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Status Information

The following is a summary of where we are at with the FAR (as of February 19 2024). ~ Biz

Our goal with this FAR is to review all the content focused on WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:SS and exploring the latest scholarship. We expect this to take up most of calendar 2024. If you see a  Not done below, it means we need help!

  • Content status
    •  Doing... Page reorganisation: Ongoing as content is reviewed
    •  Done Nomenclature.
    •  Doing... History: review/rewrite completed until 717
    •  Not done Geography and demography: Created. Needs expansion.
    •  Done Society: Transition into an eastern Christian empire, Slavery, Socio-economic, Women, Language review/rewrite completed. More work could be done to employ WP:SS by creating, updating related articles. Education deserves further expansion as well beyond the current
    •  Doing... Government and military
      • Central government: Starting
      • Military. Created. Interim text added, will be expanded on.
      • Diplomacy: Consolidated with previous history text moved here, otherwise not reviewed.
      • Law: Not reviewed
      • Flags and insignia. Not reviewed.
    •  Not done Economy:
    •  Not done Architecture:
    •  Not done Daily life:
    •  Not done Arts:
    •  Not done Science and medicine:
    •  Not done Religion:
    •  Not done Legacy:
    •  Doing... References: sfn and sfnm are being employed and sources reviewed as part of this. When review complete sources not used will be removed. Several sources need better formatting
  • FAR issues previously identified
    •  Not done Ensure all the issues listed in SandyGeorgia's comments are addressed
    •  Not done Ensure all the images are sourced as per here
  • Length and alignment
    •  Not done Ensure every section has WP:SS employed with a main article included and one paragraph summary that aligns with the lead
    •  Not done If no main article exists and content exceeds one paragraph, consider creation of new main articles
Overview of the article
Section Word count December 10 2023 January 31 2024 Comments
Lead 571
Nomenclature 307 277
History 10,090 7,749
Geography and demography New
Society New 1,468
Government and military 924
Economy 418
Architecture New
Daily life New
Arts New
Science and medicine 528
Religion New
Culture 3536
Legacy 416
Subtotal 16,790 13,096

