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I would like to express my concern that this template is being used to the detriment of some editors - and to the delight of others. I feel that we should not be editing the placement of the TOC because a) being at the top of the page not good. From a style perspective, it is best to place an image on the right hand side of the page. Have a look at any advertisment - this is standard practice. Having the TOC on the right-hand side of the page at the very top of the lead section is, to put it bluntly, awful. Firstly, it goes some way to negating the lead section (it becomes less clear that it is a lead section, and besides which the TOC does not list the lead section anyway!). Further, one of our great advantages is to do with consistency. Applying this template to, say Windows 2000 would not be acceptable because it would kill off the infobox. This leads me to a further point: when does the template get used? Always at the top of the article? Under the last section (an extreme point, but must be raised)? What happens if someone makes a change to the template and adds _NOTOC_? That will effect all the pages that use it. Also - if we start applying it to every page, won't this cause a performance issue for Wikipedia? This may or may not be a valid point.
I would also like to express concern that people are trying to enforce a change to the default layout of Wikipedia without gaining consensus (I certainly was never told about this, and only noticed it when it was applied to W. Mark Felt - something I changed because as a reasonably major editor of that page - I sorted out the footnotes - I was never informed about such a radical layout change). If we are going to change the layout, then it should be done via CSS on the main monobook stylesheet - I doubt that consensus to change this would be gained, however. Put simply: if some editors dislike the TOC being on the left hand side underneath the lead section then they should modify their personal style sheet.
I would like to see something hashed out of this page that addresses this issue. Soemthing about changing default elements such as the TOC. - Ta bu shi da yu 5 July 2005 02:36 (UTC)
Defaults are precisely that, defaults. they are what we get when we don't make changes. Editign tools are there to be used. if we souldn't ever change the TOC placement, then the software should not provide this ability.
Your argument that this should be changed by individuals in their personal CSS, or that it should be done by the default VSS stylesheet I think is invalid. It shouldn't be done in the main stylesheet because this isn't intended to be a change to the derfault, it is intended to be a formatting change to particualr articles. It shouldn't be done in indiviuduals own personal CSS because it is intended for all readers of a particualr articel, and because many of the readers for whom it is intended neither know how to, nor care to, make such adjustments, particularly on an article by article basis.
That said, this is a mater of style, and there should, IMO, by a style guideline on when and how to use Template:TOCright and Template:TOCleft. For example, placement of them so that the TOC crosses a section boundry is probably a poor idea. Template:TOCleft doesn't look well when the adjacent text is part of a bulleted list. More generally, these tempaltes are probably betr used when the TYOC is long but not wide, and probably better used after the lead section or at least a lead paragraph, in most cases.
I think this should be discussed here, we should come to a consensus if possibl;e, and a proper MOS section should be writtne on non-default TOC placement: when and how to do it. DES 5 July 2005 16:47 (UTC)
A suggestion: Considering how long the discussion currently is at WP:TFD, and how long this discussion has grown already, it is probably best to copy both discussions to a separate Wikipedia article. Especially since this discussion will presumably end up setting some Wikipedia policy on the issue, that just another reason to have this discussion on a separate page.
My personal opinion on the issue is that I HATE the large amount of white space that results from long, narrow TOCs. I really don't care if the TOC ends up on the left or right, just as long as there is some way to "float" the TOC, either through the use of templates or through changes in the software. (If the WikiMedia software was changed, it would also be nice to be able to control the display of the levels of section in the TOC, so you could say only display the first and second levels—sure there are ways to fake that, but that's such a kludge). BlankVerse ∅ 5 July 2005 22:05 (UTC)
Initially I was against it, but saw some good examples of its use. I really think that it should be a last resort, and mainly only used for long lists with large TOCs. violet/riga (t) 5 July 2005 23:48 (UTC)
Let us leave the technical question of exactly how to properly implement this template, and return to the style questions: when and how to use it. Do most here agree that it is a good idea on some articles, and a bad idea on others? That it should not become the default style on all or almost all articles, but neither should it be banned? That it works particularly well on lists? That it tends to be a good idea on articles with a long, relatively narrow TOC, and a poor one on articles whose TOC is short, wide, or both? How about location? Should this template usually be used to float the TOC after the lead section, or at elast after the inital paragraph? And please note that the parallel template Template:TOCleft] is intended to work, and be used, in exactly the same way, except with the TOC on the left. When should this be sued? when there is an image on the upper right?
