropped. (After all, Kalakaua, Lunalilo etc are without such. 217.140.193.123 21:38, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Actually, I wish for simplicity, and also for uphelding the name with which the object is best known. When those are determined, the consistency should be built upon such considerations. 217.140.193.123 21:38, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Please kindly all visit Wikipedia:Requested moves, where Liliuokalani and Lunalilo have now been triggered towards move, as initiated by a certain Gryffindor. 217.140.193.123 17:31, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to reopen discussion of the use of the 'okina in Hawai'ian language words and in, crucially, words derived from the Hawai'ian language, like...the word "Hawai'ian". I don't understand some English speakers' antipathy to this sound...in English, we pronounce it before every single word that supposedly begins with a vowel, like "it" and "every"; these words actually don't begin with a vowel, they begin with the exact same glottal stop sound that's used in the Hawai'ian language. In English, we even use the glottal stop within morphemes when we say something like "uh oh". Why do we instinctively use this sound in our own language, but balk at using it in words derived from another language? Sure it's phonemic in the Hawai'ian language but not in English; however, we still do say it all the time.
According to this Wikipedia style guide, the adjective "Hawai'ian" should not have a 'okina in it because it has an English suffixed attached. But the English suffix is attached to a Hawai'ian word. Even the Wikipedia style manual tolerates the use of the 'okina in the word "Hawai'i", and indeed the use of the 'okina in the root noun Hawai'i is advocated by the University of Hawai'i's Manual of Style. [1] Is it not illogically incongruous to use the 'okina in the root noun, but delete it in adjective form, especially when we have the exact same sound in the English language, and the use of the symbol is being advocated by the relevant state's leading institution of higher education? Does it not look silly to allow "Hawai'i" in a text, but then soon thereafter require the use only of "Hawaiian"? Allowing immediately obvious inconsistencies should not be a desirable outcome from a manual of style.
Even the University of Hawai'i's Manual of Style, though, uses "Hawaiian" and not "Hawai'ian". However, other parts of the academic community use "Hawai'ian" even if the subject is not connected with indigenous Hawai'ian culture or language. There's a "Hawai'ian Volcanic Eruption", [2] [3] "Hawai'ian waters", [4] and "Hawai'ian" beach sands [5]. On the other hand, there is the "Hawaiian Journal of Law and Politics", [6] and the "Hawaiian Journal of History" [7]. There's a CV of a scholar who calls this the "Hawai'ian Journal of History", though. [8] There are plenty of non-academic sites that use the word "Hawai'ian". [9] [10] One Hawai'ian science site apologizes for not consistently using the 'okina when it should be used. [11]
The rule that a foreign-language word loses its foreign-looking characteristics when an English grammatical suffix is attached, but can keep those foreign-looking characteristics when used unmodified in English, is new to me. I'm wondering: Are those who advocate for such a rule able to provide examples of other situations in which this rule manifests itself? Why is it necessary that the English adjectival suffix "-an" requires the 'okina to disappear from a root word, like "Hawai'i", to which it's attached? Let's expand this unusual rule to another situation: that of the Coast Tsimshian language lects. One specific lect is called "Sm'álgyax" - This word has both a phonemic glottal stop represented by the same sort of symbol as that used for the Hawai'ian language, and it has an accent mark on a vowel. So, when writing in English about this tribe and their language, which should we write?
the Sm'álgyax / Sm'álgyaxian lect | the Smálgyax / Smálgyaxian lect | the Sm'algyax / Sm'algyaxian lect | the Smalgyax / Smalgyaxian lect |
a Sm'álgyax / Sm'álgyaxian woman | a Smálgyax / Smálgyaxian woman | a Sm'algyax / Sm'algyaxian woman | a Smalgyax / Smalgyaxian woman |
the Sm'álgyax / Sm'álgyaxian Journal of Bioinformatics | the Smálgyax / Smálgyaxian Journal of Bioinformatics | the Sm'algyax / Sm'algyaxian Journal of Bioinformatics | the Smalgyax / Smalgyaxian Journal of Bioinformatics |
So, which variants should we use in English? Why not keep it simple, not change foreign language words whether as standalone words or as roots, and just add English suffixes, or allow the opposite, not allowing any diacritics or "strange" uses of apostrophes and other symbols, and using only letters that are standardly used for the English language itself? Either option should be fine - The only thing that should be required is consistency. Or maybe those who advocate allowing "Hawai'i" but not allowing "Hawai'ian" should write to the Sm'álgyax people, telling them that the proper use of this word should be "Sm'álgyax" when used alone, but only "Smalgyaxan" or "Smalgyaxian" when an English suffix is added.
