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Today, I have looked through each draft on a 800x600 monitor to see how they hold up. I have posted screenshots of each, for comparison. User:Kmf164/Drafts
-- Aude ( talk | contribs) 18:12, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
For comparison with the 800x600 comparison above. → Aza Toth 19:12, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Why use boxes within boxes for the titles ("Today's featured article", et al.) instead of handling it like drafts A and B did? Ral315 (talk) 21:01, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I moved the Featured pic up on the page and moved the DYK's down to the page spanning box but was quickly reverted [1]] by David, with the edit summary "Reverted. There's specific, consensus-backed logic behind this order." I'm just wondering; where can I find this consensus? I browsed through the archives and found no vote on the specific order the boxes must follow. "Logically" I would think that the featured content would be more featured. - Trevor MacInnis ( Talk | Contribs) 21:37, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
David, I for one would like to verify your conclusions. So please present the specific evidence upon which you base it. -- Go for it!
I agree with Trevor that the featured picture should be in the column. Drafts B (27), C (28), G (46), J (9), K (4), and L (11) had the picture in the column and got 125 votes. Drafts D (23) and H (27) were the only drafts with the picture at the bottom and they only got 50 votes. Two and a half more votes were placed for the drafts with the picture in a column. -- Go for it!
As I've explained to you on several occasions, building "consensus" is not about blindly tallying votes. Aside from the fact that your raw counts are grossly inaccurate (as I noted in a message that you ignored), you're failing to consider various important factors (including the specific comments that were made).
I was promoted to sysop on a platform that was based in part upon my ability to gauge and implement consensus. I'm helping to do so, despite the fact that some of the design elements (such as the standalone headings and search box) do not match by personal preferences.
HereToHelp has lived up to his name. Conversely, many of your edits (while certainly made in good faith) have been counterproductive. I realize that you're attempting to honor consensus, but you simply don't understand what that is. You've misinterpreted the results of the straw poll, and I respectfully request that you take a step back and give my advice some serious consideration. — David Levy 03:05, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
David, you said: "I read each and every one of the comments that were posted, assessed the meaning of and motivation behind the votes, observed the various trends and patterns, and sought as much common ground and compromise as possible." But you left us out of the process, skipped straight to your conclusions, leaving us sitting here with big question marks hanging over our heads. Please point out the specific comments to which you ascribe consensus. Vague answers will not do. You mentioned that it wasn't a scientific process, but at least it is still a process. Processes can be explained and replicated by others, so please go over the process as you followed it step-by-step so that we can understand how you arrived at your conclusions. -- Go for it!
Does anyone know how to force the Show/Hide button in the languages section to stay with the text it needs to be next to. At the moment, particularly at higher resolution screens, it floats off to the right and can be easily missed altogether. I notice that the Show/Hide button at the top of the page is also floating, this time off to the left and (for me) ending up over the Wikipedia logo. Obviously that isn't something that needs fixing, but it does show that this button can end up in weird places. Carcharoth 22:36, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
As a reminder, we still haven't fixed the major header display bug in Internet Explorer. (The top of the book image is cut off.) I can think of two potential methods of eliminating this problem, but I'm not familiar enough with the coding to implement either:
1. Switch to the type of code used in the header from some of the other designs (such as draft D), but replace the portal links with the search box and magnifying glass. (This displays properly in IE.)
or
2. Change the manner in which the book image is included to be the same as that of the magnifying glass (which displays properly in IE).
Does anyone know how to do either of these things (or an alternative solution)? I've tried and failed. — David Levy 23:04, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Also, when you hover over the text(any text in header on right side) a white background appears, staying even after the mouse leaves. This covers the image of the book. Flying Canuck 23:21, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I just changed the blue header color (right column) to a shade that is halfway between the hue value used in Draft C and that used in Draft D/H/other drafts. Maybe this will make the color a little more appealing to those that preferred the blue/purple-gold colors. -- Aude ( talk | contribs) 23:11, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
The colors of the visible light spectrum.
(adapted from the Wikipedia article,
color) --
Aude (
talk |
contribs)
19:24, 5 February 2006 (UTC).
Color | Hue | Saturation Brightness levels used in draft |
Slightly less brightness |
---|---|---|---|
red | Hue: 0 | Sat: 15%, B: 96% | Sat: 15%, B: 93% |
orange | Hue: 30 | Sat: 15%, B: 96% | Sat: 15%, B: 93% |
yellow | Hue: 60 | Sat: 15%, B: 96% | Sat: 15%, B: 93% |
green | Hue: 120 | Sat: 15%, B: 96% | Sat: 15%, B: 93% |
cyan | Hue: 180 | Sat: 15%, B: 96% | Sat: 15%, B: 93% |
cyan-blue David, Chief Seattle |
Hue: 206 | Sat: 15%, B: 96% | Sat: 15%, B: 93% |
cyan-blue Kmf164, Trevor |
Hue: 217 | Sat: 15%, B: 96% | Sat: 15%, B: 93% |
blue | Hue: 240 | Sat: 15%, B: 96% | Sat: 15%, B: 93% |
violet | Hue: 278 | Sat: 15%, B: 96% | Sat: 15%, B: 93% |
magenta | Hue: 320 | Sat: 15%, B: 96% | Sat: 15%, B: 93% |
red | Hue: 360 | Sat: 15%, B: 96% | Sat: 15%, B: 93% |
This issue is indeed very likely to be about the way different monitors display colours. There can be an amazingly wide variation between monitors. There is monitor calibration software available that could theoretically be used to make sure any two monitors display colours the same way, and I've seen them in use. After a while, the colours drift away from the calibration standard, so you have to keep recalibrating after a set number of days (depending on the quality of your monitor). So minor variation in colours is pointlessly debated unles you have colour-calibrated monitors, though I'm less certain about the difference between CRT and TFT and CRT and other monitor technologies. Hope that helps. Carcharoth 19:37, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Don't be worried about how the vote will turn out: there were about 5 votes for the current Main Page.-- HereToHelp ( talk • contribs) 20:25, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
All of the sections are arranged nicely, but the sections listed above are just kind of...there. Are there any ways to better integrate these sections, or make them look nicer? Morgan695 00:07, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Kevin's misty heading design works well for this section. I agree with Trevor's suggesting that we use it there. -- Go for it!
Citing census: Drafts B,C,G,J,K,&L had pic in column and got 125 votes. Only drafts D & H had pic in bottom box, and those only got 50 votes. [edit summary by Go for it!, 00:52, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I think featured picture shoiuld replace selected anniversaries. Kevin Baas talk 01:52, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Would it be possible to get the Featured Picture and On This Day sections to line up? With Firefox the On This Day is maybe 10 pixels higher than the Featured Picture but has extra space at the bottom. I think they would look much nicer with the titles lined up with each other.-- SirNuke 02:04, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Only if the articles are placed in seperate boxes, which would create a line of white space above them. The consensus on the drafts presented in Round 6 favored the style with multiple features in the same box. The spacing of the articles under this format is automatic, and placement changes day-to-day based on how long the various articles are. Tomorrow, the won't line up by a different amount. See the Main Page alternate (blue boy) as an example of lining things up. -- Go for it!
FYI - the Show/Hide button isn't there (doesn't render) with the "Classic" skin which some of us oldtimers still use. hydnjo talk 02:21, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Which header do we use: the serach bar (redundant, but sometimes that's good) or the Portals (which can easily be added browsebar style just below the header)? I say the search bar because it does not detract from the Portals: they're there anyway. Maybe not as prominently, but hey, the search function is the best way to find stuff.-- HereToHelp ( talk • contribs) 02:43, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I would support keeping both the search box and an expanded selection of portals. If a way could be found to aesthetically include both. Though icons should be saved for a Main Page alternate. -- Go for it!
Also, the IE display bug problem is resolved with the portal links header. Though, think I have a solution for the bug, with the other header. -- Aude ( talk | contribs) 03:10, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
The Portals will be displayed with the search bar in the browsebar style; we can make them bigger. Put the Portals in the header and you lose the additional search bar completely.-- HereToHelp ( talk • contribs) 03:15, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
We need to come to an agreement on this. I prefer the version without the search box, but I would rather settle for the version with the search box than risk messing up the entire election. It isn't that big of a deal!
In all honesty, I think that we should give the nod to the version with the search box (despite my personal preference). As I've attempted to stress, consensus is not determined via a raw vote count. While the opinion was split practically down the middle, the proponents of the search box expressed far stronger feelings than the opponents did. Some people stressed the fact that its inclusion was the single most important thing to them, and I don't recall reading any such sentiment regarding the boxed portal links (or the search box's exclusion). I personally believe that the page is better without the redundant search box, but its inclusion doesn't bother me very much. This seems to be the prevailing consensus; most users are either supportive or fairly apathetic. I feel that we would upset considerably more people with the search box's exclusion than we would with its inclusion. (Keep in mind that I'm placing the welfare of the project ahead of my personal opinion.)
