Archives for WT:TOL | ||
---|---|---|
1 | 2002-07 – 2003-12 | Article names |
2 | 2003-11 – 2004-02 | Taxoboxes |
3 | 2004-02 | Taxoboxes |
4 | 2004-02 – 2004-08 | Bold taxa; taxonomy |
5 | 2004-03 – 2004-04 | Taxonomy; photos; range maps |
6 | 2005-04 – 2004-06 | Capitalization; authorities; mammals |
7 | 2004-06 – 2004-08 | Creationism; parens; common names |
8 | 2004-05 – 2004-08 | Templates; †extinct; common names |
9 | 2004-05 – 2004-08 | Categories; taxoboxes |
10 | 2004-08 – 2004-12 | Categories; authorities; domains; Wikispecies; ranks; G. species; capitalization; Common Names |
11 | 2004-11 – 2005-05 | Capitalization; common names; categories; L.; authorities; algae; cultivars |
12 | 2005-03 – 2005-05 | Ranks; common names |
13 | 2005-05 – 2005-06 | Hybrids; taxobox format; cultivars |
14 | 2005-06 – 2005-07 | Categories; food plants; identification; Capitalization |
15 | 2005-07 – 2005-09 | Synonyms; types; authorities; status; identification |
16 | 2005-09 – 2005-12 | Paleontological ranges; Rosopsida; Taxobox redesign; identification |
17 | 2005-12 – 2006-04 | Taxobox redesign; identification; APG; common names; capitalization |
18 | 2006-04 – 2006-10 | Categorization; include in references; snakes; range maps; seasonality graph; common names; bioregions; brya; |
19 | 2006-10 – 2007-03 | various |
20 | 2007-03 – 2007-06 | various |
21 | 2007-06 (Next 64 Kb) | various |
22 | (Next 64 Kb) | various |
23 | (Next 64 Kb) | various |
24 | (Next 64 Kb) | various |
I have a question regarding standard templates. I noticed that there has been some discussion on wether to split articles on animals into scientific and more popular ones. I personally think that the information should be in one place and not spread over (or duplicated in) more articles. Since I would like to create some new animal articles, my proposal would be to start with a general introduction / summary and then a more in depth scientific part. The structure I would like to use is:
Scientific name:
Scientific synonyms:
Common name:
Common synonyms:
General introduction: -->here come a summary / popular description
Description:
Habitat:
Diet:
Behaviour:
Reproduction:
Ecology:
Anatomy:
Physiology:
Taxonomy:
Care and maintenance in captivity:
References:
Now, before someone starts to restructure my work, I would like to know if there are any thoughts/comments on my proposal.
I just added a quick paragraph on
Trilliaceae. How does one add the "template stuff" to a page so that it fits in with the TOL framework?
Susan
Would it be a good idea to add something like "status" to the standard table? I'm envisioning this saying something like:
This way people could tell at a glance whether the animal/plant/etc. being discussed is an ancient one, a current but rare one, a common one, etc.
Another possibility would be to have a field "estimated population":
But this may be problematic because I'm not sure even remotely good estimates are available for many species. -- Delirium 21:33, Nov 2, 2003 (UTC)
I'm a newcomer here but have been doing some work on a few species of mammals and birds I know about. I didn't find my way to the standard template until after I had started (I know, I know...) but I do have my doubts about it.
1. the page on the ToL project page badly needs re-writing to reflect current realities - the project seems to have evolved since the page was put together. Who has the authority to do that?
2. I agree that we certainly don't want two types of pages, popular and scientific. We should get the two sorts of information onto a single page, though we need to flag, at least implicitly, the level we're talking at - usually pretty clear from style and content
3. Partly because of (2), the rigid use of a template should be avoided. Particularly with taxa where there's a dearth of scientific knowledge, it's going to lead to unattractive articles with sections like
Diet: little known
etc etc. Have a look at one I've just done on the Woolly Flying Squirrel - as it stands, it's a quick summary of what we know that you can read in seconds - if we templated it, it would stretch over 2 screens and look a mess. (And it's likely to stand like that for some time unless we can track down P. Zahler and get him/her to fill in the details.) On the other hand, a template is always a useful checklist, and where we know more should probably normally be used, if only to flag up gaps in the article that others with an interest should be able to fill.
seglea at 0522utc on 031104
Who has the authority to do that?
