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Wine Unassessed ( inactive) | |||||||
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Regarding cutting vintage information: I'd say cut all or cut nothing (I'd vote for cut all). The whole process of deciding what to include and exclude could easily become subjective, messy, and controversial. Maybe you mention only those great vintages from more than 10 years ago. Why 10 years? Which great vintages? All of them? Those from 100 years ago? What about terrible vintages? Which references do you cite? How many references do you need? What does great mean anyway?
No, I'd rather cut vintage information from wiki pages and see discussions of greatness (and mediocrity) in my favorite book or wine-forum. Steve.Moulding 15:22, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
What would be the best way to link "examples" of common mistake? We can't really link to the article because hopefully those mistakes would be soon fixed and not lasting for posterity. I suppose we could link to a diff version but I wouldn't want to give the impression of singling out an editor who may have innocently made that mistake. Another option would be "cut n paste" but that could get long and wordy with some of the examples. Any thoughts? Agne 20:19, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
...so long as this doesn't deviate from existing Wikipedia practice (which it appears not to). One related issue, which might be of concern, are descriptions of the character of a wine (or the terroir of a region)--sometimes claims concerning these are highly speculative in nature. The main thing is to present verifiable fact as fact; consensus as consensus, and the opinion of a small group or individual as such--keeping in mind that the last of these is often not notable. -- EngineerScotty
How to find a complete list of all the articles belonging to the WikiProject Wine? In the project page, when you click on the Category link at the bottom (WikiProject Wine articles) you are taken to a list of talk pages belonging to the project articles, but not to the list of articles themselves. I find it very confusing. Thanks, AVM 23:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the purpose is of saying users shouldn't use Wikipedia to decide what to drink. Exactly what purpose would someone interested in wine have in learning about the subject to begin with? I do understand that we should avoid bias, advocacy, subjectivity, uninformative lists, etc.
With that in mind, I propose that it's okay to list truly noteworthy awards. Just like it's okay to list academy award nominations and golden globes for an actor -- just not every talent show they won. So if a wine award is truly important, say placing in the 1976 or 2006 judgment of paris, a 100 point Parker or Wine Spectator, or a major wine award (e.g. sweepstakes winner in SF), that ought to be said in a neutral tone. Just not every county fair bronze medal.
Probably shouldn't list the fact that the President drank something at a state dinner. With the exception of our current president, they drink a lot of wine.
Also, if you can cite an authoritative source to say that a particular wine is highly regarded, considered the premier or standard of its type, etc., I think that's worth saying. it might be fair to say that Chateau d'Yquem is the most widely known Sauternes if that happens to be true. Wikidemo 02:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Are all American wineries notable? My opinion is for the most part yes. Most have multiple articles from well regarded sources, they are widely known, their products are widely available regionally to worldwide. Given the goals of this project it would be a useful reference to have an article on most any winery. Is there an official position on what the notability standards are for a winery? Wikidemo 02:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I've started a bit on that section. Any thoughts? Agne 22:15, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
People are being sloppy with whether or not to add "winery," "wineries," "vineyard," "cellars," "vineyards," or whatever else to the end of the winery name, or "chateau" at the beginning. That causes conflicts with the people, towns, regions, etc., they're named after. It also means they don't come up consistently in searches. Wikidemo 02:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
As in most of wikipedia categories are used inconsistently. Of all the California winery articles, maybe half are listed with the wine project, most of the rest with project California. Some with neither. It would be nice if someone could go back and add a consistent set of categories to all of them -- is that reasonable? Wikidemo 02:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Subtle difference, but is it more appropriate to make the article about the wine, the vineyard, the winery, or the company that produces it? In most cases I think the last case, even for wineries that are famous mostly for one thing (e.g. Silver Oak or Opus One cabernet, Chandon sparkling wine, etc). Or for companies that maintain two or more wineries (e.g. Ridge) or multiple vineyards. As a reference work, focusing on the winery gives the bigger picture and ties it into larger issues of winemaking, history, business, geography, etc. So it's more encyclopedia-like. Wikidemo 02:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Maybe vintages aren't crucial but appellations are. Very few of the appellation articles have been written, although there are comprehensive lists of them here. Wikidemo 02:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
"Wikipedia is not a wine guide is part of WikiProject Wine, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to wines" (e.m.) - heh. -- Random832( t c) 15:46, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
