Essays Low‑impact | ||||||||||
|
I was passing by The Tranhumanist's talk page, and I noticed this. Hope you don't mind me adding this comment. I have participated in a number of AfDs, though I'm not a regular there. I might sit in on this classroom as it could be interesting. Have you or TH considered getting the views of other AfD regulars, such as Uncle G?
About editing the page, can we correct typos? :-) Carcharoth 00:23, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I stumbled onto this page the same way - it made for a very interesting read, I like your work. One question - I like the fact that you emphasize "In many cases, an article can be improved by adding sourced, rewriting, or other corrective measures rather than deletion." I think that another way an article can be improved is by deleting questionable sections of it, since these sections bring down the credibility of the whole article. I've seen a couple of instances where an article with good and bad sections gets deleted due to a stack of "Delete, contains X" !votes, and some good material ends up being lost in the process.
The way I see it, "contains OR/copyvio/etc" shouldn't be a criteria for deleting the whole article - it should be a criteria for deleting the revelant sections. After that, the article can be re-evaluated, based on its size:
I'm still making this up as I go, to be honest, but I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts on the matter. Quack 688 22:46, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
THe problem with copyvios is the editing history. Since it has to remain, and since it still contains the copyvios, the liability remains. What I prefer to do is save any parts that aren't copy vio, get the thing deleted, and create a fresh stub with sources for expansion. -- Elar a girl Talk| Count 13:52, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
One other question - I was doing the tourist thing, browsing through a few policy pages when I found WP:CLEANUP. By its description, it was originally intended for formatting or clarity issues, but quite a few of the nominations there are for articles that need more significant problems fixed.
Putting something on AfD certainly generates a lively discussion, but I think it'd be good for both "sides" if some articles that need significant work, but are about a notable topic, were listed on WP:CLEANUP instead of straight on AfD. Inclusionists caould have a chance to improve on the articles without getting paranoid about the "deletionist cabal out to destroy them (and their kittens)". If no-one bothers improving it for a while, then it can be taken to AfD, and the nominator can show that they've put out a good faith call to improve the article, but no-one picked up the phone. Would you consider mentioning its existence somewhere in your essay? Are there other versions of this list somewhere for more serious problems that might deserve a mention? If not, would you support using this list as a prelude to AfD, or do you believe it should be kept just for formatting/clarity issues, and a new "fix this now or it's going to AfD" list should be created instead? Quack 688 06:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
That shows some of what I am suggesting is at User:Elaragirl/DeleteArticle2. There are three main pieces to the article:
I also would suggest using <ref> and </ref> tags and and make footnotes using <references/>to put some important caveats and tips in footnotes so they do not break up the flow of the text. I also think that instead of just linking to the instructions for putting an article up for AfD/XfD, also include a very stripped down set of steps such as 1. 2. 3. for what to do. Then the reader already can understand the procedure before they have to fight their way through the excess verbiage. It always helps to understand the procedure before you try to learn it in detail. Otherwise it just seems like a blizzard of crap. Actually even with this it will still seem like a blizzard of crap, but I hope it will make i seem a little clearer this way. -- Filll 05:40, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Bellissima Elara! - sorry, I've got Giulio Cesare on the CD player! I think it should be explained that it is pretty pointless whacking a PROD tag on top of an article a newbie has just created. If you can't speedy it, then in practice - even if it is egregiously promotion for someone semi-notable, then take it to AFD, bypassing PROD, as the newbie will be guaranteed to fight tooth and nail and remove the prod. Nobody likes having their stuff deleted, least of all newbies.
Also, pardon me if I missed this, but one should always notify the creator if you PROD or AFD an article, and usually for CSD as well. Is this mentioned? There are plenty of appropriate templates. Mind you, if someone creates something you just tagged with db-nonsense or db-vandal, then - others may disagree - there is little point in wasting your time on what is basically a glorified vandal. Cheers, Moreschi 15:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I think the section on inclusionism and deletionism is a pretty skewed depiction of the state of affairs. Take for instance the statement "Deletionists bitterly dislike the principle of rules like WP:IAR and statements that Wikipedia is not Paper". That's simply not the case and is a fairly lame way to present the issue. This is not so different than saying inclusionists bitterly dislike the principle that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information because it prevents Wikipedia from really being the sum of all human knowledge or that they loathe the guidelines on reliable sources because it leads to removal of content.
