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Hello all,
I had a question I thought I'd ask before I start adding more material to an article I'm fixing up. Is using the Anime News Network and Crunchyroll aggegator scores constitute reliable references for citing the overall reception of a series? If not, does anyone know of any that are reliable?
Thanks, Valce Talk 07:12, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Hoshizora e Kakaru Hashi will be the next project I work on, now that I finished with List of School Days episodes. Valce Talk 01:36, 18 January 2012 (UTC)
I was searching for literary sources for To Heart, and I am wondering if the literary criticism doujinshi Black Past (and subsequently the column on the website, which is actually what I am hoping to use) can be considered a reliable SPS. The "appendix" that was released at C81 is mainly concerned about visual novels, and contains various reviews, criticisms, and interviews with people in the industry. Its list of authors apparently include Yūichi Murakami and Shūsei Sakagami, and Kensuke Suzuki, an associate professor in sociology at Kwansei Gakuin University, also contributed a piece. Murakami and Sakagami were both finalists of a literary criticism contest Hiroki Azuma and Kodansha held back in 2008, and Murakami won the contest. Both writers (and pretty much all entrants) also have their entries published on Kodansha's website, so I suppose they are technically published. Is this enough to merit the book and the website as reliable sources?
And I was going to ask this on WT:ANIME, but figured I should ask here instead since this mainly concerns visual novels. -- クラ ウド 668 07:21, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
Amazon.co.jp apparently ran a poll on the scenarios of eroge released between 2010 and 2012. Must say it surprised me to see White Album 2 on the top rather than Little Busters! -- クラ ウド 668 02:12, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Dengeki G's Magazine reached its 300th overall issue with its October 2012 issue. They don't have a poll on games this time around, but they did round up all the counted character votes (25463 in total) between the 200th and 300th issues and listed the top twenty.
Needless to say I am disappointed in the lack of Komari from LB!, Multi from To Heart, and Sana from Mashiroiro Symphony in this list. -- クラ ウド 668 04:44, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
Could someone check the latest changes at [1]? Is this game a visual novel (3D western visual novel)?
Santer ( talk) 13:42, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
I've been working on Immoral Study (series) and have been unable to find any sources of information on it other than self-published reviews by fans or product listings in online stores. It just doesn't seem notable enough for Wikipedia and should probably be deleted.-- Atlantima ( talk) 14:54, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
On February 14, four articles were added to the WP:VN#Articles to work on section into a "To be created" sub-section, but I initially removed them for lack of establishing notability, which I will point out here. First the Grisaia series. There are there games in this series: Grisaia no Kajitsu (2011), Grisaia no Meikyū (2012) and Grisaia no Rakuen (2013). These games did not receive so much as a manga/anime adaptation, and were not released outside Japan. Wikipedia:Notability (video games) states, "A video game is appropriate for an article if it has been the subject of significant commentary or analysis in published sources that are independent of the game developer." A quick Google search turns up official websites, retailing websites, and blogs. Some of the series does get mention in places like Famitsu, such as here and here, but sources such as these don't provide "significant commentary" and thus don't establish notability. Furthermore, searching for Grisia does not uncover any significant coverage in English, which is not surprising since they've never been released outside of Japan.
This same thing can be seen in the next two articles added to the "To be created" sub-section: Sekien no Inganock: What a beautiful people and Sōten no Celenaria: What a beautiful world. Sekien no Inganock was unofficially fan translated into English, but this does not establish notability, and is a breech of copyright. Doing a Google search of Sekien no Inganock uncovers blogs, forums, and various other fan listings. A search of the Japanese title also does not establish any significant coverage in reliable sources. It goes without saying, but the same could be said of Sōten no Celenaria.
Taimanin Asagi, however, did received an anime adaptation, and this may be enough to establish notability, although the OVA, like the game it's based on, does not seem to have been released outside of Japan. Still, notability should be established before any article is suggested to be created, or else we're just going to be creating articles that aren't notable enough for creation and thus liable to get deleted, which seems to be the current fate of the articles in WP:VN#Notability not established, one of which, Immoral Study (series), is already at AFD.-- 十 八 06:24, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Seems strange to restrict it to only Japanese VNs.-- 75.92.61.32 ( talk) 13:55, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
There are countless VN articles with variations on this text in "Gameplay" or "Plot": "The gameplay of game follows a branching/linear plot line which offers pre-determined scenarios with courses of interaction, and focuses on the appeal of the number female main characters by the player character."... "One of the goals of the gameplay is for the player to view the hentai scenes depicting the protagonist and the heroines having sexual intercourse."