So, the article headers seem to have little support, and are rarely if ever still used. Can we take them out, so that we can focus on organization and the taxoboxes, which are used everywhere? It would be much more helpful to make this page a description of the standard wikipedia treatment of taxa.
There are several articles which are just lists of genera in a family (e.g. List of Araliaceae genera). It seems to me we should merge those with the family in each case. Any objections, or other thoughts? WormRunner 04:59, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)
It doesn't like there has been any discussion about expanding the taxobox (BTW, see Wikipedia:Taxobox) to include other information besides classification. I think it would be a Good Thing to include stuff like:
Eastern Yellow Robin | ||||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Status: secure | ||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||
Binomial name | ||||||||||||||
Eopsaltria australis |
I agree with Seglea + world + dog that it is a bad idea to add more info to the taxoboxes. But I think that the suggestion made above about the creature's status is an excellent one. This is, after all, the single most important bit of information there is about the creature - i.e., does it even exist anymore?
Some time ago, I spent quite a few hours trying to work up a taxobox form that would (a) contain the animal's conservation status in an easily-read, at-a-glance way, and (b) not clutter up the page or take too much space. I never did get one that I was 100% happy with, but my drafts are still here on the 'pedia somewhere, probably in a subpage of my user space. Tannin 11:03, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Or, as I wrote on my scratchpad: I think it would be a vast improvement to have the IUCN conservaton categories as part of the taxoboxes - (a) because that is very important information, (b) because, seeing as we are using so much screen real estate for the taxoboxes already, we might as well make them work a bit harder for their living, ad (c) becasuse it's one of the few items of information that is always present for any animal: i.e., all animals have a conservation category, even if it is just "data deficient". Tannin 11:15, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Well, it looks like the consensus is to not drastically expand the taxobox, but there is interest in the range map and the conservation status. Maybe we should look at this bottom up rather than top down. Are there any other pieces of info that might be looked on favorably? Should the species box be fundamentally different from the higher categories? Any changes in standard format people would like to see? I would like to see less bold type and more consistent inclusion of the author of the taxon. WormRunner 07:20, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I think that it would be neat to add a few well-chosen items to the bottom of taxoboxes (such as Red Book status, range, habitat type). It would also be neat to have maps showing the range. But all those changes will have to be decided upon by consensus. -- mav 08:51, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
As you say, Mav, adding more information to the bottom would be neat. I'll ponder which information in another post. But first, I think we need to consider another factor: this is that the longer the taxobox grows, the more difficult it makes the layout of the page as a whole. In particular, a long taxobox makes it all-but impossible to add a picture. Sure, you can pot a picture in the box itself, but you often need two or three pictures to do justice to a subject. Many bird species have very different male, female, and juvenile plumages, for example. Sometimes you might want a nest, or maybe even some representative habitat. It's the same with plants. Often the best arrangement is to have (for example) a mature tree in the taxobox, a close-up of the leaf and blossom, and finally the fruit. If you have a long taxobox, you can't fit the 2nd and 3rd pictures into the text as there is not enough horozontal space for them (unless the article is a good deal longer than average).
So, yes, I'm in favour of making the taxoboxes as informative as possible, but also in favour of making them as small as possible. Obviously, these goals are mutually incompatible. Somewhere in the middle is the ideal compromise. But exactly where? We need to ponder this carefully, I think, and try out as many ideas as we can to find the best one. Tannin 09:05, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I'd say that's the important point, that stuff in the taxobox be generally applicable, and also something that tends to vary within the group. Diet isn't likely to be exceptionally simple or different for most species of termites, say, and simply doesn't apply to most plants. Status, however, could be genuinely useful for extinct groups if it is extended to a temporal range. It's worth knowing that Tyrannosaurus is from the Late Cretaceous and Apatosaurus from the Late Jurassic, and that sort of information should apply to nearly everything. -- Josh
I just pick up Wormrunner's side point of adding the author of the taxon. I did include that one with the latest taxoboxes I did in case I could find the info, however it didn't look much good for those cases the author isn't abbreviated - the "L." behind is no problem, but if it is two names a linebreak is necessary, and also I'd prefer it be non-bolded as it is less important than the taxonomic name except for the biologists. BTW: Binomial nomenclature does not mention that the author is often listed after the taxonomic names, can anyone add it who knows more about that scheme than me. Also interesting would be the rules when and how the author is abbreviated - that Linne gets a L. is rather easy to grasp, but he is not the only one I saw abbreviated. andy 09:27, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
(Copied from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Birds): It seems that the 'th' tag automatically centers and bolds. As I'm editting, I'm removing the align="center" and all bolding from 'th' tagged lines. This has no effect on the display, but makes the html more user readable. I'm also making sure there's a line for an image, taged with 'td align="center"' and includes only a comment to but the image there. - UtherSRG 20:32, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)