Another issue to consider is that the search box version is more scalable; we can add or remove a portal link without throwing off the balance of the columns. This version also displays without horizontal scrolling in the 800x600 screen captures.
The appearance and location of the site-wide search box vary depending upon the skin. — David Levy 03:31, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Kmf, that design you posted above looks like it has potential. Please put it in the draft, so we can work on it. I'd like to try my hand at it. -- Go for it!
I'll suggest again, that a possibly ideal compromise would be to Highlight the main location of the search bar, but just on the main page (in the default skin):
is it possible for us to implement this? if so, we'd just have to discuss where to add the "956,334 articles" statement. -- Quiddity 01:33, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
What is the purpose of having two search fields: one in the upper right and one on the left? Are different results obtained? Thanks Hmains 23:29, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
ok, thanks Hmains 23:37, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
also it is still being discussed above in the "Header style" section. -- Quiddity 01:36, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree that there shouldn't be an extra search box. Duplicating this element makes no sense. Kmf's idea is an excellent compromise. -- Go for it! 00:27, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
The Wikipedia:Main Page alternates page just got completed. It contains versions of the Main Page for special needs (such as for those with cell phones or scrawny laptops), and alternate styles as well. Some of the versions from Round 6 have already found their way there. I've also placed a couple entirely new designs there that weren't in Round 6.
Because not everybody is going to like the Main Page, whatever it turns out to be, we should put a link on the Main Page leading to the alternates, in the hopes they will find happiness there. Preferably the link should go in the header somewhere, so it is noticed by all. Any objections? -- Go for it!
Thanks for the link to Wikipedia:Main Page alternates. I bookmarked that straightaway! Carcharoth 09:27, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
From a pure visual interpretation perspective, I find it difficult to read the "anyone can edit" link in the uppermost box, due to its location just under the bold underline of Wikipedia. Can it be moved, or the underline of Wikipedia be made a bit less bold, so that this important point be clearer to the newbie user? Alba 05:18, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Having had a look, I think that it looks much better and makes more sense for sister projects to be above the "Wikipedia in other languages" section. Apologies if this already been debated and discounted. SeanMack 09:35, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
There needs to be a line of white space in the "Did You Know" box, between "From Wikipedia's newest articles" and the following text. I tried to check the Main Page to see what it looks like there, but it is not there today (being the weekend). The other problem is that this involves the layout of one of the templates, specifically Template:Second feature (main page), and the Main Page templates are protected against editing. What can be done about this? Note also, that this might not be a problem with the template, but something wrong with this page, as when you visit the template page, there does not seem to be a lack of white space between those two lines. But we really need to see "Did You Know" when it is back on the Main Page, to see how it displays there. Carcharoth 09:49, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I noticed some comments in the discussions of draft 6 that some of the links in the Community links area were inappropriate, specifically the Donations link. The Reference Desk is also out of place, as that is a service for readers, not the Wikipedia community of editors. So I've removed those.
I also agree with the comments that the whole section is overdone and not strictly needed. It is the only place on the Draft where we have short bits of text trying to _explain_ things to people. Everywhere else, people are expected to click through to an explanation. I would propose having this community section as just a grouping of links, like the portals bar and browse bar at the top. There are four links at the moment (Community, Help, Village Pump, Signpost). Maybe some more can be added by looking for suitable links at the Community Portal?
Also, some of this duplicates what is in the browsebar. This is not a completely bad thing, as the browse bar and community bar (which I guess is what I am proposing) would perform different functions, but might still overlap. Carcharoth 10:02, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
What does the word "community" mean to you? What are the characteristics of a "community" page? -- Go for it! 10:30, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Go for it!, I disagree with the amount of links you are adding to the Community section and I also disagree with adding the line or two of explanations - a suitable title for each link should be self-explanatory (just as in the browse bar). I think this area should just be a way for people to explore the Community areas for the first time, clicking on links that they findd interesting. So just four to six links to well-chosen areas. The other links can be reached from those links. I also agree with the person who said that linking the header is not needed. What do you think? Carcharoth 11:17, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Haven't had time to pare down the links in the Community section, but I've added a note to the talk page at Wikipedia:Community_Portal to ask for suggestions for the best 4-6 links from that rather overwhelming page. I think any Community Section on the Main Page should be a gentle introduction to the community areas. Carcharoth 12:26, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I'd just like to re-iterate my earlier comments that the community section is inappropriate for the main page, as it totally ignores the fact the main page is for our readers, not editors or people involved in the community (who, in fact, tend to avoid the main page for other areas). Raul654 01:37, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Again, picking up on what some people said in the discussions of draft 6, the browse bar contains several different types of links: stuff aimed at first-time visitors and first-time and long-term readers of Wikipedia (About, FAQs, Browse, Articles A-Z), plus stuff for first-time editors (How to edit) and more experienced editors (Help Desk). Then there is site news, which links to what is essentially a mix of community links and media links, and then the donations link. There is no "contact us" link. That is at the bottom of the page.
I propose: (1) Putting the donations link with the contact link at the bottom of the page; (2) Putting the site news link in the Community section (I think how to edit and help are enough for the browse bar - no community stuff should be in the browse bar - regular readers and editors can set their own bookmarks or have their own page - I use the Community Portal link in the sidebar anyway).
If there is really a need for a link for the general public to find out sitewide news, that should go to a better page anyway - some wikimedia press officer site or something. And it could be linked from the "sister projects section", or a "wikimedia news" link could be added next to the contact us link and the (proposed) donations link, at the bottom of the page.
My final thought is to put the reference desk link that I removed from the Community section, back into the browse bar. It goes nicely with the browse option. I'm only going to do this final option, as I want to see what people think before making what may be considered drastic changes. It would also be nice to have icons for my proposed donations link and news link at the bottom of the page, together with the nice "contact us" icon that is there already. Carcharoth 10:51, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
The Browse by topic bar wraps on the default setup of Firefox on Linux on a 1024x768 fullscreen window; the 'Technology' tab is in the middle of the next line. If I use Ctrl-- to shrink the font the button on the search just above goes off the right of the screen. 86.16.134.121 13:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
The headers of the bottom three sections are now linked. The links for the first two (Community and Languages) are duplicated in the sections. The link for the Wikipedia sister projects one (that I added) is not. Firstly, is linking the headers a good idea? (I think it can look bad) Secondly, if the linking of headers is not carried through, can the link I found please be preserved. In fact, I'll put it in the section itself, so all three sections duplicate the link in the headers. Carcharoth 11:38, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
How should we make the headers on the last three sections. david Levy supports a monochromatic version of the other headers. I'm okay with that, but it can look kind of dull ("Hey! Why don't you use colors here? Some computer fluke?"). I like regular (==Text==) headers, but there's one issue. We're not supposed to have links in the headers (it's one of those rules that isn't enforced, but on the Main Page...) I'm at a loss; anyone else have an opinion or idea?-- HereToHelp ( talk • contribs) 13:33, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I've been looking at the Wikipedia:New_user_log link from the Community section. It is a nice idea, but I had the thought that, unlike all the other links, this one might not be as carefully watched for undesirable content. As the Main Page gets such a lot of traffic, especially with new users, do we want to avoid them coming across potentially strange postings in the new users log area? First impressions can be important. Similar thoughts would apply to all of the static (ie. outside the feature boxes) links from the Main Page. Also, this Wikipedia:New_user_log could be the first link someone might click on to find out about the Wikipedia community. What is the very _best_ welcoming page that exists on Wikipedia? (Friendly, well-written, well-balanced, informative). That link should go at the top of this "Main Page Community section". Carcharoth 18:00, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Seeing that most of the useful links in this section are linked on the left bar anyway, I'm not sure how necessary this is. I think the Main Page should remain a browsing (rather than editing) oriented approach to Wikipedia. Those who want anything else can click "Community Portal". -- Oldak Quill 03:43, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