History

  • As a general comment for the entire history section, most of this content belongs on History of the Byzantine Empire
  • As a general comment, there is no reason why this section needs to be different to the Roman Empire article and should serve as inspiration
    • It is organised under three headings Transition from Republic to Empire, Pax Romana, Fall in the West and survival in the East.
  • Kaldellis (2023) regards Diocletian and his reforms the start of the "new Roman Empire" and the different 'administrations' between east and west to start differentiating and coalescing from 364 (ie, independence)
  • At 10,000 words, this section is too large. Compared to Roman Empire, it has way more headings. There is already an article History of the Byzantine Empire. All in all, we need a decision of how we want this section to look like and to what level of summary style it needs. Should we set a goal of making it 1000 words and let that guide how we approach it? Biz ( talk) 19:10, 10 December 2023 (UTC) reply
    Good work so far, you two. I'm a bit focused on other big article projects atm, but I'm still on call here, reading Kaldellis and am happy to perform or review anything if that would be useful. Remsense 留 00:32, 18 December 2023 (UTC) reply
    Hey @ Remsense no worries. I've gone through and tried to align the headings to the Roman Empire article. As part of this, I created a Geography and demography section. Might be a good one for maps that you can create? Could do with some additional content as well. Biz ( talk) 02:34, 19 December 2023 (UTC) reply
    Biz, do you have a specific map request? I'm currently ingesting the material provided by some mapmakers I like on here, and would like to try my hand implementing them. Remsense 留 02:26, 20 December 2023 (UTC) reply
    There's already quite a few maps on the article so not an easy question! But one thing that I think would be useful is being able to contextualise the change in territory from the time of Diocletian to 1453.
    For example, there's the animation in the info box which is great, but even though its been slowed down it's still hard to grasp what the Empire was. Separately, the maximum territory map under Justinian does not give any indication for how long that was so and does not really give you a sense of what was the stable state.
    Said another way, Space and time as an image :-) Something you can just stare at and at a glimpse understand the size of the Empire and the major changes that saw it reduce in size. While the GIF in the infobox theoretically does this, it actually doesn't. Biz ( talk) 03:01, 20 December 2023 (UTC) reply
    Here is an idea on how to do a map that gives better context. But do it in the reverse: when there was permanent loss by the empire. In one image it would give you the greatest extent and a sense of the stable state at different eras.
    https://www.facebook.com/100072251715849/posts/pfbid02qyHinVyRpoTqPCHfLXRrCNoxTw4ohBGL797LPEWpTSr856wn1jFRYJ9k8oSNDaLtl/?app=fbl Biz ( talk) 23:00, 31 December 2023 (UTC) reply
Although the section definitely needs to be drastically shortened, I think 1,000 words might be a bit too radical, as (to my mind) Byzantine history is less easily subdivided than that of the Roman Empire, and is twice as long. Perhaps 2,000–2,500, and then allow that to be cut down further if necessary? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 19:38, 10 December 2023 (UTC) reply
That's reasonable. Let's aim for 2000-2500 then.
Now my next question -- how do we approach this. This is more a decision on headings. For context here is the current word count under their headings:
  • Early history: 1026
  • Justinian dynasty: 1081
  • Arab invasions and shrinking borders: 1312
  • Macedonian dynasty and resurgence (867–1025): 2170
  • Crisis and fragmentation: 491
  • Komnenian dynasty and the Crusades: 1694
  • Decline and disintegration: 1282
  • Fall: 309
  • Political aftermath: 725
Biz ( talk) 19:45, 10 December 2023 (UTC) reply
For context, this is how Kaldellis and the Cambridge History approach it. The former in nine parts: 324–395, 395–518, 518–602, 602–685, 685–867, 867–1048, 1048–1204, 1204–1328, 1328–1461. The latter in three parts: c. 500–c. 700, c.700–1204, 1204–1492. I haven't got access to Treadgold at the moment.
Personally, I like the following scheme: pre-518, 518–c. 700, c. 700–867, 867–1204, 1204–"the end". ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 20:42, 10 December 2023 (UTC) reply
I just noticed the right box already has periods defined which also keep it simple.
  • Early period (330–717)
  • Middle period (717–1204)
  • Late period (1204–1453)
Might be best we align with that. Biz ( talk) 03:03, 13 December 2023 (UTC) reply
Also, on a meta-organisational point of view, I think we could streamline the organisation of this page a bit. If we're cutting the history section from 10,000 to 2,500 words or less, we don't really need the section-by-section analysis section above, as it's all going to be rewritten anyway. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 20:45, 10 December 2023 (UTC) reply
Agreed. I just started doing, and realised the error of this after so yes, I'll move it out.
As for your suggestion, let's start with that it's good enough and we can collapse or expand depending on the content. Biz ( talk) 21:31, 10 December 2023 (UTC) reply
As for next steps, should we copy the existing "history" and put it under in copy editing, and just start working on it? Biz ( talk) 21:37, 10 December 2023 (UTC) reply
We could just start reducing the article. No point beating about the bush. Is that fine Remsense? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 21:48, 10 December 2023 (UTC) reply
Ok we should notify talk as the article is watched closely and this may surprise.
I might toy around with re-writes and post them here but otherwise cut away! Biz ( talk) 00:31, 11 December 2023 (UTC) reply
AirshipJungleman29, certainly! I won't apologize for my tendency to dilly-dally, instead I'll hop into it also. :) Remsense 留 00:57, 11 December 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Thank you three for your effort with this! If there aren't objections, I can offer to rewrite "The arts" sections as they are certainly full of issues. As for the history section, its worth considering that the "Political aftermath" would better belong in the legacy section. Aza24 (talk) 08:04, 11 December 2023 (UTC) reply
    No objections! And that’s a great suggestion Biz ( talk) 13:16, 11 December 2023 (UTC) reply
  • I've made it to the end of the 11th century of Kaldellis (2023). @ Remsense how are you tracking? I'm on track to finish the book this year. Developing some fantastic new perspective on the history and covering my knowledge gaps. @ AirshipJungleman29, I commend you for taking this lead on the history rewrite. Up until today, I was feeling overwhelmed by the detail but now starting to see some themes we can weave as a broader narrative of this middle period between Justinian and the end of the Macedonian dynasty. Biz ( talk) 02:11, 26 December 2023 (UTC) reply
    Done. I've exported my highlights. It's going to take years for people to unpack this book... Biz ( talk) 14:11, 30 December 2023 (UTC) reply