(Copied from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Birds): Bah! I seriously dislike the wiki table markup. It is not readable in the slightest. The HTML tags, although sometimes cryptic, at least have some bearing on what they affect. When I see a 'table' tag, I know I'm dealing with a table, 'tr' a row in that table, 'th' a heading in the table, 'td' a piece of data in the table. Bah on wiki tables! - UtherSRG 16:01, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I have just added my first cetacea range map - at Sperm Whale. I would very much appreciate advice on the map itself, and its positioning on the article page. Graphic design is not my forte! Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 20:00, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I have uploaded several pictures you people might be interested in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plants_and_animals_of_Belize Most are unidentified and any help along those lines would be appreciated I took all of them in Belize where I reside and will take request for anything that is native to Belize and will try to fill request in a timely manner. Belizian 03:24, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC) Added more pics Belizian
I was walking around
Kenilworth Castle and spotted
this tree, which I didn't recognise but thought perhaps rather uncommon (at least in the
United Kingdom); is it (a) identifiable and (b) worthwhile for the Wikipedia? (The images on that site are licensed as public domain.)
James F.
(talk) 14:09, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)
My opinion is that this tree looks like a Cryptomeria. jaknouse 02:03, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
It's a Giant sequoia (Sequoiadendron giganteum). Several photos on the page already. - MPF 18:02, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
While it looks like a sequoia to me, I can't tell at that resolution. It is currently being used as the photo for Sugi. Shouldn't this discussion move back to the current page? -- WormRunner 18:10, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I'm becoming strongly of the mind that we should have more children of this project. Birds and Cetaceans are a good start, but there are plenty of commonality and taxonomic discussions that really need to happen, but here is probably not the place. For instance, I've begun looking at the Primates and they are a mess! Regardless of how fractured the literature is, we should be consistent in our usages. If Catarrhini is a subfamily on the Primates page, it should be a subfamily throughout all of the other primate pages it is on. (Discussions like this would happen on the respective Project pages, instead of on the individual article talk pages.) I suppose, given the demoanarchy (my own neologism, from democracy and anarchy) here, I should just go ahead and make any Project I think needs to be made, but I wanted to get some discussion going about it first. (I'll very likely create Wikipedia:WikiProject Primates this evening regardless.) - UtherSRG 18:46, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Pardalotes | ||||||||||||
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Scientific classification | ||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||
Species | ||||||||||||
P. punnctatus | ||||||||||||
|
I also think it would be wise to have a link to the relavent Project(s) from (at the very least) the taxobox. Something like the taxobox the the right. - UtherSRG 18:52, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I do agree that having something very explicit on the talk page is good, and I've proceeded with that via {{msg:PrimateTalk}}. I don't totally agree with the reasoning to exclude any such info from the article page:
Should the needs of the direct user or the absolute prevention of lossage on the downstream end be given a higher priority? I think the direct user should be given as much preference as is reasonable, without unduely affecting the downstream user. Including the links in the manner I'm suggesting gives significantly more benefit to the direct user than the potential lossage to the downstream user. - UtherSRG 14:28, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Does a change have to solve a problem for it to be valid? Does a change have to cause no problems for it to be valid? I think the answers to both of these questions in 'no'. As I addressed above, this change will add some beneficial links, and cause minimal problems. Print versions of WP will have plenty of other internal WP references. As for the sausage factory, at least there is a factory standard that links together all the bird pages and all the cetaceans and (soon) all the primates, and then above them all of the life articles. There are plenty of articles being made by individual sausage makers without any guidance. I want to make it as easy for the sausage makers to find the sausage making guidelines. The best way would be for the link the the WikiProject to show up on the sideboard for the relevant articles. I don't ever see that happening anytime soon, if at all. The next best way is for it to show up in the article itself in a most unobtrusive manner. - UtherSRG 18:29, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Feh. Well, I'm certainly out-spoken on this one. The overwhelming majority is against these links. Hrm. One final benefit of the link being on the page mean that the "What links here" link on the Project page will get the user the set containing all of the Project's articles (albeit more than just that set). Ok... next thought... is there a way for wiki messages to expand differently for local WP users vs. downstream users? My thought is that the infobox could include the links via a {{msg:Project}} that produces nothing for downstream users and Project links for WP users. - UtherSRG 13:08, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
{{SampleWikiProject}}
UtherSRG, Mav the backwards and forwards reverting of this page is becoming close to an edit war. On the science pages we expect better :-). Let's sort out a reasonable solution: The goal is to have a centered header in the taxoboxes. Some browsers require an align="center" statement to achieve this, others do not. The data I have is this:
Clearly there is something odd in the bowels of Windows (something to do with updates or something) that is causing differing alignment behaviour even within the same version of IE. The issue therefore boils down to a choice of
a) include the align statement - RESULT: everyone has a centered header, at the expensive of a bit more HTML code
or
b) don't include the align statement: RESULT: people may or may not get that centered header. (They may get a left-aligned header instead). The markup is a little bit simpler.