About the objections that Raul and others are raising, would they be adequately addressed if the Community section was a Community _bar_ instead? Like the portal bar, but just a row of 4-6 links that people could click on? On the other hand, if the Community links need to go, then what about the last in the list of sister projects? The Meta-Wiki link is certainly not aimed at general readers, and you could argue that the "other languages" section (being mainly for editors) could be replaced by a single link to something like the multilingual portal, just to make readers aware that other languages are available. Carcharoth 07:10, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
In the "other languages" section, should the "over 1000" language editions be hidden by default and only shown using a Show/Hide button? Hydnjo said up above that the Show/Hide button doesn't even appear in the "Classic" skin. I've been asking around, and the Show/Hide button seems to be a navigational frame javascript feature that is part of the Monobook css settings. See MediaWiki:Monobook.css. There seems to be something at the bottom of that page about "a.NavToggle", which might be the right thing. Can anyone who knows more about this: (a) Decide whether it matters that Show/Hide only appears in the (default) Monobook skin; (b) Find out from this link to the Monobook css settings whether it is possible to force the Show/Hide button to appear immediately after the "Wikipedia encyclopedia languages with over 1,000 articles" bit. Thanks. Carcharoth 11:09, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
The revised page looked good. My only minor issue would be with the "Wikipedia's sister projects" section. At certain browser widths, some of the text start below the icons while for others it begins in-line with the icon. That just makes it look a little untidy. I think it would look better with a break just after each icon so that the text starts below. Thanks. — RJH 15:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I have been looking into ways to modify the appearance of the left search box. I have figured out how to make the word search into a tab, with the word "search" bold and colored. Also, it's possible to modify the background color of the div box that encompasses the search box. Though, the .css code I used to do that applies the color to the navigation and toolbox, also. I somewhat like all the boxes with some color, but with a slight modification (add an "id" tag) to the monobook source code, the background color could be applied to just the search div box. The .css codes for these changes are in my monobook, User:Kmf164/monobook.css. -- Aude ( talk | contribs) 17:14, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
There is a slight formatting problem when viewing with Opera 8.51. In the "Wikipedia in other languages" box there is the line "Wikipedia encyclopedia languages with over 1,000 articles [Show]", but the link causes the word "articles" to wrap to the next line and overwrite "Multilingual". Alan Pascoe 20:43, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
The proposal up there now has too many pastel boxes. The colors don't improve the page; they make it harder to read. If this is the proposal, I'd rather keep the main page we have now. Jonathunder 23:20, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Go for it! keep putting up versions that a) IMHO, are just plain ugly, and more importantly B) use a slew of Portals. I'm not opposed to some Portals but all of them is just too much. It distorts the header (again the ugliness factor) and some of the Portals are not ver good. They are not maintained enough to warrant such high visibility. I appreciate the attempt at compromise, but please, use the show preview button and don't save "work in progress" versions. Use a sandbox, please!-- HereToHelp ( talk • contribs) 00:29, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Expanded portal coverage got much support in the poll, both in matrix style and in icon style. We can fix the ugliness factor (like putting the magnifying glass back in, etc.). -- Go for it!
The portals can be easily fixed, and with higher traffic due to being posted on the Main Page there will be more users to maintain them. Also, Wikipedia's usage is growing at an alarming rate, so more users will become available for this all the time. All that really matters is that the portals be ready for display by the time of the election. And they certainly will be. But it would help if you would be more specific - which portals aren't ready and how? -- Go for it!
If you like, David, go ahead and lock the page to force us to talk rather than just use edit summaries.
The issues that people disagree on:
We can either talk about this or do separate straw polls on each aspect.-- HereToHelp ( talk • contribs) 00:46, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
If running more polls will make you happy, then do it. -- Go for it! 01:09, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
The search box is getting plenty of opposition (see the header/search box discussion above). No consensus was arrived at for duplicating the search box which is already on every page. It has been strongly opposed in every Round of this redesign effort. We need to remove it or integrate it with expanded portal coverage so that everyone is happy. Why are you not willing to compromise? I'll support a search box if you can find an aesthetically pleasing way to include both it and the portal matrix in the header. -- Go for it! 01:09, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I've tried to be patient and assume good faith, but I have a difficult time believing that you're unaware of the massive opposition to header icons and colorful styling in the reference box.
And incidentally, because HTH mentioned the 3RR, I'll note that less than two days ago, you violated it by reverting five times with a couple of hours. (Ironically, you warned HTH about the 3RR in the edit summary of your fifth reversion.) I didn't report you (and I don't intend to do so in the future), but I can't promise that another admin won't block you if it happens again. Please be careful. — David Levy 01:29, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
This is not a book. Websites are a better analogy. Kevin Baas talk 15:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
There are now several alternate main pages listed on the
Main Page alternates page. So there is now a way for users to select a different version of the Main Page based upon their specific needs and tastes. There's one for PDA's, another for laptops, etc. There are also different styles, some from Round 6 and some new. Since the best place for a link to the Main Page alternates page would be on the Main Page, this looks like the best place to discuss this issue.
It would be nice if we could provide a link in the draft. It would greatly help ease the shock of those who don't like whatever design we come up with, because they would have alternates to choose from. Some people will hate the new design no matter what it looks like. So perhaps this is a way we can appease more of the users. It also ensures that all major design approaches are made available after the election is over. After the election, the Main Page alternates page could also include the current Main Page design for those who don't want to part with it. --
Go for it!
01:24, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps we should discuss placement of an optional and temporary general notice box. There will be a number of circumstances under which we may want to include a message on the front page (ArbCom elections, Fund drives, etc.), and it might be prudent to create a box designed to match the rest of the Main page, for any such notice. At the very least we should probably agree on some general placement options. -- Ec5618 01:34, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Good idea, especially concerning style consistency. The box could be left within comment delimiters on the source for use when it is needed. -- Go for it! 01:38, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if I am doing this right, if I am commenting in the right place, or if I am even allowed to comment (since I am really just a reader and an uncyclopedian coming over here to steal your code) but I would just like to say that i think this without the fading blue title bars is drastically superior to this with them. Please feel free to delete this comment or move it to the correct place if I have erred in posting here. -- Isra1337 02:39, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I just like to say the current setup looks unprofessionnal.At least put the different portals in a menu setup and not spaced with pipes.It's like a trip back to the pre-visual browsers.If anything this is not good GUI design and definately not for the general public (I have experience in this field).Anway I wasn't able to vote due to a computer failure in the last few days,but I did now http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Usability/Main_Page/Draft/Header_poll
you can read my comments there.-- Technosphere83 10:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I'd prefer to see this taking up less space, and continuing the 2-column look of the top sections. The size of the picure is fine, but I think there's too much text there. Just the picture and a link to the article would be better, I think. Then the "Other areas" could go in a column alongside.
Just a thought. Waggers 12:09, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
OK, looks like the Main Page redesign is solidifying. As the current maintainer of WP:POTD, can I clarify; is the future intention to have the POTD on the MainPage every day? -- Solipsist 20:15, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Well currently we use about five variables.
Image size would be a popular 6th parameter, especially to reduce the size of the condensed POTD. At the moment, I've got three generating templates that are used to subst the content on three different formats for PictureOfTheDay, POTD and MainPage:Today'sSecondFeature ({{ Generate_POTD_T}}, {{ Generate_POTD_C}}, {{ Generate_POTD_M}}). It is relatively easy to generate each POTD format by copying the text and parameters for the first POTD template and pasting it into the others whilst changing one letter in the template name.
On Commons, the Picture of the Day is handled through double template transclusion, as used in User:Kmf164's example above. A little while back that didn't work, but it does now and it is probably the way to go for the redesign. The main drawback is that it will lead to a lot of protecting and unprotecting subpages each day.