Some commentators cite the fact that some early writers in the Hawai'ian language didn't use the 'okina. In the late 19th century, the standardization of many European languages' writing systems was a new trend, and even today the writing systems of many world languages are still in disarray. Knowledge of phonetics, phonology, and about how to design the most appropriate alphabet for a language was very much in its infancy, if not pre-infancy, in the 19th century and early 20th century. Furthermore, many Westerners instinctively modeled their linguistic work for other languages upon European languages, which don't have phonemic glottal stops like the Hawai'ian language and an independent alphabetic letter for them, and unfortunately probably some non-Westerners may have wanted to model their alphabet on those of European languages, which again don't use a separate character for the glottal stop sound. Finally, printers innovated all sorts of quirks such as putting two spaces after a period, because putting one space caused the printing mechanism to hit too hard and break the typesetting-piece used for the period. Can you imagine laboriously type-setting, and at the same time coming to the printing process with a bias towards European languages and a primitive understanding of phonetics, phonology, and proper alphabets? Of course there was confusion. Of course you would save time and energy by just deleting what would seem to be a superfluous flourish. The fact that some early writing in the Hawai'ian language did not use the 'okina properly if at all should not at all be treated as a rational precedent, let alone a dispositive factor.
Right now Wikipedia's manual of style allows the obvious inconsistency of "Hawai'i" followed by "Hawaiian". There is no good reason to forbid the use of "Hawai'ian". There is only one bad reason: to cater to the continuance of a trend (omitting the 'okina) that also happens not to be universal. To my mind, the best requirement is consistency: An article can choose to use either Hawaii/Hawaiian or Hawai'i/Hawai'ian, but should not mix these up. Dechrwr ( talk) 06:25, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
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I am a "Unicode fan" and have been trying to be typographically and philologically correct, entering ʻokina as ʻ . But now I notice everyone else is still using ‘ , even though of course one would not want software to parse it as a quotation mark. Is there a decision on a "standard" method, and if so what is it?
--
IslandGyrl 23:06, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
A word of warning: there are Unicode fonts out there which don't support the 'okina. E.g. I'm using "Arial Unicode", and although Chinese, Japanese, Farsi, etc all show up fine, I get a little box in all the Hawaiian words that include the 'okina. I imagine the same will be true for many unsophisticated users of Wikipedia (i.e. the majority of our readers). So: do you want to be absolutely correct for the specialists, or mostly correct for the average person? Purity has its price... Noel (talk) 04:51, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
The 02BB (or whatever it is) character gives bad results in italics, and in the TOC box. By contrast, the LSQUO looks fine in italics, and in the TOC box, as well as in article text. It also looks fine in the edit box. Thus, the lsquo, or ‘, is a better symbol for "okina" than the 02BB.
Let's see if I can demonstrate this. Check out the following two lines.
Line 1 has LSQUO, line 2 has 02BB. As everyone can see, LSQUO is correctly centered, midway between its neighboring characters. By contrast, 02BB is too far to the right, creating an incorrect gap between the preceding character and 02BB. Even worse, it crowds so close to the following character that it forms a ligature with it.
Examples with uppercase vowels.
In the TOC box, 02BB appears as a rectangle --- incorrect. By contrast, LSQUO has the correct appearance in the TOC box. To see this, check out the TOC box for the subheading for this section. Clearly, LSQUO gives better results in more contexts than 02BB. So LSQUO should be used for the okina symbol. Agent X 23:09, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Although full consensus could not be reached on this proposal, of those commenting there was a clear majority of 11 opposed to 4 in favor. Furthermore, many of those opposed felt very strongly that diacritics should be retained, and all of those in favor have not been actively involved in editing Hawaiʻi-related articles other than to remove diacritics. Therefore, the debate is considered resolved in favor of placing okina and kahakō where appropriate for Hawaiian-language words and place names in the text of articles (diacritics in article titles is a somewhat separate issue; see section below). The discussion is archived below. KarlM ( talk) 18:28, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Please forgive me if this isn't the right place to place a comment...I'm new to Wikipedia. Anyway, I just wanted to point out the irony of this title "Proposal to avoid okina's and kahako's" - The proposal means to delete apostrophes from Hawai'ian language words, but then the very text of the proposal unnecessarily and incorrectly adds apostrophes to Hawai'ian words. I have never understood this trend to take unusual words like foreign words and acronyms and make them plural by adding an apostrophe in addition to the usual English plural marker, the letter "s". The best form of style is to mark all plurals the same way: just by adding "s". The title should read "Proposal to avoid okinas and kahakos". Dechrwr ( talk) 04:45, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I put this forward with some trepidation, as I can see from previous discussion that okina's and kahako's are pretty popular around here. (I expected the section named "okina question" to be about whether to use them, rather skipping directly ahead to the technical issues of how to use them.) However, I would respectfully like to suggest that the de facto convention should change from "use whenever possible" to "use sparingly".
First, an admission: I have never lived in Hawaii, have only visited once many years ago when in the sixth grade, and have not paid unnatural attention to Hawaii since. Many people, I presume, would take this admitted level of non-expertise to be a liability to any argument I might make. However, I would like to make it my chief asset. My contention is that my characteristics with respect to Hawaii are more representative of the general wikipedia user than, say, many of the participants in "Hawaii Wikiproject Hawai'i".
Now, the experts on this wikiproject--like all experts--are very valuable to Wikipedia. You have knowledge that, made availible on this English Wikipedia, can benefit the hundreds of millions of English speakers around the world (most who know little about Hawaii). Posting it is a great service. Yet, that service is reduced if that knowledge is for some reason inaccessible, impenetrable, or just unclear. Due to the open nature of this project, it makes sense that experts speak first to the general audience, and only later to other experts and the few members of the general audience that want to dig deeper. (See WP:NAME, which states, for example "Names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors; and for a general audience over specialists.")
