This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Previously all visual novels were grouped under WP:MANGA, and the two projects will still overlap tremendously in scope. Would this project perhaps be better as a task force, where it could benefit from the higher visability of WP:MANGA? -- tjstrf talk 07:53, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Article assessment usually works out really well, but the whole importance bit usually seems to flop for most WikiProjects. However, I think we can work up a system that should work well for our project.
Top: Visual novel and nothing else really.
High: Visual novels with anime adaptations (as these are the ones non-Japanese actually ever learn about); top five selling visual novels for each year or visual novels that are otherwise very popular; visual novels that are historically important for whatever reason (such as whichever one is first); articles that cover a large series of visual novels (e.g. Rance); companies that produce visual novels of high importance (e.g. Navel) or that just produce a lot (over 15).
Medium: Most translated visual novels (basically, stuff you can find on J-list); visual novels by companies of high importance that aren't of high importance themselves; popular visual novel characters (e.g. Saber (Fate/stay night)); "List of characters in..."; companies that produced between 5 and 15 unimportant visual novels.
Low: Visual novel characters not so popular (but still important enough to have their own article); visual novels nobody's ever heard of that should be added just for completeness' sake; companies that produced less than 5 unimportant visual novels.
Thoughts?-- SeizureDog 14:45, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Unlike WP:ANIME, I don't think there will be enough members here to warrant a category, and a participant list would be easy to manage. I think a list should replace/be used with the member category. _dk 18:10, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Maybe it's about time that a unique infobox, modelled on the visual novel infoboxes of the Japanese wiki. As it is currently, it seems we are using a variety of boxes to provide information, which were not specifically created for this purpose.
It would include additional information such as the number of endings, whether or not it is fully voiced, ratings and the genre (for example, visual novel, love adventure, or the other classifications the Japanese use). Karn-b 15:55, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, I've translated the Japanese infobox used. The infobox is classified under "美少女ゲーム系" on the Japanese wiki, which is roughly "beautiful girl games..."...not too sure what we call it in English though....
In reality, I think only the following would be relevant to an English audience:
I think the information should be put in an info box to help differentiate the genre from other "normal" games.
Karn-b 15:40, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Karn-b 05:42, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
For any infobox I think less is more. Remember, the infobox is not a place to repeat every tiny little tidbit or stat. On that note, I'd axe "number of discs". -- Ned Scott 06:31, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, here's the Japanese version of the animanga infobox. I know the amount of detail is overkill but it might give us ideas while we're at it: <Infobox removed due to layout issues> Karn-b 14:46, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I thought it would be a good idea to make up a list of which visual novels our members have played. Please add yours here. This could very likely end up being a very short list.... Anywaysm I recently bought a Japanese PS2, so I've been wanting to get a visual novel for it, but I only know of six that exist for it: all of Key's work, Shuffle! On the Stage, and Snow. Anyone know of some others I should keep my eye out for?-- SeizureDog 18:45, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
SeizureDog mentioned on Talk:Air (series) that we need to find a reliable VN review site. Fortunately, one exists. Getchu.com has a wealth of VN reviews, as well as sales information and lists of merchandise, etc. It seems to be quite popular in Japan and a reliable source. It should prove very helpful in providing references, as it keeps a list of the top-selling VNs of every fiscal year! Notice that I referenced the sales info over at Fate/stay night using the site. I hope this helps with any referencing or research. Moogy (talk) 14:35, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Is Yumeria a visual novel? It appears to be so from the benchmark/demo program. -- Squilibob 10:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Bishōjo game, Dating sim, Visual novel, and Eroge. Four articles on almost the same subject and four articles that are a major headache to sort through. Here are the problems as I see them:
I say if this project is to move forward, we need to get our main articles sorted out and making sense. Anyone up to the task of helping with these major merges?-- SeizureDog 13:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I think you're oversimplifying things, and while I see your point, the percentages you listed are just arbitrary overestimates...anyways, I'll respond point to point:
I think we shouldn't be making our own judgments on what a term actually means, I learned this the hard way. Also see the previous discussion on this that didn't go so well. Most of my points there remain intact. I also don't suggest rash actions based on partial knowledge. _dk 21:40, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I can't comment on whether the bishoujo game genre is a valid separate genre by itself. I can comment on female-targeted visual novels and dating sims, because I own several and keep track of them - but only those available on the PS2. Some thoughts:
Lijakaca 18:50, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm somewhat curious as to why this project explicitly bans "American visual novels inspired from their Japanese counterparts made entirely in English for English-speaking audiences." Apart from the obvious problems with this phrasing (what if the game was made by a Brit? Or a Slovak?), it seems somewhat odd to discriminate based on where a game is made.