In any case, nothing is to be gained by presenting the issue as if deletionists or inclusionists are acting like ideological crusaders who spend all their time on AfD without reasoning. Not only is that counter-productive, I also find it to be completely out-of-touch with reality. I have a deletionist userbox on my user page (which by the way, or so I learned, is enough to disqualify me as a potential admin) yet this simply represents the way I tend to lean on in AfDs in which I choose to participate. There is no Great Struggle of Inclusionism vs Deletionism. There are simply different editors, with various thresholds in mind of what they consider as acceptable and valuable content on Wikipedia, they are all acting in good faith and they all have the best interests of the project at heart. That section is ruining an otherwise interesting page. Pascal.Tesson 06:41, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I think there are various problems with this section; the criticisms of both inclusionists and deletionists are essentially stupid ones (although they are indeed common ones), and the statistics as to the number of both inclusionists and deletionists are not remotely accurate. Every Wikipedia editor falls somewhere along the Inclusionist-Deletionist continuum, even if many don't know the terms, we all have our own attitudes and beliefs as to what our policies should be and what should or shouldn't belong. And, from what I've observed in the WP:IAR talk page, it is the inclusionists, in fact, who dislike IAR, at least at the moment. -- Xyzzyplugh 00:09, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the whole deletionism-inclusionism debate is a false dichotomy. Wikipedia, as a non-paper encyclopedia, ought to include all established and verifiable human knowledge. This clearly excludes incoherent pages, spam, things made up in school one day, and bands that have released no albums; at the same time, it clearly includes things like webcomics, bit-part actors in films, and minor fictional characters, all of which I have seen nominated for deletion. The problem is that the 'deletionist culture' is becoming too prevalent; I now spend more time on XfDs and speedy deletes than I do actually writing articles, as it's now virtually impossible to write anything without someone slamming it as original research or fancruft, while deletion nominations seem to be welcomed with open arms. At the moment, sadly, it seems to be that the burden of proof is on the author of an article to prove that their contributions are worth keeping, rather than on the would-be deleter to prove that their contributions are invalid/a waste of space. As a result, the encyclopedia is poorer. I wouldn't call myself an inclusionist: I spend a lot of time tagging nonsense pages for speedy deletion, nominating AfDs, and reverting vandalism, and all of these things are valuable (the encyclopedia needs to be 'pruned' at times). But we need to get back in sight of the goal of Wikipedia; to be a resource that contains as much information, albeit organised, sourced and well-written, as possible. Walton monarchist89 16:15, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
By the way, I know the above completely contradicts what I stated on the Village pump yesterday. I'm allowed to change my mind. Walton monarchist89 16:15, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I apologise if I came across as implying that I understand policy and the rest of the community does not - this was not my intention. Rather, I was trying to suggest that the policy itself is wrong and should be changed. Please don't interpret this as an attack on the rest of the community, or deletionists in particular - I'm sorry if it seemed that way. I also understand what User:Elaragirl is saying about the relative importance, or unimportance, of certain pages, and I absolutely agree that Economics is more important than Bob's Webcomic, and that expert editors should focus their time on editing and improving the most important articles. I just don't necessarily think there's a contradiction between the two priorities. Wikipedia is unlimited in physical size, i.e. there is no limit to the number of articles that can be included; so if "Bob" (or his real-life equivalent) really wants to create an article on his webcomic (as it may, quite plausibly, be the only thing he has expert knowledge about), where's the harm in that? I totally agree that it would be a waste of time for expert editors to spend their life categorising/stubmarking/extending articles such as "Bob's Webcomic". But isn't it just as much of a waste of their time to AfD/prod/speedy delete "Bob's Webcomic", when they could, as you say, be improving Economics or another major article that people actually read? (Sorry I keep repeating your theoretical examples, but I don't have the imagination to do otherwise). Once again, I'm sorry if my ideas came across as arrogant/an attack; that wasn't the idea, and I don't necessarily think that I'm "right" and everyone else is "wrong". I try to be open minded; I recognise that some other users have been working here a lot longer than I have, and if other people put forward good points, I'm quite willing to modify my opinion. Nor am I seeking to force anyone else to agree with me. Walton monarchist89 19:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
(Question copied here from The Transhumanist's user page, since it is relevant to this topic):
I have seen you around here on Wikipedia and have noted that you are among the more intelligent of Wikipedians (your work with virtual classroooms is outstanding). I've had this issue bugging me for a while but I wasn't sure who I could talk to about it. After reading your profile, I think you might know how to deal with this issue.
Recently, it seems that many high-quality articles are up for deletion quite often. Yes, there are the dozens upon dozens that are blatant advertising or spam, but now a large number a day seem to be up for deletion. I'm not sure what I (or anyone) can do about this.
Lost and confused, S h a r k f a c e 2 1 7 01:48, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
It comes in two basic forms on Wikipedia...