By making okinas and kahako's the default, many Hawaii-related articles are speaking to a specific Hawaiian-speaking, or at least a Hawaii-inhabiting community, rather than to the community at large (people like me). Perhaps with the exception of those who live in Hawaii, the profusion of okina's and kahako's put a veil of unreadability and foreigness over the content. (Maybe it has the same effect for many Hawaii residents, as well. Like I said, I'm not an expert.) An article with these letters and diacritics is not, of course, undecipherable, like Chinese or Sanskrit. But it is more resistant to coding by English speakers. It's something of a cognitive/psychological fact that most English readers will be somewhat startled by such diacritics (which often are effectively meaningless anyway; I couldn't tell you what a "glottal stop" is to save my life). This distraction is not terminal (at least for native speakers), but does represent an impediment. (It is also not in the spirit of WP:UE, which suggests that we should use names "least surprising to a user")
Thus, in the spirit of readabilty/openness, and in accordance with diverse wikipedia conventions such as WP:NAME, WP:ENGLISH, WP:NCGN, I propose that okina's and kahako's be replaced with "plain English" renderings when possible, both in the title and the main text. There may be exceptions, as words with okina's and kahako's might find/have found their way into mainstream English, and would thus be acceptable on an English wikipedia. In addition, I certainly don't think the okina or kahako should be banished...instead they should be used in the same auxillary informative role that other foreign language terms have, i.e. put in italics or parenthesis, often at the introduction of the corresponding English term. In this way, we will maximize accessibility while wholly preserving content.
Erudy 19:55, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I oppose the proposal because it goes against this document, which states that diacritics should be in geographical place names when in Hawaiian. This article from a local newspaper says that the only reason holding back the government from adding the diacritical marks is due to technical restrictions. I don't believe that technical restrictions are stopping us from incorrectly spelling Hawaiian words. To retain accuracy of Hawaiian titles, I believe that the diacritics should be strongly recommended. Singu larity 00:23, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Despite my position stated above, I can tolerate a rule similar to the MOS for Ireland-related articles. Singu larity 00:23, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
What about the fact that Hawaii is a US state (whether you like it or not), and the US government recognizes "Hawaii" as the official name of the state? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.148.25.3 ( talk) 15:40, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
LAUPAHOEHOE, LAIE, KAPAA, KANEOHE,
etc.). I'm not sure they even register spaces or dashes either, or they collate them as absent when checking against existing registered names for duplicates (KAILUAKONA, CAPTAINCOOK,
etc.), though I'm not certain this is the case. (States cannot have more than one locality of the same registered name, and various Hawaiʻi locality names have been changed in official registration to make them distinct from other places in the state of similar or the same name, such as the multiple places named Kailua or Waimea, though in those two particular examples they are spelled the same even in Hawaiian.) And I've been told that even this will probably change in the near future. -
Gilgamesh 09:08, 31 October 2007 (UTC)I'm impressed with the Irish example, as I think the Ireland may be analogous to Hawaii in a number of ways (island politically long dominated by English-speaking group, to the point where previous language is close to extinguised, latter to experience a resurgence on the winds of local pride/nationalism...I'm sure there are many disanalogies to be found by experts on Hawaii and Ireland, but that's the naive glimpse of a non-local:). Let me try to parse a piece of the Irish convention into the Hawaii/English debate:
Where the English and Irish names are the same or very nearly the same, but the English and Irish spellings differ, use the English spelling.
Where the English and Hawaiian names are the same or very nearly the same, but the English and Hawaiian spellings differ, use the English spelling.
Where the English and Irish names are different, and the English name remains the predominant usage in English, use the English name.
Where the English and Hawaiian names are different, and the English name remains the predominant usage in English, use the English name.
Where the English and Irish names are different, and the Irish name is the official name, but has not yet gained favour in English usage, use the English name.
Where the English and Hawaiian names are different, and the Hawaiian name is the official name, but has not yet gained favour in English usage, use the English name.
Where the English and Irish names are different, and the Irish name is the official name, and has gained favour in English usage, use the official Irish name.
Where the English and Hawaiian names are different, and the Hawaiian name is the official name, and has gained favour in English usage, use the official Irish name.
Erudy 21:47, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
The section "Article titles" was added while the general discussion about The ʻokina question is not finished yet. Moreover the replacement at 04:16, 27 April 2008 separated an information about the relevance of grammatical marks for the meaning of terms from the intended correlation with geographic names. The general discussion should be finished before a special guidance for article titles is provided to avoid inconsistency. (see also: Geographic Names) -- ThT ( talk) 16:54, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
With user(s) requesting moves for the articles on Liliuokalani and Lunalilo, something must be done now before we have articles on Hawaiian monarchs all over the place. It would be in everyone's best interests to have a single, written naming convention for Hawaiian monarchs (as one exists now) instead of having an inconsistent string of X and X, King of Hawaii]] and King X of Hawaii. So, I'm requesting that a formal policy be written.
So far, I've seen the following formats being thrown around:
If you have an alternative format suggestion, please feel free to add it here.
Please note, however, that this particular discussion is limited to the names of those who actually reigned (i.e. the Kings and Queen Regnants). Later, we can try and tackle the issue of naming consorts and "lesser" royals.
