Archives for WT:TOL | ||
---|---|---|
1 | 2002-07 – 2003-12 | Article names |
2 | 2003-11 – 2004-02 | Taxoboxes |
3 | 2004-02 | Taxoboxes |
4 | 2004-02 – 2004-08 | Bold taxa; taxonomy |
5 | 2004-03 – 2004-04 | Taxonomy; photos; range maps |
6 | 2005-04 – 2004-06 | Capitalization; authorities; mammals |
7 | 2004-06 – 2004-08 | Creationism; parens; common names |
8 | 2004-05 – 2004-08 | Templates; †extinct; common names |
9 | 2004-05 – 2004-08 | Categories; taxoboxes |
10 | 2004-08 – 2004-12 | Categories; authorities; domains; Wikispecies; ranks; G. species; capitalization; Common Names |
11 | 2004-11 – 2005-05 | Capitalization; common names; categories; L.; authorities; algae; cultivars |
12 | 2005-03 – 2005-05 | Ranks; common names |
13 | 2005-05 – 2005-06 | Hybrids; taxobox format; cultivars |
14 | 2005-06 – 2005-07 | Categories; food plants; identification; Capitalization |
15 | 2005-07 – 2005-09 | Synonyms; types; authorities; status; identification |
16 | 2005-09 – 2005-12 | Paleontological ranges; Rosopsida; Taxobox redesign; identification |
17 | 2005-12 – 2006-04 | Taxobox redesign; identification; APG; common names; capitalization |
18 | 2006-04 – 2006-10 | Categorization; include in references; snakes; range maps; seasonality graph; common names; bioregions; brya; |
19 | 2006-10 – 2007-03 | various |
20 | 2007-03 – 2007-06 | various |
21 | 2007-06 (Next 64 Kb) | various |
22 | (Next 64 Kb) | various |
23 | (Next 64 Kb) | various |
24 | (Next 64 Kb) | various |
I've been looking through the mammal pages and noticed a number of inconsistencies. For instance, the Red Panda is listed as both a member of Procyonidae and Ursidae. The hamsters are listed as both a separate family (Cricetidae) at Rodentia, and as a subfamily of Muridae ( Cricetinae). How are such issues to be dealt with? Is there any standard reference on which wikipedia's taxonomic schemes are based? john 19:10, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Ok, I can't remember wher the conversation was, but I was arguing against the disambiguation and for 'Binomial nomenclature' at one point, but my discussion partner convinced me that 'Binomial name' was a better. However, I don't believe I ever brought that discussion back to here. The argument that swayed me was that 'binomial nomenclature' refers not just to the name, but to the whole system of naming, while the entry in the taxobox is just the name. Thoughts? I see that mav prefers the disambiguation... - UtherSRG 03:15, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
1 : a mathematical expression consisting of two terms connected by a plus sign or minus sign 2 : a biological species name consisting of two terms
In case anyone's interesting, I've decided to expand my Wikibooks:Dichotomous Key to be interlinked with a comprehensive Wikibooks:Field Guide for all life forms. It's kind of the Wikibook Tree of Life. Tuf-Kat 10:10, Mar 20, 2004 (UTC)
is a article on the Village pump about how we may enable better cooperation between the different wikipedias. The subject's talk space is preferably on the meta wikipedia as this is a discussion for all wikipedia's.
To my delight, it has resulted in the implementation of part of the idea on the de: wikipedia. To my disappointment, I have not seen any response from the en: wikipedia. The discussion is ongoing and the input from en:wikipedia is important. So please have a look, have a thought and let us cooperate.