Early history section

I've finished the rewrite of pre-518 events. As this section was not that bloated, and even missed out some fairly important information, there hasn't been much cutting (only ~100 words of prose), but instead I've been updating the citations to Greatrex/Kaldellis/Treadgold, making sure of source-text integrity etc. To make sure there's no accusation of undue weight etc. I've tried to limit the amount of information reliant on just one source of the three to statements like He was the last emperor to rule both the western and eastern halves of the empire. Copyediting would be appreciated, but please take care not to introduce implications or details not present in the cited sources. Next we have a seven-paragraph Justinian dynasty section, which I think could be reduced to two or three at most. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 17:58, 13 December 2023 (UTC) reply

You've done a fantastic job, thank you. I agree with the approach. Not familiar with Greatrex's work but he looks solid.
That particular statement glad you picked up on it -- he wasn't. There was also Theodosius II (425) and, nominally, Marcianus (456–457), and Leo I (457, 461, 465–467, 472–473), during vacancies in the West.
I'm about to do start some traveling so soon won't be available for the next few days, but I'll be checking where I can. Biz ( talk) 18:55, 13 December 2023 (UTC) reply
I have a question about tense. If its historiography, shouldn't we use the present tense? When Augustus ruled, nothing changed to everyone else -- it's only in retrospect that we say it changed for example.
Another point: Constantine called the new capital Nova Roma, and it was later renamed. Is this being too pedantic? Biz ( talk) 22:29, 13 December 2023 (UTC) reply
These may be points to consider when the article has been cut down in size, so that we can judge how justifiable their explication is in the briefer context. Remsense 留 07:17, 14 December 2023 (UTC) reply
I agree. If we (for example) compose a "Settlements" section... ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 12:34, 14 December 2023 (UTC) reply

Society

Languages

Status: Section has been reviewed, with just a few more source checks for the existing content left

* This section is 519 words

  • It does not talk about the complex interplay between Latin and Greek's evolution
  • It does reference the use of Latin for power but with inadequare sourcing
  • It makes reference to how Greek was used before and how it became more entrenched by the state, but does not explain why
  • It does reference how Latin faded out and how it was used for ceremony but does not explain why and how Greek sustained itself
  • It does reference other languages in the empire
  • It has three images, one of coptic and one of an 11th century manuscript; also one of spoken Greek in 1910.
    • This image talks about the different types of Greek but not in the article
  • It does not reference the different stages of how Greek was gradually adopted by the state following 212 other than a mention to Leo's legislation
  • It could do with a review and update to the scholarship. Below for reference:
    • "Apart from the Imperial court, administration and military, the primary language used in the eastern Roman provinces even before the decline of the Western Empire was Greek," Millar 2006, pp. 2, 15; James 2010, p. 5; Freeman 1999, pp. 431, 435–37, 459–62; Kaldellis 2007, pp. 2–3; * Kazhdan & Constable 1982, p. 12; Norwich 1998, p. 383.
    • Millar 2006, p. 279.
    • Bryce 1901, p. 59; McDonnell 2006, p. 77; Millar 2006, pp. 97–98; Oikonomides 1999, pp. 12–13.
    • Oikonomides 1999, pp. 12–13.
    • Rochette, "Language Policies in the Roman Republic and Empire," p. 560.
    • The Inheritance of Rome, Chris Wickham, Penguin Books Ltd. 2009, ISBN 978-0-670-02098-0. p. 90
    • Apostolides 1992, pp. 25–26; Wroth 1908, Introduction, Section 6
    • Sedlar 1994, pp. 403–440.
    • Harris 2014, p. 12
    • Beaton 1996, p. 10; Jones 1986, p. 991; Versteegh 1977, Chapter 1.
    • Campbell 2000, p. 40; Hacikyan et al. 2002, Part 1
    • Baynes 1907, p. 289; Gutas 1998, Chapter 7, Section 4; Comrie 1987, p. 129.
    • Byzantine Civilisation, Steven Runciman, Hodder & Stoughton Educational (1933) ISBN 978-0-7131-5316-3, p. 232
    • Harris 2014, p. 12
    • Beckwith 1993, p. 171; Halsall 1998; Oikonomides 1999, p. 20.
    • Kaldellis 2007, Chapter 6; Nicol 1993, Chapter 5.