Please debate your hearts out over the above formats. Later on, when it seems like we're pretty much on the same page, we can attempt to form a concensus. If no concensus is reached, then perhaps all pages should just remain at their current locations. Thanks, 青い(Aoi) 01:47, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
I believe the infamous Gryffindor (né User:Antares911), whose proposals usually are pompous and full of styles + titles, is desiring something like "His (Her) Majesty King (Queen) Christianname Hawaiianname of Hawaii", and thus I add that option above, too. 217.140.193.123 06:11, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
Please insert all discussion here. 青い(Aoi) 01:47, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
Okay, for starters, I want to give a brief background of this topic. When the articles on Hawaiian monarchs were first created, they followed the format, "X of Hawaii," e.g. Kamehameha I of Hawaii. However, in mid-2004, it was suggested on the Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles) that the "of Hawaii" part of the name be removed, and that the monarch's reigning name be used and the Christian name omitted (e.g. instead of Lydia Liliuokalani, simply Liliuokalani would suffice). The suggestion was adopted as policy with only one person opposing it. [2]
Now, some users want to change the format of the articles to make them more similar to naming conventions used in European monarchies. For example, one user wants to change the format used in Hawaiian royalty articles to the format X, King (or Queen) of Hawaii, or King (or Queen) X of Hawaii.
So far, the following suggestions have been brought up:
I would really like to see the naming convention remain the status quo, using only the common (reigning) name of the monarch. Here is my argument:
For these reasons, I would prefer to see all articles on Hawaiian monarchs remain in their current locations. At the very least, redirects could (and probably should) be created to redirect all the formats above (except maybe the one that includes "His Majesty") to their proper locations. 青い(Aoi) 09:02, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
One of the highest forms of respect is to name a person using only the pure reign name of that monarch. Such as Liliuokalani. Using such simple name implies that the person in question is well-known without any additions. (As Liliuokalani actually is.) Very rarely any person is well-known by only one name (surnames are often needed), but several are, such as Napoleon. To accord the same to Hawaiian monarchs signifies the high respect of recognizing the person in question just by her/his one name. All additions are basically cluttering the respect. Pureness is respect, clutter is disrespect. Therefore all additions (be it territorial designation such as "of Hawaii", titulary such as king or queen, a surname, or whatever) are clutter, and should be avoided if not necessary for disambiguation. I support the first alternative (Liliuokalani, Kalakaua, Kamehameha I), and I oppose all the clutter alternatives. Arrigo 09:28, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
I am for leaving the titles the way they are with redirects for the other possible names. Having King/Queen/Princess/Prince X of Hawai'i seems very awkward to me. Also having their Christian names in the title of the section also sounds strange to me. I do not see why we have to adopt the European naming system. -- Gmosaki 21:53, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
I support oprion 1; I could accept option 4, but think it unnecessary; it would also require links to be clumsy or piped. The standard for European royalty is "pre-cmptive disambiguation" but no disambiguation is necessary here. Septentrionalis 22:00, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
My feeling, as before, is to go with the full name of the person, and omit any salutation or additional words. Victoria Kauilani (I'm sure I've misspelled that) seems sufficient to disambiguate, and the content of the article should explain exactly which title she held. I see no reason to have King Foo Bar, when Foo Bar will suffice. Am I missing some other policy requesting King Foo Bar (or King Foo as the example above, or King Foo of Hawaii, which is completely redundant and silly) be used? Avriette 00:20, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
I also would support option 1 as that is the most common form generally used in Hawai‘i. However, I also could support the option of preceding with the title as that is also very often encountered. Here in the Islands, of course, no one would use "name of Hawaii". I'm unsure why this is a problem, since the article can give details and my second option could be a redirect page (or vice versa). No one is likely to search using "of Hawaii", but Queen Liliuokalani or Princess Kaiulani are real terms that would be encountered here and outside of Hawai‘i. - Marshman 04:59, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
Marshman is right that titles for these monarchs are frequently encountered, and though I still oppose such the use of titles in article titles for reigning monarchs (for the reasons I stated above, though I'd like to note that I'd be willing to support the use of titles in articles about princes and princesses, e.g. "Princess Kaiulani"), I have a large amount of respect in Marshman's opinions due to his contributions to Hawaii-related articles. Does anyone else here support the suggestion put forth by Marshman? If so, we should look into this further. Otherwise, it appears that most people who have posted on this page so far have specifically noted that they're against using titles in the article names. Plus, we could easily create redirects to the current articles. 青い(Aoi) 07:22, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
Also I think that the debate is over and the proposition below for guideline could be adopted into use. In Wikipedia, titles king and queen are not included into the article heading - so if there are no compelling reasons, it's not useful to try it here. Let's leave princesses to a separate talk (there would probably be some opposition as to titling "Princess" Ruth Keelikolani, Princess Bernice Bishop, Prince David Kawananakoa...) as also in general standards, certain other factors affect it. Arrigo 10:50, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
and another previous email from him said: "I think having a title with a country is fine ...least offensive elucidation ... Lilioukalana of Hawa'ai, that kind of thing ... "
