FAC Nominator User:Durova
Stats excerpted as of 9 December, 2021, SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 02:44, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 03:55, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
Please set up separate sections for each nomination.
I nominate User:Wtfiv for a Featured article save award for their herculean efforts over a year to completely rewrite Joan of Arc to FA standards. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 14:29, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
I nominate User:John for a Featured article save award for contributions towards saving the bronze star at Joan of Arc. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 14:29, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
Hchc2009 as I do my review, I am (slowly) trying to address your concerns as I go (I will get to the statements that need time context as I come to them). I haven't started yet on text. For now, I have attempted some work to address the image caption issues you raised. But image work is not my forté, and I've avoided them like the plague for my entire WikiCareer; could you have a look at the image captions now and let me know if the job is done, and if not, what else is needed? I have tried to standardize to the name or type of art, followed in parentheses by the date and where it is located. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 01:17, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
Aza24 your change had the statues/horses marching off the page; images should face the page or text. I'm not a believer in a strict left to right balance, but images facing off the screen are very distracting! Bst, SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 04:56, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Sandy I found this image of the coronation, checking the source and cropping. A bit melodramatic, but it keeps with the theme of 19th-20th century French national images of Joan that the article is now tending toward. Should we use it (or the cropped version) in place of the paired 15th century images? Or are the 15th century images fine? Wtfiv ( talk) 19:01, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
Looking at the images currently in the article...
Wtfiv wrote below: I'm thinking we could delete the alternate history legacy altogether. We could create a "See also" section and link there. The only problem is that the "alternate history" was heavily edited by sockpuppet accounts. Maybe we should just leave it out altogether? I feel somewhat the same about the relics section. The information is good for those interested, but does it go here?
Joan of Arc has become a semi-legendary figure... ugh ... can we find a better word than "semi-legendary"? Feels like almost pregnant; either you're a legend or you're not. The cited source gives me no other leads, but perhaps others do. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 01:15, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
Legacy is a mess, and will take a lot of thought to fix. Also, it is the legacy mess that is making the lead problematic. I will start fresh on a new day. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 02:48, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
The readable prose of this version is only 7,100 words; we have room to add prose.
This is an example of where I believe the reader is forced to stumble over too many footnotes:
I believe this, as an example, is solveable by moving some of the footnoted text to article content. See J. K. Rowling.
So, in these edits, I've removed two footnotes. Revert if you hate it; comments? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 21:02, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
Two more footnotes reduced here; this is text that is useful for the reader, and one of them hung me up on my first read-through. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 21:15, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
Done The footnotes have now been reduced in half from where they were when reviewers complained; the number of footnotes now is not unreasonable, and if a reviewer objects to them, they should state explicitly what is wrong with any give footnote. I am satisfied with the footnotes as of this version. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 00:03, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
SandyGeorgia thanks for catching the Barrett citation. I got rid of the Quicherat citations and moved them too. Because this is all good primary source material, I'd like to keep them. But I do dislike "Further Reading" sections, as they open the window for endless self-promotion. Is it reasonable to put it back into sources under the "Source Material" heading setting ref to none, or create a subsection called "General Reference" as per
WP:CITETYPE? What are your thoughts? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Wtfiv (
talk •
contribs) 7:43, August 19, 2022 (UTC)
First, I will put the map back myself on the infobox (since I removed, don't want you to have to do the work), but a) it is horrible (as it repeats what is in the other map) and b) I'll then have to juggle images to avoid the sandwich issues. Working on that next. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 23:08, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
Wtfiv wrote above: Even though the two maps are similar, they are doing different work. The first is there to make sense of the historical details in that first section and has details beyond Joan's life and doesn't mark all of Joan's notable place. But they do overlap a lot So I see your point. Suggestions?
I am now satisfied that the two Maps are useful (I had not realized before how the interactive-ness of the second map worked). SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 18:03, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
The precise date, "She arrived at the city on 29 April 1429" was apparently taken out of the lead to satisfy a reviewer? I disagree; if we know the precise date, it costs us two characters to add it, and leaving it out suggests the date is not known. And it becomes even more awkward when we get to Charles's coronation on a specific date; not parallel. I believe the precise data should go back in. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 08:29, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
I similarly disagree with removing mention of her young age (17) from the lead. But I agree that the phrasing "is considered a heroine" is just asking for trouble. We can recast the whole thing to avoid the opposition; once I work through all of this, I will put up a proposal for a new lead (rather than working on it piecemeal). SandyGeorgia ( Talk)
We don't mention in the opening paragraph (often the only thing read) that she believed her inspiration to be of divine origin, so that when we do mention that she was burned at the stake as a heretic, there is no context. I will work this in to a new proposed lead. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 08:51, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
and quickly gained prominence during the fighting
... this lead text is not well supported in the body, which does not describe her fighting.
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 09:02, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
Then, with The siege was lifted nine days after her arrival
the lead doesn't tie the lifting of the siege either to her role in that or how it was viewed as divine/evil intervention. The main importance of the Siege of Orleans isn't driven home in the lead, and we instead spend a lot more words on, "she was also in this battle, and also in that battle", which gets tedious in the middle part because we aren't given context and relevance.
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 13:56, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
In the body we establish that Joan's guilt could be used to compromise Charles's claims to legitimacy by showing that he had been consecrated by the act of a heretic
, but we don't provide this context in the lead; it's not clear to someone who reads only the lead why we mention Charles's coronation where we do. Words are limited, but is it possible to tighten words elsewhere and give more key context in the lead? The lead doesn't give us any idea that she was significant in any of the various battles and events mentioned, or why.
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 14:08, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
Wtfiv wrote above: *I'm not sure about the name section. Looking at the edit, my preference is to put it into a footnote again, as we now have more room in that regard. section looks a bit too short and choppy... I looked at the J. K. Rowling example. It is very good, but Rowling's is working out a slightly more substantive issue. I think the main role of the footnote is to ensure that the concerns of editors, which seem to recur is addressed. Discuss?
Since she is widely known as the Maid of Orléans, why not mention that in the Names section? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 08:36, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
I moved the illiterate footnote in to the Names section, but we have contradictory information that needs to be reconciled. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:50, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
The first written record of her being called Joan Darc is 1455 in the opening document of Joan's rehabilitation trial.At this point, the reader has not encountered the words rehabilitation trial; the statement has no context. Either the lead terminology should switch to that used here, or the terminology used here should switch to that used in the lead (inquisitorial court to investigate the original trial). SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 00:13, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
a councillor of Charles VII, wrote a letter to the Duke of Milan statingat this point in the article, we do not know who is the Duke of Milan (in fact, I don't think we ever mention the Duke of Milan again). We need to either say who it is, or remove mention altogether. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 00:29, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Neither Joan's mother nor the witnesses at the rehabilitation trial mention her being born on Epiphany.Similar to Name section, we are introducing a term here that has not been used defined or explained in the article at this stage (rehabilitation trial). SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 00:37, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Charles of Orléans succeeded his father as duke and was placed in the custody of his father-in-law Bernard, Count of Armagnac... whose father-in-law (Charles the son had a wife, her father? or Charles VI father-in-law)? It seems odd that one would be young enough to need custody and yet have a father-in-law. It's unclear who's who here. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 00:55, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
In 1419, the Dauphin began peace negotiations with the Duke of Burgundy, but the duke was assassinated by Armagnac partisans during a meeting with Charles that was under a truce.What was under a truce? During a truce? The single meeting was under a truce? That was held during a truce ? It's odd phrasing ... SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 01:04, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
This revived suspicions that the Dauphin was the illegitimate product of Isabeau's rumored affair with the late Duke of Orléans rather than the son of King Charles VI.We skipped over here that Charles VI disinherited the Dauphin, and it's not clear why Isabeau would disinherit her own son ... we don't want to get into too much excess detail here, but what we do state leaves one befuddled because it doesn't follow logically that she would arrange to disinherit her own son just because he was the product of an affair. The reader has to work too hard to sort this out, and go read the article on Isabeau before getting the full picture. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 01:18, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Just before Joan arrived on the scene in 1429,... we are still in the section of her birth; we haven't even gotten to her early life. Can this entire para be moved down to the next section and merged chronologically there, so we don't have to do so much going forward, going backwards? Can this entire para become the third paragraph of the early life section? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 01:28, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Is there nothing else known about her early life in general? Even a sentence would be nice. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 14:34, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
In 1425, the village's cattle were stolen by an unaligned brigand named Henri D'Orly.Why is this included? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 01:43, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Meanwhile, she was summoned to Nancy under safe conduct by Charles II, Duke of Lorraine, who was ill and thought Joan may be able to cure him.This comes out of the blue ... how had she come to the attention of the Duke? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 02:11, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
A contradiction to be sorted. In Birth and historical background, we have
But in the early life section, the text that I moved but was earlier prefaced with
So, 1422 had a dual monarchy, but 1429 had not yet achieved that? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 03:22, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Witnesses at the rehabilitation trial who were not at Joan's first meeting with Charles report hearing that he had hidden himself in the crowd among members of the court, but Joan quickly identified and approached him.