Note that this is still mostly hypothetical, as I don't believe that there are any OEL games that meet the criteria for inclusion. I would expect that to change over the next few years, however. — PyTom 07:13, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I think Sprung qualifies as an OEL visual novel, btw.-- SeizureDog ( talk) 11:16, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Right now, Eroge has a massively incomplete list of games, a list that is mostly redundant to Category:H games. The eroge list has one advantage over the category— it distinguishes between translated and untranslated games. I'm considering doing the following reorganization:
Does anyone have any comments on or objections to this plan? — PyTom 19:59, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
It has been suggested by myself to merge Wikipedia:WikiProject Visual novels into Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games as a task force. A rationale is viewable at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games#Proposed WikiProject merger. Please place all comments there; this is merely a notice to inform related parties.-- 十 八 21:16, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
The infobox in Japanese Wikipedia's article on Leaf seperates their games into seperate visual novel and AVG sections. But wait, I thought visual novels and AVGs were basically the same thing. Granted, AVGs can refer to any adventure game, but Kusari doesn't look like Myst or anything. I'm completely confused now, can someone explain this seperation? It seems that Kusari also has a item collecting element to it, so I'm wondering if being capable of doing anything than selecting answer responces causes a game to technically not be a visual novel. -- SeizureDog ( talk) 06:15, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
It appears that the term "visual novel" has become yet another Japanese term whose meaning slightly differs in English. So it seems that we need to decide what it exactly means to us.
Right now, the current system appears to be as such:
The question though, is how much interactivity does a game have to have before we consider it a plain ol' adventure game instead of just a visual novel? Specific games to think over:
This seems to be a tricky issue. Thoughts?-- SeizureDog ( talk) 00:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Category:Dating sims has now been purged of all non-dating sim games. The two entries I am unsure of are Sakura Wars (its genre seems rather complicated) and Season of the Sakura (I can't figure out its Japanese title to check). Not surprisingly, the cat is now quite sparse.-- SeizureDog ( talk) 04:08, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Part of the problem is that the Peter Payne Zaibatsu (J-List, Peach Princess, G-Collections, JAST USA etc.) consistently uses "dating sim" for all their games. They produce most of the commercial translations of these games, so the term has grown in popularity. When I tell people Ren'Py makes visual novels, they look at me as if I had three heads. When I then tell them it makes dating sims, they tend to know what that is. — PyTom ( talk) 07:59, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Previously all visual novels were grouped under WP:MANGA, and the two projects will still overlap tremendously in scope. Would this project perhaps be better as a task force, where it could benefit from the higher visability of WP:MANGA? -- tjstrf talk 07:53, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Article assessment usually works out really well, but the whole importance bit usually seems to flop for most WikiProjects. However, I think we can work up a system that should work well for our project.
Top: Visual novel and nothing else really.
High: Visual novels with anime adaptations (as these are the ones non-Japanese actually ever learn about); top five selling visual novels for each year or visual novels that are otherwise very popular; visual novels that are historically important for whatever reason (such as whichever one is first); articles that cover a large series of visual novels (e.g. Rance); companies that produce visual novels of high importance (e.g. Navel) or that just produce a lot (over 15).
Medium: Most translated visual novels (basically, stuff you can find on J-list); visual novels by companies of high importance that aren't of high importance themselves; popular visual novel characters (e.g. Saber (Fate/stay night)); "List of characters in..."; companies that produced between 5 and 15 unimportant visual novels.
Low: Visual novel characters not so popular (but still important enough to have their own article); visual novels nobody's ever heard of that should be added just for completeness' sake; companies that produced less than 5 unimportant visual novels.
Thoughts?-- SeizureDog 14:45, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Unlike WP:ANIME, I don't think there will be enough members here to warrant a category, and a participant list would be easy to manage. I think a list should replace/be used with the member category. _dk 18:10, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Maybe it's about time that a unique infobox, modelled on the visual novel infoboxes of the Japanese wiki. As it is currently, it seems we are using a variety of boxes to provide information, which were not specifically created for this purpose.
It would include additional information such as the number of endings, whether or not it is fully voiced, ratings and the genre (for example, visual novel, love adventure, or the other classifications the Japanese use). Karn-b 15:55, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, I've translated the Japanese infobox used. The infobox is classified under "美少女ゲーム系" on the Japanese wiki, which is roughly "beautiful girl games..."...not too sure what we call it in English though....
In reality, I think only the following would be relevant to an English audience:
I think the information should be put in an info box to help differentiate the genre from other "normal" games.