I would concur with Mowens35. If you said that "Queen" is difficult because Hawaiian titles vary, I agree. But that's what she was most known as abroad. But in many other countries we have titles that would not really translate correctly into english, but are used anyways, like Emperor Jimmu, although tenno would not really be emperor either. And Queen Lilioukalani was known in her lifetime as just that, as a Queen of Hawaii. I don't really see an issue with adding a title and/or the country. A redirect would lead to it. Gryffindor 00:54, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Imo it is useful to define for which class of biographies the rule is intended, i.e "Hawaiian monarchs" - otherwise we soon have people who will apply it to something else, or people who contest (want to change) the policy because they imagine it applies to something else (something which is important to them). The rule should also say that the article itself should conform with standards for Wikipedia biographical articles, as I have seen too many times that some people imagine that a policy on the heading affects all the article. It's on the contrary: if and when the heading is brief, simple etc, the article itself should give all the information, including titles, what was ruled, all the names and a.k.a.s etc. Particularly the introductory paragraph is important. All that is outlined in the Wikipedia guideline for biograhies. Perhaps it would also be good to mention that style or honorific is never in the heading. About the territory, its reason in the rule should also state that there is no necessity to disambiguate on basis of country. Arrigo 23:26, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Formulating a MoS provision: As it seems to me that option 1 receives the overwhelming majority, at least a rough consensus, I already start formulating the resolution:
"Articles of Monarchs of Hawaiian Kingdom have the monarch's Hawaiian reign name as the heading, and the ordinal if necessary for disambiguation. For example, Kamehameha IV, Liliuokalani. The possible christened name is not to be included into the heading, and not any other non-reign name. The titulary (Queen, King) is not used in the heading, nor any style or honorific. The territorial designation ("of Hawaii") is not to be used in the heading since there is no necessity to disambiguate on basis of country. The text of the article follow standards and guidelines for WP biographical articles." 217.140.193.123 22:22, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
Aloha all - I've put a conceptual first stub draft of the MoS up...I sort of envision it looking somewhat like the AP Stylebook, which shows terms, how they should be spelled, and further explanatory notes on usage and background. Any feedback would be appreciated. Mahalo! -- KeithH 10:17, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
The user in question feels that we should use "as short a name as possible", whenever possible. That would make Peahi, Hawaii just Peahi. Any comments on this? Please note the other examples listed in the diff, including Kihei and Paia, and so on. ... aa: talk 19:12, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
The Geographic Names Information System (GNIS) might be a good tool to check for the right spelling. Especially watch the section Board on Geographic Names Decisions for the preferred spelling. Like in the U.S. Geological Survey Geographic Names Information System: Feature ID 364685 the most recent decision refers to the spelling with ʻokina and de:Kahakō (an English article is still missing). See also Hawaiian Dictionaries which includes Place names. --ThT 07:29, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Done. As for titles, WP:NAME is clear that okinas should be avoided in titles, and while it's ambiguous about other diacritics, if we're going to comply with that then we need to be consistent and leave out kahakō as well. KarlM ( talk) 18:28, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the words "where appropriate" mean in the following sentence. "Where appropriate, use of the kahakō and ʻokina is preferred in Hawaiian words and names used in articles dealing with Hawaiʻi." Does it simply mean to use the diacritical marks in words that are written with them and not in words that do not employ them?
In my last edit, I attempted to reorganize and clarify the project page. I did not intend to change the guidance; if I did do so, it was inadvertent. Walter Siegmund (talk) 18:02, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Is this page ready to be added to the "Wikipedia style guidelines" cat? The current thinking on style guidelines is: anyone can create them, and they're as official as they need to be, until and unless we have reason to believe they're not. So, another way to ask the question is: does anyone know of a reason why this shouldn't be in the style guidelines category? - Dan Dank55 ( talk)( mistakes) 20:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Can you give me an idea how many English works that Wikipedia considers reliable sources have been written using okinas? And even better would be if these sources use words commonly known by Hawaiians but not by mainlanders, because that would help to establish this writing style as a variety of English. - Dan Dank55 ( talk)( mistakes) 01:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Okay. All I'm trying to do here is come up arguments that generally work when your article is getting reviewed; what you guys want to do with this is up to you. "The Hawaiian language is obviously not widely used conversationally, but where it is (such as in language courses and Hawaiian immersion schools), the ʻokina and kahakō are invariably used." I think that argument easily wins. What I was worried about was the possibility that there was a thriving written language that omitted the diacritics; that would have presented a problem. It's not enough to say that people might get the pronunciation wrong if the two diacritics are omitted, because lots of languages, including and especially English, have strange pronunciations and weirdly spelled words that would be a lot easier to pronounce if they had diacritics. So: for just about every word I've seen written with the ʻokina (including ʻokina!), feel free to include the diacritics if they're written that way. For those few Hawaiian words that actually show up at http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary (which is the most commonly used link by American journalists these days to figure out whether a word is in the language or not), such as Hawaii, Lanai and ukulele, please omit the ʻokina, except that it's perfectly okay...in fact a good idea...to show the spelling with the ʻokina and explain the pronunciation, and explain that that's the way people always say and often write the word in Hawaii, just as it's done in the last paragraph of the lead section of Hawaii. You could do the same at ukulele if you like. For an article that isn't about ukuleles, but in which the word "ukulele" appears once, you wouldn't usually want to stop the narrative to explain what an okina is...it would interrupt the "flow"...but if an article has a more "leisurely" pace, or if the subject of the article is tied to Hawaii in some way, then I would have no problem at all with inserting something like "(written ʻukulele in Hawaiian)" at the first occurrence of the word "ukulele". - Dan Dank55 ( talk)( mistakes) 18:02, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I am confused. It looked to me like the consensus was to use the ʻokina (and kahako?) in the text of the aticle, but not the name. Was that correct? I see a bunch of discussion about a year ago, then not much. I have been putting them in, but user User:Nyttend has been taking them out. I would volunteer to clarify in the MOS, but wonder if there has been a change in policy to no longer use them in the text? Every scholarly source I know of in the last thirty years or so uses them. My particular issue is with the place names, since government databases do not use them as noted in the discussion, but also as noted they often also omit punctuation, and even upper/lower case letters. The other database is the National Register of Historic Places, which sometimes uses appostrophes but usually omits them. Are the "CDP" articles covered under this manual of style or another?