Thereafter, the dauphin commissioned plate armor for her, she received a banner of her own design, and had a sword brought for her from underneath the altar in the church at Sainte-Catherine-de-Fierbois.I can't tell what's going on here, with switches in tense etc. HE commissioned the plate armor. HE had a sword brought for her? But ... she received ... passive voice ... stuck in the middle. HE ordered a banner made for her or her own design? Or she got that some other way? Why the switch mid-sentence? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 04:17, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
But the Armagnac leadership's morale was despairingMorale despairing? I can understanding leaders despairing and morale lagging, but not leadership despairing. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 04:21, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
The effect on Armagnac morale was immediate.[91]This entire paragraph has me baffled, and I can't find anything in the source supporting this "immediate" effect on morale. I'm left confused about what the paragraph is saying, although the sources do give good explanations of how she raised morale over time among the soldiers. Perhaps I'll find that in the next section. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 04:44, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Everything above looks good ... I moved that last sentence at the bottom of the section to the next section per your suggestion. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 07:25, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
The Burgundians had recently withdrawn from the siege due to disagreements about territory, and the English were unsure about continuing it.SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 07:25, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Joan arrived at Orléans on 29 April 1429I can't locate that in the source. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 04:48, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
But she quickly gained the faith of the Armagnac troops, who believed she could bring them to victory.I cannot find in the sources what we are using to source the word "quickly", but I am finding a lot of detail in all of the sources throughout this section about her military tactics, style, acumen that we have not included. If we want to convince the reader that the troops loved her, we might give some idea of how this woman came to be respected and followed by the soldiers. We say this battle happened, then that battle happened, and the next battle happened ... and are left with the impression that all Joan did was show up and show her banner. There's much more detail in the sources, and including some of that would make the whole hang together better. Did they only follow her because they thought she was sent by God, or did she do other things to deserve their trust and respect? When do we get to the part about how she believed war should be waged and how she used those beliefs to gain trust? I'm not seeing where the sources say that happened quickly; perhaps I missed it. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 05:09, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Over time, some of the Armagnac commanders would accept the advice she gave themthe reader is given no idea of what kinds of advice a 19-yo, non-military person was giving these commanders. The Siege of Orleans was her claim to fame, so can we provide more detail on her strategy, advice, actions, etc. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 05:55, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
On 5 May, no combat occurred since it was Ascension Thursday, a feast day Joan deemed too holy for fighting.The implication is that by this point, Joan was calling the shots ... we aren't given any idea of how we got from there to here. We were just told she had no formal command, wasn't told of a battle, and suddenly she is deciding on which days no fighting will happen? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 05:58, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Before advancing toward Reims, the Armagnacs needed to clear the way between Chinon and Orléans. It's not apparent from looking at the map why this is the case, but presumably (?) because Charles would have to get from Chinon via Orleans to Reims? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 06:23, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Joan's helmet was struck by a stone while she was beneath the town's walls.It's unclear why this sentence is here. Perhaps because Devries says that her being wounded encouraged the soldiers to continue the fight ? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 06:40, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Political debates about strategy,[120] as well as the need to recruit additional soldiers,[121] delayed the start of the campaign to clear the Loire towns.It is not made clear how this relates to Joan or what her role was in these debates or how it affected her. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 06:43, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
The Armagnac army advanced on Meung-sur-Loire.Did Joan have a role in those battles? None is mentioned. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 07:02, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
In October, Joan was sent as part of a force to attack the territory of Perrinet Gressart [fr], a mercenary who had served the Burgundians and English.The pages of Barker should be 137 to 138, not 136 (sorry I cannot manage those citations fixes myself when iPad typing). Barker says they "withdrew shamefully" and Joan's "reputation was tarnished" by the failure. But I see Devries 159 says there is little detail. Can we provide any summary of the outcome? From DeVries, might we mention "once she recovered from her wounds" (from Paris)? Reader is left wondering how serious the wounds were, and we never hear of them again.
During this truce, there was little for Joan to do.Barker Devries are more forceful; does our wording need to be more active? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:04, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Joan set out without the explicit permission of Charles, who was still observing the truce.[169] This may have been a desperate act that could be seen as treason,[170] but it has been argued that she could not have launched the expedition without funding from the court.[171]I ask because, if we are to expand her "fall from favor" (above), this text ties in to that. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:13, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
by the mercenary Franquet d'Arras. He was captured, and Joan consented to have him executed instead of ransomed.d'Arras does not have a French Wikipedia article, and he is never mentioned again in this article. A reader can guess the issue of his execution will come up later (as mentioned in Devries 169) but it does not seem to, so it is unclear why he is mentioned. (Perhaps I will discover this as I keep reading?) Should we say instead "consented to allow the townspeople to execute him after a trial"? That is, her army didn't do the deed ... SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:26, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Done through Capture-- a logical place to pause to allow you to catch up, and then I have a series of copyedits in multiple sections I want to address before continuing. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:56, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
fearing her because she appeared to have supernatural powers that undermined their morale.[200]. If so, should it be used earlier, in the military campaigns? Also, by switching from "visions" to "voices", are we not adopting a psychiatric POV? I'd like to end up with this (but I can't access the source) instead of what is there now: SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 23:31, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Nothing, SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 00:10, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
Nothing. Resuming #Legacy above (it requires a lot of work so may leave 'til last). SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 03:30, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
Nothing, SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 03:53, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
La Pucelle, a role that was neither male nor femaleI am not getting that from the sources (well, possibly one of them, if we attribute the opinion). SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 03:53, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
In 1428, a young man from her village alleged that she had broken a promise of marriage. The case was brought before an ecclesiastical court in the city of Toul and dismissed.[13]We're talking about vision and the hundred year war and suddenly we have this random insertion that doesn't fit anywhere and isn't again referred to. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 02:09, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
Cauchon served as the ordinary judge of the trial.I don't know what is meant by ordinary here, and the source gives me no help. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 02:39, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
leave Domrémy to help the Dauphin Charles.[47]The Goldstone p. 98 citation is wrong. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 15:17, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
She chose to wear men's clothes,[64]is not on Gies p. 34, rather p. 35. Lucie-Smith, range should be pp. 32–33 Warner range should be pp. 143-144. Similar occurs in the Cross dressing section, where page ranges would better support the text, as she had multiple responses. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 15:53, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
I edited it toJoan has been described as representing the best qualities of both sexes: she heeded her inner experience, fought for what she believed in, and encouraged others to do the same.