a) or b) is absolutely fine to me. Please discuss here and then pick one that could be stuck to! Thanks, Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 01:29, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Some research shows that the HTML 3.2 reference specification declares that th tags should be centered by default, and presumably the same goes for all later versions. In short, Mav's browsers aren't working properly. Given this, I think it's fair to say that we should leave the tags out unless it proves to be a widespread problem.
Other, more important issues. The ranks on the left side of the tables all redirect to scientific classification, and there seems to be infinitesimal chance that they will ever do anything else. It doesn't make any sense to link them, and there was as I recall some agreement about this in the distant past. Obviously there are too many pages out there to change them all immediately, but couldn't we at least change this here, on the standard page?
Also, guidelines on how big images should be, how a given image should be named and labelled, and where they should be used (given that each will belong to several taxa simultaneously) would be useful. I really don't think the current page greatly reflects current use and issues, and accordingly I've started an alternate page at Wikipedia:WikiProject Tree of Life/Alt that I hope might do a better job. It's still kind of clumsy, but may be worth working on. Please let me know what you think. -- Josh
Ok. I've centered the binomial names, and covered most of everything relevant I can think of. Please add whatever else you think is important, relevant, and safe (not currently under dispute). Then, if there are no objections, I'll replace the current page. Hopefully that'll help us standardize the current taxoboxes and focus on how they should be improved. --JG
Archives for WT:TOL | ||
---|---|---|
1 | 2002-07 – 2003-12 | Article names |
2 | 2003-11 – 2004-02 | Taxoboxes |
3 | 2004-02 | Taxoboxes |
4 | 2004-02 – 2004-08 | Bold taxa; taxonomy |
5 | 2004-03 – 2004-04 | Taxonomy; photos; range maps |
6 | 2005-04 – 2004-06 | Capitalization; authorities; mammals |
7 | 2004-06 – 2004-08 | Creationism; parens; common names |
8 | 2004-05 – 2004-08 | Templates; †extinct; common names |
9 | 2004-05 – 2004-08 | Categories; taxoboxes |
10 | 2004-08 – 2004-12 | Categories; authorities; domains; Wikispecies; ranks; G. species; capitalization; Common Names |
11 | 2004-11 – 2005-05 | Capitalization; common names; categories; L.; authorities; algae; cultivars |
12 | 2005-03 – 2005-05 | Ranks; common names |
13 | 2005-05 – 2005-06 | Hybrids; taxobox format; cultivars |
14 | 2005-06 – 2005-07 | Categories; food plants; identification; Capitalization |
15 | 2005-07 – 2005-09 | Synonyms; types; authorities; status; identification |
16 | 2005-09 – 2005-12 | Paleontological ranges; Rosopsida; Taxobox redesign; identification |
17 | 2005-12 – 2006-04 | Taxobox redesign; identification; APG; common names; capitalization |
18 | 2006-04 – 2006-10 | Categorization; include in references; snakes; range maps; seasonality graph; common names; bioregions; brya; |
19 | 2006-10 – 2007-03 | various |
20 | 2007-03 – 2007-06 | various |
21 | 2007-06 (Next 64 Kb) | various |
22 | (Next 64 Kb) | various |
23 | (Next 64 Kb) | various |
24 | (Next 64 Kb) | various |
I have a question regarding standard templates. I noticed that there has been some discussion on wether to split articles on animals into scientific and more popular ones. I personally think that the information should be in one place and not spread over (or duplicated in) more articles. Since I would like to create some new animal articles, my proposal would be to start with a general introduction / summary and then a more in depth scientific part. The structure I would like to use is:
Scientific name:
Scientific synonyms:
Common name:
Common synonyms:
General introduction: -->here come a summary / popular description
Description:
Habitat:
Diet:
Behaviour:
Reproduction:
Ecology:
Anatomy:
Physiology:
Taxonomy:
Care and maintenance in captivity:
References:
Now, before someone starts to restructure my work, I would like to know if there are any thoughts/comments on my proposal.