The most prevalent form of censorship on Wikipedia currently is deletionism, which is the Wikiphilosophy that holds that if an article isn't complete (or good) enough, it isn't ready to be displayed on Wikipedia. In the face of the vast number of stub articles on Wikipedia, and the fact that many of our volunteers make small contributions at a time, this approach is rather absurd. One argument for deletionism is that Wikipedia is mirrored all over the internet, such as on http://answers.com, and therefore it should hold to professional publishing standards and only provide finished (polished) product.
One counter argument is that Wikipedia is a work in progress being constructed by volunteers (that is, it relies entirely on volunteers to build it), therefore it should take advantage of any work (contributions) which volunteers make, regardless of how small. When additions are removed, they aren't there for others to work on and build upon (or for others to read!), so in this sense, it's taking a step backwards; but more significantly, it harms Wikipedia by disallowing collaboration.
Collaboration on Wikipedia for the most part consists of multiple users contributing to an article, but this becomes difficult if articles are removed for insufficient content - you can't build upon what isn't there! The easiest way for editors to find each other to collaborate is by going to the article they are interested in. Many may not know about draft hosting nor know how to find a draft hosted in someone's userspace. Deletionism unbuilds Wikipedia. It's like there's an unwritten rule that if you don't give a certain amount of material at one time (a whole article), you can't give at all.
Noteworthiness is another major issue for deletionists, in which they favor the mainstream. So if an article isn't noteworthy in the general sense even though it may be noteworthy in the field to which it pertains, it may have some trouble getting past the deletionists. Fortunately, the deletionists are opposed by the inclusionists and incrementalists... and by the vast number of contributors to Wikipedia - currently, there are just too many people adding material to Wikipedia for the deletionists to keep up with. See meta:Conflicting Wikipedia philosophies, meta:Deletionism and meta:Inclusionism.
The second and more insidious form of censorship on Wikipedia is information suppression. This is when users delete articles they don't agree with or because the articles don't support their agenda. It is akin to book banning (and burning). It's harder to spot, because the censors don't cite the real reasons why they are trying to delete the articles. From what I have observed, it appears that the policy used the most as the basis for such deletions is Wikipedia:Verify. Since citing sources is policy (mandatory), and because most of Wikipedia doesn't cite sources (and is therefore in violation of policy by default), WP:VER is the most readily available weapon for censors. The only effective defense against this argument for deletion is to provide references (that is, actually do the research, find, and post the references in the article). See: Wikipedia:Censorship and WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not censored.
What's the solution? The solution is: Vigilance...
Deletionism is easy to deal with. The deletionists love Wikipedia every bit as much as the rest of us. They're not against additions to Wikipedia per se, just additions that aren't up to their standards. The solution for articles which aren't complete enough is to complete them. The solution for non-noteworthy articles is to provide references of their noteworthiness; failing that, save them off-line or in your userspace until they become noteworthy.
Information suppression is harder to deal with. Censorship isn't allowed on Wikipedia, so if someone really is purging material from Wikipedia due to some bias or special interest, then an RFC can be started once enough evidence of policy violation is gathered concerning his or her behavior. But that is a lengthy process. In the meantime, more damage is being done, and has to be opposed directly. The only way to solve the problem of censorship is to fight it at every level...
In the deletion debates, you've got to address whatever the reasons given for deletion are and fix the article so that they no longer apply. Once done, make sure you place a note at the top of the deletion debate for the closing admin pointing this out. Otherwise, the admin might just count the votes and not even check the article. If everyone's concerns are met, then the consensus is to keep.
Beyond the debates, articles which aren't "salted" (protected) can be re-created (that is, rewritten) from scratch.
Material may be relevant in other articles, so the parts that are can be included in those articles. But to re-use information in such a way, it is of paramount importance TO SAVE A COPY OF THE ARTICLE BEFORE IT IS DELETED.
Articles can also be revived, fixed, and submitted to Wikipedia:Deletion review. In support of this effort, you can save the original article off-line, or in your userspace. If you don't make it in time, don't panic -- you can request that an admin make a copy of the article to your userspace for draft purposes (admins have access to Wikipedia's deleted articles). This can be a pain, so it's best to make a copy beforehand. Once the article has been approved for reinsertion into the encyclopedia, contact an admin to restore the original article along with its complete history. To adhere to the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, the license under which Wikipedia content is created, each page in Wikipedia must be attributed to its authors (and they, along with their contributions, are all recorded in a page's history). To keep a page's history intact you've got to get the original back out of the deletion graveyard, and that's done through Deletion Review. This shouldn't be a problem if you've addressed all the objections posed in the page's deletion debate, and fixed each problem.