I cannot access all the sources. I have read Dworkin 115 to 120 (which mostly impressed me that we haven't explained the significance of Catherine and Margaret in her visions) and Barstow, who says on page 127, not 128, that she "disturbs our expectations of what female or male should be" and page 128 mentions the "self direction that she established through the medium of her voices" and on page 129 has "women as well as men" ... "capable of" ... "intelligence, courage and skills". Granting that there are two other sources I haven't read, I can't see that this sentence is capturing what the sources say. I'm unclear that the main topic is even sex/gender roles, rather how Joan's view of herself was one of self-determination based on her visions. Perhaps I need to read the other two sources (which I don't have), but the sentence needs work, as does perhaps our examination of the women in her visions. If we change the wording to something more generic like "transcending gender roles", then at minimum the page ranges on Dworkin and Barstow need to expand, because one has to read more pages than those indicated to get the flavor. I'm not sure the three attributes are well focused. And I'm unclear the points being made by the sources is fine-tuned enough. Without reading the journal sources, I'm unclear where to go next with this. Over to you, Wtfiv. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 05:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)Joan has been described as representing the attributes traditionally associated with male and female gender: she heeded her inner experience, fought for what she believed in, and encouraged others to do the same.
Digging in to the two sources you emailed me
Sexsmith (1990):
Barstow (1985):
So my ideas, summarized ... get more context up in Early life (or somewhere) for the saints she saw in visions and how they related to her actions and how her self-determination developed via her visions. And rework the sentence about gender/sex, perhaps more toward what really seems (?????) to be the driving force from the sources, which is not so much gender or sex, but her determination to cast herself as her visions told her, independent of any role. We may be better to stay focused on what Joan said about herself, than what history has made of her, changing over time to suit political or religious aims. Just ideas ... working on tightening the lead (which is too long and never drives home the most critical points) hinges on getting this Legacy stuff worked out with more clarity. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 16:44, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
Revisiting after new additions and more source reading. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 16:59, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
In 1428, the region was raided by a Burgundian force under Antoine de Vergy [fr],[40] who set fire to the town and destroyed its crops.could we add a clause here indicating that Joan, her family, and townspeople were forced to flee to a neighboring town (to demonstrate direct impact on her vis-a-vis timing of visions)? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 16:59, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
Joan had her first vision during this timefollows on a sentence talking about 1428, but refers back to 1425; the sentence and "during this time" is too vague. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:01, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
This revived suspicions that the Dauphin was the illegitimate product of Isabeau's rumored affair with the late Duke of Orléans rather than the son of King Charles VI.I don't believe (??) we ever tie this bit of text to how it relates to Joan specifically; that is, she was able to prey upon Charles's insecurities and convince him that God has told her that he was the legitimate heir ... I can't recall which source that states that, but it would add clarity to work this in to Chinon. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 18:18, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
Joan testified that she swore a vow of virginity to these voices.This sentence is uncited. Gies p. 24 says she swore it to St. Michael on first encounter/vision.
Current [12] (611 words) | Draft 1 proposal (529 words) |
---|---|
Joan of Arc (
French: Jeanne d'Arc pronounced
[ʒan daʁk];
c. 1412 – 30 May 1431) is a
patron saint of France, who achieved fame for her role in the
siege of Orléans and the
coronation of
Charles VII of France during the
Hundred Years' War against England. After successfully leading several French military actions, she was captured, handed over to English authorities, convicted as a
heretic, and
burnt at the stake in 1431. Twenty-five years later, her conviction was formally overturned. She was
canonized by the
Roman Catholic Church in 1920, 488 years after her death.
Joan was born to a peasant family of some means at Domrémy in northeast France. In 1428, she traveled to Vaucouleurs and requested to be taken to Charles, later testifying that she had received visions from the archangel Michael, Saint Margaret, and Saint Catherine instructing her to support Charles and recover France from English domination. Her request to see Charles was rejected twice, but she was finally given an escort to meet Charles at Chinon. After their interview, Charles sent Joan, who was about 17 years old, to the siege of Orléans as part of a relief army. She arrived at the city on 29 April 1429, wielding her banner and bringing faith to the French army that she could bring them victory. The English were defeated in a series of battles, and nine days after Joan's arrival they abandoned the siege. Joan encouraged the French to aggressively pursue the English during the Loire Campaign, which culminated in the decisive defeat of the English at the Battle of Patay. This opened the way for the French army to advance on Reims unopposed. It entered the city on 16 July. The next day, Charles was crowned as the King of France in Reims Cathedral with Joan at his side. These victories boosted French morale and paved the way for the final French victory in the Hundred Years' War at Castillon in 1453. After Charles's coronation, Joan and John II, Duke of Alençon's army besieged Paris. An assault on the city was launched on 8 September. It failed, and Joan was wounded. The French army withdrew and was disbanded. In October, Joan was participating in an attack on the territory of Perrinet Gressart, a mercenary who had been in the service of the English and their French allies, the Burgundians. After some initial successes, the campaign ended in a failed attempt to take Gressart's stronghold. At the end of the 1429, Joan and her family were ennobled by Charles. In early 1430, Joan organized a company of volunteers to relieve Compiègne, which had been besieged by the Burgundians. She was captured by Burgundian troops on 23 May and exchanged to the English. She was put on trial by the bishop, Pierre Cauchon, on an accusation of heresy. She was charged with twelve articles, which included blaspheming by wearing men's clothes, acting upon visions that were demonic, and refusing to submit her words and deeds to the judgement of the Church. She was declared guilty and burned at the stake on 30 May 1431, dying at about 19 years of age. In 1456, Pope Callixtus III authorized an inquisitorial court to investigate the original trial. The court nullified the trial's verdict, declaring it was tainted by deceit and procedural errors, and Joan was exonerated. Since her death, Joan has been popularly revered as a martyr. After the French Revolution she became a national symbol of France. She was canonized in 1920, and declared a one of the patron saints of France in 1922. Joan of Arc is portrayed in modern literature, painting, sculpture, music, and other cultural works.
|
Joan of Arc (
French: Jeanne d'Arc pronounced
[ʒan daʁk];
c. 1412 – 30 May 1431) is a
patron saint of France, honored as a defender of the French nation for her role in the
siege of Orléans and her insistence on the
coronation of
Charles VII of France during the
Hundred Years' War. Convinced that she was acting under the divine guidance of saints, she heeded the voices that she said came to her in visions and became a military leader who transcended gender roles, gaining recognition as the savior of France.