Both templates look better, i think, when they do not cross a section boundry, but that is often not possible.
Do people agree that there should be a MOS entry or section on thsi issue?
Coments on these style issues, please? DES 6 July 2005 17:26 (UTC)
First off, I agree that this discussion has gotten to the point where a MoS guideline has to be established. But before any debate starts ocurring, we should have at least a knowledge of what we agree on.
I agree with DES that there is a need to have these templates, and that they shouldn't be the default for Wiki's TOCs, and in my opinion, that they should be restricted to pages with images and lists (I'm flexible on this one).
If any changes are going to be made to the TOCs, I believe we all concur that they should be floated to maintain good aesthetics. So, a MoS requirement for the use of Template:TOCleft and Template:TOCright should be that they are implemented in a way that minimizes annoying whitespace. Are we all OK on that?
Now, let's start with the details... how about the templates not exceeding ~ 30% of the viewer's screen (not including the navigation sidebar) if they are used? If they exceed that, then the TOC is too wide and the default should be used. Comments are requested and encouraged. -- Titoxd 7 July 2005 03:01 (UTC)
I agree that non-default TOCs should normally be flaoted, and in any case I think this discussion is limited to floating TOCs. I wouldn't state absolutely that there is never a place for a non-standard, non-floating TOC, but I haven't seen one yet. I agree that the 30% width rule (I assume you meant that to apply to width, not height) is a good rule of thumb, but a user with a particularly large font size or low resolution or both may find that a TOC that occupies well under 30% for most viewers, takes up more in his or her particular case. The rule must say soemthing about an average or likely viewer, or somehow handle this case, I think. DES 7 July 2005 21:07 (UTC)
I think that Space opera in Scientology doctrine looks good with your addition, nd this is an example where an article without an image nonethelsess is improved by flaoting the TOC. DES 7 July 2005 21:07 (UTC)
As 30% varies according to user settings, perhaps a comparison to more stable examples would help. How about comparing to the Wikipedia left-side navigation column, the width of top-of-page tabs, or the end of the "Edit summary" input field? ( SEWilco 06:35, 10 July 2005 (UTC))
Taking into account some of the issues that
Mike brought from the discussion at the Section MoS, I'm submitting a draft proposal for an addition to that MoS. Please be free to put any comments, objections, or support below:
Titoxd 22:31, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
This proposal was accepted (7 support/1 oppose). -- Titoxd 20:34, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
The table of contents (TOC) can, in some instances, be floated either right or left using {{TOCright}} or {{TOCleft}}. Before changing the default TOC to a floated TOC, consider the following guidelines:
This discussion is now a month old. Does anyone object to closing the vote a week from now (and posting the proposal in the MoS and archiving this discussion if it passes)? -- Titoxd 22:42, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I think it might be worthwhile mentioning that the TOC should not be too long under any circumstances. Some articles have an overly long TOC and it should be cut down rather than simply floated. It might be good to have a more general discussion of the introductory layout, perhaps mentioning the use of an image to fill in some of the whitespace and advising people to check that the layout still works when the TOC is hidden. violet/riga (t) 00:01, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
I wish to alert others who have been involved in the discussions to Wetman ( talk · contribs) who is currently unilatterally adding {{ TOCright}} to articles on which it is quite clearly not justified, and where its use goes against the majority feeling of those in the VfD discussion and subsequent discussions. I unfortunately don't have time to deal with it myself, but have asked the user to stop. Joe D (t) 21:38, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
I came here from Titoxd's link on Village Pump and I am lost as to what you want to vote on. Is "left toc" the current article default and you want to make it "right toc" instead?? -- Sitearm | Talk 17:03, 2005 August 5 (UTC)
The default is thst the TOC appears after the lead section, and before all other sections, left aligned, with whitespace to the right of it. By using {{ TOCleft}} or {{ TOCright}} is is possible to have a "floating" ToC, where the article text wraps arround a left-aligned or right-aligned TOC. We are hoping to develoip consensus for an MoS entry on when and how to use, and when not to use, these templates. DES (talk) 17:16, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
This discussion is now a month old. Does anyone object to closing the vote a week from now (and posting the proposal in the MoS and archiving this discussion if it passes)? -- Titoxd 22:42, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 |
I would like to express my concern that this template is being used to the detriment of some editors - and to the delight of others. I feel that we should not be editing the placement of the TOC because a) being at the top of the page not good. From a style perspective, it is best to place an image on the right hand side of the page. Have a look at any advertisment - this is standard practice. Having the TOC on the right-hand side of the page at the very top of the lead section is, to put it bluntly, awful. Firstly, it goes some way to negating the lead section (it becomes less clear that it is a lead section, and besides which the TOC does not list the lead section anyway!). Further, one of our great advantages is to do with consistency. Applying this template to, say Windows 2000 would not be acceptable because it would kill off the infobox. This leads me to a further point: when does the template get used? Always at the top of the article? Under the last section (an extreme point, but must be raised)? What happens if someone makes a change to the template and adds _NOTOC_? That will effect all the pages that use it. Also - if we start applying it to every page, won't this cause a performance issue for Wikipedia? This may or may not be a valid point.