The other issue perhaps not discussed yet is that the sources before mid-twentieth century use the dash convention, e.g. ke-ala-ke-kua instead of kealakekua, etc. and a few of the ancient person names seem to use than convention from the old sources, or a mixture of styles. W Nowicki ( talk) 21:08, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
OK, then what can we do to stop people from taking out the ʻokinas that we carefully put in? Is there some more formal step to elevate this style guide to an official one, instead of saying it is "proposed"? For what it is worth, here are my thoughts:
ʻokina and kahakō are used in almost all the scholarly literature written in the last 25 years or so, in my experience. As noted above, the kahakō is used in less of the encyclopedic-quality sources outside the islands, and conventoins vary greatly for web sites and guidebooks, but even they are often using them. I think a good guideline is if the word would appear in a reasonable English dictionary, including "Hawaii" itself and perhaps the major islands. My convention is to spell as Hawaiʻi only in the context of the Big Island, the Kingdom, or ancient times. Certainly when anglicizing a word by putting English endings on it, e.g. "Hawaiian" is another good indication that an okina is not needed.
All my articles are creating without neither ʻokina nor kahakō in the titles, but with them in the article text. This means that links to them are always piped, but that needs to be done anyway if we are to use the template. One reason is that most people are lazy typists, and will generally do searches without the marks. Of course redirect pages need to be used often, in case people do stuff in the characters, but imagine that is less common. This puts a burden on the writer of the article (typing all those piped links), but if we are doing our job, articles are only written once but read many times, so a little extra work in the authoring process to have a more acurate article makes sense. It also means the title of the article will not match exactly what is embolded in the first line, but seems a reasonable compromise.
For words (particularly place names) that are not English at all, e.g. Honokaʻa or Kapaʻau, should use the marks anywhere they are mentioned in the article. Spelling as "Honokaa" and "Kapaau" is not "spelling them in English", it is spelling them with a consonant missing. Just because some old government databases have llimitations that spell that way, is not a good reason to use them in encyclopedic writing. For example, we live on Aliʻi Drive, which the post office writes as ALII DR, no puctuation at all even for abbeviations, all upper case. They still deliver if it is fully spelled out.
For NRHP listings, evidently the name in the infobox must match exactly the database (or that just someone's taste?). Unfortunately they are inconsistent, with some using single quote, but most eliding the ʻokina. The real question is the CDPs. We might need to split them, and have an article, say, on "Honkaa CDP" for the census data and another on the historical community that complies with this manual of style. That would be a shame, since I would prefer to have fewer high-quality articles than zillions of stubs. But would that be the only solution that makes some happy?
The more I look into this, it seems the precendents are for articles on places in France and Spain to use accents, and even the Irish policy, would all apply. The burden of argument should be for the ones who eliminate the marks to show why they want an exception for Hawaii. Otherwise this could be considered subtle racism: Hawaiian words deserve the same respect as European languages.