Joan was born to a peasant family of some means at Domrémy in northeast France. In 1428, she requested to be taken to Charles, later testifying that she had received frequent and recurring guidance in visions from the archangel Michael, Saint Margaret, and Saint Catherine instructing her to support Charles to recover France from English domination. Convinced of her devotion and purity, Charles sent Joan, who was about seventeen years old, to the siege of Orléans as part of a relief army. She arrived at the city on 29 April 1429, wielding her banner and bringing hope to the demoralized French army. Nine days after Joan's arrival, the English abandoned the siege. Joan encouraged the French to aggressively pursue the English during the Loire Campaign, which culminated in another decisive victory, opening the way for the French army to advance on Reims unopposed, where Charles was crowned as the King of France with Joan at his side. These victories boosted French morale and paved the way for their final victory in the Hundred Years' War several decades later. After Charles's coronation, Joan participated in the unsuccessful siege of Paris in September 1429 and the failed Siege of La Charité in November. Her role in these defeats reduced the court's faith in her and resulted in expressions from scholars that her inspiration was not divine. Joan organized a company of volunteers in early 1430 to relieve Compiègne, which had been besieged by the Burgundians—French allies of the English. She was captured by Burgundian troops on 23 May. After several attempts to escape, she was exchanged in November to the English. She was put on trial by Bishop Pierre Cauchon on accusations of heresy, which included blaspheming by wearing men's clothes, acting upon visions that were demonic, and refusing to submit her words and deeds to the judgement of the Church. She was declared guilty and burned at the stake on 30 May 1431, dying at about nineteen years of age. In 1456, Pope Callixtus III authorized an inquisitorial court to investigate Joan's trial. The court nullified the verdict, declaring that it was tainted by deceit and procedural errors, and Joan was exonerated. Joan has been revered as a martyr and viewed as an obedient daughter of the Roman Catholic Church, an early feminist, and a symbol of freedom and independence. After the French Revolution she became a national symbol of France. She was canonized by the Roman Catholic Church in 1920, and declared one of the patron saints of France in 1922. Joan of Arc is portrayed in modern literature, painting, sculpture, music, and numerous other cultural works. |
This is a first pass, suggesting the direction I believe we need to go. The currrent lead is too long, and it gets in to too much detail in the middle, leaving out key points. I also don't think the first paragraph should be a summary of the summary.
Hog Farm had asked to be pinged for review when we were ready, but mentioned today on talk that he has a broken computer screen, so we may need to wait. Meanwhile, we can make progress on the lead, and perhaps after we make a few passes at refining the lead, we can next ping in other involved editors for a look. The way we worked at J. K. Rowling was to discuss changes to the Draft, and then put up a second full Draft for the next review (I can't think well in bits and pieces, and need to see how the whole thing hangs together). SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 08:38, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
But if an editor is troubled by "heroine", could patron saint create similar concerns? Or, does the citation cover the concerns? Otherwise, I think it is clean and to the point. I don't even see the need for micro-edits on my part at this point, (though there may be details I missed.) Wtfiv ( talk) 15:53, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
Draft 1 proposal (529 words) | Draft 2 proposal (493 words) |
---|---|
Joan of Arc (
French: Jeanne d'Arc pronounced
[ʒan daʁk];
c. 1412 – 30 May 1431) is a
patron saint of France, honored as a defender of the French nation for her role in the
siege of Orléans and her insistence on the
coronation of
Charles VII of France during the
Hundred Years' War. Convinced that she was acting under the divine guidance of saints, she heeded the voices that she said came to her in visions and became a military leader who transcended gender roles, gaining recognition as the savior of France.
Joan was born to a peasant family of some means at Domrémy in northeast France. In 1428, she requested to be taken to Charles, later testifying that she had received frequent and recurring guidance in visions from the archangel Michael, Saint Margaret, and Saint Catherine instructing her to support Charles to recover France from English domination. Convinced of her devotion and purity, Charles sent Joan, who was about seventeen years old, to the siege of Orléans as part of a relief army. She arrived at the city on 29 April 1429, wielding her banner and bringing hope to the demoralized French army. Nine days after Joan's arrival, the English abandoned the siege. Joan encouraged the French to aggressively pursue the English during the Loire Campaign, which culminated in another decisive victory, opening the way for the French army to advance on Reims unopposed, where Charles was crowned as the King of France with Joan at his side. These victories boosted French morale and paved the way for their final victory in the Hundred Years' War several decades later. After Charles's coronation, Joan participated in the unsuccessful siege of Paris in September 1429 and the failed Siege of La Charité in November. Her role in these defeats reduced the court's faith in her and resulted in expressions from scholars that her inspiration was not divine. Joan organized a company of volunteers in early 1430 to relieve Compiègne, which had been besieged by the Burgundians—French allies of the English. She was captured by Burgundian troops on 23 May. After several attempts to escape, she was exchanged in November to the English. She was put on trial by Bishop Pierre Cauchon on accusations of heresy, which included blaspheming by wearing men's clothes, acting upon visions that were demonic, and refusing to submit her words and deeds to the judgement of the Church. She was declared guilty and burned at the stake on 30 May 1431, dying at about nineteen years of age. In 1456, Pope Callixtus III authorized an inquisitorial court to investigate Joan's trial. The court nullified the verdict, declaring that it was tainted by deceit and procedural errors, and Joan was exonerated. Joan has been revered as a martyr and viewed as an obedient daughter of the Roman Catholic Church, an early feminist, and a symbol of freedom and independence. After the French Revolution she became a national symbol of France. She was canonized by the Roman Catholic Church in 1920, and declared one of the patron saints of France in 1922. Joan of Arc is portrayed in modern literature, painting, sculpture, music, and numerous other cultural works. |
Joan of Arc (
French: Jeanne d'Arc pronounced
[ʒan daʁk];
c. 1412 – 30 May 1431) is a
patron saint of France, honored as a defender of the French nation for her role in the
siege of Orléans and her insistence on the
coronation of
Charles VII of France during the
Hundred Years' War. Believing that she was acting under divine guidance, she became a military leader who transcended gender roles and gained recognition as the savior of France.
Joan was born to a propertied peasant family at Domrémy in northeast France. In 1428, she requested to be taken to Charles, later testifying that she was guided by visions from the archangel Michael, Saint Margaret, and Saint Catherine to help him save France from English domination. Convinced of her devotion and purity, Charles sent Joan, who was about seventeen years old, to the siege of Orléans as part of a relief army. She arrived at the city in April 1429, wielding her banner and bringing hope to the demoralized French army. Nine days after her arrival, the English abandoned the siege. Joan encouraged the French to aggressively pursue the English during the Loire Campaign, which culminated in another decisive victory at Patay, opening the way for the French army to advance on Reims unopposed, where Charles was crowned as the King of France with Joan at his side. These victories boosted French morale and paved the way for their final victory in the Hundred Years' War several decades later. After Charles's coronation, Joan participated in the unsuccessful siege of Paris in September 1429 and the failed siege of La Charité in November. Her role in these defeats reduced the court's faith in her calling. In early 1430, Joan organized a company of volunteers to relieve Compiègne, which had been besieged by the Burgundians—French allies of the English. She was captured by Burgundian troops on 23 May. After several attempts to escape, she was exchanged in November to the English. She was put on trial by Bishop Pierre Cauchon on accusations of heresy, which included blaspheming by wearing men's clothes, acting upon visions that were demonic, and refusing to submit her words and deeds to the judgement of the Church. She was declared guilty and burned at the stake on 30 May 1431, dying at about nineteen years of age. In 1456, an inquisitorial court reinvestigated Joan's trial. The court nullified the verdict, declaring that it was tainted by deceit and procedural errors, and she was exonerated. Joan has been viewed as an obedient daughter of the Roman Catholic Church, an early feminist, and a symbol of freedom and independence. She has been revered as a martyr. After the French Revolution she became a national symbol of France. She was canonized by the Roman Catholic Church in 1920, and declared one of the patron saints of France in 1922. Joan of Arc is portrayed in modern literature, painting, sculpture, music, and numerous other cultural works. |
Edited draft.
FARC continued commentary
What is all that fiddle-faddle in the Infobox, listed under Patronage, almost all unsourced?
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 04:42, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
Similarly, another infobox-induced idiocy is that the location of her beatification and canonization (St Peter's) is listed in the infobox, but not in the article, hence uncited.
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 04:46, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
Pernoud & Clin 1986, p. 165. Does not verify "earliest extant representation" as far as I can tell.
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 04:59, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
DeVries 1999, p. 31; Maddox 2012, p. 442. Harv error: link from CITEREFMaddox2012 doesn't point to any citation. Harv Ref error,
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 04:59, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
All addressed, SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 18:48, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
FAC Nominator User:Durova
Stats excerpted as of 9 December, 2021, SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 02:44, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 03:55, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
Please set up separate sections for each nomination.