Thanks, GerardM 11:01, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)
If there was a bot that would change all occurrences of "regnum:" into "Kingdom: or ({{msg:regnum}}" would that be OK ? GerardM 20:42, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I editted the Wikipedia:WikiProject_Tree_of_Life#Images_and_maps section, adding starting guidelines for image sizes: 200px for the main image. I think at the very least, that's as small as it should be made. Significantly larger and the taxobox encroaches on the article text. 250px is probably fine if needed. Also, it's not needed to upload both a 750px and a 250px image now that we have the auto-resizing: [[image:myimage.750px.jpg|200px|My Image]] - UtherSRG 14:31, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
GerardM has gone ahead and modified the taxobox for Ruffe to use his new TaxoMsgs. While I like the concept, I dislike the implementation. Perhaps I'm being EN-wiki-centric, but I'd much prefer the msg names to be in English. I tried making {{msg:kingdom}} as a redirect, but unfortunately msgs don't like redirects. - UtherSRG 05:04, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
GerardM has reverted Uther's edit, and I have just dereverted it. There's a bit of history on this - read Talk:Ruffe for information. seglea 06:16, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Well, you sort of did, because I had partially accepted his changes (accepted the {{msgs}} but corrected his mistakes. Just about all the taxoarticles I've editted today I've done with the {{msgs}}. [1] I think it's handy. If we ever decide (again!) to change how that portion of the taxobox is going to look, all we have to do is change the message text instead of editting each taxobox. I still would prefer the message names to be in English, though, or for MediaWiki to correctly utilize redirected messages. - UtherSRG 20:11, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
It might be best to wait for the 1.3 version of MediaWiki to be released before making these changes to the taxoboxes, as Template parameters will be enabled then. See the example on the TestWikipedia. Angela . 01:48, Apr 20, 2004 (UTC)
One big thing with messages is that it makes life easy for a bot. When a "<nomsg>Genus</nomsg> Oldname" is to be replace with "<nomsg>Genus</nomsg> Newname", it will be possible to replace all occurrences in all wikipedias when new taxonomic science mandates the change. This is correct as science is science (taxonomy) wherever you live. When taxoboxes are uniform in all languages which they are not at present, it will be possible to do things with changes (and even inclusions) of higher taxons.
When the use of messages is used from now on as a standard, the presentation in all wikipedia's will remain the same. But all the side benefits are there for everyone to use. My point is, when we start using the messages from now on, we will benefit. 1.3 is simply running a bot one time to change to a new format. But PLEASE let us decide on one standard and not use English only because _this_ is the English language, we are _all_ contributing to wikipedia and there are more than 500.000 articles. GerardM 19:57, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
What's the thinking behind re-reformatting images like Nicobar Pigeon and Green Imperial Pigeon? The newest version is, IMHO, unnecessarily small, lacks the thumb icon, so it's not obvious that there is a larger image, even though it can be accessed by clicking on the image, and has lost the caption; if the caption is giving more than just a name, shouldn't it be on view, and not just floating? I'm not convinced that this is a step forward. Jim
I looked at the Tree of life talk page, and the decision to reduce the standard picture size down from 250px doesn't seem to be in there, although you suggest that 200-250 px is acceptable. On the project page, the recommendation seems to be yours. I can live without the mag glass, but my view is that the images should go back to the previous 250, and, if we are not using the mag, to revert to the media: format to make it clear that there is a larger image.
However, I don't want to start an edit war just yet, so I want to consult Bigiron and Tannin as the other main pic contributors. Jim
I have a very clear and firm view on this matter, gentlemen. Unfortunately, I don't agree with any of you!
Image quality is paramount. Anything that produces a fuzzed-up, greyed-out image is not to be considered. In short, there is only one acceptable way to do a taxobox illustration, and that is to use a thumbnail image that has been appropriately cropped and resized by a human being.
This is the only way to get decent picture quality - and when you only have 200 or 250 pixels to work with, picture quality is everything.
Now to minor matters. The best size, in my view, is usually around 225 or 230 pixels. But this should never be made into an absolute number. It depends on the size and resolution of the source image (not all images can be shrunk to an arbitary number without noticable quality degredation), on the nature of the image (different angles of different creatures under different lighting conditions all produce different imperatives from the point of view of sizing - for example, a large creature with a small feature of particular interest such as the head may be best sized up towards the top of the 200 - 250px range, or a tall, narrow shot of an upright bird may be best kept down towards 200px to avoid either cutting its tail off or having the taxobox scroll off the screen), and on the text in the taxobox (some boxes are wide even before the image is added because the creature has a very long name, so it makes sense here to use a wider than average image size).
I don't like the grey border, but that is just a matter of personal taste. I particularly dislike the way that the new image code breaks page layouts on my preffered browser (Opera 6.06). Again though, that is a matter for the developers to decide. It seems that they have exercised their right to implement code that breaks some browsers. That's OK. In turn, some users (such as me) exercise our right to avoid using the new, broken code in favour of the old code that, although it does not offer the nice feature of clicking directly on the image to see a larger version, at least does not break browsers and actually produces the only thing that really matters - image quality. Tannin 08:17, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Compare:
File:NP225.jpg |
Speaks for itself, doesn't it.