Transition into an eastern Christian empire

Status: Largely reviewed, except for the new sources added on slavery recently

  • This is a new sections, from content that was moved out of history
  • It's been rewritten to focus on the political change and the religious change which along with language are the main aspects that distinguish Byzantium from the Roman Emopire. A recent editor added a paragraph on slavery which is also appropriate and is being reviewed

Women

Status: initial review has been performed with notes below

  • Liz James in 1997 wrote groundbreaking essays; followed by Alice-Mary Talbot, Angeliki Laiou, and Judith Herrin. Leonora Neville appears to be the most recent historian to cover this topic, but this entire field of women appears to be a new field of study so quite embryonic.
  • women's rights in comparison to men and other societies should be at minimum what is covered
  • the public presence of women professionally, in particular politics and the economy should also be covered in a way that is complimentary to the history section (ie, Theodora, Irene of Athens, as well as the sole rulers of later years)
  • The Roman Empire article instead has subheadings of Legal status with Women in Roman law, Slaves and the law, Freedmen under it which may be a better way to give balanced coverage on this one important dimension for women
  • The discussion of Gender (and how Leonora Neville covers it) is a more contemporary way to discuss women, but it then opens it up to Eunuchs, historians covering homosexuality, and western perceptions of Byzantium as effeminate.
    • "Not enough people study Byzantine gender for there to be much consensus" [1]
    • "The effect of this pervasive misapprehension of the data is perhaps greater on the study of masculinity because scholars have hardly ever taken male gender as a topic for inquiry. We tend to study women, sometimes eunuchs, but most of the time simply “Byzantines,” by which we mean Medieval Roman men. We generally have not been attuned to how texts denigrate or praise a man’s character through descriptions of his performance of gender. Stories that I would see as designed to exalt or denigrate a man’s masculinity appear in our scholarship as just stories about things that really happened. When we start paying attention to masculinity as a category of analysis, I expect that some of our basic political narratives will change."" [2]
    • "Most working Byzantinists think the old derogatory images of Byzantium have long been recognized as wrong and are no longer relevant. Few of them think that their research has much of anything to do with gender, which is still occasionally confused with the history of women. Assumptions and prejudices of which we are unconscious are the ones most likely to deceive us. Given that most Byzantinists think gender has no bearing on their work, they are likely to be oblivious to the ways assumptions about Byzantine gender play out in their research. We have not begun to confront the reality that the Western denigration of Byzantium is a discourse about gender." [3]

Comment:

  • There needs to be something, somewhere that covers women's socio-economic rights (which were equal to men), political rights and vocations (both not equal) as this is the original intent of this section. I propose mimicking the structure of the Roman Empire article and rewriting this section with more recent sources I propose making a new heading, like "People and their rights" and break it out as socio-economic, political, and vocations and professions with mention of women, men, slaves, coloni, and eunuchs in each section where appropriate. The Roman Empire article is using a Marxist approach which is out-dated. Biz ( talk)
  • the topic of gender seems to be a topic in itself different from the above and what is driving the scholarship. It deserves its own section but I'm concerned about Leonora Neville's opinion that there is not enough consensus on this emerging field. Do we still cover it? Biz ( talk)
    • "What can we say about women's lives in Byzantium?", asks the jacket copy. From this volume, we can find out some things about women's lives, but that does not seem to be the primary purpose of the editor or of a number of the authors" is the review by Angeliki Laiou of Women, Men and Eunuchs; Gender in Byzantium by Liz James [4] Biz ( talk)
    • The iconoclasm is a major topic we need to cover in this article, which also is a major reason we start calling the Byzantine Empire as such from the 8th century, and a discussion of gender needs to be covered Biz ( talk)
    • This might be better placed under a section for Historiography Biz ( talk)
  1. ^ Neville, Leonora (2019-06-30). Byzantine Gender. Amsterdam University Press. p. 2. ISBN  978-1-64189-017-5.
  2. ^ Neville, Leonora (2019-06-30). Byzantine Gender. Amsterdam University Press. p. 13. ISBN  978-1-64189-017-5.
  3. ^ Neville, Leonora (2019-06-30). Byzantine Gender. Amsterdam University Press. p. 7. ISBN  978-1-64189-017-5.
  4. ^ Laiou, Angeliki E. (2000). "Review of Women, Men and Eunuchs; Gender in Byzantium". International Journal of the Classical Tradition. 7 (2): 287–289. ISSN  1073-0508.
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia_talk:Featured_article_review/Byzantine_Empire/archive3&oldid=1208979456"
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Status Information

The following is a summary of where we are at with the FAR (as of February 19 2024). ~ Biz

Our goal with this FAR is to review all the content focused on WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:SS and exploring the latest scholarship. We expect this to take up most of calendar 2024. If you see a  Not done below, it means we need help!