It's especially weird when that boilerplate text is there but no actual storyline is described. (e.g. Sanarara, FairlyLife, Daitoshokan no Hitsujikai). Who the heck came up with these phrases and decided to put them everywhere? -- Atlantima ( talk) 22:15, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Okay, I interpreted the "appeal" sentence incorrectly. That just proves my point about the confusingness of the phrase. Why not just say "player has to win the girls' favor to advance the story", instead of "focuses on the appeal of the female main characters by the player character"? (not to mention that you can't blanketly say that all story progression will always be result of romantic appeal, anyway.)
pre-determined scenarios" was to point out that VNs have multiple scenarios/routes that the player gets to play through. Well if one means "multiple scenarios" then one should say "multiple scenarios". Saying "pre-determined" is extraneous.
As for "courses of interaction", this points out the fact that the game has portions which require the player to make choices, thus "interacting" with the game. VNs are a form of interactive fiction, so explicitly stating "interaction" makes sense. Uh I wasn't objecting to the word "interaction" but the phrase "courses of interaction". Maybe this is a real phrase used by some people but it sounds strange to me. Why not say "interacting with characters" or "conversing with characters"?
for a time VNs were described as having "linear" plotlines, but in more recent games, it's been corrected as branching. Eh, there are still linear VNs. Not all are branching. And I have no problem with mentioning when they are are linear or branching.
To answer that last part about storylines not being described in the gameplay section, Atlantima, I think that's something that should be left for the Plot section, unless it has to do with the gameplay. I'm not saying that plot should be in the gameplay section. I'm saying that there is sometimes literally no description of the plot anywhere in the article. It appears like lazy editors copypasted the standard gameplay text when they could have written something that was actually specifically about that game: the story.-- Atlantima ( talk) 22:30, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Hello all,
I had a question I thought I'd ask before I start adding more material to an article I'm fixing up. Is using the Anime News Network and Crunchyroll aggegator scores constitute reliable references for citing the overall reception of a series? If not, does anyone know of any that are reliable?
Thanks, Valce Talk 07:12, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Hoshizora e Kakaru Hashi will be the next project I work on, now that I finished with List of School Days episodes. Valce Talk 01:36, 18 January 2012 (UTC)
I was searching for literary sources for To Heart, and I am wondering if the literary criticism doujinshi Black Past (and subsequently the column on the website, which is actually what I am hoping to use) can be considered a reliable SPS. The "appendix" that was released at C81 is mainly concerned about visual novels, and contains various reviews, criticisms, and interviews with people in the industry. Its list of authors apparently include Yūichi Murakami and Shūsei Sakagami, and Kensuke Suzuki, an associate professor in sociology at Kwansei Gakuin University, also contributed a piece. Murakami and Sakagami were both finalists of a literary criticism contest Hiroki Azuma and Kodansha held back in 2008, and Murakami won the contest. Both writers (and pretty much all entrants) also have their entries published on Kodansha's website, so I suppose they are technically published. Is this enough to merit the book and the website as reliable sources?
And I was going to ask this on WT:ANIME, but figured I should ask here instead since this mainly concerns visual novels. -- クラ ウド 668 07:21, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
Amazon.co.jp apparently ran a poll on the scenarios of eroge released between 2010 and 2012. Must say it surprised me to see White Album 2 on the top rather than Little Busters! -- クラ ウド 668 02:12, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Dengeki G's Magazine reached its 300th overall issue with its October 2012 issue. They don't have a poll on games this time around, but they did round up all the counted character votes (25463 in total) between the 200th and 300th issues and listed the top twenty.
Needless to say I am disappointed in the lack of Komari from LB!, Multi from To Heart, and Sana from Mashiroiro Symphony in this list. -- クラ ウド 668 04:44, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
Could someone check the latest changes at [1]? Is this game a visual novel (3D western visual novel)?
