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This page was nominated for deletion on 25 April 2007. The result of the discussion was Mark {{ historical}}, Please do not edit or modify suggest rewrite as a guideline. |
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Should we now consider either splitting the ongoing t/T debate into its own page, or archiving the remainder. I would prefer splitting as I think policy discussion should be kept in the open and be available for further discussion, however the current matter does seem to be taking up most of the space. Er... if there is consensus would somebody kindly do the deed (I'm only here for the bunfights, don'cha know?) LessHeard vanU 22:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Just a note: I don't believe the British have really decided on -ize versus -ise. There is apparently a movement afoot among certain British publications to revert to -ize, apparently on the theory that it more accurately reflects the Greek origine of the suffix. For a more learned discussion, please see http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ise1.htm. McTavidge 04:31, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
We just seem to have went through a revert cycle over -ize/-ise spelling... Maybe the talk page should carry a notice at the top that this article uses UK spelling rather than US to avoid that? ++ Lar: t/ c 16:48, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
The idea was mooted at Talk:The Beatles of adding a bit to this template to indicate that Beatles articles should be written in British English. Opinions? - GTBacchus( talk) 02:22, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
<-- I think it's too small, but I'm sick of my own voice so let's wait until User:GTBacchus comes back or someone else shows up with an opinion. -- kingboyk 04:00, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm personally wondering about the need to include this at all. I'm pretty sure the guidelines (or is it policy) are that all articles should be in what is termed 'British English' by default, unless the subject of the article is based in a country which speaks a different dialect of English. I think it might be best to simply state that the articles in question are part of the project, and re-enforce the policy on the main project page (along with the note on categories). Has there been much trouble regarding dialects? -- Mal 05:17, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
"National Varieties of English" and here Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(spelling) ... so I wasn't quite right, but close. ++Lar
Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#National_varieties_of_English -- kingboyk 06:47, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Afterthought: if people are determined that some note about English usages should be mentioned in the template, then how about a simple note saying "For editing guidelines see pageX" where pageX contains the editing guidelines for this project (and the page is obviously wiki'ed). -- Mal 05:20, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I see. OK - in that case I still think the suggestion I made in my afterthought makes sense. -- Mal 05:53, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Any exceptions can be discussed here. -- kingboyk 19:57, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I was under the impression that within a sentence, the the in front of a group name does not need to be capitalized. You wouldn't write "I really like The Beatles" just as you wouldn't write "I really like The Dallas Cowboys." This needs to be fixed in the article. — simpatico hi 19:10, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Okay, what's important here would be consistency within Wikipedia, so I would suggest whatever the choice, we might suggest the Wikipedia policy pages be updated to suggest that choice. Either way doesn't detract from my understanding of the topic, so I'm not really concerned either way.
But, I did some homework. I have a copy of The Chicago Manual of Style (14th Edition). Chapter 7.2:
And in almost all non-first-word-in-the-sentence examples they have lower case on the, including the Crown, the Sun King, etc. There are various group names (the Congress of the United States, etc.) but nothing in the specific category of something like a pop band. But under 7.135 (part of Books and periodicals), we have (after discussing dropping a title's initial article entirely when it made the sentence awkward):
So this very American style book leans toward the Beatles, but with an opening for The Beatles.
As they are an English band, however, I would want to see the English style book (is there one?) checked as it looks like we Yanks are a bit shyer about the capitals.
In the same vein, we might want to double check the same references at The English Amazon Site to see if they English editions capitalize differently (I checked one - they had the Beatles). John (Jwy) 06:56, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Lion King, blame this guy.-- jfg284 you were saying? 17:14, 25 January 2006 :You blame him. Lion King
The Beatles Anthology book refers to them as "The Beatles" throughout, but
Hunter Davies' biography (the 1981 edition) uses "the Beatles". I also recently got
a book about
The Verve (or the Verve, if you prefer) from the library, which capitalises all the thes in band names.
Personally I tend to use a lower-case "the" in band names and in the middle of titles, but a capital letter at the start of titles. For example, "I recently read the book The Lord of the Rings", not the Lord of the Rings, the Lord of the Rings or The Lord Of The Rings. I'd say, "I really like the Beatles' albums The Beatles and With the Beatles." Actually, I'd refer to the first one as The White Album, but you get the point. :)
I've also somehow got it into my head that in song titles, every letter should be capitalised: "Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds".
I don't know what to think now. :) -- Nick R Talk 12:42, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm not an English major, so this is purely opinion, but...The way I see it, "The Beatles" should be used whenever you are referring to the group as a whole, and when they're being specifically addressed. For example, "I really like The Beatles", or "Among the influential bands of the 60's were The Beatles." However, I also think "Beatles" may be considered a word on its own, used to describe individual members ("George was a Beatle") and things that are related to The Beatles ("I have several Beatles records"). And you know how we say things like "Beatles-esque", and not "The Beatles-esque"? Also, I think that although "the Beatles" could be used in certain situations it should be used sparingly...Eg. "Paul McCartney was one of the Beatles" or "Paul McCartney was one of The Beatles"...The first example seems to refer to Beatles as in each individual member, and Paul being among those members, so it seems to make sense. The second applies Paul as being part of The Beatles taken as a whole. It seems to make sense as well. But the only reason I would lean to capitalizing "The" is for consistency. What do you think? Stapler 9 42
"The "t" in "the" does not need to be capitalized. I encourage you to look at an style dictionary or article/essay/book on the Beatles" - well that told me, didn't it?! [2] So, anyway, we ought to standardise on one or the other - "The Beatles" or "the Beatles"? I think he's wrong, as policy actually lists "The Beatles" - Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(definite_and_indefinite_articles_at_beginning_of_name)#Names_of_bands_and_groups -- kingboyk 17:09, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Listen, you whinging poms, don't pin this kerfluffle on UK/US differences, ok? I'm all in favor of "The" rather than "the"... That said, Carlo says above: "It is standard practice when determining usage to allow those whose logo it is to make such determinations (e.g., Barneys New York has no apostrophe or comma...)" WP does not do things that way, because if it did, you'd find the main LEGO article at LEGO instead of that page being a redirect to Lego. THAT said, I agree with Steve/Kingboyk, let this discussion run its course, and then add the outcome to project policy, just like we did on British/US English spelling variation (we chose British for obvious reasons), and let the greater WP rage on as it likes. ++ Lar: t/ c 13:38, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Alright, I think consensus is clear, it's "The Beatles", so let's make it Project policy. Can I just ask (and apologies in advance for being a pain in the arse), but are there any exceptions (e.g. "each of the Beatles")? I'll probably do an AWB run sometime to bring consistency to the articles so I need to know if I should change every instance of "the Beatles" or whether some discretion is required. -- kingboyk 21:20, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I am not ready to draft the policy text yet because, not being a grammatician, I can't clearly articulate the rule for the exceptions. But I am SURE there are some out there. I think they, or some of them, revolve around possessives, as I alluded to in the thread above. I would on the other hand be comfortable with a statement of "no exceptions unless someone presents a case for the exception that's clearly articulated and which is a rule that can be applied consistently" or something like that... ++ Lar: t/ c 19:49, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I think I may have something. I started an AWB run yesterday, and "The Beatles" looked bad in quite a few places so I gave up for the evening. I thought of the following example as a possible exception when I was in bed last night:
Would it not be the case, then, that it's "The Beatles" when referring to the name of the group as a proper noun, but not when it is used to indicate four (or even two or more) individuals who are Beatles? This might also extend to the possessive. Comments? -- kingboyk 17:26, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I'd still like to see what a British style manual (comparable to Chicago in the U.S.) has to say about the matter. -- Lukobe 03:43, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
After racking my brains, the only scenario I could come up with is if a non-UK, variant English speaking culture, editor contributed a Beatles specific article relating to that country. For example, if a US editor was to produce an article called "John Lennon's New York" then it would follow that naming and grammer conventions would follow the native grammer style - especially in that the article is as much about NY as it is Lennon. LessHeard vanU 12:35, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
The US editor responded by commenting that not only did he consider that "the" should be capitalised as per UK English, but that it would be true for some proper nouns in US English. Whilst he demurs that he is a grammarian, I think we can now proceed on the basis that the case for capitalisation is proven. Lukobe, whilst there indeed may be reference books supporting your contentions, I think this discourse has now been exhausted. If you feel you can contribute to The Beatle articles under the existing grammatical policy, your help would be welcome. LessHeard vanU 00:28, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Maybe I missed where this was discussed, but from the band's album covers, it's not obvious to me that they considered the word "The" an essential part of their name. Note that the cover of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, an album to which a great deal of attention was paid to the production of the cover, shows the band name as "BEATLES" instead of "THE BEATLES". The word "The" was similarly omitted from the front cover of Beatles for Sale and Magical Mystery Tour. Obviously, several of the band's albums do refer to them as The Beatles as opposed to just Beatles (and other album covers do not display the band name at all on the front), but this just suggests to me that the band considered the word "The" in their name to be optional. -- Metropolitan90 05:07, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
IMHO... this whole non-issue ("the" vs. "The") is a bunch of damned hairsplitting, and I notice that while a few folks fastidiously change "the" to "The" when the word "Beatles" follows, REGARDLESS OF THE CONTEXT OR HOW MANY TIMES THE NAME HAS ALREADY BEEN MENTIONED AND/OR CAPITALISED, this is not done with any other bands; not even within the same article. This is time- and space-wasting... not to mention a bit hypocritical. Zephyrad 23:19, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
One can write: "Chuck us "the" jam, I want to make a buttie", but not: "I think "the" Jam are a rubbish band". It's their NAME and "The" needs to be capitalised wherever and whenever it appears in a sentence - I was taught that shortly after we'd stopped writing with crayons! Vera, Chuck & Dave 13:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I never wrote with crayons... I coloured with mine, and wrote with a pen, or pencil as needed. And you still haven't answered my point: While I see where you and others have gone around to site after site to implement this Non-Issue with the "The" thing... none of you with this same wild hair are capitalising the T for ANY OTHER BANDS, even within the SAME ARTICLE (eg. " The Remo Four"). So, are we to believe the Beatles are the ONLY band who should get this alleged "show of appreciation"? Sounds like hypocrisy to me. Zephyrad 22:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Are we all still going on about this? Or are you lot just taking the piss out of each other? It's the longest discussion in the whole project about the very smallest thing. :). I think next month we should nominate it for "running project joke of the month"... + + Lar: t/ c 22:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
So, did someone ask for an expert in British English? I was a proofreader who worked to Hart’s Rules, have had 19 years in publishing and editing, and I have to agree with my American colleague above, plus the half-dozen books that Simpatico claims she has in her possession. I can’t believe this was such a long thread and how the capitalization proponents were so stubborn, coming up with weak arguments with little place in English usage, in my opinion.
The perfect example is the United States: you always use it with the definite article, yet it is never capitalized mid-sentence. One of the few exceptions that come to mind is The Hague. Lukobe, you asked for an equivalent of Chicago above: Hart’s Rules, at least the edition I have, is unclear on this particular matter.
Hart’s does discuss one matter, addressed to those citing titles such as those of newspapers and magazines. If the definite article is attributable to the rest of the title, then it is capitalized (and italicized). But at the same time, musical groups do not tend to be considered ‘works’ in the same context, according to most house styles and authorities. So if one is to adopt a British standard, and Hart’s is very well regarded in the UK, then it suggests there is no difference between the US and the UK on this issue.
And if the copy editors who worked on the books Simpatico cites are wrong, and if the Amazon.com editor with the master’s degree is wrong, and if I am wrong (and I have a master’s, too), then why even seek the opinions of professionals here? Among professionals, it does appear the lowercase usage outnumbers the capitalized ones; it is only among amateurs that the professional usage is slammed! Thus, we have reached, above, a conclusion that is at complete odds with what most publishing houses would adopt.
So let the pros be wrong. In which case, Ringo Starr’s site, which uses the lowercase
[4] must also be wrong. George doesn’t seem to mention it. John Lennon’s people must be wrong on their official site.
[5] Brian Epstein’s site is wrong.
[6] Only Paul McCartney capitalizes.
[7] So perhaps Paul is right, and Ringo, John (and Yoko) and Brian are wrong?
On that logic, The Times’
[8] proofreaders and subeditors must also be wrong. As are The Independent
[9], The Guardian
[10], The Daily Telegraph
[11] and even The Sun.
[12] All British newspapers are wrong.
Someone mentioned that the quotations on the Beatles’ official site used lowercase—since these are cited from a professionally edited publication, doesn’t that tell you something? But even those pages not from Derek Taylor’s book there appear to be all lowercase, at least on the pages I see. So the Beatles’ official site is wrong.
I know I will get plenty of criticism from those who have never set foot inside the publishing industry. Fine. Criticize the professionals, but note how your beloved Beatles themselves have used it on their sites, with the exception of Sir Paul. (Or, will Lion King now tell me that John’s, Ringo’s, Brian’s and the Beatles’ sites do not count?)—
Jack Yan 12:27, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
The Chicago Manual of Style has an online Q&A forum in which this question has been asked and answered (the editors go for "the") (see http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/CMS_FAQ/CapitalizationTitles/CapitalizationTitles34.html). The example given there of the band "the The" shows the odd result that can come from capitalizing the article in this context. My sense is that there has been an increase, over time, in the article's capitalization, and I associate it in particular with the efforts by Apple to protect and strengthen the Beatle brand. An aspect of this effort seems to be a conscious campaign to project a consistent brand image using the stylized "The Beatles" logo borrowed from Ringo's bass drum. I first noticed this around the time of the Anthology project, and Apple seems to have been fairly consistent in its use of this logo since then. Apple also seems to have been pretty consistent in capitalizing the article in ordinary text as well since that time. I view this tendency on Apple's part -- i.e., to capitalize the article in ordinary text -- as Apple simply promoting consistency in the presentation of the brand. I think, moreover, that this has influenced a newer generation of Beatles writers, who I suspect see in the Apple usage an authoritative arbiter. My concern, however, is that what we're really seeing here is merely "brand management" on Apple's part. If Apple wants to manage the brand, that's fine, but it's their business, not ours -- we're not bound by their stylistic choices. McTavidge 05:22, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I have no strong feelings about the question itself but I DO have some strong feelings about the way this convo has unfolded. I'd rather we all try our best to remain collegial, if possible. Some of us have some strides to make in that regard, I think, and hopefully that's all that's needed to get things back on track. Really, this isn't worth getting mean about, is it? Thanks. ++ Lar: t/ c 22:25, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
So, where are we? Again, looks to me as if the only citations to authority have supported lowercase "t." What's the process for calling it? Thanks. McTavidge 03:27, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
As requested in Newsletter 9 and commented in Newsletter 10 there has been no authorities given for keeping the capitalisation of the letter t of the in "the Beatles". The authorities for lower case are The Times and The Guardian, which cover the range of British English use.
I will now proceed to put in motion the adoption of lower case use as Project Policy. If someone can develop a bot or other means to do this task then please do so! LessHeard vanU 22:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I think I found the citation which trumps everything at [13] Steelbeard1 03:46, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
So far I think we have two style policies, right:
What other areas need (or already have) policy?