  • Content status
    •  Doing... Page reorganisation: Ongoing as content is reviewed
    •  Done Nomenclature.
    •  Doing... History: review/rewrite completed until 717
    •  Not done Geography and demography: Created. Needs expansion.
    •  Done Society: Transition into an eastern Christian empire, Slavery, Socio-economic, Women, Language review/rewrite completed. More work could be done to employ WP:SS by creating, updating related articles. Education deserves further expansion as well beyond the current
    •  Doing... Government and military
      • Central government: Starting
      • Military. Created. Interim text added, will be expanded on.
      • Diplomacy: Consolidated with previous history text moved here, otherwise not reviewed.
      • Law: Not reviewed
      • Flags and insignia. Not reviewed.
    •  Not done Economy:
    •  Not done Architecture:
    •  Not done Daily life:
    •  Not done Arts:
    •  Not done Science and medicine:
    •  Not done Religion:
    •  Not done Legacy:
    •  Doing... References: sfn and sfnm are being employed and sources reviewed as part of this. When review complete sources not used will be removed. Several sources need better formatting
  • FAR issues previously identified
    •  Not done Ensure all the issues listed in SandyGeorgia's comments are addressed
    •  Not done Ensure all the images are sourced as per here
  • Length and alignment
    •  Not done Ensure every section has WP:SS employed with a main article included and one paragraph summary that aligns with the lead
    •  Not done If no main article exists and content exceeds one paragraph, consider creation of new main articles
Overview of the article
Section Word count December 10 2023 January 31 2024 Comments
Lead 571
Nomenclature 307 277
History 10,090 7,749
Geography and demography New
Society New 1,468
Government and military 924
Economy 418
Architecture New
Daily life New
Arts New
Science and medicine 528
Religion New
Culture 3536
Legacy 416
Subtotal 16,790 13,096