At the risk of sounding redundant, the best defense against censorship/deletion is to save a copy. So if there is an article you are worried about, save a copy of it right away. If you put it off too long, you may be caught off-guard by a red-link. If you do come across a red-link for which you know there was a good article there before, look up its deletion debate to see if you can do anything about it. If fixable, edit the article, and submit it to Deletion review.
While there may be nothing you can do to keep censors off of Wikipedia, it is your duty as a Wikipedian to fight censorship wherever you find it on Wikipedia. The only way to beat censorship is to fight it, and that means get the word out. Be ready to repost the information in some form somewhere. Also don't let censors operate in a vacuum. Bring their activities, or the material in question, to the attention of others. There are forums all over Wikipedia for this. See: Wikipedia:Requests for comment#Request comment on articles, Wikipedia:Requests for feedback, and Wikipedia:Third opinion.
I hope this helps. Go get 'em!
Sincerely, The Transhumanist 05:47, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
(copied to here from user pages, by --The Transhumanist)...
Hey Pascal,
For some reason, many deletionists have really be egging me lately. You are one of the few self-proclaimed deletionists who goes out of his way to make Wikipedia a better place and you don't seem to fit the deletionist stereotype, as I've seen you try to save several articles.
Anyway, after spending a few months here on Wikipedia and many hours in WP:XFD, I've come to think that many deletionists are just too lazy to contribute by adding new information. I don't know whether this opinion is misguided or not (and if I ever ran for RFA, I'm sure this will come back to bite me), but it seems that many of those who claim they are deletionists would rather just stay in WP:AFD and !vote "delete" down much of the list instead of adding new information to Wikipedia. To mask their laziness, they use the guise of the Wiki-philosophy Deletionism. Why improve an article when you can point out its faults and then delete it?
Confused and in need of advice,
S h a r k f a c e 2 1 7 03:16, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Good evening ( GMT time); I was wondering if there is a policy and guideline resource you actively refer to when XfDing, or if you reccommend any sure-fast resources that can be used to justify your opinion at a XfD?
Kind regards,
anthonycfc [
talk 00:21, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I disagree that one shouldn't post brief "delete per nom" or "delete per policy" votes. Frequently deletion is the obvious choice, and the nominator has already thoroughly explained why. However, AfD debates frequently end up getting relisted because they didn't get enough responses, or consensus wasn't reached. If only one person votes Delete along with the nominator, article may get relisted, so even one additional "delete per nom" can save the trouble of relisting. In addition, if there are only two delete votes, and someone comes along and just types "keep" with no reasoning, article could get relisted. "Delete per nom", while being a bit lazy, can be useful. -- Xyzzyplugh 23:59, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Comment: Note that most articles do not (yet) have references included. This brings up the obvious questions "Why haven't they been deleted?" and "Why were they allowed to be placed on Wikipedia in the first place, without references?" The simple answer is "Wikiprudence".
Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit. If article submissions were somehow blocked for lack of references, then far fewer people would submit new pages to Wikipedia because tracking down references is a lot harder than simply writing what you know about a subject from memory. Plus, there is no easy way to automatically check articles for appropriate references - that takes humans to do.
To require human screening of new articles would create a huge bottleneck which could significantly delay the display of new pages, which might also discourage participation. So, new pages without references are allowed to be added to Wikipedia by default, even though they are in violation of Wikipedia's verification policy. Any such page is subject to deletion at any time, but the deletion process provides the opportunity for fixing any problems before a final decision is made, so it's not as bad as it sounds.
So far, most pages that lack references have never been nominated for deletion, because it isn't typical for a user to nominate an article that seems plausible or conforms to what the user already knows about the subject. This is mostly because there are so many other more important things to do on Wikipedia with one's scarce resource of time, such as delete articles which are blatantly false. So many editors prefer to tag an article with requests for reference citations, or to track down and provide the references themselves, rather than nominate such articles for deletion. -- The Transhumanist 02:11, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Comment - when considering criteria for deletion such as "Original research, violates WP:NOR policy", it is worth remembering that "Article contains original research (commonly abbreviated to OR)" and "Article is OR" are two completely different things.
However, even an article that is mostly OR might contain some well-sourced material. This material might be suitable to be merged into a "parent topic" article. For example, an article about a music single might contain a large amount of OR. The OR can be removed, and any sourced information remaining can be merged into an appropriate article - one about the album that single comes from, perhaps. Once any useful content like this has been salvaged, the article can be deleted. Quack 688 01:27, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Essays Low‑impact | ||||||||||
|
I was passing by The Tranhumanist's talk page, and I noticed this. Hope you don't mind me adding this comment. I have participated in a number of AfDs, though I'm not a regular there. I might sit in on this classroom as it could be interesting. Have you or TH considered getting the views of other AfD regulars, such as Uncle G?