++ Lar: t/ c 21:40, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I think there are too many individual references to "Paul", "John", and "Ringo" (but not so many to poor old "George"). I am not certain of Wiki format, but I feel that the band members should individually be initially referred to by their full name (first and surname) or surname only, and only then be referred by their first name** within the same article, section etc. This would appear to be more formal, thus better for an encyclopedia. Obvious exceptions would be "John, Paul, George and Ringo" and "John and Yoko", since these appelations are already well known. Perhaps we had best have a concensus before agreeing (or not) to this naming policy? LessHeard vanU 21:50, 12 April 2006 (UTC) **Just to be clear, did you actually mean "surname" there? Cos if you didn't, I'm not agreeing with you I'm taking the opposite sides :) If we refer to our subjects by their first names it's like we're mates with them; whereas the tone we should strive for is that of the neutral chronicler (alright, with a bit of fan enthusiasm perhaps :)) -- kingboyk 17:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I'm rather tired of seeing "Sir" in front of Paul's name. I don't know what it adds to the discussion to be constantly reminded that he was knighted. Moreover, we didn't call him "Mr." McCartney pre-knighthood; why should we start in with the titles now? Besides, it strikes me as contrary to the Beatles' basically egalitarian perspective to point out his elevated "rank." McTavidge 05:33, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Obviously the first question is "do we even need a policy regarding female editors?", possibly followed by "why is this question being asked?". I thought about this before proposing the heading, and my simple answer is that I feel we need some female NPOV in the articles. I am aware that NPOV is by defination gender indifferent, but I think that some articles fall within the NPOV criteria yet are orientated toward a male perspective of "relevance"/"importance". All I am suggesting is that the Project policy makes clear that contributions from either gender are welcome, which in itself may make the Project more attractive to female (would be) editors. The subject matter of the Project profoundly influenced, and was influenced by, the female experience during and after its lifespan - it may be good to get some of that perspective within the articles.
I have carefully thought about bringing this up - so if your response is scorn or bewilderment please don't hesitate to respond accordingly. I would rather this point be debated and rejected now than to have reason to wish it had been aired previously at some later date. LessHeard vanU 21:20, 24 May 2006 (UTC) (male - if that matters)
I don't think we need a policy per se. But maybe some offsides encouragment?... if you know some, ask them to put their hand in when you are talking to them informally. I'm sure our articles have systemic bias as do many. Technophilic, white, male, western culture centric, etc. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias. As for TV, we have 4 in our house but I never watch them except if I'm eating. WP is where it is at. Er, wait, I WASN'T supposed to respond? Oops. + + Lar: t/ c 22:32, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Although that page is itself tagged as "a guideline only and not policy" should we be following the guidance there? Or are we happy that we have had enough community discussion and review to have our Project's policies stick? (I personally think the above threads answer my question in the affirmative, but "policy wonks" (copyright Lar) might not agree with me). Comments? -- kingboyk 12:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I was going to step away from this, since I was only going by the rules and I didn't want to get into a big dispute (especially with editors who I respect and have enjoyed working with), but recent events have brought me back.
The debate about naming the convention regarding the capitalisation or not of the letter "t" of the in t/The Beatles has been going on for a while. I have endured the snide remarks of a Twit, and have engaged in civil debate with some others who continued to question Project policy regarding the issue. I pointed out the need to establish a reasonable argument for their viewpoint over and above that of some professional knowledge so there could be a debate. When they did provide reasonable grounds for reopening the debate I used the offices of the Beatles Newsletter Issue 9:Issue of the Month to request comment, debate on the matter. There was no response. In the next Newsletter Issue 10:Issue of last Month I commented that there had been no response, and that the Project policy would be altered to use of the lowercase. Again, nobody other than the proponents responded. After a brief while I did as I said I would, and amended the Policy.
The new Policy is not to the liking of some of the editors involved the the Beatles Project (as the previous one was not to others.) After the policy was implemented reasons and arguments for retaining the previous convention were given. Authorities were cited and some discussion was created. Very recently more than one editor has edited Beatles related articles specifically to reflect the previous policy.
My preference is to capitalise the letter t of the in the Beatles.
Wikipedia has very few rules; two of the most important relate to consensus and verifiability.
Wikipedia:WikiProject The Beatles has a specific area for the implementation (following debate and consensus) of Policy. The associate talkpage records the debate and the arguments used in reaching Policy decisions. The Project also maintains the principle of abiding by the rules that have been agreed, and the fundemental Wikipedia ethos of consensus.
No recent discussion occurred when the matter of the use of lowercase or uppercase was notified in two Newsletters, other than between myself and the proponets of lowercase at the Policy talkpage. Since Policy implementation discussion has only occurred on the talkpages of concerned editors, or on the talkpages of some of the articles, and not at the Policy talkpage.
More than one editor has unilaterally decided to ignore the new Policy, going so far as to amend articles to reflect the previous convention.
The Beatles Project is being disrupted by editors who I personally know to be conscientious and dedicated contributors of long and good standing. In that there is now occurring what might be considered vandalism (the knowing altering of articles in a manner that is against Wikipedian and Project rules and policy), likely as a result of their strongly held views, I believe that this matter needs urgent addressing. I am copying this to the Policy talkpage, and to all the editors involved in formulating the new policy and the recent opponents. I suggest that this debate is taken there, and that this matter is decided in a civil manner in accordance with the principles of Wikipedia.
I am deeply saddened that it has come to this. I am depressed that editors (people) whose integrity and civility (not to say sheer fun) I had been proud to be associated with have acted in (what I see as)
bad faith and flagrant disregard for the rules and guidelines of both Wikipedia and The Beatles Project.
LessHeard vanU 23:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree -- it really is too bad that things have taken this turn. It didn't have to go this way. It's actually embarrassing at this point. McTavidge 01:07, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
There is no rush to change the to The or vice versa. Let's try to come to a general consensus and then change stuff. I think that would really be for the best. Let's also try not to get into too much arguments over this. It's a relatively minor point really, and there is no need for snippy commentary or hard feelings. This is a wiki. Policy changes. Further, because it's a wiki we have time to get things right, there is no rush. Let's go slow, talk collegially and figure out what to do. ++ Lar: t/ c 17:14, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your new comments on the "The/the" dispute. Strong legal citations have emerged which indicate that "The Beatles" should be used as it is a registered trademark. Check out this discussion [14] which includes a link to the UK Patent Office which proves that "The Beatles" as well as "Beatles" are registered trade marks of Apple Corps Ltd. The actual link is at [15]. So does legal reasons trump grammatical reasons? Steelbeard1 03:34, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Now that was refreshing, Steelbeard1 -- in your last sentence above, you actually asked the question that matters (i.e., whether "legal reasons trump grammatical reasons") rather than assuming the answer and proceeding from there. McTavidge 04:57, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Incidentally, the citation you give to the UK Patent Office's record of the Beatles TM filing doesn't show what you purport that it shows. It shows the following: THE BEATLES, BEATLES, Beatles [DRUM LOGO], The Beatles [DRUM LOGO]. You could just as readily argue from this that the intent was to get trademark protection for THE BEATLES and that we therefore should always put it in all caps. McTavidge 05:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
So this is where you're all hanging out... I didn't know it was here until I stumbled on it by accident—I'm usually too busy to go window shopping.