Please let us move this forward. Mahalo. W Nowicki ( talk) 02:52, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
And actually, the example of "Hawaiʻian" I am not sure if it was meant to be, but should be "Hawaiian" as per the guide. If you are adding English-like endings to a word, you are admitting it is now an English word, so would drop the ʻokina. Similarly adding "S" for plural, or 's for posessive. W Nowicki ( talk) 19:05, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Yet again: User:Nyttend has backed out the ʻokinas from the Honokaa, Hawaii article. This is the third time he did this without giving any reason in the talk page. Does this mean we can officially call it an edit war and start the mediation process? W Nowicki ( talk) 22:55, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
The separate CDP article for every community that has an ʻokina has been proposed, but would be ugly and not likey any other encyclopedia that I know of. Besides, my guess is that he would immediately move the CDP back to Honokaa, Hawaii so we would have to create an article with a title like "Honokaa, the community, Hawaii" which would be unlikely to be found easily. As a reader certainly I would prefer a single article that describes both the census data, as well as history and other notable aspects of that place. How about this policy: use the CDP spelling in the infobox and article title, and a line in the lead like: "Honokaa, Hawaii is a census-designated place (CDP) in the Hamakua District of Hawaii County, Hawaii, United States, including the community of Honokaʻa." Or perhaps "Honokaʻa is a community in the Hamakua District of Hawaii County, Hawaii, United States, designated as the census-designated place (CDP) Honokaa, Hawaii." Or "...corresponding to the CDP" "CDP named for the community of..." or "...community within the CDP..." Then I would propose using the ʻokina in the body consistently, but would be open to using the strict CDP name for the census data to make it clear which is which, if allowed to use the modern orthography for the historical information in the body. This would be fairly consistent with the NRHP policy. Does anyone know if the 2010 census will use the modern names that the GNIS uses? If I have time I will be bold and edit the style guide with my proposal unless there are objections. W Nowicki ( talk) 03:29, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Actually, look at your example: The article Honaunau-Napoopoo, Hawaii has no ʻokina nor kahakō in the entire article body. The issue is that attempts to use modern orthography in compliance with these guidelines in CDP articles have been backed out by Nyttend. So perhaps we need to make sure we have consensus and then go to mediation. There are a bunch of articles now that just have CDP data in them that I would like to augment with more info. A remaining question is what wording to use in the leads. I would be inclined to call them a "community in the CDP" since that term is more amorphous than " town" or " village" which can have legal standing in other states. Although community might be a bit too amorphous. Or maybe "CDP named for ..."? Or use the official term " populated place" since that what GNIS calls them. Thanks for any feedback. See also recent edits to the Wikipedia:WikiProject Hawaii/Manual of Style itself. W Nowicki ( talk) 02:14, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Answering my question about the policy regarding the GNIS the U.S. Census Bureau (Geography Division) answered:
-- ThT ( talk) 00:03, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
That is great to hear, thanks for clarifying this. Although we still do not know exactly what the 2010 CDP names will be, I can try to summarize this in the guide. With any luck, the state officials will use the University of Hawaii place names database too. Any guess as to how long it would be until we get the list of names (maybe before the actual counts)? In the meanwhile I can work on other articles besides Hawaiian CDPs to avoid edit wars. Aloha. W Nowicki ( talk) 16:22, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
I noticed that many Hawaii articles have the European-style date format of "day Month year". I know this is what perhaps a majority of the world uses, and they are allowed by the general date style guideline, but like it or not, the "month day, year" style is used almost exclusively wthin Hawaii, and with most sources I have seen (published in the islands or the mainland). So I would propose recommending to use the "month day, year" style, but avoid mass changing. Any comments? W Nowicki ( talk) 18:34, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
There is currently an ongoing discussion about the future of this and others MoS naming style. Please consider the issues raised in the discussion and vote if you wish GnevinAWB ( talk) 21:03, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
It has been proposed this MOS be moved to Wikipedia:Subject style guide . Please comment at the RFC GnevinAWB ( talk) 20:54, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Editors may be interested in this RFC, along with the discussion of its implementation:
Should all subsidiary pages of the Manual of Style be made subpages of WP:MOS?
It's big; and it promises huge improvements. Great if everyone can be involved. Noetica Tea? 00:38, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
Since the MOS states that the title of the article should not include diacritical marks, ( MOS:HAWAII#Article_titles), should we suggest a massive article move to an admin? See Ewa Beach and Kapaa as a few of the many examples. -- Travis Thurston+ 19:20, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
"If the ʻokina is used, it is recommended that editors use the {{okina}} template rather than the apostrophe, or "left single quote" character. Please see the following sections for more guidance on a few special cases or specific topics." - This should be updated. There is an ʻokina character (this ʻ) already that people can copy and paste in place of the template and saves more page space and makes the text more readable. The result for the reader is all the same but the difference is seeing Hawai{{okina}}i or Hawaiʻi when editing.-- KAVEBEAR ( talk) 22:57, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
I want ask another question to TParis, Viriditas. Should the apostrophe be used in place of the okina? It's not specifically outlawed in the rules of the this wikiproject. But I argue we shouldn't in respect of the Hawaiian language.-- KAVEBEAR ( talk) 23:05, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
This project still has this Template:nothaweng. One great thing this Wikiproject was doing before was maintaining the correct Hawaiian orthography in strictly Hawaiian cultural terms (the umbrella of subject you are speaking of) in defense of the works of linguists such as Mary Kawena Pukui and other academic of the second Hawaiian Renaissance in line with the practice of the modern Hawaiian language and in respect of its mission to be accurate. Excuse my interpretations/exaggeration (you can call it that but I won't) here if you disagree. It is not a leap in my opinion whatever my opinion is worth. Most of my arguments up to this point are not about policies because I could care less about policies. I am not Wikipedia editor. I am a person who edits on Wikipedia.-- KAVEBEAR ( talk) 23:46, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
An apostrophe is not a part of the standard, traditional, Hawaiian orthography. Apostrophe's should never take the place of an ʻokina in article titles or in the body of the article with words from the Hawaiian language. Unless used as apart of a formal spelling, apostrophes should be replaced with the ʻokina character (ʻ).
-- Mark Miller ( talk) 00:19, 26 June 2014 (UTC)It is strongly urged that article titles using Hawaiian language words, use the standard, Hawaiian orthography. The ʻokina is used on Wikipedia whenever an apostrophe is used in sources. Use of the macron is part of Hawaiian orthography and is preferred over non use, even when the subject is not referred to as such in a majority of reliable sources.