I nominate User:Wtfiv for a Featured article save award for their herculean efforts over a year to completely rewrite Joan of Arc to FA standards. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 14:29, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
I nominate User:John for a Featured article save award for contributions towards saving the bronze star at Joan of Arc. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 14:29, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
Hchc2009 as I do my review, I am (slowly) trying to address your concerns as I go (I will get to the statements that need time context as I come to them). I haven't started yet on text. For now, I have attempted some work to address the image caption issues you raised. But image work is not my forté, and I've avoided them like the plague for my entire WikiCareer; could you have a look at the image captions now and let me know if the job is done, and if not, what else is needed? I have tried to standardize to the name or type of art, followed in parentheses by the date and where it is located. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 01:17, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
Aza24 your change had the statues/horses marching off the page; images should face the page or text. I'm not a believer in a strict left to right balance, but images facing off the screen are very distracting! Bst, SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 04:56, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Sandy I found this image of the coronation, checking the source and cropping. A bit melodramatic, but it keeps with the theme of 19th-20th century French national images of Joan that the article is now tending toward. Should we use it (or the cropped version) in place of the paired 15th century images? Or are the 15th century images fine? Wtfiv ( talk) 19:01, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
Looking at the images currently in the article...
Wtfiv wrote below: I'm thinking we could delete the alternate history legacy altogether. We could create a "See also" section and link there. The only problem is that the "alternate history" was heavily edited by sockpuppet accounts. Maybe we should just leave it out altogether? I feel somewhat the same about the relics section. The information is good for those interested, but does it go here?
Joan of Arc has become a semi-legendary figure... ugh ... can we find a better word than "semi-legendary"? Feels like almost pregnant; either you're a legend or you're not. The cited source gives me no other leads, but perhaps others do. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 01:15, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
Legacy is a mess, and will take a lot of thought to fix. Also, it is the legacy mess that is making the lead problematic. I will start fresh on a new day. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 02:48, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
The readable prose of this version is only 7,100 words; we have room to add prose.
This is an example of where I believe the reader is forced to stumble over too many footnotes:
I believe this, as an example, is solveable by moving some of the footnoted text to article content. See J. K. Rowling.
So, in these edits, I've removed two footnotes. Revert if you hate it; comments? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 21:02, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
Two more footnotes reduced here; this is text that is useful for the reader, and one of them hung me up on my first read-through. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 21:15, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
Done The footnotes have now been reduced in half from where they were when reviewers complained; the number of footnotes now is not unreasonable, and if a reviewer objects to them, they should state explicitly what is wrong with any give footnote. I am satisfied with the footnotes as of this version. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 00:03, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
SandyGeorgia thanks for catching the Barrett citation. I got rid of the Quicherat citations and moved them too. Because this is all good primary source material, I'd like to keep them. But I do dislike "Further Reading" sections, as they open the window for endless self-promotion. Is it reasonable to put it back into sources under the "Source Material" heading setting ref to none, or create a subsection called "General Reference" as per
WP:CITETYPE? What are your thoughts? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Wtfiv (
talk •
contribs) 7:43, August 19, 2022 (UTC)
First, I will put the map back myself on the infobox (since I removed, don't want you to have to do the work), but a) it is horrible (as it repeats what is in the other map) and b) I'll then have to juggle images to avoid the sandwich issues. Working on that next. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 23:08, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
Wtfiv wrote above: Even though the two maps are similar, they are doing different work. The first is there to make sense of the historical details in that first section and has details beyond Joan's life and doesn't mark all of Joan's notable place. But they do overlap a lot So I see your point. Suggestions?
I am now satisfied that the two Maps are useful (I had not realized before how the interactive-ness of the second map worked). SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 18:03, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
The precise date, "She arrived at the city on 29 April 1429" was apparently taken out of the lead to satisfy a reviewer? I disagree; if we know the precise date, it costs us two characters to add it, and leaving it out suggests the date is not known. And it becomes even more awkward when we get to Charles's coronation on a specific date; not parallel. I believe the precise data should go back in. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 08:29, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
I similarly disagree with removing mention of her young age (17) from the lead. But I agree that the phrasing "is considered a heroine" is just asking for trouble. We can recast the whole thing to avoid the opposition; once I work through all of this, I will put up a proposal for a new lead (rather than working on it piecemeal). SandyGeorgia ( Talk)
We don't mention in the opening paragraph (often the only thing read) that she believed her inspiration to be of divine origin, so that when we do mention that she was burned at the stake as a heretic, there is no context. I will work this in to a new proposed lead. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 08:51, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
and quickly gained prominence during the fighting
... this lead text is not well supported in the body, which does not describe her fighting.
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 09:02, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
Then, with The siege was lifted nine days after her arrival
the lead doesn't tie the lifting of the siege either to her role in that or how it was viewed as divine/evil intervention. The main importance of the Siege of Orleans isn't driven home in the lead, and we instead spend a lot more words on, "she was also in this battle, and also in that battle", which gets tedious in the middle part because we aren't given context and relevance.
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 13:56, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
In the body we establish that Joan's guilt could be used to compromise Charles's claims to legitimacy by showing that he had been consecrated by the act of a heretic
, but we don't provide this context in the lead; it's not clear to someone who reads only the lead why we mention Charles's coronation where we do. Words are limited, but is it possible to tighten words elsewhere and give more key context in the lead? The lead doesn't give us any idea that she was significant in any of the various battles and events mentioned, or why.
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 14:08, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
Wtfiv wrote above: *I'm not sure about the name section. Looking at the edit, my preference is to put it into a footnote again, as we now have more room in that regard. section looks a bit too short and choppy... I looked at the J. K. Rowling example. It is very good, but Rowling's is working out a slightly more substantive issue. I think the main role of the footnote is to ensure that the concerns of editors, which seem to recur is addressed. Discuss?
Since she is widely known as the Maid of Orléans, why not mention that in the Names section? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 08:36, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
I moved the illiterate footnote in to the Names section, but we have contradictory information that needs to be reconciled. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:50, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
The first written record of her being called Joan Darc is 1455 in the opening document of Joan's rehabilitation trial.At this point, the reader has not encountered the words rehabilitation trial; the statement has no context. Either the lead terminology should switch to that used here, or the terminology used here should switch to that used in the lead (inquisitorial court to investigate the original trial). SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 00:13, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
a councillor of Charles VII, wrote a letter to the Duke of Milan statingat this point in the article, we do not know who is the Duke of Milan (in fact, I don't think we ever mention the Duke of Milan again). We need to either say who it is, or remove mention altogether. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 00:29, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Neither Joan's mother nor the witnesses at the rehabilitation trial mention her being born on Epiphany.Similar to Name section, we are introducing a term here that has not been used defined or explained in the article at this stage (rehabilitation trial). SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 00:37, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Charles of Orléans succeeded his father as duke and was placed in the custody of his father-in-law Bernard, Count of Armagnac... whose father-in-law (Charles the son had a wife, her father? or Charles VI father-in-law)? It seems odd that one would be young enough to need custody and yet have a father-in-law. It's unclear who's who here. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 00:55, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
In 1419, the Dauphin began peace negotiations with the Duke of Burgundy, but the duke was assassinated by Armagnac partisans during a meeting with Charles that was under a truce.What was under a truce? During a truce? The single meeting was under a truce? That was held during a truce ? It's odd phrasing ... SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 01:04, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
This revived suspicions that the Dauphin was the illegitimate product of Isabeau's rumored affair with the late Duke of Orléans rather than the son of King Charles VI.We skipped over here that Charles VI disinherited the Dauphin, and it's not clear why Isabeau would disinherit her own son ... we don't want to get into too much excess detail here, but what we do state leaves one befuddled because it doesn't follow logically that she would arrange to disinherit her own son just because he was the product of an affair. The reader has to work too hard to sort this out, and go read the article on Isabeau before getting the full picture. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 01:18, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Just before Joan arrived on the scene in 1429,... we are still in the section of her birth; we haven't even gotten to her early life. Can this entire para be moved down to the next section and merged chronologically there, so we don't have to do so much going forward, going backwards? Can this entire para become the third paragraph of the early life section? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 01:28, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Is there nothing else known about her early life in general? Even a sentence would be nice. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 14:34, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
In 1425, the village's cattle were stolen by an unaligned brigand named Henri D'Orly.Why is this included? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 01:43, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Meanwhile, she was summoned to Nancy under safe conduct by Charles II, Duke of Lorraine, who was ill and thought Joan may be able to cure him.This comes out of the blue ... how had she come to the attention of the Duke? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 02:11, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
A contradiction to be sorted. In Birth and historical background, we have
But in the early life section, the text that I moved but was earlier prefaced with
So, 1422 had a dual monarchy, but 1429 had not yet achieved that? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 03:22, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Witnesses at the rehabilitation trial who were not at Joan's first meeting with Charles report hearing that he had hidden himself in the crowd among members of the court, but Joan quickly identified and approached him.