Well, it seems as if Vera and I have been singled out as nothing short of "definite article" vandals for our stance, when we have cited our position. To create all this hullaballoo over an 'article' is taking the word pedantic to new extremes. Can we take a step back and look at this in the cold light of day? To wit:
We are ignoring the servicing of the car because we disagree about whether 'The' indicator light is faulty or not. There may be a concensus (between how many editors exactly?) but this problem/discussion will keep reappearing forever and ever, and there will definitely be no "Amen". Call us eccentric, stubborn, stupid, blind or dumb, but never call us vandals. andreasegde 14:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
P.S. We have already been called (supposed) vandals, and have seen that "Maybe an RFC needs to be filed against such editors". I am totally shocked at such a knee-jerk reaction. BTW, Vera and I are pushing the boundaries, because Paul, Freddie, Mimi, Julia and Neil have all gone from B to GA status, and " that band from Liverpool" are still GA. We are being chastised because of ONE SINGLE LETTER of the alphabet being changed from lower case to upper case. If you don't find that ridiculous, then I do. I think "that band from Liverpool's" project is in serious danger of collapsing in on itself amid petty bickering. andreasegde 14:46, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Trademark law doesn't turn on such things as capital letters and even (sometimes) spelling. If someone were to use, for instance, "the beatles" (all lowercase) or even "the beetles" (spelled differently and all lowercase) in commerce, that person would likely be infringing on the trademark, even though the infringing uses don't match any filed examples. This is so because the general test for trademark infringement is whether someone is using another's mark in a confusingly similar way, regardless of capitalization or, in certain cases (e.g., soundalikes) spelling. To say that the trademark is "The Beatles" (and, presumably, not "the Beatles") would necessarily imply that use of "the Beatles" wouldn't be an infringement of the mark, when clearly it must be. (What good would a trademark law be if it didn't protect against silly distinctions like these? You would see marks like "Zerox" and "Foard" and "Toiota," and Xerox, Ford, and Toyota would have no legal recourse to stop these confusingly similar marks.) Therefore, the choice of a capital "t" in the trademark filing is arbitrary and legally insignificant. Since it has no legal significance, it can't even begin to have any significance for English usage. McTavidge 17:44, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I found a great example. There was a band in the 80s called The The. Now, what do we do with that, I ask? andreasegde 23:42, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Why has no-one answered this question? andreasegde 14:37, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
OK, time to review a little.
Books and articles -- There's clearly a divergence of views among those writing books and articles about the Beatles. Some capitalize, some don't. That's not a promising avenue of argument for either view.
Trademark -- Although it hasn't been articulated particularly clearly, the trademark-filing-based argument for capitalization seems to go something like this: The trademark filing shows an instance of capitalization. Therefore, this is "proof" that capitalization is "correct" and furthermore that any nonconforming usage is an infringement. Have I correctly summarized the argument? If not, let me know where I've strayed. I'd like to make sure I understand.
It would be helpful if one of the uppercase supporters would summarize my argument, just so we can be sure we're all really understanding each other.
Incidentally, I was away from this for about five hours today and in the interim someone posted anonymously a message about passing off an article (meaning the Beatles-related Wikipedia articles) as being about the Beatles, except that the "the" was capitalized in his or her comment. It was intended as a retort to me and as a gotcha (I was discussing the trademark law concept of passing off). This was interesting not only because it showed that the anonymous poster didn't really understand anything about trademark law and didn't seem to care that his comment betrayed his ignorance but also because Andreasegde incorrectly assumed I had posted the goofy comment and then deliriously cheered: "You did it again! You wrote "The Beatles" yourself. Game, Set, and Match." Come on -- can't this discussion be elevated above that level? Even if I had written and accidentally failed to sign the goofy comment, surely I didn't deserve the all-caps shout: "SIGN IN; DON'T JUST LEAVE A COMMENT." McTavidge 04:35, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
One more thing -- on infringement (since this keeps coming up). You can't "infringe" another's trademark (i.e., be liable for damages) unless you use the other's trademark as a trademark. See [17], the part that talks about non-trademark use. McTavidge 04:48, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
If the goofy remark thing was a mistake, I apologise, and you can have my set of The Beatles' bubble-gum cards. andreasegde 09:54, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Now, who are we (AMATEUR editors) to state that there must be a fixed policy? If anyone dares to suggest that they know more about style, or have a firmer grasp on grammar than respected professional editors and writers (who don't agree with each other) or the people at FA (Macca's review) who didn't mention 'The/the' problem AT ALL, or even the Wikipedia editors who reviewed the last five GA articles, then I suggest a visit to the clinic to sort out their ego problems. Nobody cites it as a problem, apart from here. andreasegde 10:06, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to ask everyone to be a bit more collegial and a bit less "taking bait" or "challenging" if at all possible. The goal here is to get to an agreement that we all can work with, and to avoid warring. We're all here, presumably, because we love The Beatles, and because we want to make The Encyclopedia a better place. Let's plesae keep that in mind. Some of the recent exchanges aren't quite demonstrating the level of collegiality that I think will serve us best. ++ Lar: t/ c 20:49, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Please add to this list to clarify this problem, and so that we can finally have a POLICY:
ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 17:21, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Note that if the band were the The, it would be the same: I like the The, I like the The's music, I like the music of the The, many The songs are ballads, many of the The's songs are ballads, many songs by the The are ballads, etc. -- Lukobe 22:30, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Oh bugger, are we now talking about apostrophes? ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 14:37, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I've re-read the whole debate, going back forever ago. Now that the trademark argument has been thoroughly discounted (or if not, then Ringo and John (and sometimes Paul) are in big trouble with someone (I'm thinking of their web sites)), I think I see only two "arguments" for capital t: (1) some writers out there have used it and (2) some people just have a visceral reaction that it's "right." Is there more to it than that? Maybe I've missed something. If not, these hardly seem like a compelling pile of reasons to go with Big T, especially since so much has been said for Little T. McTavidge 06:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Sod it, let's have a vote from all the members, and if it comes down one or the other, I will abide by the policy. Democracy is a must. (When I say a vote, I mean a simple yes or no, and not an explanation... :) Can we agree on that?
ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 14:34, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Good, so it's no vote. Fine by me, but could someone explain how FA articles are rated? I know the words are different, but Support and Oppose seem like voting to me. If 25 editors say no, and 10 say yes, then who gets concensus and policy? We are discussing the use of one single word here, and not a full-blown theory of something. ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 15:58, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
OK, I've read it. Straw Poll or a Survey then? (Without committing ourselves to anything solid, BTW... :)) ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 16:24, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I have created a section at the top of my discussion page for evidence and citations for The Beatles. Please add to it when you have a fact, as it will be presented as a complete statement on the The Beatles' Policy talk page (but will not be presented as a vote, a straw poll, a survey, or anything at all that is binding - honest :) ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 17:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
"It is still usually up to a smaller group of people who decide which arguments have carried the day"... What does that mean? (as if I did not know).