About editing the page, can we correct typos? :-) Carcharoth 00:23, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I stumbled onto this page the same way - it made for a very interesting read, I like your work. One question - I like the fact that you emphasize "In many cases, an article can be improved by adding sourced, rewriting, or other corrective measures rather than deletion." I think that another way an article can be improved is by deleting questionable sections of it, since these sections bring down the credibility of the whole article. I've seen a couple of instances where an article with good and bad sections gets deleted due to a stack of "Delete, contains X" !votes, and some good material ends up being lost in the process.
The way I see it, "contains OR/copyvio/etc" shouldn't be a criteria for deleting the whole article - it should be a criteria for deleting the revelant sections. After that, the article can be re-evaluated, based on its size:
I'm still making this up as I go, to be honest, but I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts on the matter. Quack 688 22:46, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
THe problem with copyvios is the editing history. Since it has to remain, and since it still contains the copyvios, the liability remains. What I prefer to do is save any parts that aren't copy vio, get the thing deleted, and create a fresh stub with sources for expansion. -- Elar a girl Talk| Count 13:52, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
One other question - I was doing the tourist thing, browsing through a few policy pages when I found WP:CLEANUP. By its description, it was originally intended for formatting or clarity issues, but quite a few of the nominations there are for articles that need more significant problems fixed.
Putting something on AfD certainly generates a lively discussion, but I think it'd be good for both "sides" if some articles that need significant work, but are about a notable topic, were listed on WP:CLEANUP instead of straight on AfD. Inclusionists caould have a chance to improve on the articles without getting paranoid about the "deletionist cabal out to destroy them (and their kittens)". If no-one bothers improving it for a while, then it can be taken to AfD, and the nominator can show that they've put out a good faith call to improve the article, but no-one picked up the phone. Would you consider mentioning its existence somewhere in your essay? Are there other versions of this list somewhere for more serious problems that might deserve a mention? If not, would you support using this list as a prelude to AfD, or do you believe it should be kept just for formatting/clarity issues, and a new "fix this now or it's going to AfD" list should be created instead? Quack 688 06:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
That shows some of what I am suggesting is at User:Elaragirl/DeleteArticle2. There are three main pieces to the article:
I also would suggest using <ref> and </ref> tags and and make footnotes using <references/>to put some important caveats and tips in footnotes so they do not break up the flow of the text. I also think that instead of just linking to the instructions for putting an article up for AfD/XfD, also include a very stripped down set of steps such as 1. 2. 3. for what to do. Then the reader already can understand the procedure before they have to fight their way through the excess verbiage. It always helps to understand the procedure before you try to learn it in detail. Otherwise it just seems like a blizzard of crap. Actually even with this it will still seem like a blizzard of crap, but I hope it will make i seem a little clearer this way. -- Filll 05:40, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Bellissima Elara! - sorry, I've got Giulio Cesare on the CD player! I think it should be explained that it is pretty pointless whacking a PROD tag on top of an article a newbie has just created. If you can't speedy it, then in practice - even if it is egregiously promotion for someone semi-notable, then take it to AFD, bypassing PROD, as the newbie will be guaranteed to fight tooth and nail and remove the prod. Nobody likes having their stuff deleted, least of all newbies.
Also, pardon me if I missed this, but one should always notify the creator if you PROD or AFD an article, and usually for CSD as well. Is this mentioned? There are plenty of appropriate templates. Mind you, if someone creates something you just tagged with db-nonsense or db-vandal, then - others may disagree - there is little point in wasting your time on what is basically a glorified vandal. Cheers, Moreschi 15:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I think the section on inclusionism and deletionism is a pretty skewed depiction of the state of affairs. Take for instance the statement "Deletionists bitterly dislike the principle of rules like WP:IAR and statements that Wikipedia is not Paper". That's simply not the case and is a fairly lame way to present the issue. This is not so different than saying inclusionists bitterly dislike the principle that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information because it prevents Wikipedia from really being the sum of all human knowledge or that they loathe the guidelines on reliable sources because it leads to removal of content.