The two primary caveats are:
Anyhow, I'm sure others will have some good ideas. -- Solipsist 21:39, 7 February 2006 (UTC) Anyhow
I don't know what the proper tag to use now that <font> is deprecated by W3, but could someone make the Wikipedia and anyone can edit links blue, even when they've been clicked in the past? Looks better for a logo not to have purple :)-- Urthogie 13:50, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
<span style="color:#00F;">
. CSS declarations would also work. —
Ambush Commander(
Talk)
21:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)I'm not completely sure we have a consensus or decision on using the second search box. The alternative to the second search box is tweaking monobook.css to make the existing, left search box (subtly) more noticeable. Right now, with my monobook.css, I have:
Any thought on this alternative to the second search box? -- Aude ( talk | contribs) 22:11, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
My personal bias is to put in all the bells and whistles. But so far there hasn't been a design which integrates the two features in a way that both sides here likes. But that's because the code is extremely difficult to work with (while much of it is buried in the css), with attempts getting reverted rather than refined. If there is a volunteer who is fluent in Wikipedia/html/css page markup, we could sure use your help to create a header design with both the portal matrix and the search box in it. -- Go for it! 18:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
This topic is now scattered across 3 sections, so i'll repeat: I'd advocate something more minimal, like this User:Quiddity/monobook.css. If we can make it MainPage only, that would be perfect. (I also agree with Kmf164 that google's search is vastly more efficient.) -- Quiddity 22:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I am very strongly Against having a second search box. Not because it is redundant, but because it has negative reinforcement for the actual search box's location. The only reason 2 search boxes works on amazon, is they ALWAYS have 2: 1 at top 1 at bottom (never both visible at once). We're proposing only having a 2nd box at the top on only the main page. That seems highly counter-intuitive. -- Quiddity 03:57, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
David - What was the formatting problem with IE? I tried it in IE and it was just fine. -- Aude ( talk | contribs) 22:16, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I also have the problem, but lower down. Also there seems to be some padding issues between the end of POTD and the reference section. I've taken a screenshot and put in some red markings to show you (like how they draw stuff around football players on TV). You can find the file here.-- HereToHelp ( talk • contribs) 02:48, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I've noticed the disagreement on the browsebar location. I think we can find a way to keep it above the header, yet accommodate non-graphical browsers. There has to be a hack for that. However, if we end up putting the portal links in the header, then it makes sense (visually) to leave the browsebar centered, below the header. -- Aude ( talk | contribs) 22:16, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Not surprisingly, David Levy/HeretoHelp is pushing Draft H. I've seen no attempt on their part to implement the consensus from the last round. They stated expressly that they would implement the most popular elements from the various drafts, but they've gone against their word. It's obvious that Draft H did not represent consensus, yet that's what they have been endeavoring to rebuild on the project page. If you don't believe me, just look at their edits. I'm beginning to strongly believe that the voters should be allowed to decide directly, as "consensus building" as touted by David Levy/HereToHelp amounts to a strong-armed pair of editors vigorously pushing their own agenda. When it comes down to it their main MO is reversion tactics paired with discussion rhetoric. The phrase "It's the Consensus" in their postings has become the equivalent of the phrase "It's God's Will", which, being totally unverifiable has been used throughout history to promote every form of lunacy under the sun. I think Draft H sucks, and that it represents the least common denominator rather than the best we can produce. I believe we could come up with a second Main Page candidate that blows it away. -- Go for it! 23:33, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
This page appears to indicate that the 2D version is a legitimate variant of the officially selected logo. Did I misinterpret an unofficial summary? — David Levy 02:48, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The featured picture certainly needs to go below the other content as it falsely gives the impression that it is the most appropriate and relevant part of the front page, as if this site is about pictures above all. violet/riga (t) 08:44, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
If you are restoring or reverting part of the page to an earlier version, please be careful to review the changes made after the version you are returning to. Otherwise you will end up throwing out other changes along with the ones that you are removing. I've now added back one change that was lost, and there may be others as well. Carcharoth 10:53, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The Wikipedia:Main_Page_alternates link is a good idea, but I agree with David Levy that that project is not yet far enough along to be linked from the Main Page. It is essential, as part of a "Usability" project to have links to things like that, but a clear distinction needs to be drawn between different styles (colours, boxes) and different layout (for PDAs, text browsers, blind users etc). Also, too many of the alternate pages have radically different links. People are introduced to Wikipedia in a completely different way with some of these pages - and end up on different pages. A clear lack of a unified approach. This would need to be much more carefully thought through before being implemented.
The other thought is whether you would need to protect all these pages from editing? If a lot of people are using a version that suffers from vandalism, that could be a disaster. I know the templates are protected, but the bits around it could still be vandalised. Would you protect all the versions? Would you accept new versions periodically. It sounds like a good idea, but a bit too late at this stage. I would suggest after this Main Page redesign is over, take the final version and make clear, simple changes (colour, text, number features, etc). Only A FEW CHANGES per version, and start a range of alternates that are based on the final redesign. Any other approach will make these alternates feel TOO different and this will be confusing. Carcharoth 11:23, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
1. See the above section for an explanation of why the "main page alternates link" should not be included at this juncture.
2. As previously noted, we mustn't introduce a design that makes Wikipedia less accessible for some of its readers. Demanding that visually-impaired people (among others) switch to a different page or tolerate confusing output is entirely unreasonable. As such, I've returned the browsebar to its sub-header position.
3. The gold coloring has consistently proven unpopular. This was true when I first added it to a draft, and the anti-gold sentiment remained prevalent throughout the straw poll. — David Levy 15:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't like the color. i think it could be better. so could the boxes. Kevin Baas talk 18:09, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Can editors please provide accurate edit summaries. It is very difficult to follow the changes if the summary only mentions one of the changes made. Either mention all the changes, or make the changes in incremental steps with separate edit summaries for each step. At the very least, put "and other minor changes". Otherwise changes can easily be missed. Carcharoth 17:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I've just spotted an example of poorly thought out and unco-ordinated editing. The order of the "other languages" and "sister projects" area was switched round, which is fair enough as several people expressed support for that. The trouble was that someone followed this up by stripping out "Wikipedia" from the headings, so now instead of "Wikipedia in other languages", you get the header "Other languages" immediately following the sister projects section. This means that it is no longer clear to the casual reader whether this "other languages" bit is referring to the sister projects, or just to Wikipedia. The links are to other language versions of Wikipedia, so I've restored "Wikipedia" to the header of the "other languages" section. There is often a reason for the way something is worded. It sometimes pays to stop and think before changing something. Carcharoth 17:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The vote in the last round was not decisive either way. Let's rationally consider the pros and cons of both options, taking into consideration all the feedback we had in the last "voting" round.
No offense, but perhaps you should describe what it is you're trying to accomplish. Did you intend to move the searchbox to underneath the header? It really breaks up the layout, and moves the actual content rather far down. -- Ec5618 00:43, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Maybe the issue of the extra search bar is far from being decided, but it seems in the above discussion that it would be acceptable to somehow highlight the one on the left and not have a second one? this seems like a good idea.. as it is, the user sees two search boxes and is faced with the somewhat confusing options of "Find", "Go", or "Search".. which do i choose? are they different? the difference between "Go" and "Search" is confusing enough as it is.. thankfully "Go" is in bold so i know which one's 'right'. 131.111.8.104 12:41, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
For some reason, everything below the header seems to be center (rather than aligned left). Can someone fix this please?-- HereToHelp ( talk • contribs) 02:58, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Hey, I like this new design! :-) (The one with the search bar and browse bar combined and placed below the header containing the taglines and the portal links). Only one minor point: the colour of the bit below the header seems to fade somewhat, but that is just a personal stylistic thing. Also, has anyone checked this header at different screen resolutions to see what happens? Carcharoth 09:08, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Only two very minor comments about stuff I'm not quite sure how to implement, so if someone else could do the editing that would be great:
1) Add borders to either side of the combined browse bar/search box bit below the header. This is the "fade-out" things I was referring to above. I realised it isn't a colour issue, but is a borders issue.
2) In the "Wikipedia languages" section would it be best for the "over x articles" bits to be aligned left as on the current main page?
Hope someone can try out these suggestions. Carcharoth 11:27, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Hey, I got an idea (I just can't program): Have the search box with the button on the same line aligned right above the Portals in the header, and it's little ine above it as the top thing on the page. Have the about stuff in italics aligned left, also above the header. Keep the Portals in the header, and cut out that blue stuff. You can reverse the alignings if you like.-- HereToHelp ( talk • contribs) 12:07, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Categories – Portals – Index – How to edit – Questions – Help |
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Odd. It's fine in Safari but not level in Firefox. Here's a sreenshot of both. If we can get this owrked out I really like it. Still, I like an area of whitespace similar to this draft over the gray. HereToHelp ( talk • contribs)
File:Main Page redesign header rendering issue safari and firefox .png
I've attempted to fix this problem, with the search box and button wrapping onto another line. Is your problem fixed? -- Aude ( talk | contribs) 22:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
This actually looks very nice... I really like the latest version of the main page. Keep up the good work everyone! - JustinWick 23:12, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
From one problem to the next...here's what I have now.-- HereToHelp ( talk • contribs) 00:06, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
File:Image-Main Page redesign header rendering issue safari and firefox 2.png.png
It helped. It's not cut off anymore but it is right next to the edge. What about another </div>?-- HereToHelp ( talk • contribs) 02:38, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
File:Main Page redesign header rendering issue safari and firefox 3.png
Welcome to Wikipedia Informationthe free encyclopedia that
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Until this page gets refactored, i'll repeat my comments from a section above:
starting Feb 19th
The navigation section has:
Perhaps this has been discussed before, but I find it very strange and unequal. It suggests that mathematics, history and geography are not regarded as science. TeunSpaans 17:58, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
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![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Today, I have looked through each draft on a 800x600 monitor to see how they hold up. I have posted screenshots of each, for comparison. User:Kmf164/Drafts
-- Aude ( talk | contribs) 18:12, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
For comparison with the 800x600 comparison above. → Aza Toth 19:12, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Why use boxes within boxes for the titles ("Today's featured article", et al.) instead of handling it like drafts A and B did? Ral315 (talk) 21:01, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I moved the Featured pic up on the page and moved the DYK's down to the page spanning box but was quickly reverted [1]] by David, with the edit summary "Reverted. There's specific, consensus-backed logic behind this order." I'm just wondering; where can I find this consensus? I browsed through the archives and found no vote on the specific order the boxes must follow. "Logically" I would think that the featured content would be more featured. - Trevor MacInnis ( Talk | Contribs) 21:37, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
David, I for one would like to verify your conclusions. So please present the specific evidence upon which you base it. -- Go for it!