Thereafter, the dauphin commissioned plate armor for her, she received a banner of her own design, and had a sword brought for her from underneath the altar in the church at Sainte-Catherine-de-Fierbois.I can't tell what's going on here, with switches in tense etc. HE commissioned the plate armor. HE had a sword brought for her? But ... she received ... passive voice ... stuck in the middle. HE ordered a banner made for her or her own design? Or she got that some other way? Why the switch mid-sentence? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 04:17, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
But the Armagnac leadership's morale was despairingMorale despairing? I can understanding leaders despairing and morale lagging, but not leadership despairing. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 04:21, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
The effect on Armagnac morale was immediate.[91]This entire paragraph has me baffled, and I can't find anything in the source supporting this "immediate" effect on morale. I'm left confused about what the paragraph is saying, although the sources do give good explanations of how she raised morale over time among the soldiers. Perhaps I'll find that in the next section. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 04:44, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Everything above looks good ... I moved that last sentence at the bottom of the section to the next section per your suggestion. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 07:25, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
The Burgundians had recently withdrawn from the siege due to disagreements about territory, and the English were unsure about continuing it.SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 07:25, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Joan arrived at Orléans on 29 April 1429I can't locate that in the source. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 04:48, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
But she quickly gained the faith of the Armagnac troops, who believed she could bring them to victory.I cannot find in the sources what we are using to source the word "quickly", but I am finding a lot of detail in all of the sources throughout this section about her military tactics, style, acumen that we have not included. If we want to convince the reader that the troops loved her, we might give some idea of how this woman came to be respected and followed by the soldiers. We say this battle happened, then that battle happened, and the next battle happened ... and are left with the impression that all Joan did was show up and show her banner. There's much more detail in the sources, and including some of that would make the whole hang together better. Did they only follow her because they thought she was sent by God, or did she do other things to deserve their trust and respect? When do we get to the part about how she believed war should be waged and how she used those beliefs to gain trust? I'm not seeing where the sources say that happened quickly; perhaps I missed it. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 05:09, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Over time, some of the Armagnac commanders would accept the advice she gave themthe reader is given no idea of what kinds of advice a 19-yo, non-military person was giving these commanders. The Siege of Orleans was her claim to fame, so can we provide more detail on her strategy, advice, actions, etc. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 05:55, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
On 5 May, no combat occurred since it was Ascension Thursday, a feast day Joan deemed too holy for fighting.The implication is that by this point, Joan was calling the shots ... we aren't given any idea of how we got from there to here. We were just told she had no formal command, wasn't told of a battle, and suddenly she is deciding on which days no fighting will happen? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 05:58, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Before advancing toward Reims, the Armagnacs needed to clear the way between Chinon and Orléans. It's not apparent from looking at the map why this is the case, but presumably (?) because Charles would have to get from Chinon via Orleans to Reims? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 06:23, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Joan's helmet was struck by a stone while she was beneath the town's walls.It's unclear why this sentence is here. Perhaps because Devries says that her being wounded encouraged the soldiers to continue the fight ? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 06:40, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Political debates about strategy,[120] as well as the need to recruit additional soldiers,[121] delayed the start of the campaign to clear the Loire towns.It is not made clear how this relates to Joan or what her role was in these debates or how it affected her. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 06:43, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
The Armagnac army advanced on Meung-sur-Loire.Did Joan have a role in those battles? None is mentioned. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 07:02, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
In October, Joan was sent as part of a force to attack the territory of Perrinet Gressart [fr], a mercenary who had served the Burgundians and English.The pages of Barker should be 137 to 138, not 136 (sorry I cannot manage those citations fixes myself when iPad typing). Barker says they "withdrew shamefully" and Joan's "reputation was tarnished" by the failure. But I see Devries 159 says there is little detail. Can we provide any summary of the outcome? From DeVries, might we mention "once she recovered from her wounds" (from Paris)? Reader is left wondering how serious the wounds were, and we never hear of them again.
During this truce, there was little for Joan to do.Barker Devries are more forceful; does our wording need to be more active? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:04, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Joan set out without the explicit permission of Charles, who was still observing the truce.[169] This may have been a desperate act that could be seen as treason,[170] but it has been argued that she could not have launched the expedition without funding from the court.[171]I ask because, if we are to expand her "fall from favor" (above), this text ties in to that. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:13, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
by the mercenary Franquet d'Arras. He was captured, and Joan consented to have him executed instead of ransomed.d'Arras does not have a French Wikipedia article, and he is never mentioned again in this article. A reader can guess the issue of his execution will come up later (as mentioned in Devries 169) but it does not seem to, so it is unclear why he is mentioned. (Perhaps I will discover this as I keep reading?) Should we say instead "consented to allow the townspeople to execute him after a trial"? That is, her army didn't do the deed ... SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:26, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Done through Capture-- a logical place to pause to allow you to catch up, and then I have a series of copyedits in multiple sections I want to address before continuing. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:56, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
fearing her because she appeared to have supernatural powers that undermined their morale.[200]. If so, should it be used earlier, in the military campaigns? Also, by switching from "visions" to "voices", are we not adopting a psychiatric POV? I'd like to end up with this (but I can't access the source) instead of what is there now: SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 23:31, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Nothing, SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 00:10, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
Nothing. Resuming #Legacy above (it requires a lot of work so may leave 'til last). SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 03:30, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
Nothing, SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 03:53, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
La Pucelle, a role that was neither male nor femaleI am not getting that from the sources (well, possibly one of them, if we attribute the opinion). SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 03:53, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
In 1428, a young man from her village alleged that she had broken a promise of marriage. The case was brought before an ecclesiastical court in the city of Toul and dismissed.[13]We're talking about vision and the hundred year war and suddenly we have this random insertion that doesn't fit anywhere and isn't again referred to. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 02:09, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
Cauchon served as the ordinary judge of the trial.I don't know what is meant by ordinary here, and the source gives me no help. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 02:39, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
leave Domrémy to help the Dauphin Charles.[47]The Goldstone p. 98 citation is wrong. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 15:17, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
She chose to wear men's clothes,[64]is not on Gies p. 34, rather p. 35. Lucie-Smith, range should be pp. 32–33 Warner range should be pp. 143-144. Similar occurs in the Cross dressing section, where page ranges would better support the text, as she had multiple responses. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 15:53, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
I edited it toJoan has been described as representing the best qualities of both sexes: she heeded her inner experience, fought for what she believed in, and encouraged others to do the same.