I am seriously 'effed off about this. I will finish Mal Evans and get it to GA, and then seriously consider my position (which I don't have, because I'm not a part of the hierarchy, who do not reveal their positions.) ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 14:55, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
-- Lukobe 18:16, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
It's been about a week since I last suggested that the documented, verifiable support for Little T is significantly greater than that for Big T. I still don't see any documented support for Big T. The only new thing I've seen is a reference to a discussion in the Chambers Concise Dictionary on capitalization (on Andreasegde's talk page), but it's hard to tell from the summary on Andreasegde's talk page whether the definite article is intended (by Chambers) to be part of what's capitalized. Moreover, another Chambers text actually uses Little T in its article on the Beatles, so the first Chambers reference (such as it is) is canceled out by the second one. See [ [19]]. So, I'm still not seeing any verifiable source for Big T. Am I misreading the situation? McTavidge 04:54, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
BTW, There's a perfect example of misuse in the above post: "who edit Beatles related articles." - No, "articles related to The Beatles." Vera, Chuck & Dave
Don't believe (in your wildest dreams) that this problem has been finished, and put to bed. It will continue for forever and ever, by many other editors. Have fun... andreasegde 22:38, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I am (having fun). McTavidge 02:54, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
A Hard Day's Night is the third album by "the" Beatles.? A Hard Day's Night - Studio album by "the" Beatles.? You certainly are having fun! Take a dekko at Out of Our Heads, Music from Big Pink, Who's Next, Kinda Kinks, Puzzle People, Animalisms, Stop! Stop! Stop!, Cut the Crap - get my drift Vera, Chuck & Dave 23:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Still having fun. And, incidentally, got the drift. They do look strange, don't they? McTavidge 02:08, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
ALOL! Vera, Chuck & Dave 13:18, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Har! (When is talk like a pirate day, anyway?) McTavidge 16:32, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Everyday in this loony bin pal! Vera, Chuck & Dave 17:22, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
There is a serious problem on the Brian Epstein page that needs to be looked at by other editors. I politely request other editors to take a look at the article and the talk page to decide whether the article is defamatory to Epstein, and whether there is too much in it about his sexuality. andreasegde 18:15, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
andreasegde 16:06, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't care very much about The/the, but I think it's total BS that a subset of the group makes a decision and calls it concensus without involving the other side. This whole thing makes me wonder if I am wasting my time here. It's NOT IMPORTANT. We have a policy on it and people should follow it. If they don't like the policy, there are methods to change it, but until it changes via the process for doing so, it should be done per policy. Now people are editing articles and using their own approach rather than the policy. I like all you guys, at least via what you write in articles and talk pages, but I really disagree with this. F*** "The/the" and all the rest. John Cardinal 17:06, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Despite myself, I actually care about this stupid issue, but apart from that, I agree completely with John Cardinal. The so-called consensus of a subset doesn't begin to cut it. As to the substance of what's being suggested, it's subject to the same test of external, citable verifiability as the whole discussion. As noted previously, the only citations to authority given so far support Little T in all instances. I've never seen, anywhere, in any context (and I've read a lot of style manuals over a long period of time), any support for the distinction the subset is making, apparently out of thin air. McTavidge 17:24, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
So what you're saying is: "And Don't Forget To Breathe", is an album by "a" Static Lullaby, and not an album by A Static Lullaby? Yes? Vera, Chuck & Dave 17:57, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Andreasegde makes the following statements:
This is silly and verges on being petulant. You can't just decide to change the policy -- you haven't even presented the ideas for debate!
"Correct" according to whom? You know this how? It looks like you reasoned your way to it -- which is great -- but I've yet to run across your style manual in a book store or library. And as to raising standards, you act as if you have a monopoly on "standards" -- as if that wasn't the same motivation behind Lukobe's and others' arguments for Little T.
And I really hope LessHeard and Lukobe don't leave for good over this stupid thing, although I can't say I blame them. I almost there myself. McTavidge 04:17, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
This is a nifty project, about a Fabulous Four, and I'd hate to see anything drive a wedge between the participants. Certainly nothing as unimportant as the The/the thing... let's keep working together, use consensus and keep our perspective. Thanks to everyone for all your hard work so far! ++ Lar: t/ c 23:25, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, that set the cat amongst the pigeons, didn't it? andreasegde 12:44, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
To answer Lukobe's comment: Lennon and McCartney were the Beatles that recorded the Ballad of John and Yoko, and if you don't believe that, you should buy a book (ANY book at all, or Anytime At All)... andreasegde 01:11, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not a copy editor, nor am I a member of this "project". However I do have a long history with the Beatles and the music that they made together.
Andreasegde has made NO citable arguements for his position. Over the time that I have looked on during this debate he has simply stated his opinion over and over again. No verifiable source has been credited. There is no doubt in my mind thus far that "the" is the correct way to go. No real sources for "The" have been put forward... even the trademark registration page was inconclusive as it did not put forth a standard within the same document. In such a case the standard article (ie: a, the, etc) style should probably be used.
Because I can argue that a dog has fur, and a cat has fur, therefore they are the same type of animal does not make it so. I may want some sort of reference to PROVE this to anyone else... that is all that anyone wants in this matter, proof. This is really silly! 66.90.162.101 01:42, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
AND WHO ARE YOU? (Mr. Not-Signed-in....) I quote: "the standard article (ie: a, the, etc) style should probably..." Oh, dear - do I need to say more? Have you a had a Drive-in McDonalds lately? Make up your mind... andreasegde 01:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
What does that mean? can't one edit the encyclopedia that anyone can edit without prior authorization? I'm just putting in my two cents, no insults intended. Visually "The Beatles" makes more sense to me, but according to the citations that I've seen here, "the Beatles" seems to be better supported. If there is a great backing for "The" I'd "probably" like it better. 66.90.162.101 01:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I thank you, because you are a true user of English, and you reply instinctively. Please join The Beatles project, and get a user name (which can be funny if you want). andreasegde 02:05, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
So as a new comer, where would I look for references to support the "The" in this case? I'm sure if we get those out there many others would flock to support this "The". I don't think that I'll join, or get a user name though... thanks any way... don't care for the McDonalds drive-in thing, seems quite antagonistic and not very helpful to the process... and thanks for italicising my text (I think...) 66.90.162.101 02:15, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Capitalise Proper Names, Place Names and Words used as Names,
Old Father Thames, The Windy City, The Grim Reaper, The Who, The Beatles etc. Vera, Chuck & Dave 13:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I recall running across what you're pointing to a while back on the internet somewhere. Could you give us the link to the page where this is discussed? Thanks. I can't find the entry again. McTavidge 03:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Alright Macca? Now, it was posted at "Chambers Online" but I can't find it now! I'll have a hunt 'round for it again a little later on - surely they wouldn't have taken it down??? Cheers, Vera, Chuck & Dave 11:38, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Oops, thought I was in the "sandBox". Bone in thigh 22:36, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I started reading this discussion because I thought the topic was interesting, and had no view one way or the other. Rather, I was looking to learn. After wading through it all I must say I am persuaded by the lowercase camp. While I see the logic in the capital camp, the numerous citations from style guides that go into detail about context and give examples are compelling. The only citations I see for capital are simple rules for titles that don't address the context of the middle of a sentence. -- LowRise 09:03, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Hey, I don't mean to re-ignite this obviously long-debated issue, but I am new to this. I feel the policy is too broad. I think "T" and "t" are valid in different circumstances, as shown under the heading "The the - yes folks, it's here again". It cannot be a ruling on always "T" or "t". This link vaguely addresses it, I am getting an additional opinion by a High School English Coordinator. Bare in mind, the main Beatles article references The Ed Sullivan Show mid-sentence and Meet The Beatles; these use capital 'T's. Stu 11:21, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
The Beatles' project has a policy, but why do we need a specific policy that only relates to this project and not to Wikipedia as a whole? As that is the case, why would it not be possible to start a project called "The uppercase definite article Beatles project" and create its own policy? (We all know what that would be, don't we?) This project is closing its eyes to what is happening elsewhere and is being dictatorial.
I would suggest looking at The Office, The Who, The Band, The Libertines, The Independent, The Observer, The Lancet, The The, and The Cure, which all use the uppercase definite article throughout their articles. Do they have projects that have a policy? I wonder what their policy is. Does this project's policy wish to disagree with all of them? andreasegde 16:08, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
As I am not a member of The Beatles' project, I see no reason to abide by its policy rules, as it does not represent Wikipedia as a whole, but insists on enforcing its own self-determined policy on contributors. I truly believe that this is dictatorial, and does not have anything to do with the true purpose of Wikipedia. The Beatles' project is a break-away group, and should be reminded of what Wikipedia really is. andreasegde 18:03, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
What we had here was basically a set of style guidelines. Two of them - British English and citations - were uncontroversial, and have been moved to the main project page as guidelines rather than policy. The other - the/The - was of course very controversial; so controversial that continuing to debate it is a waste of time.