I agree with Trevor that the featured picture should be in the column. Drafts B (27), C (28), G (46), J (9), K (4), and L (11) had the picture in the column and got 125 votes. Drafts D (23) and H (27) were the only drafts with the picture at the bottom and they only got 50 votes. Two and a half more votes were placed for the drafts with the picture in a column. -- Go for it!
As I've explained to you on several occasions, building "consensus" is not about blindly tallying votes. Aside from the fact that your raw counts are grossly inaccurate (as I noted in a message that you ignored), you're failing to consider various important factors (including the specific comments that were made).
I was promoted to sysop on a platform that was based in part upon my ability to gauge and implement consensus. I'm helping to do so, despite the fact that some of the design elements (such as the standalone headings and search box) do not match by personal preferences.
HereToHelp has lived up to his name. Conversely, many of your edits (while certainly made in good faith) have been counterproductive. I realize that you're attempting to honor consensus, but you simply don't understand what that is. You've misinterpreted the results of the straw poll, and I respectfully request that you take a step back and give my advice some serious consideration. — David Levy 03:05, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
David, you said: "I read each and every one of the comments that were posted, assessed the meaning of and motivation behind the votes, observed the various trends and patterns, and sought as much common ground and compromise as possible." But you left us out of the process, skipped straight to your conclusions, leaving us sitting here with big question marks hanging over our heads. Please point out the specific comments to which you ascribe consensus. Vague answers will not do. You mentioned that it wasn't a scientific process, but at least it is still a process. Processes can be explained and replicated by others, so please go over the process as you followed it step-by-step so that we can understand how you arrived at your conclusions. -- Go for it!
Does anyone know how to force the Show/Hide button in the languages section to stay with the text it needs to be next to. At the moment, particularly at higher resolution screens, it floats off to the right and can be easily missed altogether. I notice that the Show/Hide button at the top of the page is also floating, this time off to the left and (for me) ending up over the Wikipedia logo. Obviously that isn't something that needs fixing, but it does show that this button can end up in weird places. Carcharoth 22:36, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
As a reminder, we still haven't fixed the major header display bug in Internet Explorer. (The top of the book image is cut off.) I can think of two potential methods of eliminating this problem, but I'm not familiar enough with the coding to implement either:
1. Switch to the type of code used in the header from some of the other designs (such as draft D), but replace the portal links with the search box and magnifying glass. (This displays properly in IE.)
or
2. Change the manner in which the book image is included to be the same as that of the magnifying glass (which displays properly in IE).
Does anyone know how to do either of these things (or an alternative solution)? I've tried and failed. — David Levy 23:04, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Also, when you hover over the text(any text in header on right side) a white background appears, staying even after the mouse leaves. This covers the image of the book. Flying Canuck 23:21, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I just changed the blue header color (right column) to a shade that is halfway between the hue value used in Draft C and that used in Draft D/H/other drafts. Maybe this will make the color a little more appealing to those that preferred the blue/purple-gold colors. -- Aude ( talk | contribs) 23:11, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
The colors of the visible light spectrum.
(adapted from the Wikipedia article,
color) --
Aude (
talk |
contribs)
19:24, 5 February 2006 (UTC).
Color | Hue | Saturation Brightness levels used in draft |
Slightly less brightness |
---|---|---|---|
red | Hue: 0 | Sat: 15%, B: 96% | Sat: 15%, B: 93% |
orange | Hue: 30 | Sat: 15%, B: 96% | Sat: 15%, B: 93% |
yellow | Hue: 60 | Sat: 15%, B: 96% | Sat: 15%, B: 93% |
green | Hue: 120 | Sat: 15%, B: 96% | Sat: 15%, B: 93% |
cyan | Hue: 180 | Sat: 15%, B: 96% | Sat: 15%, B: 93% |
cyan-blue David, Chief Seattle |
Hue: 206 | Sat: 15%, B: 96% | Sat: 15%, B: 93% |
cyan-blue Kmf164, Trevor |
Hue: 217 | Sat: 15%, B: 96% | Sat: 15%, B: 93% |
blue | Hue: 240 | Sat: 15%, B: 96% | Sat: 15%, B: 93% |
violet | Hue: 278 | Sat: 15%, B: 96% | Sat: 15%, B: 93% |
magenta | Hue: 320 | Sat: 15%, B: 96% | Sat: 15%, B: 93% |
red | Hue: 360 | Sat: 15%, B: 96% | Sat: 15%, B: 93% |
This issue is indeed very likely to be about the way different monitors display colours. There can be an amazingly wide variation between monitors. There is monitor calibration software available that could theoretically be used to make sure any two monitors display colours the same way, and I've seen them in use. After a while, the colours drift away from the calibration standard, so you have to keep recalibrating after a set number of days (depending on the quality of your monitor). So minor variation in colours is pointlessly debated unles you have colour-calibrated monitors, though I'm less certain about the difference between CRT and TFT and CRT and other monitor technologies. Hope that helps. Carcharoth 19:37, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Don't be worried about how the vote will turn out: there were about 5 votes for the current Main Page.-- HereToHelp ( talk • contribs) 20:25, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
All of the sections are arranged nicely, but the sections listed above are just kind of...there. Are there any ways to better integrate these sections, or make them look nicer? Morgan695 00:07, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Kevin's misty heading design works well for this section. I agree with Trevor's suggesting that we use it there. -- Go for it!
Citing census: Drafts B,C,G,J,K,&L had pic in column and got 125 votes. Only drafts D & H had pic in bottom box, and those only got 50 votes. [edit summary by Go for it!, 00:52, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I think featured picture shoiuld replace selected anniversaries. Kevin Baas talk 01:52, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Would it be possible to get the Featured Picture and On This Day sections to line up? With Firefox the On This Day is maybe 10 pixels higher than the Featured Picture but has extra space at the bottom. I think they would look much nicer with the titles lined up with each other.-- SirNuke 02:04, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Only if the articles are placed in seperate boxes, which would create a line of white space above them. The consensus on the drafts presented in Round 6 favored the style with multiple features in the same box. The spacing of the articles under this format is automatic, and placement changes day-to-day based on how long the various articles are. Tomorrow, the won't line up by a different amount. See the Main Page alternate (blue boy) as an example of lining things up. -- Go for it!
FYI - the Show/Hide button isn't there (doesn't render) with the "Classic" skin which some of us oldtimers still use. hydnjo talk 02:21, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Which header do we use: the serach bar (redundant, but sometimes that's good) or the Portals (which can easily be added browsebar style just below the header)? I say the search bar because it does not detract from the Portals: they're there anyway. Maybe not as prominently, but hey, the search function is the best way to find stuff.-- HereToHelp ( talk • contribs) 02:43, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I would support keeping both the search box and an expanded selection of portals. If a way could be found to aesthetically include both. Though icons should be saved for a Main Page alternate. -- Go for it!
Also, the IE display bug problem is resolved with the portal links header. Though, think I have a solution for the bug, with the other header. -- Aude ( talk | contribs) 03:10, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
The Portals will be displayed with the search bar in the browsebar style; we can make them bigger. Put the Portals in the header and you lose the additional search bar completely.-- HereToHelp ( talk • contribs) 03:15, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
We need to come to an agreement on this. I prefer the version without the search box, but I would rather settle for the version with the search box than risk messing up the entire election. It isn't that big of a deal!
In all honesty, I think that we should give the nod to the version with the search box (despite my personal preference). As I've attempted to stress, consensus is not determined via a raw vote count. While the opinion was split practically down the middle, the proponents of the search box expressed far stronger feelings than the opponents did. Some people stressed the fact that its inclusion was the single most important thing to them, and I don't recall reading any such sentiment regarding the boxed portal links (or the search box's exclusion). I personally believe that the page is better without the redundant search box, but its inclusion doesn't bother me very much. This seems to be the prevailing consensus; most users are either supportive or fairly apathetic. I feel that we would upset considerably more people with the search box's exclusion than we would with its inclusion. (Keep in mind that I'm placing the welfare of the project ahead of my personal opinion.)