Karn-b 15:40, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Karn-b 05:42, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
For any infobox I think less is more. Remember, the infobox is not a place to repeat every tiny little tidbit or stat. On that note, I'd axe "number of discs". -- Ned Scott 06:31, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, here's the Japanese version of the animanga infobox. I know the amount of detail is overkill but it might give us ideas while we're at it: <Infobox removed due to layout issues> Karn-b 14:46, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I thought it would be a good idea to make up a list of which visual novels our members have played. Please add yours here. This could very likely end up being a very short list.... Anywaysm I recently bought a Japanese PS2, so I've been wanting to get a visual novel for it, but I only know of six that exist for it: all of Key's work, Shuffle! On the Stage, and Snow. Anyone know of some others I should keep my eye out for?-- SeizureDog 18:45, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
SeizureDog mentioned on Talk:Air (series) that we need to find a reliable VN review site. Fortunately, one exists. Getchu.com has a wealth of VN reviews, as well as sales information and lists of merchandise, etc. It seems to be quite popular in Japan and a reliable source. It should prove very helpful in providing references, as it keeps a list of the top-selling VNs of every fiscal year! Notice that I referenced the sales info over at Fate/stay night using the site. I hope this helps with any referencing or research. Moogy (talk) 14:35, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Is Yumeria a visual novel? It appears to be so from the benchmark/demo program. -- Squilibob 10:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Bishōjo game, Dating sim, Visual novel, and Eroge. Four articles on almost the same subject and four articles that are a major headache to sort through. Here are the problems as I see them:
I say if this project is to move forward, we need to get our main articles sorted out and making sense. Anyone up to the task of helping with these major merges?-- SeizureDog 13:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I think you're oversimplifying things, and while I see your point, the percentages you listed are just arbitrary overestimates...anyways, I'll respond point to point:
I think we shouldn't be making our own judgments on what a term actually means, I learned this the hard way. Also see the previous discussion on this that didn't go so well. Most of my points there remain intact. I also don't suggest rash actions based on partial knowledge. _dk 21:40, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I can't comment on whether the bishoujo game genre is a valid separate genre by itself. I can comment on female-targeted visual novels and dating sims, because I own several and keep track of them - but only those available on the PS2. Some thoughts:
Lijakaca 18:50, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm somewhat curious as to why this project explicitly bans "American visual novels inspired from their Japanese counterparts made entirely in English for English-speaking audiences." Apart from the obvious problems with this phrasing (what if the game was made by a Brit? Or a Slovak?), it seems somewhat odd to discriminate based on where a game is made.
Note that this is still mostly hypothetical, as I don't believe that there are any OEL games that meet the criteria for inclusion. I would expect that to change over the next few years, however. — PyTom 07:13, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I think Sprung qualifies as an OEL visual novel, btw.-- SeizureDog ( talk) 11:16, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Right now, Eroge has a massively incomplete list of games, a list that is mostly redundant to Category:H games. The eroge list has one advantage over the category— it distinguishes between translated and untranslated games. I'm considering doing the following reorganization:
Does anyone have any comments on or objections to this plan? — PyTom 19:59, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
It has been suggested by myself to merge Wikipedia:WikiProject Visual novels into Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games as a task force. A rationale is viewable at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games#Proposed WikiProject merger. Please place all comments there; this is merely a notice to inform related parties.-- 十 八 21:16, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
The infobox in Japanese Wikipedia's article on Leaf seperates their games into seperate visual novel and AVG sections. But wait, I thought visual novels and AVGs were basically the same thing. Granted, AVGs can refer to any adventure game, but Kusari doesn't look like Myst or anything. I'm completely confused now, can someone explain this seperation? It seems that Kusari also has a item collecting element to it, so I'm wondering if being capable of doing anything than selecting answer responces causes a game to technically not be a visual novel. -- SeizureDog ( talk) 06:15, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
It appears that the term "visual novel" has become yet another Japanese term whose meaning slightly differs in English. So it seems that we need to decide what it exactly means to us.
Right now, the current system appears to be as such:
The question though, is how much interactivity does a game have to have before we consider it a plain ol' adventure game instead of just a visual novel? Specific games to think over:
This seems to be a tricky issue. Thoughts?-- SeizureDog ( talk) 00:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Category:Dating sims has now been purged of all non-dating sim games. The two entries I am unsure of are Sakura Wars (its genre seems rather complicated) and Season of the Sakura (I can't figure out its Japanese title to check). Not surprisingly, the cat is now quite sparse.-- SeizureDog ( talk) 04:08, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Part of the problem is that the Peter Payne Zaibatsu (J-List, Peach Princess, G-Collections, JAST USA etc.) consistently uses "dating sim" for all their games. They produce most of the commercial translations of these games, so the term has grown in popularity. When I tell people Ren'Py makes visual novels, they look at me as if I had three heads. When I then tell them it makes dating sims, they tend to know what that is. — PyTom ( talk) 07:59, 11 December 2007 (UTC)