I consider this page to have been a failed experiment and have blanked it. I hope nobody will revert me, and that the departure of this page will see valuable contributors return and allow us to get on with the serious business of improving Wikipedia's coverage of the most important band in the history of popular music. -- kingboyk 12:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I went on vacation and some things came up in real life, and the next thing I know (last night) we don't have a policy. Apart from the comments above ("A serious question" and "A statement"), was there any recent discussion that's been blanked or is otherwise archived? McTavidge 23:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I did some very long-overdue cleanup to normalize this page with current policy and procedures. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 15:48, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
I'm moving this to the talk page:
At some point we will need advice on songs. It is proposed that we have basic advice along the lines of:
- All Beatles songs from studio albums and singles are probably notable (i.e., the subject of serious coverage in multiple, independent reliable sources), but the WikiProject exercises discretion, and will merge an article on a song to that of the album or single on which it was first released, when the song itself cannot be turned into a serious, interesting encyclopedia article.
(This was after some attempted cleanup on it, before realizing it was futile. The original as of an hour ago dated to 2006, and read "At some point we will need a policy on songs. I would propose that we have a basic Project policy along the lines of: All Beatles songs are considered notable, but the Project chooses to exercise discretion and to merge articles on songs which cannot be turned into serious, interesting encyclopedia articles. kingboyk 19:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)".)
A WikiProject can't set it's own "policy" on something like this (not just declaring things notable by fiat, but even making up merge rules), so this decade-old draft advice simply isn't viable. Merges are most often handled at the community level (e.g. at WP:AFD and in WP:RFCs), and any editor may start an article on anything, whether a wikiproject claiming "scope" over it agrees or not, if they have sufficient sources to do so. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 15:48, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
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This page was nominated for deletion on 25 April 2007. The result of the discussion was Mark {{ historical}}, Please do not edit or modify suggest rewrite as a guideline. |
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Should we now consider either splitting the ongoing t/T debate into its own page, or archiving the remainder. I would prefer splitting as I think policy discussion should be kept in the open and be available for further discussion, however the current matter does seem to be taking up most of the space. Er... if there is consensus would somebody kindly do the deed (I'm only here for the bunfights, don'cha know?) LessHeard vanU 22:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Just a note: I don't believe the British have really decided on -ize versus -ise. There is apparently a movement afoot among certain British publications to revert to -ize, apparently on the theory that it more accurately reflects the Greek origine of the suffix. For a more learned discussion, please see http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ise1.htm. McTavidge 04:31, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
We just seem to have went through a revert cycle over -ize/-ise spelling... Maybe the talk page should carry a notice at the top that this article uses UK spelling rather than US to avoid that? ++ Lar: t/ c 16:48, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
The idea was mooted at Talk:The Beatles of adding a bit to this template to indicate that Beatles articles should be written in British English. Opinions? - GTBacchus( talk) 02:22, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
<-- I think it's too small, but I'm sick of my own voice so let's wait until User:GTBacchus comes back or someone else shows up with an opinion. -- kingboyk 04:00, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm personally wondering about the need to include this at all. I'm pretty sure the guidelines (or is it policy) are that all articles should be in what is termed 'British English' by default, unless the subject of the article is based in a country which speaks a different dialect of English. I think it might be best to simply state that the articles in question are part of the project, and re-enforce the policy on the main project page (along with the note on categories). Has there been much trouble regarding dialects? -- Mal 05:17, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
"National Varieties of English" and here Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(spelling) ... so I wasn't quite right, but close. ++Lar
Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#National_varieties_of_English -- kingboyk 06:47, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Afterthought: if people are determined that some note about English usages should be mentioned in the template, then how about a simple note saying "For editing guidelines see pageX" where pageX contains the editing guidelines for this project (and the page is obviously wiki'ed). -- Mal 05:20, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I see. OK - in that case I still think the suggestion I made in my afterthought makes sense. -- Mal 05:53, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Any exceptions can be discussed here. -- kingboyk 19:57, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I was under the impression that within a sentence, the the in front of a group name does not need to be capitalized. You wouldn't write "I really like The Beatles" just as you wouldn't write "I really like The Dallas Cowboys." This needs to be fixed in the article. — simpatico hi 19:10, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Okay, what's important here would be consistency within Wikipedia, so I would suggest whatever the choice, we might suggest the Wikipedia policy pages be updated to suggest that choice. Either way doesn't detract from my understanding of the topic, so I'm not really concerned either way.
But, I did some homework. I have a copy of The Chicago Manual of Style (14th Edition). Chapter 7.2:
And in almost all non-first-word-in-the-sentence examples they have lower case on the, including the Crown, the Sun King, etc. There are various group names (the Congress of the United States, etc.) but nothing in the specific category of something like a pop band. But under 7.135 (part of Books and periodicals), we have (after discussing dropping a title's initial article entirely when it made the sentence awkward):
So this very American style book leans toward the Beatles, but with an opening for The Beatles.
As they are an English band, however, I would want to see the English style book (is there one?) checked as it looks like we Yanks are a bit shyer about the capitals.
In the same vein, we might want to double check the same references at The English Amazon Site to see if they English editions capitalize differently (I checked one - they had the Beatles). John (Jwy) 06:56, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Lion King, blame this guy.-- jfg284 you were saying? 17:14, 25 January 2006 :You blame him. Lion King
The Beatles Anthology book refers to them as "The Beatles" throughout, but
Hunter Davies' biography (the 1981 edition) uses "the Beatles". I also recently got
a book about
The Verve (or the Verve, if you prefer) from the library, which capitalises all the thes in band names.
Personally I tend to use a lower-case "the" in band names and in the middle of titles, but a capital letter at the start of titles. For example, "I recently read the book The Lord of the Rings", not the Lord of the Rings, the Lord of the Rings or The Lord Of The Rings. I'd say, "I really like the Beatles' albums The Beatles and With the Beatles." Actually, I'd refer to the first one as The White Album, but you get the point. :)
I've also somehow got it into my head that in song titles, every letter should be capitalised: "Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds".