Another issue to consider is that the search box version is more scalable; we can add or remove a portal link without throwing off the balance of the columns. This version also displays without horizontal scrolling in the 800x600 screen captures.
The appearance and location of the site-wide search box vary depending upon the skin. — David Levy 03:31, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Kmf, that design you posted above looks like it has potential. Please put it in the draft, so we can work on it. I'd like to try my hand at it. -- Go for it!
I'll suggest again, that a possibly ideal compromise would be to Highlight the main location of the search bar, but just on the main page (in the default skin):
is it possible for us to implement this? if so, we'd just have to discuss where to add the "956,334 articles" statement. -- Quiddity 01:33, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
What is the purpose of having two search fields: one in the upper right and one on the left? Are different results obtained? Thanks Hmains 23:29, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
ok, thanks Hmains 23:37, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
also it is still being discussed above in the "Header style" section. -- Quiddity 01:36, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree that there shouldn't be an extra search box. Duplicating this element makes no sense. Kmf's idea is an excellent compromise. -- Go for it! 00:27, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
The Wikipedia:Main Page alternates page just got completed. It contains versions of the Main Page for special needs (such as for those with cell phones or scrawny laptops), and alternate styles as well. Some of the versions from Round 6 have already found their way there. I've also placed a couple entirely new designs there that weren't in Round 6.
Because not everybody is going to like the Main Page, whatever it turns out to be, we should put a link on the Main Page leading to the alternates, in the hopes they will find happiness there. Preferably the link should go in the header somewhere, so it is noticed by all. Any objections? -- Go for it!
Thanks for the link to Wikipedia:Main Page alternates. I bookmarked that straightaway! Carcharoth 09:27, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
From a pure visual interpretation perspective, I find it difficult to read the "anyone can edit" link in the uppermost box, due to its location just under the bold underline of Wikipedia. Can it be moved, or the underline of Wikipedia be made a bit less bold, so that this important point be clearer to the newbie user? Alba 05:18, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Having had a look, I think that it looks much better and makes more sense for sister projects to be above the "Wikipedia in other languages" section. Apologies if this already been debated and discounted. SeanMack 09:35, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
There needs to be a line of white space in the "Did You Know" box, between "From Wikipedia's newest articles" and the following text. I tried to check the Main Page to see what it looks like there, but it is not there today (being the weekend). The other problem is that this involves the layout of one of the templates, specifically Template:Second feature (main page), and the Main Page templates are protected against editing. What can be done about this? Note also, that this might not be a problem with the template, but something wrong with this page, as when you visit the template page, there does not seem to be a lack of white space between those two lines. But we really need to see "Did You Know" when it is back on the Main Page, to see how it displays there. Carcharoth 09:49, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I noticed some comments in the discussions of draft 6 that some of the links in the Community links area were inappropriate, specifically the Donations link. The Reference Desk is also out of place, as that is a service for readers, not the Wikipedia community of editors. So I've removed those.
I also agree with the comments that the whole section is overdone and not strictly needed. It is the only place on the Draft where we have short bits of text trying to _explain_ things to people. Everywhere else, people are expected to click through to an explanation. I would propose having this community section as just a grouping of links, like the portals bar and browse bar at the top. There are four links at the moment (Community, Help, Village Pump, Signpost). Maybe some more can be added by looking for suitable links at the Community Portal?
Also, some of this duplicates what is in the browsebar. This is not a completely bad thing, as the browse bar and community bar (which I guess is what I am proposing) would perform different functions, but might still overlap. Carcharoth 10:02, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
What does the word "community" mean to you? What are the characteristics of a "community" page? -- Go for it! 10:30, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Go for it!, I disagree with the amount of links you are adding to the Community section and I also disagree with adding the line or two of explanations - a suitable title for each link should be self-explanatory (just as in the browse bar). I think this area should just be a way for people to explore the Community areas for the first time, clicking on links that they findd interesting. So just four to six links to well-chosen areas. The other links can be reached from those links. I also agree with the person who said that linking the header is not needed. What do you think? Carcharoth 11:17, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Haven't had time to pare down the links in the Community section, but I've added a note to the talk page at Wikipedia:Community_Portal to ask for suggestions for the best 4-6 links from that rather overwhelming page. I think any Community Section on the Main Page should be a gentle introduction to the community areas. Carcharoth 12:26, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I'd just like to re-iterate my earlier comments that the community section is inappropriate for the main page, as it totally ignores the fact the main page is for our readers, not editors or people involved in the community (who, in fact, tend to avoid the main page for other areas). Raul654 01:37, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Again, picking up on what some people said in the discussions of draft 6, the browse bar contains several different types of links: stuff aimed at first-time visitors and first-time and long-term readers of Wikipedia (About, FAQs, Browse, Articles A-Z), plus stuff for first-time editors (How to edit) and more experienced editors (Help Desk). Then there is site news, which links to what is essentially a mix of community links and media links, and then the donations link. There is no "contact us" link. That is at the bottom of the page.
I propose: (1) Putting the donations link with the contact link at the bottom of the page; (2) Putting the site news link in the Community section (I think how to edit and help are enough for the browse bar - no community stuff should be in the browse bar - regular readers and editors can set their own bookmarks or have their own page - I use the Community Portal link in the sidebar anyway).
If there is really a need for a link for the general public to find out sitewide news, that should go to a better page anyway - some wikimedia press officer site or something. And it could be linked from the "sister projects section", or a "wikimedia news" link could be added next to the contact us link and the (proposed) donations link, at the bottom of the page.
My final thought is to put the reference desk link that I removed from the Community section, back into the browse bar. It goes nicely with the browse option. I'm only going to do this final option, as I want to see what people think before making what may be considered drastic changes. It would also be nice to have icons for my proposed donations link and news link at the bottom of the page, together with the nice "contact us" icon that is there already. Carcharoth 10:51, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
The Browse by topic bar wraps on the default setup of Firefox on Linux on a 1024x768 fullscreen window; the 'Technology' tab is in the middle of the next line. If I use Ctrl-- to shrink the font the button on the search just above goes off the right of the screen. 86.16.134.121 13:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
The headers of the bottom three sections are now linked. The links for the first two (Community and Languages) are duplicated in the sections. The link for the Wikipedia sister projects one (that I added) is not. Firstly, is linking the headers a good idea? (I think it can look bad) Secondly, if the linking of headers is not carried through, can the link I found please be preserved. In fact, I'll put it in the section itself, so all three sections duplicate the link in the headers. Carcharoth 11:38, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
How should we make the headers on the last three sections. david Levy supports a monochromatic version of the other headers. I'm okay with that, but it can look kind of dull ("Hey! Why don't you use colors here? Some computer fluke?"). I like regular (==Text==) headers, but there's one issue. We're not supposed to have links in the headers (it's one of those rules that isn't enforced, but on the Main Page...) I'm at a loss; anyone else have an opinion or idea?-- HereToHelp ( talk • contribs) 13:33, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I've been looking at the Wikipedia:New_user_log link from the Community section. It is a nice idea, but I had the thought that, unlike all the other links, this one might not be as carefully watched for undesirable content. As the Main Page gets such a lot of traffic, especially with new users, do we want to avoid them coming across potentially strange postings in the new users log area? First impressions can be important. Similar thoughts would apply to all of the static (ie. outside the feature boxes) links from the Main Page. Also, this Wikipedia:New_user_log could be the first link someone might click on to find out about the Wikipedia community. What is the very _best_ welcoming page that exists on Wikipedia? (Friendly, well-written, well-balanced, informative). That link should go at the top of this "Main Page Community section". Carcharoth 18:00, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Seeing that most of the useful links in this section are linked on the left bar anyway, I'm not sure how necessary this is. I think the Main Page should remain a browsing (rather than editing) oriented approach to Wikipedia. Those who want anything else can click "Community Portal". -- Oldak Quill 03:43, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
About the objections that Raul and others are raising, would they be adequately addressed if the Community section was a Community _bar_ instead? Like the portal bar, but just a row of 4-6 links that people could click on? On the other hand, if the Community links need to go, then what about the last in the list of sister projects? The Meta-Wiki link is certainly not aimed at general readers, and you could argue that the "other languages" section (being mainly for editors) could be replaced by a single link to something like the multilingual portal, just to make readers aware that other languages are available. Carcharoth 07:10, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
In the "other languages" section, should the "over 1000" language editions be hidden by default and only shown using a Show/Hide button? Hydnjo said up above that the Show/Hide button doesn't even appear in the "Classic" skin. I've been asking around, and the Show/Hide button seems to be a navigational frame javascript feature that is part of the Monobook css settings. See MediaWiki:Monobook.css. There seems to be something at the bottom of that page about "a.NavToggle", which might be the right thing. Can anyone who knows more about this: (a) Decide whether it matters that Show/Hide only appears in the (default) Monobook skin; (b) Find out from this link to the Monobook css settings whether it is possible to force the Show/Hide button to appear immediately after the "Wikipedia encyclopedia languages with over 1,000 articles" bit. Thanks. Carcharoth 11:09, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
The revised page looked good. My only minor issue would be with the "Wikipedia's sister projects" section. At certain browser widths, some of the text start below the icons while for others it begins in-line with the icon. That just makes it look a little untidy. I think it would look better with a break just after each icon so that the text starts below. Thanks. — RJH 15:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I have been looking into ways to modify the appearance of the left search box. I have figured out how to make the word search into a tab, with the word "search" bold and colored. Also, it's possible to modify the background color of the div box that encompasses the search box. Though, the .css code I used to do that applies the color to the navigation and toolbox, also. I somewhat like all the boxes with some color, but with a slight modification (add an "id" tag) to the monobook source code, the background color could be applied to just the search div box. The .css codes for these changes are in my monobook, User:Kmf164/monobook.css. -- Aude ( talk | contribs) 17:14, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
There is a slight formatting problem when viewing with Opera 8.51. In the "Wikipedia in other languages" box there is the line "Wikipedia encyclopedia languages with over 1,000 articles [Show]", but the link causes the word "articles" to wrap to the next line and overwrite "Multilingual". Alan Pascoe 20:43, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
The proposal up there now has too many pastel boxes. The colors don't improve the page; they make it harder to read. If this is the proposal, I'd rather keep the main page we have now. Jonathunder 23:20, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Go for it! keep putting up versions that a) IMHO, are just plain ugly, and more importantly B) use a slew of Portals. I'm not opposed to some Portals but all of them is just too much. It distorts the header (again the ugliness factor) and some of the Portals are not ver good. They are not maintained enough to warrant such high visibility. I appreciate the attempt at compromise, but please, use the show preview button and don't save "work in progress" versions. Use a sandbox, please!-- HereToHelp ( talk • contribs) 00:29, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Expanded portal coverage got much support in the poll, both in matrix style and in icon style. We can fix the ugliness factor (like putting the magnifying glass back in, etc.). -- Go for it!