In any case, nothing is to be gained by presenting the issue as if deletionists or inclusionists are acting like ideological crusaders who spend all their time on AfD without reasoning. Not only is that counter-productive, I also find it to be completely out-of-touch with reality. I have a deletionist userbox on my user page (which by the way, or so I learned, is enough to disqualify me as a potential admin) yet this simply represents the way I tend to lean on in AfDs in which I choose to participate. There is no Great Struggle of Inclusionism vs Deletionism. There are simply different editors, with various thresholds in mind of what they consider as acceptable and valuable content on Wikipedia, they are all acting in good faith and they all have the best interests of the project at heart. That section is ruining an otherwise interesting page. Pascal.Tesson 06:41, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I think there are various problems with this section; the criticisms of both inclusionists and deletionists are essentially stupid ones (although they are indeed common ones), and the statistics as to the number of both inclusionists and deletionists are not remotely accurate. Every Wikipedia editor falls somewhere along the Inclusionist-Deletionist continuum, even if many don't know the terms, we all have our own attitudes and beliefs as to what our policies should be and what should or shouldn't belong. And, from what I've observed in the WP:IAR talk page, it is the inclusionists, in fact, who dislike IAR, at least at the moment. -- Xyzzyplugh 00:09, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the whole deletionism-inclusionism debate is a false dichotomy. Wikipedia, as a non-paper encyclopedia, ought to include all established and verifiable human knowledge. This clearly excludes incoherent pages, spam, things made up in school one day, and bands that have released no albums; at the same time, it clearly includes things like webcomics, bit-part actors in films, and minor fictional characters, all of which I have seen nominated for deletion. The problem is that the 'deletionist culture' is becoming too prevalent; I now spend more time on XfDs and speedy deletes than I do actually writing articles, as it's now virtually impossible to write anything without someone slamming it as original research or fancruft, while deletion nominations seem to be welcomed with open arms. At the moment, sadly, it seems to be that the burden of proof is on the author of an article to prove that their contributions are worth keeping, rather than on the would-be deleter to prove that their contributions are invalid/a waste of space. As a result, the encyclopedia is poorer. I wouldn't call myself an inclusionist: I spend a lot of time tagging nonsense pages for speedy deletion, nominating AfDs, and reverting vandalism, and all of these things are valuable (the encyclopedia needs to be 'pruned' at times). But we need to get back in sight of the goal of Wikipedia; to be a resource that contains as much information, albeit organised, sourced and well-written, as possible. Walton monarchist89 16:15, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
By the way, I know the above completely contradicts what I stated on the Village pump yesterday. I'm allowed to change my mind. Walton monarchist89 16:15, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I apologise if I came across as implying that I understand policy and the rest of the community does not - this was not my intention. Rather, I was trying to suggest that the policy itself is wrong and should be changed. Please don't interpret this as an attack on the rest of the community, or deletionists in particular - I'm sorry if it seemed that way. I also understand what User:Elaragirl is saying about the relative importance, or unimportance, of certain pages, and I absolutely agree that Economics is more important than Bob's Webcomic, and that expert editors should focus their time on editing and improving the most important articles. I just don't necessarily think there's a contradiction between the two priorities. Wikipedia is unlimited in physical size, i.e. there is no limit to the number of articles that can be included; so if "Bob" (or his real-life equivalent) really wants to create an article on his webcomic (as it may, quite plausibly, be the only thing he has expert knowledge about), where's the harm in that? I totally agree that it would be a waste of time for expert editors to spend their life categorising/stubmarking/extending articles such as "Bob's Webcomic". But isn't it just as much of a waste of their time to AfD/prod/speedy delete "Bob's Webcomic", when they could, as you say, be improving Economics or another major article that people actually read? (Sorry I keep repeating your theoretical examples, but I don't have the imagination to do otherwise). Once again, I'm sorry if my ideas came across as arrogant/an attack; that wasn't the idea, and I don't necessarily think that I'm "right" and everyone else is "wrong". I try to be open minded; I recognise that some other users have been working here a lot longer than I have, and if other people put forward good points, I'm quite willing to modify my opinion. Nor am I seeking to force anyone else to agree with me. Walton monarchist89 19:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
(Question copied here from The Transhumanist's user page, since it is relevant to this topic):
I have seen you around here on Wikipedia and have noted that you are among the more intelligent of Wikipedians (your work with virtual classroooms is outstanding). I've had this issue bugging me for a while but I wasn't sure who I could talk to about it. After reading your profile, I think you might know how to deal with this issue.
Recently, it seems that many high-quality articles are up for deletion quite often. Yes, there are the dozens upon dozens that are blatant advertising or spam, but now a large number a day seem to be up for deletion. I'm not sure what I (or anyone) can do about this.
Lost and confused, S h a r k f a c e 2 1 7 01:48, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
It comes in two basic forms on Wikipedia...