I would also like to express concern that people are trying to enforce a change to the default layout of Wikipedia without gaining consensus (I certainly was never told about this, and only noticed it when it was applied to W. Mark Felt - something I changed because as a reasonably major editor of that page - I sorted out the footnotes - I was never informed about such a radical layout change). If we are going to change the layout, then it should be done via CSS on the main monobook stylesheet - I doubt that consensus to change this would be gained, however. Put simply: if some editors dislike the TOC being on the left hand side underneath the lead section then they should modify their personal style sheet.
I would like to see something hashed out of this page that addresses this issue. Soemthing about changing default elements such as the TOC. - Ta bu shi da yu 5 July 2005 02:36 (UTC)
Defaults are precisely that, defaults. they are what we get when we don't make changes. Editign tools are there to be used. if we souldn't ever change the TOC placement, then the software should not provide this ability.
Your argument that this should be changed by individuals in their personal CSS, or that it should be done by the default VSS stylesheet I think is invalid. It shouldn't be done in the main stylesheet because this isn't intended to be a change to the derfault, it is intended to be a formatting change to particualr articles. It shouldn't be done in indiviuduals own personal CSS because it is intended for all readers of a particualr articel, and because many of the readers for whom it is intended neither know how to, nor care to, make such adjustments, particularly on an article by article basis.
That said, this is a mater of style, and there should, IMO, by a style guideline on when and how to use Template:TOCright and Template:TOCleft. For example, placement of them so that the TOC crosses a section boundry is probably a poor idea. Template:TOCleft doesn't look well when the adjacent text is part of a bulleted list. More generally, these tempaltes are probably betr used when the TYOC is long but not wide, and probably better used after the lead section or at least a lead paragraph, in most cases.
I think this should be discussed here, we should come to a consensus if possibl;e, and a proper MOS section should be writtne on non-default TOC placement: when and how to do it. DES 5 July 2005 16:47 (UTC)
A suggestion: Considering how long the discussion currently is at WP:TFD, and how long this discussion has grown already, it is probably best to copy both discussions to a separate Wikipedia article. Especially since this discussion will presumably end up setting some Wikipedia policy on the issue, that just another reason to have this discussion on a separate page.
My personal opinion on the issue is that I HATE the large amount of white space that results from long, narrow TOCs. I really don't care if the TOC ends up on the left or right, just as long as there is some way to "float" the TOC, either through the use of templates or through changes in the software. (If the WikiMedia software was changed, it would also be nice to be able to control the display of the levels of section in the TOC, so you could say only display the first and second levels—sure there are ways to fake that, but that's such a kludge). BlankVerse ∅ 5 July 2005 22:05 (UTC)
Initially I was against it, but saw some good examples of its use. I really think that it should be a last resort, and mainly only used for long lists with large TOCs. violet/riga (t) 5 July 2005 23:48 (UTC)
Let us leave the technical question of exactly how to properly implement this template, and return to the style questions: when and how to use it. Do most here agree that it is a good idea on some articles, and a bad idea on others? That it should not become the default style on all or almost all articles, but neither should it be banned? That it works particularly well on lists? That it tends to be a good idea on articles with a long, relatively narrow TOC, and a poor one on articles whose TOC is short, wide, or both? How about location? Should this template usually be used to float the TOC after the lead section, or at elast after the inital paragraph? And please note that the parallel template Template:TOCleft] is intended to work, and be used, in exactly the same way, except with the TOC on the left. When should this be sued? when there is an image on the upper right?