The portals can be easily fixed, and with higher traffic due to being posted on the Main Page there will be more users to maintain them. Also, Wikipedia's usage is growing at an alarming rate, so more users will become available for this all the time. All that really matters is that the portals be ready for display by the time of the election. And they certainly will be. But it would help if you would be more specific - which portals aren't ready and how? -- Go for it!
If you like, David, go ahead and lock the page to force us to talk rather than just use edit summaries.
The issues that people disagree on:
We can either talk about this or do separate straw polls on each aspect.-- HereToHelp ( talk • contribs) 00:46, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
If running more polls will make you happy, then do it. -- Go for it! 01:09, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
The search box is getting plenty of opposition (see the header/search box discussion above). No consensus was arrived at for duplicating the search box which is already on every page. It has been strongly opposed in every Round of this redesign effort. We need to remove it or integrate it with expanded portal coverage so that everyone is happy. Why are you not willing to compromise? I'll support a search box if you can find an aesthetically pleasing way to include both it and the portal matrix in the header. -- Go for it! 01:09, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I've tried to be patient and assume good faith, but I have a difficult time believing that you're unaware of the massive opposition to header icons and colorful styling in the reference box.
And incidentally, because HTH mentioned the 3RR, I'll note that less than two days ago, you violated it by reverting five times with a couple of hours. (Ironically, you warned HTH about the 3RR in the edit summary of your fifth reversion.) I didn't report you (and I don't intend to do so in the future), but I can't promise that another admin won't block you if it happens again. Please be careful. — David Levy 01:29, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
This is not a book. Websites are a better analogy. Kevin Baas talk 15:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
There are now several alternate main pages listed on the
Main Page alternates page. So there is now a way for users to select a different version of the Main Page based upon their specific needs and tastes. There's one for PDA's, another for laptops, etc. There are also different styles, some from Round 6 and some new. Since the best place for a link to the Main Page alternates page would be on the Main Page, this looks like the best place to discuss this issue.
It would be nice if we could provide a link in the draft. It would greatly help ease the shock of those who don't like whatever design we come up with, because they would have alternates to choose from. Some people will hate the new design no matter what it looks like. So perhaps this is a way we can appease more of the users. It also ensures that all major design approaches are made available after the election is over. After the election, the Main Page alternates page could also include the current Main Page design for those who don't want to part with it. --
Go for it!
01:24, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps we should discuss placement of an optional and temporary general notice box. There will be a number of circumstances under which we may want to include a message on the front page (ArbCom elections, Fund drives, etc.), and it might be prudent to create a box designed to match the rest of the Main page, for any such notice. At the very least we should probably agree on some general placement options. -- Ec5618 01:34, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Good idea, especially concerning style consistency. The box could be left within comment delimiters on the source for use when it is needed. -- Go for it! 01:38, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if I am doing this right, if I am commenting in the right place, or if I am even allowed to comment (since I am really just a reader and an uncyclopedian coming over here to steal your code) but I would just like to say that i think this without the fading blue title bars is drastically superior to this with them. Please feel free to delete this comment or move it to the correct place if I have erred in posting here. -- Isra1337 02:39, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I just like to say the current setup looks unprofessionnal.At least put the different portals in a menu setup and not spaced with pipes.It's like a trip back to the pre-visual browsers.If anything this is not good GUI design and definately not for the general public (I have experience in this field).Anway I wasn't able to vote due to a computer failure in the last few days,but I did now http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Usability/Main_Page/Draft/Header_poll
you can read my comments there.-- Technosphere83 10:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I'd prefer to see this taking up less space, and continuing the 2-column look of the top sections. The size of the picure is fine, but I think there's too much text there. Just the picture and a link to the article would be better, I think. Then the "Other areas" could go in a column alongside.
Just a thought. Waggers 12:09, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
OK, looks like the Main Page redesign is solidifying. As the current maintainer of WP:POTD, can I clarify; is the future intention to have the POTD on the MainPage every day? -- Solipsist 20:15, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Well currently we use about five variables.
Image size would be a popular 6th parameter, especially to reduce the size of the condensed POTD. At the moment, I've got three generating templates that are used to subst the content on three different formats for PictureOfTheDay, POTD and MainPage:Today'sSecondFeature ({{ Generate_POTD_T}}, {{ Generate_POTD_C}}, {{ Generate_POTD_M}}). It is relatively easy to generate each POTD format by copying the text and parameters for the first POTD template and pasting it into the others whilst changing one letter in the template name.
On Commons, the Picture of the Day is handled through double template transclusion, as used in User:Kmf164's example above. A little while back that didn't work, but it does now and it is probably the way to go for the redesign. The main drawback is that it will lead to a lot of protecting and unprotecting subpages each day.