PS: has anybody noticed that I no longer provide full-size images to the 'pedia? This is no accident. By only providing thumbnails, I ensure that they don't get buggerised about and turned into grey fuz the way that the left and centre images above are.) Tannin 08:32, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
File:IP225.jpg |
Examine the right-most thumbnail above. Once again, you can only get decent image quality by combining the two most important bits of photographic equipment ever invented - the human eye and a human brain. Tannin
It seems I'm between Tony and Adrian on this. Image quality is important to me, but I think that quality is best found in the large image. I prefer using the large image auto-resized to eliminate a line in the taxobox for the additional link needed for a seperate image. I dislike the gray border and mag-icon; they take up space in the taxobox (I don't mind them outside the box). So I suppose my main concern then is minimizing the taxobox footprint while maintaining a reasonable level of quality information (text and image) in the box. finer quality data is outside of the box - the text of the main article, and the larger image. - UtherSRG 12:11, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
My opinion on this is closest to Tannin's. I prefer 250px wide images and I don't like the automatically-resized images. However, if someone is going to use them, there should be some kind of clear indication that this is not the original image size. In general, if there are some new rules to be imposed on the use of images in taxoboxes, then I think that the discussion belongs with the respective projects and shouldn't be some unilateral decision. That seems to run contrary to the Wikipedia concept. Big Iron 10:30 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Lupo has recently added some range maps to articles, which I then moved into the taxobox. He didn't like it there, and said there wasn't concensus here. I note that a few weeks ago I updated the Project page to indicate that range maps go into the taxobox. Do we need this discussed again? - UtherSRG 16:38, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
We're at 44k for the talk. I think it's time to evaluate the discussions here, see what conclussions have been reached, update the Project page, and archive some of the discussions. Since I seem to be the center of controversy these days, I'll leave it to someone more neutral to deal with, unless there's concensus that I can go ahead and do it. *grins* - UtherSRG 16:38, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Archives for WT:TOL | ||
---|---|---|
1 | 2002-07 – 2003-12 | Article names |
2 | 2003-11 – 2004-02 | Taxoboxes |
3 | 2004-02 | Taxoboxes |
4 | 2004-02 – 2004-08 | Bold taxa; taxonomy |
5 | 2004-03 – 2004-04 | Taxonomy; photos; range maps |
6 | 2005-04 – 2004-06 | Capitalization; authorities; mammals |
7 | 2004-06 – 2004-08 | Creationism; parens; common names |
8 | 2004-05 – 2004-08 | Templates; †extinct; common names |
9 | 2004-05 – 2004-08 | Categories; taxoboxes |
10 | 2004-08 – 2004-12 | Categories; authorities; domains; Wikispecies; ranks; G. species; capitalization; Common Names |
11 | 2004-11 – 2005-05 | Capitalization; common names; categories; L.; authorities; algae; cultivars |
12 | 2005-03 – 2005-05 | Ranks; common names |
13 | 2005-05 – 2005-06 | Hybrids; taxobox format; cultivars |
14 | 2005-06 – 2005-07 | Categories; food plants; identification; Capitalization |
15 | 2005-07 – 2005-09 | Synonyms; types; authorities; status; identification |
16 | 2005-09 – 2005-12 | Paleontological ranges; Rosopsida; Taxobox redesign; identification |
17 | 2005-12 – 2006-04 | Taxobox redesign; identification; APG; common names; capitalization |
18 | 2006-04 – 2006-10 | Categorization; include in references; snakes; range maps; seasonality graph; common names; bioregions; brya; |
19 | 2006-10 – 2007-03 | various |
20 | 2007-03 – 2007-06 | various |
21 | 2007-06 (Next 64 Kb) | various |
22 | (Next 64 Kb) | various |
23 | (Next 64 Kb) | various |
24 | (Next 64 Kb) | various |
I've been looking through the mammal pages and noticed a number of inconsistencies. For instance, the Red Panda is listed as both a member of Procyonidae and Ursidae. The hamsters are listed as both a separate family (Cricetidae) at Rodentia, and as a subfamily of Muridae ( Cricetinae). How are such issues to be dealt with? Is there any standard reference on which wikipedia's taxonomic schemes are based? john 19:10, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Ok, I can't remember wher the conversation was, but I was arguing against the disambiguation and for 'Binomial nomenclature' at one point, but my discussion partner convinced me that 'Binomial name' was a better. However, I don't believe I ever brought that discussion back to here. The argument that swayed me was that 'binomial nomenclature' refers not just to the name, but to the whole system of naming, while the entry in the taxobox is just the name. Thoughts? I see that mav prefers the disambiguation... - UtherSRG 03:15, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
1 : a mathematical expression consisting of two terms connected by a plus sign or minus sign 2 : a biological species name consisting of two terms
In case anyone's interesting, I've decided to expand my Wikibooks:Dichotomous Key to be interlinked with a comprehensive Wikibooks:Field Guide for all life forms. It's kind of the Wikibook Tree of Life. Tuf-Kat 10:10, Mar 20, 2004 (UTC)
is a article on the Village pump about how we may enable better cooperation between the different wikipedias. The subject's talk space is preferably on the meta wikipedia as this is a discussion for all wikipedia's.