History

  • As a general comment for the entire history section, most of this content belongs on History of the Byzantine Empire
  • As a general comment, there is no reason why this section needs to be different to the Roman Empire article and should serve as inspiration
    • It is organised under three headings Transition from Republic to Empire, Pax Romana, Fall in the West and survival in the East.
  • Kaldellis (2023) regards Diocletian and his reforms the start of the "new Roman Empire" and the different 'administrations' between east and west to start differentiating and coalescing from 364 (ie, independence)
  • At 10,000 words, this section is too large. Compared to Roman Empire, it has way more headings. There is already an article History of the Byzantine Empire. All in all, we need a decision of how we want this section to look like and to what level of summary style it needs. Should we set a goal of making it 1000 words and let that guide how we approach it? Biz ( talk) 19:10, 10 December 2023 (UTC) reply
    Good work so far, you two. I'm a bit focused on other big article projects atm, but I'm still on call here, reading Kaldellis and am happy to perform or review anything if that would be useful. Remsense 留 00:32, 18 December 2023 (UTC) reply
    Hey @ Remsense no worries. I've gone through and tried to align the headings to the Roman Empire article. As part of this, I created a Geography and demography section. Might be a good one for maps that you can create? Could do with some additional content as well. Biz ( talk) 02:34, 19 December 2023 (UTC) reply
    Biz, do you have a specific map request? I'm currently ingesting the material provided by some mapmakers I like on here, and would like to try my hand implementing them. Remsense 留 02:26, 20 December 2023 (UTC) reply
    There's already quite a few maps on the article so not an easy question! But one thing that I think would be useful is being able to contextualise the change in territory from the time of Diocletian to 1453.
    For example, there's the animation in the info box which is great, but even though its been slowed down it's still hard to grasp what the Empire was. Separately, the maximum territory map under Justinian does not give any indication for how long that was so and does not really give you a sense of what was the stable state.
    Said another way, Space and time as an image :-) Something you can just stare at and at a glimpse understand the size of the Empire and the major changes that saw it reduce in size. While the GIF in the infobox theoretically does this, it actually doesn't. Biz ( talk) 03:01, 20 December 2023 (UTC) reply
    Here is an idea on how to do a map that gives better context. But do it in the reverse: when there was permanent loss by the empire. In one image it would give you the greatest extent and a sense of the stable state at different eras.
    https://www.facebook.com/100072251715849/posts/pfbid02qyHinVyRpoTqPCHfLXRrCNoxTw4ohBGL797LPEWpTSr856wn1jFRYJ9k8oSNDaLtl/?app=fbl Biz ( talk) 23:00, 31 December 2023 (UTC) reply
Although the section definitely needs to be drastically shortened, I think 1,000 words might be a bit too radical, as (to my mind) Byzantine history is less easily subdivided than that of the Roman Empire, and is twice as long. Perhaps 2,000–2,500, and then allow that to be cut down further if necessary? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 19:38, 10 December 2023 (UTC) reply
That's reasonable. Let's aim for 2000-2500 then.
Now my next question -- how do we approach this. This is more a decision on headings. For context here is the current word count under their headings:
  • Early history: 1026
  • Justinian dynasty: 1081
  • Arab invasions and shrinking borders: 1312
  • Macedonian dynasty and resurgence (867–1025): 2170
  • Crisis and fragmentation: 491
  • Komnenian dynasty and the Crusades: 1694
  • Decline and disintegration: 1282
  • Fall: 309
  • Political aftermath: 725
Biz ( talk) 19:45, 10 December 2023 (UTC) reply
For context, this is how Kaldellis and the Cambridge History approach it. The former in nine parts: 324–395, 395–518, 518–602, 602–685, 685–867, 867–1048, 1048–1204, 1204–1328, 1328–1461. The latter in three parts: c. 500–c. 700, c.700–1204, 1204–1492. I haven't got access to Treadgold at the moment.
Personally, I like the following scheme: pre-518, 518–c. 700, c. 700–867, 867–1204, 1204–"the end". ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 20:42, 10 December 2023 (UTC) reply
I just noticed the right box already has periods defined which also keep it simple.
  • Early period (330–717)
  • Middle period (717–1204)
  • Late period (1204–1453)
Might be best we align with that. Biz ( talk) 03:03, 13 December 2023 (UTC) reply
Also, on a meta-organisational point of view, I think we could streamline the organisation of this page a bit. If we're cutting the history section from 10,000 to 2,500 words or less, we don't really need the section-by-section analysis section above, as it's all going to be rewritten anyway. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 20:45, 10 December 2023 (UTC) reply
Agreed. I just started doing, and realised the error of this after so yes, I'll move it out.
As for your suggestion, let's start with that it's good enough and we can collapse or expand depending on the content. Biz ( talk) 21:31, 10 December 2023 (UTC) reply
As for next steps, should we copy the existing "history" and put it under in copy editing, and just start working on it? Biz ( talk) 21:37, 10 December 2023 (UTC) reply
We could just start reducing the article. No point beating about the bush. Is that fine Remsense? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 21:48, 10 December 2023 (UTC) reply
Ok we should notify talk as the article is watched closely and this may surprise.
I might toy around with re-writes and post them here but otherwise cut away! Biz ( talk) 00:31, 11 December 2023 (UTC) reply
AirshipJungleman29, certainly! I won't apologize for my tendency to dilly-dally, instead I'll hop into it also. :) Remsense 留 00:57, 11 December 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Thank you three for your effort with this! If there aren't objections, I can offer to rewrite "The arts" sections as they are certainly full of issues. As for the history section, its worth considering that the "Political aftermath" would better belong in the legacy section. Aza24 (talk) 08:04, 11 December 2023 (UTC) reply
    No objections! And that’s a great suggestion Biz ( talk) 13:16, 11 December 2023 (UTC) reply
  • I've made it to the end of the 11th century of Kaldellis (2023). @ Remsense how are you tracking? I'm on track to finish the book this year. Developing some fantastic new perspective on the history and covering my knowledge gaps. @ AirshipJungleman29, I commend you for taking this lead on the history rewrite. Up until today, I was feeling overwhelmed by the detail but now starting to see some themes we can weave as a broader narrative of this middle period between Justinian and the end of the Macedonian dynasty. Biz ( talk) 02:11, 26 December 2023 (UTC) reply
    Done. I've exported my highlights. It's going to take years for people to unpack this book... Biz ( talk) 14:11, 30 December 2023 (UTC) reply