I just added a quick paragraph on
Trilliaceae. How does one add the "template stuff" to a page so that it fits in with the TOL framework?
Susan
Would it be a good idea to add something like "status" to the standard table? I'm envisioning this saying something like:
This way people could tell at a glance whether the animal/plant/etc. being discussed is an ancient one, a current but rare one, a common one, etc.
Another possibility would be to have a field "estimated population":
But this may be problematic because I'm not sure even remotely good estimates are available for many species. -- Delirium 21:33, Nov 2, 2003 (UTC)
I'm a newcomer here but have been doing some work on a few species of mammals and birds I know about. I didn't find my way to the standard template until after I had started (I know, I know...) but I do have my doubts about it.
1. the page on the ToL project page badly needs re-writing to reflect current realities - the project seems to have evolved since the page was put together. Who has the authority to do that?
2. I agree that we certainly don't want two types of pages, popular and scientific. We should get the two sorts of information onto a single page, though we need to flag, at least implicitly, the level we're talking at - usually pretty clear from style and content
3. Partly because of (2), the rigid use of a template should be avoided. Particularly with taxa where there's a dearth of scientific knowledge, it's going to lead to unattractive articles with sections like
Diet: little known
etc etc. Have a look at one I've just done on the Woolly Flying Squirrel - as it stands, it's a quick summary of what we know that you can read in seconds - if we templated it, it would stretch over 2 screens and look a mess. (And it's likely to stand like that for some time unless we can track down P. Zahler and get him/her to fill in the details.) On the other hand, a template is always a useful checklist, and where we know more should probably normally be used, if only to flag up gaps in the article that others with an interest should be able to fill.
seglea at 0522utc on 031104
Who has the authority to do that?
So, the article headers seem to have little support, and are rarely if ever still used. Can we take them out, so that we can focus on organization and the taxoboxes, which are used everywhere? It would be much more helpful to make this page a description of the standard wikipedia treatment of taxa.
There are several articles which are just lists of genera in a family (e.g. List of Araliaceae genera). It seems to me we should merge those with the family in each case. Any objections, or other thoughts? WormRunner 04:59, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)
It doesn't like there has been any discussion about expanding the taxobox (BTW, see Wikipedia:Taxobox) to include other information besides classification. I think it would be a Good Thing to include stuff like:
Eastern Yellow Robin | ||||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Status: secure | ||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||
Binomial name | ||||||||||||||
Eopsaltria australis |
I agree with Seglea + world + dog that it is a bad idea to add more info to the taxoboxes. But I think that the suggestion made above about the creature's status is an excellent one. This is, after all, the single most important bit of information there is about the creature - i.e., does it even exist anymore?
Some time ago, I spent quite a few hours trying to work up a taxobox form that would (a) contain the animal's conservation status in an easily-read, at-a-glance way, and (b) not clutter up the page or take too much space. I never did get one that I was 100% happy with, but my drafts are still here on the 'pedia somewhere, probably in a subpage of my user space. Tannin 11:03, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Or, as I wrote on my scratchpad: I think it would be a vast improvement to have the IUCN conservaton categories as part of the taxoboxes - (a) because that is very important information, (b) because, seeing as we are using so much screen real estate for the taxoboxes already, we might as well make them work a bit harder for their living, ad (c) becasuse it's one of the few items of information that is always present for any animal: i.e., all animals have a conservation category, even if it is just "data deficient". Tannin 11:15, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Well, it looks like the consensus is to not drastically expand the taxobox, but there is interest in the range map and the conservation status. Maybe we should look at this bottom up rather than top down. Are there any other pieces of info that might be looked on favorably? Should the species box be fundamentally different from the higher categories? Any changes in standard format people would like to see? I would like to see less bold type and more consistent inclusion of the author of the taxon. WormRunner 07:20, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I think that it would be neat to add a few well-chosen items to the bottom of taxoboxes (such as Red Book status, range, habitat type). It would also be neat to have maps showing the range. But all those changes will have to be decided upon by consensus. -- mav 08:51, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
As you say, Mav, adding more information to the bottom would be neat. I'll ponder which information in another post. But first, I think we need to consider another factor: this is that the longer the taxobox grows, the more difficult it makes the layout of the page as a whole. In particular, a long taxobox makes it all-but impossible to add a picture. Sure, you can pot a picture in the box itself, but you often need two or three pictures to do justice to a subject. Many bird species have very different male, female, and juvenile plumages, for example. Sometimes you might want a nest, or maybe even some representative habitat. It's the same with plants. Often the best arrangement is to have (for example) a mature tree in the taxobox, a close-up of the leaf and blossom, and finally the fruit. If you have a long taxobox, you can't fit the 2nd and 3rd pictures into the text as there is not enough horozontal space for them (unless the article is a good deal longer than average).