The most prevalent form of censorship on Wikipedia currently is deletionism, which is the Wikiphilosophy that holds that if an article isn't complete (or good) enough, it isn't ready to be displayed on Wikipedia. In the face of the vast number of stub articles on Wikipedia, and the fact that many of our volunteers make small contributions at a time, this approach is rather absurd. One argument for deletionism is that Wikipedia is mirrored all over the internet, such as on http://answers.com, and therefore it should hold to professional publishing standards and only provide finished (polished) product.
One counter argument is that Wikipedia is a work in progress being constructed by volunteers (that is, it relies entirely on volunteers to build it), therefore it should take advantage of any work (contributions) which volunteers make, regardless of how small. When additions are removed, they aren't there for others to work on and build upon (or for others to read!), so in this sense, it's taking a step backwards; but more significantly, it harms Wikipedia by disallowing collaboration.
Collaboration on Wikipedia for the most part consists of multiple users contributing to an article, but this becomes difficult if articles are removed for insufficient content - you can't build upon what isn't there! The easiest way for editors to find each other to collaborate is by going to the article they are interested in. Many may not know about draft hosting nor know how to find a draft hosted in someone's userspace. Deletionism unbuilds Wikipedia. It's like there's an unwritten rule that if you don't give a certain amount of material at one time (a whole article), you can't give at all.
Noteworthiness is another major issue for deletionists, in which they favor the mainstream. So if an article isn't noteworthy in the general sense even though it may be noteworthy in the field to which it pertains, it may have some trouble getting past the deletionists. Fortunately, the deletionists are opposed by the inclusionists and incrementalists... and by the vast number of contributors to Wikipedia - currently, there are just too many people adding material to Wikipedia for the deletionists to keep up with. See meta:Conflicting Wikipedia philosophies, meta:Deletionism and meta:Inclusionism.
The second and more insidious form of censorship on Wikipedia is information suppression. This is when users delete articles they don't agree with or because the articles don't support their agenda. It is akin to book banning (and burning). It's harder to spot, because the censors don't cite the real reasons why they are trying to delete the articles. From what I have observed, it appears that the policy used the most as the basis for such deletions is Wikipedia:Verify. Since citing sources is policy (mandatory), and because most of Wikipedia doesn't cite sources (and is therefore in violation of policy by default), WP:VER is the most readily available weapon for censors. The only effective defense against this argument for deletion is to provide references (that is, actually do the research, find, and post the references in the article). See: Wikipedia:Censorship and WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not censored.
What's the solution? The solution is: Vigilance...
Deletionism is easy to deal with. The deletionists love Wikipedia every bit as much as the rest of us. They're not against additions to Wikipedia per se, just additions that aren't up to their standards. The solution for articles which aren't complete enough is to complete them. The solution for non-noteworthy articles is to provide references of their noteworthiness; failing that, save them off-line or in your userspace until they become noteworthy.
Information suppression is harder to deal with. Censorship isn't allowed on Wikipedia, so if someone really is purging material from Wikipedia due to some bias or special interest, then an RFC can be started once enough evidence of policy violation is gathered concerning his or her behavior. But that is a lengthy process. In the meantime, more damage is being done, and has to be opposed directly. The only way to solve the problem of censorship is to fight it at every level...
In the deletion debates, you've got to address whatever the reasons given for deletion are and fix the article so that they no longer apply. Once done, make sure you place a note at the top of the deletion debate for the closing admin pointing this out. Otherwise, the admin might just count the votes and not even check the article. If everyone's concerns are met, then the consensus is to keep.
Beyond the debates, articles which aren't "salted" (protected) can be re-created (that is, rewritten) from scratch.
Material may be relevant in other articles, so the parts that are can be included in those articles. But to re-use information in such a way, it is of paramount importance TO SAVE A COPY OF THE ARTICLE BEFORE IT IS DELETED.
Articles can also be revived, fixed, and submitted to Wikipedia:Deletion review. In support of this effort, you can save the original article off-line, or in your userspace. If you don't make it in time, don't panic -- you can request that an admin make a copy of the article to your userspace for draft purposes (admins have access to Wikipedia's deleted articles). This can be a pain, so it's best to make a copy beforehand. Once the article has been approved for reinsertion into the encyclopedia, contact an admin to restore the original article along with its complete history. To adhere to the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, the license under which Wikipedia content is created, each page in Wikipedia must be attributed to its authors (and they, along with their contributions, are all recorded in a page's history). To keep a page's history intact you've got to get the original back out of the deletion graveyard, and that's done through Deletion Review. This shouldn't be a problem if you've addressed all the objections posed in the page's deletion debate, and fixed each problem.