From a conversation on the Wine Project talk page. What are some thoughts about the notability of Masters of Wine like Igor Ryjenkov and Master Sommeliers? Agne Cheese/ Wine 07:22, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Conversation originating from thread Articles for Deletion over on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wine
Agne, you are quite correct to separate this discussion from the one of prod deletions that I raised, and to move it here. I think you and others have done a good job in writing this essay. I suspect that the essay does need some tweaking because wineries are not like a Pizza shop. Even a small winery in Australia can have its wines on the shelves of a wine shop in London. This of course may not make it notable, but it certainly goes in that direction. The tweaking is probably about the type of sources. The essay recognises that wine may have a lot of sources but a lot of them do not lead to notability. -- Bduke 09:01, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
I've added a new section on inclusions of list of wineries. Thoughts, feedback and criticisms are always welcomed. Agne Cheese/ Wine 02:59, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
As the (sometimes contentious) topic of winery notability has come up frequently over the past few months in deletion discussions involving numerous winery articles on the Wikipedia Wine project, it would be useful to have a new guideline serve as an extension to Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies) (known as WP:CORP). This well-established essay serves that purpose. While its title implies that it would be an extension to the policy Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, that isn't the case; it really is an extension of WP:CORP, particularly the section on notability of wineries.
On Wikipedia:WikiProject Wine we find ourselves referencing this document frequently. Therefore, per the proposal instructions on WP:GUIDE, I am proposing that this essay be promoted to guideline. If there are objections, please identify what improvements would need to be made. ~ Amatulić ( talk) 21:35, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
“ | Nearly all wineries receive some coverage in reliable sources, however for a winery to be notable it must be the primary subject of coverage. Some good indications that such coverage is likely to exist include:
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” |
Update: I have extracted the notability content from this article, significantly expanded it, and posted it at Wikipedia:Notability (wine topics) (shortcut WP:WINETOPIC). Others have already weighed in with comments and improvements. Feel free to join in. ~ Amatulić ( talk) 19:46, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Essays Low‑impact | ||||||||||
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Wine Unassessed ( inactive) | |||||||
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Regarding cutting vintage information: I'd say cut all or cut nothing (I'd vote for cut all). The whole process of deciding what to include and exclude could easily become subjective, messy, and controversial. Maybe you mention only those great vintages from more than 10 years ago. Why 10 years? Which great vintages? All of them? Those from 100 years ago? What about terrible vintages? Which references do you cite? How many references do you need? What does great mean anyway?
No, I'd rather cut vintage information from wiki pages and see discussions of greatness (and mediocrity) in my favorite book or wine-forum. Steve.Moulding 15:22, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
What would be the best way to link "examples" of common mistake? We can't really link to the article because hopefully those mistakes would be soon fixed and not lasting for posterity. I suppose we could link to a diff version but I wouldn't want to give the impression of singling out an editor who may have innocently made that mistake. Another option would be "cut n paste" but that could get long and wordy with some of the examples. Any thoughts? Agne 20:19, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
...so long as this doesn't deviate from existing Wikipedia practice (which it appears not to). One related issue, which might be of concern, are descriptions of the character of a wine (or the terroir of a region)--sometimes claims concerning these are highly speculative in nature. The main thing is to present verifiable fact as fact; consensus as consensus, and the opinion of a small group or individual as such--keeping in mind that the last of these is often not notable. -- EngineerScotty
How to find a complete list of all the articles belonging to the WikiProject Wine? In the project page, when you click on the Category link at the bottom (WikiProject Wine articles) you are taken to a list of talk pages belonging to the project articles, but not to the list of articles themselves. I find it very confusing. Thanks, AVM 23:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the purpose is of saying users shouldn't use Wikipedia to decide what to drink. Exactly what purpose would someone interested in wine have in learning about the subject to begin with? I do understand that we should avoid bias, advocacy, subjectivity, uninformative lists, etc.
With that in mind, I propose that it's okay to list truly noteworthy awards. Just like it's okay to list academy award nominations and golden globes for an actor -- just not every talent show they won. So if a wine award is truly important, say placing in the 1976 or 2006 judgment of paris, a 100 point Parker or Wine Spectator, or a major wine award (e.g. sweepstakes winner in SF), that ought to be said in a neutral tone. Just not every county fair bronze medal.