So, yes, I'm in favour of making the taxoboxes as informative as possible, but also in favour of making them as small as possible. Obviously, these goals are mutually incompatible. Somewhere in the middle is the ideal compromise. But exactly where? We need to ponder this carefully, I think, and try out as many ideas as we can to find the best one. Tannin 09:05, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I'd say that's the important point, that stuff in the taxobox be generally applicable, and also something that tends to vary within the group. Diet isn't likely to be exceptionally simple or different for most species of termites, say, and simply doesn't apply to most plants. Status, however, could be genuinely useful for extinct groups if it is extended to a temporal range. It's worth knowing that Tyrannosaurus is from the Late Cretaceous and Apatosaurus from the Late Jurassic, and that sort of information should apply to nearly everything. -- Josh
I just pick up Wormrunner's side point of adding the author of the taxon. I did include that one with the latest taxoboxes I did in case I could find the info, however it didn't look much good for those cases the author isn't abbreviated - the "L." behind is no problem, but if it is two names a linebreak is necessary, and also I'd prefer it be non-bolded as it is less important than the taxonomic name except for the biologists. BTW: Binomial nomenclature does not mention that the author is often listed after the taxonomic names, can anyone add it who knows more about that scheme than me. Also interesting would be the rules when and how the author is abbreviated - that Linne gets a L. is rather easy to grasp, but he is not the only one I saw abbreviated. andy 09:27, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
(Copied from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Birds): It seems that the 'th' tag automatically centers and bolds. As I'm editting, I'm removing the align="center" and all bolding from 'th' tagged lines. This has no effect on the display, but makes the html more user readable. I'm also making sure there's a line for an image, taged with 'td align="center"' and includes only a comment to but the image there. - UtherSRG 20:32, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)
(Copied from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Birds): Bah! I seriously dislike the wiki table markup. It is not readable in the slightest. The HTML tags, although sometimes cryptic, at least have some bearing on what they affect. When I see a 'table' tag, I know I'm dealing with a table, 'tr' a row in that table, 'th' a heading in the table, 'td' a piece of data in the table. Bah on wiki tables! - UtherSRG 16:01, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I have just added my first cetacea range map - at Sperm Whale. I would very much appreciate advice on the map itself, and its positioning on the article page. Graphic design is not my forte! Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 20:00, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I have uploaded several pictures you people might be interested in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plants_and_animals_of_Belize Most are unidentified and any help along those lines would be appreciated I took all of them in Belize where I reside and will take request for anything that is native to Belize and will try to fill request in a timely manner. Belizian 03:24, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC) Added more pics Belizian
I was walking around
Kenilworth Castle and spotted
this tree, which I didn't recognise but thought perhaps rather uncommon (at least in the
United Kingdom); is it (a) identifiable and (b) worthwhile for the Wikipedia? (The images on that site are licensed as public domain.)
James F.