I cannot access all the sources. I have read Dworkin 115 to 120 (which mostly impressed me that we haven't explained the significance of Catherine and Margaret in her visions) and Barstow, who says on page 127, not 128, that she "disturbs our expectations of what female or male should be" and page 128 mentions the "self direction that she established through the medium of her voices" and on page 129 has "women as well as men" ... "capable of" ... "intelligence, courage and skills". Granting that there are two other sources I haven't read, I can't see that this sentence is capturing what the sources say. I'm unclear that the main topic is even sex/gender roles, rather how Joan's view of herself was one of self-determination based on her visions. Perhaps I need to read the other two sources (which I don't have), but the sentence needs work, as does perhaps our examination of the women in her visions. If we change the wording to something more generic like "transcending gender roles", then at minimum the page ranges on Dworkin and Barstow need to expand, because one has to read more pages than those indicated to get the flavor. I'm not sure the three attributes are well focused. And I'm unclear the points being made by the sources is fine-tuned enough. Without reading the journal sources, I'm unclear where to go next with this. Over to you, Wtfiv. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 05:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)Joan has been described as representing the attributes traditionally associated with male and female gender: she heeded her inner experience, fought for what she believed in, and encouraged others to do the same.
Digging in to the two sources you emailed me
Sexsmith (1990):
Barstow (1985):
So my ideas, summarized ... get more context up in Early life (or somewhere) for the saints she saw in visions and how they related to her actions and how her self-determination developed via her visions. And rework the sentence about gender/sex, perhaps more toward what really seems (?????) to be the driving force from the sources, which is not so much gender or sex, but her determination to cast herself as her visions told her, independent of any role. We may be better to stay focused on what Joan said about herself, than what history has made of her, changing over time to suit political or religious aims. Just ideas ... working on tightening the lead (which is too long and never drives home the most critical points) hinges on getting this Legacy stuff worked out with more clarity. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 16:44, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
Revisiting after new additions and more source reading. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 16:59, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
In 1428, the region was raided by a Burgundian force under Antoine de Vergy [fr],[40] who set fire to the town and destroyed its crops.could we add a clause here indicating that Joan, her family, and townspeople were forced to flee to a neighboring town (to demonstrate direct impact on her vis-a-vis timing of visions)? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 16:59, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
Joan had her first vision during this timefollows on a sentence talking about 1428, but refers back to 1425; the sentence and "during this time" is too vague. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:01, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
This revived suspicions that the Dauphin was the illegitimate product of Isabeau's rumored affair with the late Duke of Orléans rather than the son of King Charles VI.I don't believe (??) we ever tie this bit of text to how it relates to Joan specifically; that is, she was able to prey upon Charles's insecurities and convince him that God has told her that he was the legitimate heir ... I can't recall which source that states that, but it would add clarity to work this in to Chinon. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 18:18, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
Joan testified that she swore a vow of virginity to these voices.This sentence is uncited. Gies p. 24 says she swore it to St. Michael on first encounter/vision.
Current [12] (611 words) | Draft 1 proposal (529 words) |
---|---|
Joan of Arc (
French: Jeanne d'Arc pronounced
[ʒan daʁk];
c. 1412 – 30 May 1431) is a
patron saint of France, who achieved fame for her role in the
siege of Orléans and the
coronation of
Charles VII of France during the
Hundred Years' War against England. After successfully leading several French military actions, she was captured, handed over to English authorities, convicted as a
heretic, and
burnt at the stake in 1431. Twenty-five years later, her conviction was formally overturned. She was
canonized by the
Roman Catholic Church in 1920, 488 years after her death.
Joan was born to a peasant family of some means at Domrémy in northeast France. In 1428, she traveled to Vaucouleurs and requested to be taken to Charles, later testifying that she had received visions from the archangel Michael, Saint Margaret, and Saint Catherine instructing her to support Charles and recover France from English domination. Her request to see Charles was rejected twice, but she was finally given an escort to meet Charles at Chinon. After their interview, Charles sent Joan, who was about 17 years old, to the siege of Orléans as part of a relief army. She arrived at the city on 29 April 1429, wielding her banner and bringing faith to the French army that she could bring them victory. The English were defeated in a series of battles, and nine days after Joan's arrival they abandoned the siege. Joan encouraged the French to aggressively pursue the English during the Loire Campaign, which culminated in the decisive defeat of the English at the Battle of Patay. This opened the way for the French army to advance on Reims unopposed. It entered the city on 16 July. The next day, Charles was crowned as the King of France in Reims Cathedral with Joan at his side. These victories boosted French morale and paved the way for the final French victory in the Hundred Years' War at Castillon in 1453. After Charles's coronation, Joan and John II, Duke of Alençon's army besieged Paris. An assault on the city was launched on 8 September. It failed, and Joan was wounded. The French army withdrew and was disbanded. In October, Joan was participating in an attack on the territory of Perrinet Gressart, a mercenary who had been in the service of the English and their French allies, the Burgundians. After some initial successes, the campaign ended in a failed attempt to take Gressart's stronghold. At the end of the 1429, Joan and her family were ennobled by Charles. In early 1430, Joan organized a company of volunteers to relieve Compiègne, which had been besieged by the Burgundians. She was captured by Burgundian troops on 23 May and exchanged to the English. She was put on trial by the bishop, Pierre Cauchon, on an accusation of heresy. She was charged with twelve articles, which included blaspheming by wearing men's clothes, acting upon visions that were demonic, and refusing to submit her words and deeds to the judgement of the Church. She was declared guilty and burned at the stake on 30 May 1431, dying at about 19 years of age. In 1456, Pope Callixtus III authorized an inquisitorial court to investigate the original trial. The court nullified the trial's verdict, declaring it was tainted by deceit and procedural errors, and Joan was exonerated. Since her death, Joan has been popularly revered as a martyr. After the French Revolution she became a national symbol of France. She was canonized in 1920, and declared a one of the patron saints of France in 1922. Joan of Arc is portrayed in modern literature, painting, sculpture, music, and other cultural works.
|
Joan of Arc (
French: Jeanne d'Arc pronounced
[ʒan daʁk];
c. 1412 – 30 May 1431) is a
patron saint of France, honored as a defender of the French nation for her role in the
siege of Orléans and her insistence on the
coronation of
Charles VII of France during the
Hundred Years' War. Convinced that she was acting under the divine guidance of saints, she heeded the voices that she said came to her in visions and became a military leader who transcended gender roles, gaining recognition as the savior of France.