Both templates look better, i think, when they do not cross a section boundry, but that is often not possible.
Do people agree that there should be a MOS entry or section on thsi issue?
Coments on these style issues, please? DES 6 July 2005 17:26 (UTC)
First off, I agree that this discussion has gotten to the point where a MoS guideline has to be established. But before any debate starts ocurring, we should have at least a knowledge of what we agree on.
I agree with DES that there is a need to have these templates, and that they shouldn't be the default for Wiki's TOCs, and in my opinion, that they should be restricted to pages with images and lists (I'm flexible on this one).
If any changes are going to be made to the TOCs, I believe we all concur that they should be floated to maintain good aesthetics. So, a MoS requirement for the use of Template:TOCleft and Template:TOCright should be that they are implemented in a way that minimizes annoying whitespace. Are we all OK on that?
Now, let's start with the details... how about the templates not exceeding ~ 30% of the viewer's screen (not including the navigation sidebar) if they are used? If they exceed that, then the TOC is too wide and the default should be used. Comments are requested and encouraged. -- Titoxd 7 July 2005 03:01 (UTC)
I agree that non-default TOCs should normally be flaoted, and in any case I think this discussion is limited to floating TOCs. I wouldn't state absolutely that there is never a place for a non-standard, non-floating TOC, but I haven't seen one yet. I agree that the 30% width rule (I assume you meant that to apply to width, not height) is a good rule of thumb, but a user with a particularly large font size or low resolution or both may find that a TOC that occupies well under 30% for most viewers, takes up more in his or her particular case. The rule must say soemthing about an average or likely viewer, or somehow handle this case, I think. DES 7 July 2005 21:07 (UTC)
I think that Space opera in Scientology doctrine looks good with your addition, nd this is an example where an article without an image nonethelsess is improved by flaoting the TOC. DES 7 July 2005 21:07 (UTC)
As 30% varies according to user settings, perhaps a comparison to more stable examples would help. How about comparing to the Wikipedia left-side navigation column, the width of top-of-page tabs, or the end of the "Edit summary" input field? ( SEWilco 06:35, 10 July 2005 (UTC))
Taking into account some of the issues that
Mike brought from the discussion at the Section MoS, I'm submitting a draft proposal for an addition to that MoS. Please be free to put any comments, objections, or support below:
Titoxd 22:31, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
This proposal was accepted (7 support/1 oppose). -- Titoxd 20:34, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
The table of contents (TOC) can, in some instances, be floated either right or left using {{TOCright}} or {{TOCleft}}. Before changing the default TOC to a floated TOC, consider the following guidelines:
This discussion is now a month old. Does anyone object to closing the vote a week from now (and posting the proposal in the MoS and archiving this discussion if it passes)? -- Titoxd 22:42, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I think it might be worthwhile mentioning that the TOC should not be too long under any circumstances. Some articles have an overly long TOC and it should be cut down rather than simply floated. It might be good to have a more general discussion of the introductory layout, perhaps mentioning the use of an image to fill in some of the whitespace and advising people to check that the layout still works when the TOC is hidden. violet/riga (t) 00:01, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
I wish to alert others who have been involved in the discussions to Wetman ( talk · contribs) who is currently unilatterally adding {{ TOCright}} to articles on which it is quite clearly not justified, and where its use goes against the majority feeling of those in the VfD discussion and subsequent discussions. I unfortunately don't have time to deal with it myself, but have asked the user to stop. Joe D (t) 21:38, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
I came here from Titoxd's link on Village Pump and I am lost as to what you want to vote on. Is "left toc" the current article default and you want to make it "right toc" instead?? -- Sitearm | Talk 17:03, 2005 August 5 (UTC)
The default is thst the TOC appears after the lead section, and before all other sections, left aligned, with whitespace to the right of it. By using {{ TOCleft}} or {{ TOCright}} is is possible to have a "floating" ToC, where the article text wraps arround a left-aligned or right-aligned TOC. We are hoping to develoip consensus for an MoS entry on when and how to use, and when not to use, these templates. DES (talk) 17:16, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
This discussion is now a month old. Does anyone object to closing the vote a week from now (and posting the proposal in the MoS and archiving this discussion if it passes)? -- Titoxd 22:42, 5 August 2005 (UTC)