I don't know what to think now. :) -- Nick R Talk 12:42, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm not an English major, so this is purely opinion, but...The way I see it, "The Beatles" should be used whenever you are referring to the group as a whole, and when they're being specifically addressed. For example, "I really like The Beatles", or "Among the influential bands of the 60's were The Beatles." However, I also think "Beatles" may be considered a word on its own, used to describe individual members ("George was a Beatle") and things that are related to The Beatles ("I have several Beatles records"). And you know how we say things like "Beatles-esque", and not "The Beatles-esque"? Also, I think that although "the Beatles" could be used in certain situations it should be used sparingly...Eg. "Paul McCartney was one of the Beatles" or "Paul McCartney was one of The Beatles"...The first example seems to refer to Beatles as in each individual member, and Paul being among those members, so it seems to make sense. The second applies Paul as being part of The Beatles taken as a whole. It seems to make sense as well. But the only reason I would lean to capitalizing "The" is for consistency. What do you think? Stapler 9 42
"The "t" in "the" does not need to be capitalized. I encourage you to look at an style dictionary or article/essay/book on the Beatles" - well that told me, didn't it?! [2] So, anyway, we ought to standardise on one or the other - "The Beatles" or "the Beatles"? I think he's wrong, as policy actually lists "The Beatles" - Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(definite_and_indefinite_articles_at_beginning_of_name)#Names_of_bands_and_groups -- kingboyk 17:09, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Listen, you whinging poms, don't pin this kerfluffle on UK/US differences, ok? I'm all in favor of "The" rather than "the"... That said, Carlo says above: "It is standard practice when determining usage to allow those whose logo it is to make such determinations (e.g., Barneys New York has no apostrophe or comma...)" WP does not do things that way, because if it did, you'd find the main LEGO article at LEGO instead of that page being a redirect to Lego. THAT said, I agree with Steve/Kingboyk, let this discussion run its course, and then add the outcome to project policy, just like we did on British/US English spelling variation (we chose British for obvious reasons), and let the greater WP rage on as it likes. ++ Lar: t/ c 13:38, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Alright, I think consensus is clear, it's "The Beatles", so let's make it Project policy. Can I just ask (and apologies in advance for being a pain in the arse), but are there any exceptions (e.g. "each of the Beatles")? I'll probably do an AWB run sometime to bring consistency to the articles so I need to know if I should change every instance of "the Beatles" or whether some discretion is required. -- kingboyk 21:20, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I am not ready to draft the policy text yet because, not being a grammatician, I can't clearly articulate the rule for the exceptions. But I am SURE there are some out there. I think they, or some of them, revolve around possessives, as I alluded to in the thread above. I would on the other hand be comfortable with a statement of "no exceptions unless someone presents a case for the exception that's clearly articulated and which is a rule that can be applied consistently" or something like that... ++ Lar: t/ c 19:49, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I think I may have something. I started an AWB run yesterday, and "The Beatles" looked bad in quite a few places so I gave up for the evening. I thought of the following example as a possible exception when I was in bed last night:
Would it not be the case, then, that it's "The Beatles" when referring to the name of the group as a proper noun, but not when it is used to indicate four (or even two or more) individuals who are Beatles? This might also extend to the possessive. Comments? -- kingboyk 17:26, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I'd still like to see what a British style manual (comparable to Chicago in the U.S.) has to say about the matter. -- Lukobe 03:43, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
After racking my brains, the only scenario I could come up with is if a non-UK, variant English speaking culture, editor contributed a Beatles specific article relating to that country. For example, if a US editor was to produce an article called "John Lennon's New York" then it would follow that naming and grammer conventions would follow the native grammer style - especially in that the article is as much about NY as it is Lennon. LessHeard vanU 12:35, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
The US editor responded by commenting that not only did he consider that "the" should be capitalised as per UK English, but that it would be true for some proper nouns in US English. Whilst he demurs that he is a grammarian, I think we can now proceed on the basis that the case for capitalisation is proven. Lukobe, whilst there indeed may be reference books supporting your contentions, I think this discourse has now been exhausted. If you feel you can contribute to The Beatle articles under the existing grammatical policy, your help would be welcome. LessHeard vanU 00:28, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Maybe I missed where this was discussed, but from the band's album covers, it's not obvious to me that they considered the word "The" an essential part of their name. Note that the cover of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, an album to which a great deal of attention was paid to the production of the cover, shows the band name as "BEATLES" instead of "THE BEATLES". The word "The" was similarly omitted from the front cover of Beatles for Sale and Magical Mystery Tour. Obviously, several of the band's albums do refer to them as The Beatles as opposed to just Beatles (and other album covers do not display the band name at all on the front), but this just suggests to me that the band considered the word "The" in their name to be optional. -- Metropolitan90 05:07, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
IMHO... this whole non-issue ("the" vs. "The") is a bunch of damned hairsplitting, and I notice that while a few folks fastidiously change "the" to "The" when the word "Beatles" follows, REGARDLESS OF THE CONTEXT OR HOW MANY TIMES THE NAME HAS ALREADY BEEN MENTIONED AND/OR CAPITALISED, this is not done with any other bands; not even within the same article. This is time- and space-wasting... not to mention a bit hypocritical. Zephyrad 23:19, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
One can write: "Chuck us "the" jam, I want to make a buttie", but not: "I think "the" Jam are a rubbish band". It's their NAME and "The" needs to be capitalised wherever and whenever it appears in a sentence - I was taught that shortly after we'd stopped writing with crayons! Vera, Chuck & Dave 13:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I never wrote with crayons... I coloured with mine, and wrote with a pen, or pencil as needed. And you still haven't answered my point: While I see where you and others have gone around to site after site to implement this Non-Issue with the "The" thing... none of you with this same wild hair are capitalising the T for ANY OTHER BANDS, even within the SAME ARTICLE (eg. " The Remo Four"). So, are we to believe the Beatles are the ONLY band who should get this alleged "show of appreciation"? Sounds like hypocrisy to me. Zephyrad 22:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Are we all still going on about this? Or are you lot just taking the piss out of each other? It's the longest discussion in the whole project about the very smallest thing. :). I think next month we should nominate it for "running project joke of the month"... + + Lar: t/ c 22:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
So, did someone ask for an expert in British English? I was a proofreader who worked to Hart’s Rules, have had 19 years in publishing and editing, and I have to agree with my American colleague above, plus the half-dozen books that Simpatico claims she has in her possession. I can’t believe this was such a long thread and how the capitalization proponents were so stubborn, coming up with weak arguments with little place in English usage, in my opinion.
The perfect example is the United States: you always use it with the definite article, yet it is never capitalized mid-sentence. One of the few exceptions that come to mind is The Hague. Lukobe, you asked for an equivalent of Chicago above: Hart’s Rules, at least the edition I have, is unclear on this particular matter.
Hart’s does discuss one matter, addressed to those citing titles such as those of newspapers and magazines. If the definite article is attributable to the rest of the title, then it is capitalized (and italicized). But at the same time, musical groups do not tend to be considered ‘works’ in the same context, according to most house styles and authorities. So if one is to adopt a British standard, and Hart’s is very well regarded in the UK, then it suggests there is no difference between the US and the UK on this issue.
And if the copy editors who worked on the books Simpatico cites are wrong, and if the Amazon.com editor with the master’s degree is wrong, and if I am wrong (and I have a master’s, too), then why even seek the opinions of professionals here? Among professionals, it does appear the lowercase usage outnumbers the capitalized ones; it is only among amateurs that the professional usage is slammed! Thus, we have reached, above, a conclusion that is at complete odds with what most publishing houses would adopt.
So let the pros be wrong. In which case, Ringo Starr’s site, which uses the lowercase
[4] must also be wrong. George doesn’t seem to mention it. John Lennon’s people must be wrong on their official site.
[5] Brian Epstein’s site is wrong.
[6] Only Paul McCartney capitalizes.
[7] So perhaps Paul is right, and Ringo, John (and Yoko) and Brian are wrong?
On that logic, The Times’
[8] proofreaders and subeditors must also be wrong. As are The Independent
[9], The Guardian
[10], The Daily Telegraph
[11] and even The Sun.
[12] All British newspapers are wrong.
Someone mentioned that the quotations on the Beatles’ official site used lowercase—since these are cited from a professionally edited publication, doesn’t that tell you something? But even those pages not from Derek Taylor’s book there appear to be all lowercase, at least on the pages I see. So the Beatles’ official site is wrong.