Probably shouldn't list the fact that the President drank something at a state dinner. With the exception of our current president, they drink a lot of wine.
Also, if you can cite an authoritative source to say that a particular wine is highly regarded, considered the premier or standard of its type, etc., I think that's worth saying. it might be fair to say that Chateau d'Yquem is the most widely known Sauternes if that happens to be true. Wikidemo 02:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Are all American wineries notable? My opinion is for the most part yes. Most have multiple articles from well regarded sources, they are widely known, their products are widely available regionally to worldwide. Given the goals of this project it would be a useful reference to have an article on most any winery. Is there an official position on what the notability standards are for a winery? Wikidemo 02:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I've started a bit on that section. Any thoughts? Agne 22:15, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
People are being sloppy with whether or not to add "winery," "wineries," "vineyard," "cellars," "vineyards," or whatever else to the end of the winery name, or "chateau" at the beginning. That causes conflicts with the people, towns, regions, etc., they're named after. It also means they don't come up consistently in searches. Wikidemo 02:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
As in most of wikipedia categories are used inconsistently. Of all the California winery articles, maybe half are listed with the wine project, most of the rest with project California. Some with neither. It would be nice if someone could go back and add a consistent set of categories to all of them -- is that reasonable? Wikidemo 02:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Subtle difference, but is it more appropriate to make the article about the wine, the vineyard, the winery, or the company that produces it? In most cases I think the last case, even for wineries that are famous mostly for one thing (e.g. Silver Oak or Opus One cabernet, Chandon sparkling wine, etc). Or for companies that maintain two or more wineries (e.g. Ridge) or multiple vineyards. As a reference work, focusing on the winery gives the bigger picture and ties it into larger issues of winemaking, history, business, geography, etc. So it's more encyclopedia-like. Wikidemo 02:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Maybe vintages aren't crucial but appellations are. Very few of the appellation articles have been written, although there are comprehensive lists of them here. Wikidemo 02:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
"Wikipedia is not a wine guide is part of WikiProject Wine, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to wines" (e.m.) - heh. -- Random832( t c) 15:46, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
From a conversation on the Wine Project talk page. What are some thoughts about the notability of Masters of Wine like Igor Ryjenkov and Master Sommeliers? Agne Cheese/ Wine 07:22, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Conversation originating from thread Articles for Deletion over on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wine
Agne, you are quite correct to separate this discussion from the one of prod deletions that I raised, and to move it here. I think you and others have done a good job in writing this essay. I suspect that the essay does need some tweaking because wineries are not like a Pizza shop. Even a small winery in Australia can have its wines on the shelves of a wine shop in London. This of course may not make it notable, but it certainly goes in that direction. The tweaking is probably about the type of sources. The essay recognises that wine may have a lot of sources but a lot of them do not lead to notability. -- Bduke 09:01, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
I've added a new section on inclusions of list of wineries. Thoughts, feedback and criticisms are always welcomed. Agne Cheese/ Wine 02:59, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
As the (sometimes contentious) topic of winery notability has come up frequently over the past few months in deletion discussions involving numerous winery articles on the Wikipedia Wine project, it would be useful to have a new guideline serve as an extension to Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies) (known as WP:CORP). This well-established essay serves that purpose. While its title implies that it would be an extension to the policy Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, that isn't the case; it really is an extension of WP:CORP, particularly the section on notability of wineries.
On Wikipedia:WikiProject Wine we find ourselves referencing this document frequently. Therefore, per the proposal instructions on WP:GUIDE, I am proposing that this essay be promoted to guideline. If there are objections, please identify what improvements would need to be made. ~ Amatulić ( talk) 21:35, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
“ | Nearly all wineries receive some coverage in reliable sources, however for a winery to be notable it must be the primary subject of coverage. Some good indications that such coverage is likely to exist include:
|
” |
Update: I have extracted the notability content from this article, significantly expanded it, and posted it at Wikipedia:Notability (wine topics) (shortcut WP:WINETOPIC). Others have already weighed in with comments and improvements. Feel free to join in. ~ Amatulić ( talk) 19:46, 24 June 2009 (UTC)