I am separating this as a subsection to avoid any confusion as we discuss the other topic above...One question or issue that seems to have been buried in this long discussion about the apostrophe and that I feel we haven't been fully addressed. Should we use improper or partial orthography in the title and the body of a article which in all orthographical correctness should utilize? Articles which uses no marks at all like Luau or Kau, Hawaii is okay. I don't oppose not using orthographical marks. I am only against partial use.-- KAVEBEAR ( talk) 01:57, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
Restating the above so people can support or reject. Before voting, please review/correct the wording/intent to make sure it reflects the discussion. Of course, feel free to add your own alternatives as you like. Lfstevens ( talk) 03:11, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
&...;
character entity) that uses the same glyph. This is a general Wikipedia practice, and nothing to do with this language in particular.Partial support (needs some clarification): #3 is too vague and overbroad, but has merit if corrected. We should not impose the marks on words that have been absorbed into general English usage, when used outside the context of native Hawaiʻian culture, including in Hawaiian–American popular culture; but this has nothing to do with which article it's in, but rather the content context, anywhere. It might be a linguistic article about a feature of language found in 20 different languages, for example, or an article on pottery in 20 different cultures. The same word in a Hawaii-related article may have a native-culture meaning and a Western-industrialized-culture meaning (as is the case with a certain piece of sports equipment, I gather, but I'm no expert on that). In non-native contexts, of course use the correct orthography when giving the Hawaiʻian-language "translation", as KAVEBEAR notes below.
#4: Same story as both #2, #9, and #3; it's effectively moot if we go with #1, when it comes to native-culture context (use the marks), or Westernized context (don't use), but it's an unworkable requirement in a mixed context. When the words are used in their native sense, they are foreign words (and should be italicized as such and marked up with {{
lang|haw}}
at first usage in an article), but in their non-native sense they are English-language words of Hawaiʻian-language origin. (I don't want to get into a debate about usage in linguistics, in which I have a minor degree; WP has gone with COMMONNAME obsessiveness and put the article at
Hawaiian language, even though serious linguists would probably prefer to use the
native endonymic form). While I wouldn't change the spelling in an article, MOS/AT doesn't dictate how I write my talk page posts. >;-) The main message on both these "partial" points and #9 above is that the "be consistent within an article" practice cannot be abused to force "consistency" between two related but actually different things. It's simply wrong to refer to "the state of Hawaiʻi" in English, but equally wrong to drop the ʻokina, in the same article, from where it belongs when referring to Hawaiʻin-language terms in the context of native Hawaiʻian culture.
On #5 we also need to have some guidance when an article's title differs from the text usage. Should we be consistent with the article's title, or with the orthography? Are there exceptions?-- Mark Miller ( talk) 17:44, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
This section of the MOS states that "...articles that have not used the diacritics in the title, will list the native language spelling as an alternative, alongside the title spelling in the lede and then repeat the alternative spelling consistently throughout the running text in the body of the article." What is the rationale for having one spelling for the article title and another in the article text? See Hawaii County, Hawaii for an example of this in practice. — AjaxSmack 20:23, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
It appears that both Hawaii County, Hawaii [1] [2] [3] and Kauai County, Hawaii [4] [5] [6] have formally amended their county charters to add the ʻokina to their respective corporate names in the past decade. I understand that there has already been extensive discussion about geographic names; however, both of these charter amendments were voted on after most of the discussion took place. Both county articles often use the ʻokina within the body of the article in the counties' names, but not in the article titles themselves. It does look like there are redirects from Hawaiʻi County, Hawaii and Kauaʻi County, Hawaii. Should the articles be switched so that the ones with the ʻokina are the lead articles, and the ones without are redirects, in order to conform with the formal corporate names of the counties? Mac3387 ( talk) 02:52, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
References
@ Francis Schonken: KAVEBEAR ( talk) 16:43, 25 November 2019 (UTC) “The word "Hawaii" appears in most English dictionaries, so either spelling can be appropropriate. The modern US State is usually just "Hawaii". The ʻokina is often used when talking about the ancient culture, Kingdom of Hawaiʻi, or the island of Hawaiʻi in the body of the article.”
It’s not that hard and has been the official usage for a while. The recent edits removes the reference to the section entirely. The official name of the entity is the State of Hawaii while Hawaii can be used to refer to the cultural region. KAVEBEAR ( talk) 16:36, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
I wanted to ask if Wikipedia: Manual of Style/Hawaii-related articles could include a section on using the article "an" before the word "ukulele", at least for Hawaii-related articles? Otherwise, we have these situations where bots come in and change everything to "a ukulele" even where it seems highly inappropriate. Cielquiparle ( talk) 13:04, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
There's some very good, in-depth, ongoing discussion at Talk:2023 Hawaii wildfires § Use of Hawaiian symbols in names that I hope will lead to some wiki-wide changes & policies being updated, which are overdue and sorely needed – especially given that this MOS doesn't seem like it's often followed, unfortunately, or that many people are aware of it in the first place! Anyone watching this talk page would probably be interested in reading through the conversation that's happening and/or getting involved. – Fpmfpm ( talk) 13:44, 17 August 2023 (UTC)