Early history section

I've finished the rewrite of pre-518 events. As this section was not that bloated, and even missed out some fairly important information, there hasn't been much cutting (only ~100 words of prose), but instead I've been updating the citations to Greatrex/Kaldellis/Treadgold, making sure of source-text integrity etc. To make sure there's no accusation of undue weight etc. I've tried to limit the amount of information reliant on just one source of the three to statements like He was the last emperor to rule both the western and eastern halves of the empire. Copyediting would be appreciated, but please take care not to introduce implications or details not present in the cited sources. Next we have a seven-paragraph Justinian dynasty section, which I think could be reduced to two or three at most. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 17:58, 13 December 2023 (UTC) reply

You've done a fantastic job, thank you. I agree with the approach. Not familiar with Greatrex's work but he looks solid.
That particular statement glad you picked up on it -- he wasn't. There was also Theodosius II (425) and, nominally, Marcianus (456–457), and Leo I (457, 461, 465–467, 472–473), during vacancies in the West.
I'm about to do start some traveling so soon won't be available for the next few days, but I'll be checking where I can. Biz ( talk) 18:55, 13 December 2023 (UTC) reply
I have a question about tense. If its historiography, shouldn't we use the present tense? When Augustus ruled, nothing changed to everyone else -- it's only in retrospect that we say it changed for example.
Another point: Constantine called the new capital Nova Roma, and it was later renamed. Is this being too pedantic? Biz ( talk) 22:29, 13 December 2023 (UTC) reply
These may be points to consider when the article has been cut down in size, so that we can judge how justifiable their explication is in the briefer context. Remsense 留 07:17, 14 December 2023 (UTC) reply
I agree. If we (for example) compose a "Settlements" section... ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 12:34, 14 December 2023 (UTC) reply

Society

Languages

Status: Section has been reviewed, with just a few more source checks for the existing content left

* This section is 519 words

  • It does not talk about the complex interplay between Latin and Greek's evolution
  • It does reference the use of Latin for power but with inadequare sourcing
  • It makes reference to how Greek was used before and how it became more entrenched by the state, but does not explain why
  • It does reference how Latin faded out and how it was used for ceremony but does not explain why and how Greek sustained itself
  • It does reference other languages in the empire
  • It has three images, one of coptic and one of an 11th century manuscript; also one of spoken Greek in 1910.
    • This image talks about the different types of Greek but not in the article
  • It does not reference the different stages of how Greek was gradually adopted by the state following 212 other than a mention to Leo's legislation
  • It could do with a review and update to the scholarship. Below for reference:
    • "Apart from the Imperial court, administration and military, the primary language used in the eastern Roman provinces even before the decline of the Western Empire was Greek," Millar 2006, pp. 2, 15; James 2010, p. 5; Freeman 1999, pp. 431, 435–37, 459–62; Kaldellis 2007, pp. 2–3; * Kazhdan & Constable 1982, p. 12; Norwich 1998, p. 383.
    • Millar 2006, p. 279.
    • Bryce 1901, p. 59; McDonnell 2006, p. 77; Millar 2006, pp. 97–98; Oikonomides 1999, pp. 12–13.
    • Oikonomides 1999, pp. 12–13.
    • Rochette, "Language Policies in the Roman Republic and Empire," p. 560.
    • The Inheritance of Rome, Chris Wickham, Penguin Books Ltd. 2009, ISBN 978-0-670-02098-0. p. 90
    • Apostolides 1992, pp. 25–26; Wroth 1908, Introduction, Section 6
    • Sedlar 1994, pp. 403–440.
    • Harris 2014, p. 12
    • Beaton 1996, p. 10; Jones 1986, p. 991; Versteegh 1977, Chapter 1.
    • Campbell 2000, p. 40; Hacikyan et al. 2002, Part 1
    • Baynes 1907, p. 289; Gutas 1998, Chapter 7, Section 4; Comrie 1987, p. 129.
    • Byzantine Civilisation, Steven Runciman, Hodder & Stoughton Educational (1933) ISBN 978-0-7131-5316-3, p. 232
    • Harris 2014, p. 12
    • Beckwith 1993, p. 171; Halsall 1998; Oikonomides 1999, p. 20.
    • Kaldellis 2007, Chapter 6; Nicol 1993, Chapter 5.