The two primary caveats are:
Anyhow, I'm sure others will have some good ideas. -- Solipsist 21:39, 7 February 2006 (UTC) Anyhow
I don't know what the proper tag to use now that <font> is deprecated by W3, but could someone make the Wikipedia and anyone can edit links blue, even when they've been clicked in the past? Looks better for a logo not to have purple :)-- Urthogie 13:50, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
<span style="color:#00F;">
. CSS declarations would also work. —
Ambush Commander(
Talk)
21:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)I'm not completely sure we have a consensus or decision on using the second search box. The alternative to the second search box is tweaking monobook.css to make the existing, left search box (subtly) more noticeable. Right now, with my monobook.css, I have:
Any thought on this alternative to the second search box? -- Aude ( talk | contribs) 22:11, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
My personal bias is to put in all the bells and whistles. But so far there hasn't been a design which integrates the two features in a way that both sides here likes. But that's because the code is extremely difficult to work with (while much of it is buried in the css), with attempts getting reverted rather than refined. If there is a volunteer who is fluent in Wikipedia/html/css page markup, we could sure use your help to create a header design with both the portal matrix and the search box in it. -- Go for it! 18:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
This topic is now scattered across 3 sections, so i'll repeat: I'd advocate something more minimal, like this User:Quiddity/monobook.css. If we can make it MainPage only, that would be perfect. (I also agree with Kmf164 that google's search is vastly more efficient.) -- Quiddity 22:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I am very strongly Against having a second search box. Not because it is redundant, but because it has negative reinforcement for the actual search box's location. The only reason 2 search boxes works on amazon, is they ALWAYS have 2: 1 at top 1 at bottom (never both visible at once). We're proposing only having a 2nd box at the top on only the main page. That seems highly counter-intuitive. -- Quiddity 03:57, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
David - What was the formatting problem with IE? I tried it in IE and it was just fine. -- Aude ( talk | contribs) 22:16, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I also have the problem, but lower down. Also there seems to be some padding issues between the end of POTD and the reference section. I've taken a screenshot and put in some red markings to show you (like how they draw stuff around football players on TV). You can find the file here.-- HereToHelp ( talk • contribs) 02:48, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I've noticed the disagreement on the browsebar location. I think we can find a way to keep it above the header, yet accommodate non-graphical browsers. There has to be a hack for that. However, if we end up putting the portal links in the header, then it makes sense (visually) to leave the browsebar centered, below the header. -- Aude ( talk | contribs) 22:16, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Not surprisingly, David Levy/HeretoHelp is pushing Draft H. I've seen no attempt on their part to implement the consensus from the last round. They stated expressly that they would implement the most popular elements from the various drafts, but they've gone against their word. It's obvious that Draft H did not represent consensus, yet that's what they have been endeavoring to rebuild on the project page. If you don't believe me, just look at their edits. I'm beginning to strongly believe that the voters should be allowed to decide directly, as "consensus building" as touted by David Levy/HereToHelp amounts to a strong-armed pair of editors vigorously pushing their own agenda. When it comes down to it their main MO is reversion tactics paired with discussion rhetoric. The phrase "It's the Consensus" in their postings has become the equivalent of the phrase "It's God's Will", which, being totally unverifiable has been used throughout history to promote every form of lunacy under the sun. I think Draft H sucks, and that it represents the least common denominator rather than the best we can produce. I believe we could come up with a second Main Page candidate that blows it away. -- Go for it! 23:33, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
This page appears to indicate that the 2D version is a legitimate variant of the officially selected logo. Did I misinterpret an unofficial summary? — David Levy 02:48, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The featured picture certainly needs to go below the other content as it falsely gives the impression that it is the most appropriate and relevant part of the front page, as if this site is about pictures above all. violet/riga (t) 08:44, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
If you are restoring or reverting part of the page to an earlier version, please be careful to review the changes made after the version you are returning to. Otherwise you will end up throwing out other changes along with the ones that you are removing. I've now added back one change that was lost, and there may be others as well. Carcharoth 10:53, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The Wikipedia:Main_Page_alternates link is a good idea, but I agree with David Levy that that project is not yet far enough along to be linked from the Main Page. It is essential, as part of a "Usability" project to have links to things like that, but a clear distinction needs to be drawn between different styles (colours, boxes) and different layout (for PDAs, text browsers, blind users etc). Also, too many of the alternate pages have radically different links. People are introduced to Wikipedia in a completely different way with some of these pages - and end up on different pages. A clear lack of a unified approach. This would need to be much more carefully thought through before being implemented.
The other thought is whether you would need to protect all these pages from editing? If a lot of people are using a version that suffers from vandalism, that could be a disaster. I know the templates are protected, but the bits around it could still be vandalised. Would you protect all the versions? Would you accept new versions periodically. It sounds like a good idea, but a bit too late at this stage. I would suggest after this Main Page redesign is over, take the final version and make clear, simple changes (colour, text, number features, etc). Only A FEW CHANGES per version, and start a range of alternates that are based on the final redesign. Any other approach will make these alternates feel TOO different and this will be confusing. Carcharoth 11:23, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
1. See the above section for an explanation of why the "main page alternates link" should not be included at this juncture.
2. As previously noted, we mustn't introduce a design that makes Wikipedia less accessible for some of its readers. Demanding that visually-impaired people (among others) switch to a different page or tolerate confusing output is entirely unreasonable. As such, I've returned the browsebar to its sub-header position.
3. The gold coloring has consistently proven unpopular. This was true when I first added it to a draft, and the anti-gold sentiment remained prevalent throughout the straw poll. — David Levy 15:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't like the color. i think it could be better. so could the boxes. Kevin Baas talk 18:09, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Can editors please provide accurate edit summaries. It is very difficult to follow the changes if the summary only mentions one of the changes made. Either mention all the changes, or make the changes in incremental steps with separate edit summaries for each step. At the very least, put "and other minor changes". Otherwise changes can easily be missed. Carcharoth 17:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I've just spotted an example of poorly thought out and unco-ordinated editing. The order of the "other languages" and "sister projects" area was switched round, which is fair enough as several people expressed support for that. The trouble was that someone followed this up by stripping out "Wikipedia" from the headings, so now instead of "Wikipedia in other languages", you get the header "Other languages" immediately following the sister projects section. This means that it is no longer clear to the casual reader whether this "other languages" bit is referring to the sister projects, or just to Wikipedia. The links are to other language versions of Wikipedia, so I've restored "Wikipedia" to the header of the "other languages" section. There is often a reason for the way something is worded. It sometimes pays to stop and think before changing something. Carcharoth 17:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The vote in the last round was not decisive either way. Let's rationally consider the pros and cons of both options, taking into consideration all the feedback we had in the last "voting" round.
No offense, but perhaps you should describe what it is you're trying to accomplish. Did you intend to move the searchbox to underneath the header? It really breaks up the layout, and moves the actual content rather far down. -- Ec5618 00:43, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Maybe the issue of the extra search bar is far from being decided, but it seems in the above discussion that it would be acceptable to somehow highlight the one on the left and not have a second one? this seems like a good idea.. as it is, the user sees two search boxes and is faced with the somewhat confusing options of "Find", "Go", or "Search".. which do i choose? are they different? the difference between "Go" and "Search" is confusing enough as it is.. thankfully "Go" is in bold so i know which one's 'right'. 131.111.8.104 12:41, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
For some reason, everything below the header seems to be center (rather than aligned left). Can someone fix this please?-- HereToHelp ( talk • contribs) 02:58, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Hey, I like this new design! :-) (The one with the search bar and browse bar combined and placed below the header containing the taglines and the portal links). Only one minor point: the colour of the bit below the header seems to fade somewhat, but that is just a personal stylistic thing. Also, has anyone checked this header at different screen resolutions to see what happens? Carcharoth 09:08, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Only two very minor comments about stuff I'm not quite sure how to implement, so if someone else could do the editing that would be great:
1) Add borders to either side of the combined browse bar/search box bit below the header. This is the "fade-out" things I was referring to above. I realised it isn't a colour issue, but is a borders issue.
2) In the "Wikipedia languages" section would it be best for the "over x articles" bits to be aligned left as on the current main page?
Hope someone can try out these suggestions. Carcharoth 11:27, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Hey, I got an idea (I just can't program): Have the search box with the button on the same line aligned right above the Portals in the header, and it's little ine above it as the top thing on the page. Have the about stuff in italics aligned left, also above the header. Keep the Portals in the header, and cut out that blue stuff. You can reverse the alignings if you like.-- HereToHelp ( talk • contribs) 12:07, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Categories – Portals – Index – How to edit – Questions – Help |
|
Welcome to Wikipedia Informationthe free encyclopedia that
anyone can edit |
Odd. It's fine in Safari but not level in Firefox. Here's a sreenshot of both. If we can get this owrked out I really like it. Still, I like an area of whitespace similar to this draft over the gray. HereToHelp ( talk • contribs)
File:Main Page redesign header rendering issue safari and firefox .png
I've attempted to fix this problem, with the search box and button wrapping onto another line. Is your problem fixed? -- Aude ( talk | contribs) 22:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
This actually looks very nice... I really like the latest version of the main page. Keep up the good work everyone! - JustinWick 23:12, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
From one problem to the next...here's what I have now.-- HereToHelp ( talk • contribs) 00:06, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
File:Image-Main Page redesign header rendering issue safari and firefox 2.png.png
It helped. It's not cut off anymore but it is right next to the edge. What about another </div>?-- HereToHelp ( talk • contribs) 02:38, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
File:Main Page redesign header rendering issue safari and firefox 3.png
Welcome to Wikipedia Informationthe free encyclopedia that
anyone can edit |
|
Until this page gets refactored, i'll repeat my comments from a section above:
starting Feb 19th
The navigation section has:
Perhaps this has been discussed before, but I find it very strange and unequal. It suggests that mathematics, history and geography are not regarded as science. TeunSpaans 17:58, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
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Image:Main Page Draft 1600x1200 A.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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Image:Main Page Draft 1600x1200 A.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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