To my delight, it has resulted in the implementation of part of the idea on the de: wikipedia. To my disappointment, I have not seen any response from the en: wikipedia. The discussion is ongoing and the input from en:wikipedia is important. So please have a look, have a thought and let us cooperate.
Thanks, GerardM 11:01, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)
If there was a bot that would change all occurrences of "regnum:" into "Kingdom: or ({{msg:regnum}}" would that be OK ? GerardM 20:42, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I editted the Wikipedia:WikiProject_Tree_of_Life#Images_and_maps section, adding starting guidelines for image sizes: 200px for the main image. I think at the very least, that's as small as it should be made. Significantly larger and the taxobox encroaches on the article text. 250px is probably fine if needed. Also, it's not needed to upload both a 750px and a 250px image now that we have the auto-resizing: [[image:myimage.750px.jpg|200px|My Image]] - UtherSRG 14:31, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
GerardM has gone ahead and modified the taxobox for Ruffe to use his new TaxoMsgs. While I like the concept, I dislike the implementation. Perhaps I'm being EN-wiki-centric, but I'd much prefer the msg names to be in English. I tried making {{msg:kingdom}} as a redirect, but unfortunately msgs don't like redirects. - UtherSRG 05:04, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
GerardM has reverted Uther's edit, and I have just dereverted it. There's a bit of history on this - read Talk:Ruffe for information. seglea 06:16, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Well, you sort of did, because I had partially accepted his changes (accepted the {{msgs}} but corrected his mistakes. Just about all the taxoarticles I've editted today I've done with the {{msgs}}. [1] I think it's handy. If we ever decide (again!) to change how that portion of the taxobox is going to look, all we have to do is change the message text instead of editting each taxobox. I still would prefer the message names to be in English, though, or for MediaWiki to correctly utilize redirected messages. - UtherSRG 20:11, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
It might be best to wait for the 1.3 version of MediaWiki to be released before making these changes to the taxoboxes, as Template parameters will be enabled then. See the example on the TestWikipedia. Angela . 01:48, Apr 20, 2004 (UTC)
One big thing with messages is that it makes life easy for a bot. When a "<nomsg>Genus</nomsg> Oldname" is to be replace with "<nomsg>Genus</nomsg> Newname", it will be possible to replace all occurrences in all wikipedias when new taxonomic science mandates the change. This is correct as science is science (taxonomy) wherever you live. When taxoboxes are uniform in all languages which they are not at present, it will be possible to do things with changes (and even inclusions) of higher taxons.
When the use of messages is used from now on as a standard, the presentation in all wikipedia's will remain the same. But all the side benefits are there for everyone to use. My point is, when we start using the messages from now on, we will benefit. 1.3 is simply running a bot one time to change to a new format. But PLEASE let us decide on one standard and not use English only because _this_ is the English language, we are _all_ contributing to wikipedia and there are more than 500.000 articles. GerardM 19:57, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
What's the thinking behind re-reformatting images like Nicobar Pigeon and Green Imperial Pigeon? The newest version is, IMHO, unnecessarily small, lacks the thumb icon, so it's not obvious that there is a larger image, even though it can be accessed by clicking on the image, and has lost the caption; if the caption is giving more than just a name, shouldn't it be on view, and not just floating? I'm not convinced that this is a step forward. Jim
I looked at the Tree of life talk page, and the decision to reduce the standard picture size down from 250px doesn't seem to be in there, although you suggest that 200-250 px is acceptable. On the project page, the recommendation seems to be yours. I can live without the mag glass, but my view is that the images should go back to the previous 250, and, if we are not using the mag, to revert to the media: format to make it clear that there is a larger image.