(talk) 14:09, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)
My opinion is that this tree looks like a Cryptomeria. jaknouse 02:03, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
It's a Giant sequoia (Sequoiadendron giganteum). Several photos on the page already. - MPF 18:02, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
While it looks like a sequoia to me, I can't tell at that resolution. It is currently being used as the photo for Sugi. Shouldn't this discussion move back to the current page? -- WormRunner 18:10, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I'm becoming strongly of the mind that we should have more children of this project. Birds and Cetaceans are a good start, but there are plenty of commonality and taxonomic discussions that really need to happen, but here is probably not the place. For instance, I've begun looking at the Primates and they are a mess! Regardless of how fractured the literature is, we should be consistent in our usages. If Catarrhini is a subfamily on the Primates page, it should be a subfamily throughout all of the other primate pages it is on. (Discussions like this would happen on the respective Project pages, instead of on the individual article talk pages.) I suppose, given the demoanarchy (my own neologism, from democracy and anarchy) here, I should just go ahead and make any Project I think needs to be made, but I wanted to get some discussion going about it first. (I'll very likely create Wikipedia:WikiProject Primates this evening regardless.) - UtherSRG 18:46, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Pardalotes | ||||||||||||
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I also think it would be wise to have a link to the relavent Project(s) from (at the very least) the taxobox. Something like the taxobox the the right. - UtherSRG 18:52, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I do agree that having something very explicit on the talk page is good, and I've proceeded with that via {{msg:PrimateTalk}}. I don't totally agree with the reasoning to exclude any such info from the article page:
Should the needs of the direct user or the absolute prevention of lossage on the downstream end be given a higher priority? I think the direct user should be given as much preference as is reasonable, without unduely affecting the downstream user. Including the links in the manner I'm suggesting gives significantly more benefit to the direct user than the potential lossage to the downstream user. - UtherSRG 14:28, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Does a change have to solve a problem for it to be valid? Does a change have to cause no problems for it to be valid? I think the answers to both of these questions in 'no'. As I addressed above, this change will add some beneficial links, and cause minimal problems. Print versions of WP will have plenty of other internal WP references. As for the sausage factory, at least there is a factory standard that links together all the bird pages and all the cetaceans and (soon) all the primates, and then above them all of the life articles. There are plenty of articles being made by individual sausage makers without any guidance. I want to make it as easy for the sausage makers to find the sausage making guidelines. The best way would be for the link the the WikiProject to show up on the sideboard for the relevant articles. I don't ever see that happening anytime soon, if at all. The next best way is for it to show up in the article itself in a most unobtrusive manner. - UtherSRG 18:29, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Feh. Well, I'm certainly out-spoken on this one. The overwhelming majority is against these links. Hrm. One final benefit of the link being on the page mean that the "What links here" link on the Project page will get the user the set containing all of the Project's articles (albeit more than just that set). Ok... next thought... is there a way for wiki messages to expand differently for local WP users vs. downstream users? My thought is that the infobox could include the links via a {{msg:Project}} that produces nothing for downstream users and Project links for WP users. - UtherSRG 13:08, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
{{SampleWikiProject}}
UtherSRG, Mav the backwards and forwards reverting of this page is becoming close to an edit war. On the science pages we expect better :-). Let's sort out a reasonable solution: The goal is to have a centered header in the taxoboxes. Some browsers require an align="center" statement to achieve this, others do not. The data I have is this:
Clearly there is something odd in the bowels of Windows (something to do with updates or something) that is causing differing alignment behaviour even within the same version of IE. The issue therefore boils down to a choice of
a) include the align statement - RESULT: everyone has a centered header, at the expensive of a bit more HTML code
or
b) don't include the align statement: RESULT: people may or may not get that centered header. (They may get a left-aligned header instead). The markup is a little bit simpler.
a) or b) is absolutely fine to me. Please discuss here and then pick one that could be stuck to! Thanks, Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 01:29, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Some research shows that the HTML 3.2 reference specification declares that th tags should be centered by default, and presumably the same goes for all later versions. In short, Mav's browsers aren't working properly. Given this, I think it's fair to say that we should leave the tags out unless it proves to be a widespread problem.
Other, more important issues. The ranks on the left side of the tables all redirect to scientific classification, and there seems to be infinitesimal chance that they will ever do anything else. It doesn't make any sense to link them, and there was as I recall some agreement about this in the distant past. Obviously there are too many pages out there to change them all immediately, but couldn't we at least change this here, on the standard page?
Also, guidelines on how big images should be, how a given image should be named and labelled, and where they should be used (given that each will belong to several taxa simultaneously) would be useful. I really don't think the current page greatly reflects current use and issues, and accordingly I've started an alternate page at Wikipedia:WikiProject Tree of Life/Alt that I hope might do a better job. It's still kind of clumsy, but may be worth working on. Please let me know what you think. -- Josh
Ok. I've centered the binomial names, and covered most of everything relevant I can think of. Please add whatever else you think is important, relevant, and safe (not currently under dispute). Then, if there are no objections, I'll replace the current page. Hopefully that'll help us standardize the current taxoboxes and focus on how they should be improved. --JG