Transition into an eastern Christian empire

Status: Largely reviewed, except for the new sources added on slavery recently

  • This is a new sections, from content that was moved out of history
  • It's been rewritten to focus on the political change and the religious change which along with language are the main aspects that distinguish Byzantium from the Roman Emopire. A recent editor added a paragraph on slavery which is also appropriate and is being reviewed

Women

Status: initial review has been performed with notes below

  • Liz James in 1997 wrote groundbreaking essays; followed by Alice-Mary Talbot, Angeliki Laiou, and Judith Herrin. Leonora Neville appears to be the most recent historian to cover this topic, but this entire field of women appears to be a new field of study so quite embryonic.
  • women's rights in comparison to men and other societies should be at minimum what is covered
  • the public presence of women professionally, in particular politics and the economy should also be covered in a way that is complimentary to the history section (ie, Theodora, Irene of Athens, as well as the sole rulers of later years)
  • The Roman Empire article instead has subheadings of Legal status with Women in Roman law, Slaves and the law, Freedmen under it which may be a better way to give balanced coverage on this one important dimension for women
  • The discussion of Gender (and how Leonora Neville covers it) is a more contemporary way to discuss women, but it then opens it up to Eunuchs, historians covering homosexuality, and western perceptions of Byzantium as effeminate.
    • "Not enough people study Byzantine gender for there to be much consensus" [1]
    • "The effect of this pervasive misapprehension of the data is perhaps greater on the study of masculinity because scholars have hardly ever taken male gender as a topic for inquiry. We tend to study women, sometimes eunuchs, but most of the time simply “Byzantines,” by which we mean Medieval Roman men. We generally have not been attuned to how texts denigrate or praise a man’s character through descriptions of his performance of gender. Stories that I would see as designed to exalt or denigrate a man’s masculinity appear in our scholarship as just stories about things that really happened. When we start paying attention to masculinity as a category of analysis, I expect that some of our basic political narratives will change."" [2]
    • "Most working Byzantinists think the old derogatory images of Byzantium have long been recognized as wrong and are no longer relevant. Few of them think that their research has much of anything to do with gender, which is still occasionally confused with the history of women. Assumptions and prejudices of which we are unconscious are the ones most likely to deceive us. Given that most Byzantinists think gender has no bearing on their work, they are likely to be oblivious to the ways assumptions about Byzantine gender play out in their research. We have not begun to confront the reality that the Western denigration of Byzantium is a discourse about gender." [3]

Comment:

  • There needs to be something, somewhere that covers women's socio-economic rights (which were equal to men), political rights and vocations (both not equal) as this is the original intent of this section. I propose mimicking the structure of the Roman Empire article and rewriting this section with more recent sources I propose making a new heading, like "People and their rights" and break it out as socio-economic, political, and vocations and professions with mention of women, men, slaves, coloni, and eunuchs in each section where appropriate. The Roman Empire article is using a Marxist approach which is out-dated. Biz ( talk)
  • the topic of gender seems to be a topic in itself different from the above and what is driving the scholarship. It deserves its own section but I'm concerned about Leonora Neville's opinion that there is not enough consensus on this emerging field. Do we still cover it? Biz ( talk)
    • "What can we say about women's lives in Byzantium?", asks the jacket copy. From this volume, we can find out some things about women's lives, but that does not seem to be the primary purpose of the editor or of a number of the authors" is the review by Angeliki Laiou of Women, Men and Eunuchs; Gender in Byzantium by Liz James [4] Biz ( talk)
    • The iconoclasm is a major topic we need to cover in this article, which also is a major reason we start calling the Byzantine Empire as such from the 8th century, and a discussion of gender needs to be covered Biz ( talk)
    • This might be better placed under a section for Historiography Biz ( talk)
  1. ^ Neville, Leonora (2019-06-30). Byzantine Gender. Amsterdam University Press. p. 2. ISBN  978-1-64189-017-5.
  2. ^ Neville, Leonora (2019-06-30). Byzantine Gender. Amsterdam University Press. p. 13. ISBN  978-1-64189-017-5.
  3. ^ Neville, Leonora (2019-06-30). Byzantine Gender. Amsterdam University Press. p. 7. ISBN  978-1-64189-017-5.
  4. ^ Laiou, Angeliki E. (2000). "Review of Women, Men and Eunuchs; Gender in Byzantium". International Journal of the Classical Tradition. 7 (2): 287–289. ISSN  1073-0508.
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