However, I don't want to start an edit war just yet, so I want to consult Bigiron and Tannin as the other main pic contributors. Jim
I have a very clear and firm view on this matter, gentlemen. Unfortunately, I don't agree with any of you!
Image quality is paramount. Anything that produces a fuzzed-up, greyed-out image is not to be considered. In short, there is only one acceptable way to do a taxobox illustration, and that is to use a thumbnail image that has been appropriately cropped and resized by a human being.
This is the only way to get decent picture quality - and when you only have 200 or 250 pixels to work with, picture quality is everything.
Now to minor matters. The best size, in my view, is usually around 225 or 230 pixels. But this should never be made into an absolute number. It depends on the size and resolution of the source image (not all images can be shrunk to an arbitary number without noticable quality degredation), on the nature of the image (different angles of different creatures under different lighting conditions all produce different imperatives from the point of view of sizing - for example, a large creature with a small feature of particular interest such as the head may be best sized up towards the top of the 200 - 250px range, or a tall, narrow shot of an upright bird may be best kept down towards 200px to avoid either cutting its tail off or having the taxobox scroll off the screen), and on the text in the taxobox (some boxes are wide even before the image is added because the creature has a very long name, so it makes sense here to use a wider than average image size).
I don't like the grey border, but that is just a matter of personal taste. I particularly dislike the way that the new image code breaks page layouts on my preffered browser (Opera 6.06). Again though, that is a matter for the developers to decide. It seems that they have exercised their right to implement code that breaks some browsers. That's OK. In turn, some users (such as me) exercise our right to avoid using the new, broken code in favour of the old code that, although it does not offer the nice feature of clicking directly on the image to see a larger version, at least does not break browsers and actually produces the only thing that really matters - image quality. Tannin 08:17, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Compare:
File:NP225.jpg |
Speaks for itself, doesn't it.
PS: has anybody noticed that I no longer provide full-size images to the 'pedia? This is no accident. By only providing thumbnails, I ensure that they don't get buggerised about and turned into grey fuz the way that the left and centre images above are.) Tannin 08:32, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
File:IP225.jpg |
Examine the right-most thumbnail above. Once again, you can only get decent image quality by combining the two most important bits of photographic equipment ever invented - the human eye and a human brain. Tannin
It seems I'm between Tony and Adrian on this. Image quality is important to me, but I think that quality is best found in the large image. I prefer using the large image auto-resized to eliminate a line in the taxobox for the additional link needed for a seperate image. I dislike the gray border and mag-icon; they take up space in the taxobox (I don't mind them outside the box). So I suppose my main concern then is minimizing the taxobox footprint while maintaining a reasonable level of quality information (text and image) in the box. finer quality data is outside of the box - the text of the main article, and the larger image. - UtherSRG 12:11, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
My opinion on this is closest to Tannin's. I prefer 250px wide images and I don't like the automatically-resized images. However, if someone is going to use them, there should be some kind of clear indication that this is not the original image size. In general, if there are some new rules to be imposed on the use of images in taxoboxes, then I think that the discussion belongs with the respective projects and shouldn't be some unilateral decision. That seems to run contrary to the Wikipedia concept. Big Iron 10:30 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Lupo has recently added some range maps to articles, which I then moved into the taxobox. He didn't like it there, and said there wasn't concensus here. I note that a few weeks ago I updated the Project page to indicate that range maps go into the taxobox. Do we need this discussed again? - UtherSRG 16:38, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
We're at 44k for the talk. I think it's time to evaluate the discussions here, see what conclussions have been reached, update the Project page, and archive some of the discussions. Since I seem to be the center of controversy these days, I'll leave it to someone more neutral to deal with, unless there's concensus that I can go ahead and do it. *grins* - UtherSRG 16:38, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)