At the risk of sounding redundant, the best defense against censorship/deletion is to save a copy. So if there is an article you are worried about, save a copy of it right away. If you put it off too long, you may be caught off-guard by a red-link. If you do come across a red-link for which you know there was a good article there before, look up its deletion debate to see if you can do anything about it. If fixable, edit the article, and submit it to Deletion review.
While there may be nothing you can do to keep censors off of Wikipedia, it is your duty as a Wikipedian to fight censorship wherever you find it on Wikipedia. The only way to beat censorship is to fight it, and that means get the word out. Be ready to repost the information in some form somewhere. Also don't let censors operate in a vacuum. Bring their activities, or the material in question, to the attention of others. There are forums all over Wikipedia for this. See: Wikipedia:Requests for comment#Request comment on articles, Wikipedia:Requests for feedback, and Wikipedia:Third opinion.
I hope this helps. Go get 'em!
Sincerely, The Transhumanist 05:47, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
(copied to here from user pages, by --The Transhumanist)...
Hey Pascal,
For some reason, many deletionists have really be egging me lately. You are one of the few self-proclaimed deletionists who goes out of his way to make Wikipedia a better place and you don't seem to fit the deletionist stereotype, as I've seen you try to save several articles.
Anyway, after spending a few months here on Wikipedia and many hours in WP:XFD, I've come to think that many deletionists are just too lazy to contribute by adding new information. I don't know whether this opinion is misguided or not (and if I ever ran for RFA, I'm sure this will come back to bite me), but it seems that many of those who claim they are deletionists would rather just stay in WP:AFD and !vote "delete" down much of the list instead of adding new information to Wikipedia. To mask their laziness, they use the guise of the Wiki-philosophy Deletionism. Why improve an article when you can point out its faults and then delete it?
Confused and in need of advice,
S h a r k f a c e 2 1 7 03:16, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Good evening ( GMT time); I was wondering if there is a policy and guideline resource you actively refer to when XfDing, or if you reccommend any sure-fast resources that can be used to justify your opinion at a XfD?
Kind regards,
anthonycfc [
talk 00:21, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I disagree that one shouldn't post brief "delete per nom" or "delete per policy" votes. Frequently deletion is the obvious choice, and the nominator has already thoroughly explained why. However, AfD debates frequently end up getting relisted because they didn't get enough responses, or consensus wasn't reached. If only one person votes Delete along with the nominator, article may get relisted, so even one additional "delete per nom" can save the trouble of relisting. In addition, if there are only two delete votes, and someone comes along and just types "keep" with no reasoning, article could get relisted. "Delete per nom", while being a bit lazy, can be useful. -- Xyzzyplugh 23:59, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Comment: Note that most articles do not (yet) have references included. This brings up the obvious questions "Why haven't they been deleted?" and "Why were they allowed to be placed on Wikipedia in the first place, without references?" The simple answer is "Wikiprudence".
Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit. If article submissions were somehow blocked for lack of references, then far fewer people would submit new pages to Wikipedia because tracking down references is a lot harder than simply writing what you know about a subject from memory. Plus, there is no easy way to automatically check articles for appropriate references - that takes humans to do.
To require human screening of new articles would create a huge bottleneck which could significantly delay the display of new pages, which might also discourage participation. So, new pages without references are allowed to be added to Wikipedia by default, even though they are in violation of Wikipedia's verification policy. Any such page is subject to deletion at any time, but the deletion process provides the opportunity for fixing any problems before a final decision is made, so it's not as bad as it sounds.
So far, most pages that lack references have never been nominated for deletion, because it isn't typical for a user to nominate an article that seems plausible or conforms to what the user already knows about the subject. This is mostly because there are so many other more important things to do on Wikipedia with one's scarce resource of time, such as delete articles which are blatantly false. So many editors prefer to tag an article with requests for reference citations, or to track down and provide the references themselves, rather than nominate such articles for deletion. -- The Transhumanist 02:11, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Comment - when considering criteria for deletion such as "Original research, violates WP:NOR policy", it is worth remembering that "Article contains original research (commonly abbreviated to OR)" and "Article is OR" are two completely different things.
However, even an article that is mostly OR might contain some well-sourced material. This material might be suitable to be merged into a "parent topic" article. For example, an article about a music single might contain a large amount of OR. The OR can be removed, and any sourced information remaining can be merged into an appropriate article - one about the album that single comes from, perhaps. Once any useful content like this has been salvaged, the article can be deleted. Quack 688 01:27, 6 January 2007 (UTC)