Joan was born to a peasant family of some means at Domrémy in northeast France. In 1428, she requested to be taken to Charles, later testifying that she had received frequent and recurring guidance in visions from the archangel Michael, Saint Margaret, and Saint Catherine instructing her to support Charles to recover France from English domination. Convinced of her devotion and purity, Charles sent Joan, who was about seventeen years old, to the siege of Orléans as part of a relief army. She arrived at the city on 29 April 1429, wielding her banner and bringing hope to the demoralized French army. Nine days after Joan's arrival, the English abandoned the siege. Joan encouraged the French to aggressively pursue the English during the Loire Campaign, which culminated in another decisive victory, opening the way for the French army to advance on Reims unopposed, where Charles was crowned as the King of France with Joan at his side. These victories boosted French morale and paved the way for their final victory in the Hundred Years' War several decades later. After Charles's coronation, Joan participated in the unsuccessful siege of Paris in September 1429 and the failed Siege of La Charité in November. Her role in these defeats reduced the court's faith in her and resulted in expressions from scholars that her inspiration was not divine. Joan organized a company of volunteers in early 1430 to relieve Compiègne, which had been besieged by the Burgundians—French allies of the English. She was captured by Burgundian troops on 23 May. After several attempts to escape, she was exchanged in November to the English. She was put on trial by Bishop Pierre Cauchon on accusations of heresy, which included blaspheming by wearing men's clothes, acting upon visions that were demonic, and refusing to submit her words and deeds to the judgement of the Church. She was declared guilty and burned at the stake on 30 May 1431, dying at about nineteen years of age. In 1456, Pope Callixtus III authorized an inquisitorial court to investigate Joan's trial. The court nullified the verdict, declaring that it was tainted by deceit and procedural errors, and Joan was exonerated. Joan has been revered as a martyr and viewed as an obedient daughter of the Roman Catholic Church, an early feminist, and a symbol of freedom and independence. After the French Revolution she became a national symbol of France. She was canonized by the Roman Catholic Church in 1920, and declared one of the patron saints of France in 1922. Joan of Arc is portrayed in modern literature, painting, sculpture, music, and numerous other cultural works. |
This is a first pass, suggesting the direction I believe we need to go. The currrent lead is too long, and it gets in to too much detail in the middle, leaving out key points. I also don't think the first paragraph should be a summary of the summary.
Hog Farm had asked to be pinged for review when we were ready, but mentioned today on talk that he has a broken computer screen, so we may need to wait. Meanwhile, we can make progress on the lead, and perhaps after we make a few passes at refining the lead, we can next ping in other involved editors for a look. The way we worked at J. K. Rowling was to discuss changes to the Draft, and then put up a second full Draft for the next review (I can't think well in bits and pieces, and need to see how the whole thing hangs together). SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 08:38, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
But if an editor is troubled by "heroine", could patron saint create similar concerns? Or, does the citation cover the concerns? Otherwise, I think it is clean and to the point. I don't even see the need for micro-edits on my part at this point, (though there may be details I missed.) Wtfiv ( talk) 15:53, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
Draft 1 proposal (529 words) | Draft 2 proposal (493 words) |
---|---|
Joan of Arc (
French: Jeanne d'Arc pronounced
[ʒan daʁk];
c. 1412 – 30 May 1431) is a
patron saint of France, honored as a defender of the French nation for her role in the
siege of Orléans and her insistence on the
coronation of
Charles VII of France during the
Hundred Years' War. Convinced that she was acting under the divine guidance of saints, she heeded the voices that she said came to her in visions and became a military leader who transcended gender roles, gaining recognition as the savior of France.
Joan was born to a peasant family of some means at Domrémy in northeast France. In 1428, she requested to be taken to Charles, later testifying that she had received frequent and recurring guidance in visions from the archangel Michael, Saint Margaret, and Saint Catherine instructing her to support Charles to recover France from English domination. Convinced of her devotion and purity, Charles sent Joan, who was about seventeen years old, to the siege of Orléans as part of a relief army. She arrived at the city on 29 April 1429, wielding her banner and bringing hope to the demoralized French army. Nine days after Joan's arrival, the English abandoned the siege. Joan encouraged the French to aggressively pursue the English during the Loire Campaign, which culminated in another decisive victory, opening the way for the French army to advance on Reims unopposed, where Charles was crowned as the King of France with Joan at his side. These victories boosted French morale and paved the way for their final victory in the Hundred Years' War several decades later. After Charles's coronation, Joan participated in the unsuccessful siege of Paris in September 1429 and the failed Siege of La Charité in November. Her role in these defeats reduced the court's faith in her and resulted in expressions from scholars that her inspiration was not divine. Joan organized a company of volunteers in early 1430 to relieve Compiègne, which had been besieged by the Burgundians—French allies of the English. She was captured by Burgundian troops on 23 May. After several attempts to escape, she was exchanged in November to the English. She was put on trial by Bishop Pierre Cauchon on accusations of heresy, which included blaspheming by wearing men's clothes, acting upon visions that were demonic, and refusing to submit her words and deeds to the judgement of the Church. She was declared guilty and burned at the stake on 30 May 1431, dying at about nineteen years of age. In 1456, Pope Callixtus III authorized an inquisitorial court to investigate Joan's trial. The court nullified the verdict, declaring that it was tainted by deceit and procedural errors, and Joan was exonerated. Joan has been revered as a martyr and viewed as an obedient daughter of the Roman Catholic Church, an early feminist, and a symbol of freedom and independence. After the French Revolution she became a national symbol of France. She was canonized by the Roman Catholic Church in 1920, and declared one of the patron saints of France in 1922. Joan of Arc is portrayed in modern literature, painting, sculpture, music, and numerous other cultural works. |
Joan of Arc (
French: Jeanne d'Arc pronounced
[ʒan daʁk];
c. 1412 – 30 May 1431) is a
patron saint of France, honored as a defender of the French nation for her role in the
siege of Orléans and her insistence on the
coronation of
Charles VII of France during the
Hundred Years' War. Believing that she was acting under divine guidance, she became a military leader who transcended gender roles and gained recognition as the savior of France.
Joan was born to a propertied peasant family at Domrémy in northeast France. In 1428, she requested to be taken to Charles, later testifying that she was guided by visions from the archangel Michael, Saint Margaret, and Saint Catherine to help him save France from English domination. Convinced of her devotion and purity, Charles sent Joan, who was about seventeen years old, to the siege of Orléans as part of a relief army. She arrived at the city in April 1429, wielding her banner and bringing hope to the demoralized French army. Nine days after her arrival, the English abandoned the siege. Joan encouraged the French to aggressively pursue the English during the Loire Campaign, which culminated in another decisive victory at Patay, opening the way for the French army to advance on Reims unopposed, where Charles was crowned as the King of France with Joan at his side. These victories boosted French morale and paved the way for their final victory in the Hundred Years' War several decades later. After Charles's coronation, Joan participated in the unsuccessful siege of Paris in September 1429 and the failed siege of La Charité in November. Her role in these defeats reduced the court's faith in her calling. In early 1430, Joan organized a company of volunteers to relieve Compiègne, which had been besieged by the Burgundians—French allies of the English. She was captured by Burgundian troops on 23 May. After several attempts to escape, she was exchanged in November to the English. She was put on trial by Bishop Pierre Cauchon on accusations of heresy, which included blaspheming by wearing men's clothes, acting upon visions that were demonic, and refusing to submit her words and deeds to the judgement of the Church. She was declared guilty and burned at the stake on 30 May 1431, dying at about nineteen years of age. In 1456, an inquisitorial court reinvestigated Joan's trial. The court nullified the verdict, declaring that it was tainted by deceit and procedural errors, and she was exonerated. Joan has been viewed as an obedient daughter of the Roman Catholic Church, an early feminist, and a symbol of freedom and independence. She has been revered as a martyr. After the French Revolution she became a national symbol of France. She was canonized by the Roman Catholic Church in 1920, and declared one of the patron saints of France in 1922. Joan of Arc is portrayed in modern literature, painting, sculpture, music, and numerous other cultural works. |
Edited draft.
FARC continued commentary
What is all that fiddle-faddle in the Infobox, listed under Patronage, almost all unsourced?
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 04:42, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
Similarly, another infobox-induced idiocy is that the location of her beatification and canonization (St Peter's) is listed in the infobox, but not in the article, hence uncited.
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 04:46, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
Pernoud & Clin 1986, p. 165. Does not verify "earliest extant representation" as far as I can tell.
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 04:59, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
DeVries 1999, p. 31; Maddox 2012, p. 442. Harv error: link from CITEREFMaddox2012 doesn't point to any citation. Harv Ref error,
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 04:59, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
All addressed, SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 18:48, 21 August 2022 (UTC)