Santer ( talk) 13:42, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
I've been working on Immoral Study (series) and have been unable to find any sources of information on it other than self-published reviews by fans or product listings in online stores. It just doesn't seem notable enough for Wikipedia and should probably be deleted.-- Atlantima ( talk) 14:54, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
On February 14, four articles were added to the WP:VN#Articles to work on section into a "To be created" sub-section, but I initially removed them for lack of establishing notability, which I will point out here. First the Grisaia series. There are there games in this series: Grisaia no Kajitsu (2011), Grisaia no Meikyū (2012) and Grisaia no Rakuen (2013). These games did not receive so much as a manga/anime adaptation, and were not released outside Japan. Wikipedia:Notability (video games) states, "A video game is appropriate for an article if it has been the subject of significant commentary or analysis in published sources that are independent of the game developer." A quick Google search turns up official websites, retailing websites, and blogs. Some of the series does get mention in places like Famitsu, such as here and here, but sources such as these don't provide "significant commentary" and thus don't establish notability. Furthermore, searching for Grisia does not uncover any significant coverage in English, which is not surprising since they've never been released outside of Japan.
This same thing can be seen in the next two articles added to the "To be created" sub-section: Sekien no Inganock: What a beautiful people and Sōten no Celenaria: What a beautiful world. Sekien no Inganock was unofficially fan translated into English, but this does not establish notability, and is a breech of copyright. Doing a Google search of Sekien no Inganock uncovers blogs, forums, and various other fan listings. A search of the Japanese title also does not establish any significant coverage in reliable sources. It goes without saying, but the same could be said of Sōten no Celenaria.
Taimanin Asagi, however, did received an anime adaptation, and this may be enough to establish notability, although the OVA, like the game it's based on, does not seem to have been released outside of Japan. Still, notability should be established before any article is suggested to be created, or else we're just going to be creating articles that aren't notable enough for creation and thus liable to get deleted, which seems to be the current fate of the articles in WP:VN#Notability not established, one of which, Immoral Study (series), is already at AFD.-- 十 八 06:24, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Seems strange to restrict it to only Japanese VNs.-- 75.92.61.32 ( talk) 13:55, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
There are countless VN articles with variations on this text in "Gameplay" or "Plot": "The gameplay of game follows a branching/linear plot line which offers pre-determined scenarios with courses of interaction, and focuses on the appeal of the number female main characters by the player character."... "One of the goals of the gameplay is for the player to view the hentai scenes depicting the protagonist and the heroines having sexual intercourse."
It's especially weird when that boilerplate text is there but no actual storyline is described. (e.g. Sanarara, FairlyLife, Daitoshokan no Hitsujikai). Who the heck came up with these phrases and decided to put them everywhere? -- Atlantima ( talk) 22:15, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Okay, I interpreted the "appeal" sentence incorrectly. That just proves my point about the confusingness of the phrase. Why not just say "player has to win the girls' favor to advance the story", instead of "focuses on the appeal of the female main characters by the player character"? (not to mention that you can't blanketly say that all story progression will always be result of romantic appeal, anyway.)
pre-determined scenarios" was to point out that VNs have multiple scenarios/routes that the player gets to play through. Well if one means "multiple scenarios" then one should say "multiple scenarios". Saying "pre-determined" is extraneous.
As for "courses of interaction", this points out the fact that the game has portions which require the player to make choices, thus "interacting" with the game. VNs are a form of interactive fiction, so explicitly stating "interaction" makes sense. Uh I wasn't objecting to the word "interaction" but the phrase "courses of interaction". Maybe this is a real phrase used by some people but it sounds strange to me. Why not say "interacting with characters" or "conversing with characters"?
for a time VNs were described as having "linear" plotlines, but in more recent games, it's been corrected as branching. Eh, there are still linear VNs. Not all are branching. And I have no problem with mentioning when they are are linear or branching.
To answer that last part about storylines not being described in the gameplay section, Atlantima, I think that's something that should be left for the Plot section, unless it has to do with the gameplay. I'm not saying that plot should be in the gameplay section. I'm saying that there is sometimes literally no description of the plot anywhere in the article. It appears like lazy editors copypasted the standard gameplay text when they could have written something that was actually specifically about that game: the story.-- Atlantima ( talk) 22:30, 7 April 2013 (UTC)