I know I will get plenty of criticism from those who have never set foot inside the publishing industry. Fine. Criticize the professionals, but note how your beloved Beatles themselves have used it on their sites, with the exception of Sir Paul. (Or, will Lion King now tell me that John’s, Ringo’s, Brian’s and the Beatles’ sites do not count?)—
Jack Yan 12:27, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
The Chicago Manual of Style has an online Q&A forum in which this question has been asked and answered (the editors go for "the") (see http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/CMS_FAQ/CapitalizationTitles/CapitalizationTitles34.html). The example given there of the band "the The" shows the odd result that can come from capitalizing the article in this context. My sense is that there has been an increase, over time, in the article's capitalization, and I associate it in particular with the efforts by Apple to protect and strengthen the Beatle brand. An aspect of this effort seems to be a conscious campaign to project a consistent brand image using the stylized "The Beatles" logo borrowed from Ringo's bass drum. I first noticed this around the time of the Anthology project, and Apple seems to have been fairly consistent in its use of this logo since then. Apple also seems to have been pretty consistent in capitalizing the article in ordinary text as well since that time. I view this tendency on Apple's part -- i.e., to capitalize the article in ordinary text -- as Apple simply promoting consistency in the presentation of the brand. I think, moreover, that this has influenced a newer generation of Beatles writers, who I suspect see in the Apple usage an authoritative arbiter. My concern, however, is that what we're really seeing here is merely "brand management" on Apple's part. If Apple wants to manage the brand, that's fine, but it's their business, not ours -- we're not bound by their stylistic choices. McTavidge 05:22, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I have no strong feelings about the question itself but I DO have some strong feelings about the way this convo has unfolded. I'd rather we all try our best to remain collegial, if possible. Some of us have some strides to make in that regard, I think, and hopefully that's all that's needed to get things back on track. Really, this isn't worth getting mean about, is it? Thanks. ++ Lar: t/ c 22:25, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
So, where are we? Again, looks to me as if the only citations to authority have supported lowercase "t." What's the process for calling it? Thanks. McTavidge 03:27, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
As requested in Newsletter 9 and commented in Newsletter 10 there has been no authorities given for keeping the capitalisation of the letter t of the in "the Beatles". The authorities for lower case are The Times and The Guardian, which cover the range of British English use.
I will now proceed to put in motion the adoption of lower case use as Project Policy. If someone can develop a bot or other means to do this task then please do so! LessHeard vanU 22:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I think I found the citation which trumps everything at [13] Steelbeard1 03:46, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
So far I think we have two style policies, right:
What other areas need (or already have) policy?
++ Lar: t/ c 21:40, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I think there are too many individual references to "Paul", "John", and "Ringo" (but not so many to poor old "George"). I am not certain of Wiki format, but I feel that the band members should individually be initially referred to by their full name (first and surname) or surname only, and only then be referred by their first name** within the same article, section etc. This would appear to be more formal, thus better for an encyclopedia. Obvious exceptions would be "John, Paul, George and Ringo" and "John and Yoko", since these appelations are already well known. Perhaps we had best have a concensus before agreeing (or not) to this naming policy? LessHeard vanU 21:50, 12 April 2006 (UTC) **Just to be clear, did you actually mean "surname" there? Cos if you didn't, I'm not agreeing with you I'm taking the opposite sides :) If we refer to our subjects by their first names it's like we're mates with them; whereas the tone we should strive for is that of the neutral chronicler (alright, with a bit of fan enthusiasm perhaps :)) -- kingboyk 17:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I'm rather tired of seeing "Sir" in front of Paul's name. I don't know what it adds to the discussion to be constantly reminded that he was knighted. Moreover, we didn't call him "Mr." McCartney pre-knighthood; why should we start in with the titles now? Besides, it strikes me as contrary to the Beatles' basically egalitarian perspective to point out his elevated "rank." McTavidge 05:33, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Obviously the first question is "do we even need a policy regarding female editors?", possibly followed by "why is this question being asked?". I thought about this before proposing the heading, and my simple answer is that I feel we need some female NPOV in the articles. I am aware that NPOV is by defination gender indifferent, but I think that some articles fall within the NPOV criteria yet are orientated toward a male perspective of "relevance"/"importance". All I am suggesting is that the Project policy makes clear that contributions from either gender are welcome, which in itself may make the Project more attractive to female (would be) editors. The subject matter of the Project profoundly influenced, and was influenced by, the female experience during and after its lifespan - it may be good to get some of that perspective within the articles.
I have carefully thought about bringing this up - so if your response is scorn or bewilderment please don't hesitate to respond accordingly. I would rather this point be debated and rejected now than to have reason to wish it had been aired previously at some later date. LessHeard vanU 21:20, 24 May 2006 (UTC) (male - if that matters)
I don't think we need a policy per se. But maybe some offsides encouragment?... if you know some, ask them to put their hand in when you are talking to them informally. I'm sure our articles have systemic bias as do many. Technophilic, white, male, western culture centric, etc. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias. As for TV, we have 4 in our house but I never watch them except if I'm eating. WP is where it is at. Er, wait, I WASN'T supposed to respond? Oops. + + Lar: t/ c 22:32, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Although that page is itself tagged as "a guideline only and not policy" should we be following the guidance there? Or are we happy that we have had enough community discussion and review to have our Project's policies stick? (I personally think the above threads answer my question in the affirmative, but "policy wonks" (copyright Lar) might not agree with me). Comments? -- kingboyk 12:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I was going to step away from this, since I was only going by the rules and I didn't want to get into a big dispute (especially with editors who I respect and have enjoyed working with), but recent events have brought me back.
The debate about naming the convention regarding the capitalisation or not of the letter "t" of the in t/The Beatles has been going on for a while. I have endured the snide remarks of a Twit, and have engaged in civil debate with some others who continued to question Project policy regarding the issue. I pointed out the need to establish a reasonable argument for their viewpoint over and above that of some professional knowledge so there could be a debate. When they did provide reasonable grounds for reopening the debate I used the offices of the Beatles Newsletter Issue 9:Issue of the Month to request comment, debate on the matter. There was no response. In the next Newsletter Issue 10:Issue of last Month I commented that there had been no response, and that the Project policy would be altered to use of the lowercase. Again, nobody other than the proponents responded. After a brief while I did as I said I would, and amended the Policy.
The new Policy is not to the liking of some of the editors involved the the Beatles Project (as the previous one was not to others.) After the policy was implemented reasons and arguments for retaining the previous convention were given. Authorities were cited and some discussion was created. Very recently more than one editor has edited Beatles related articles specifically to reflect the previous policy.
My preference is to capitalise the letter t of the in the Beatles.
Wikipedia has very few rules; two of the most important relate to consensus and verifiability.
Wikipedia:WikiProject The Beatles has a specific area for the implementation (following debate and consensus) of Policy. The associate talkpage records the debate and the arguments used in reaching Policy decisions. The Project also maintains the principle of abiding by the rules that have been agreed, and the fundemental Wikipedia ethos of consensus.
No recent discussion occurred when the matter of the use of lowercase or uppercase was notified in two Newsletters, other than between myself and the proponets of lowercase at the Policy talkpage. Since Policy implementation discussion has only occurred on the talkpages of concerned editors, or on the talkpages of some of the articles, and not at the Policy talkpage.
More than one editor has unilaterally decided to ignore the new Policy, going so far as to amend articles to reflect the previous convention.
The Beatles Project is being disrupted by editors who I personally know to be conscientious and dedicated contributors of long and good standing. In that there is now occurring what might be considered vandalism (the knowing altering of articles in a manner that is against Wikipedian and Project rules and policy), likely as a result of their strongly held views, I believe that this matter needs urgent addressing. I am copying this to the Policy talkpage, and to all the editors involved in formulating the new policy and the recent opponents. I suggest that this debate is taken there, and that this matter is decided in a civil manner in accordance with the principles of Wikipedia.
I am deeply saddened that it has come to this. I am depressed that editors (people) whose integrity and civility (not to say sheer fun) I had been proud to be associated with have acted in (what I see as)
bad faith and flagrant disregard for the rules and guidelines of both Wikipedia and The Beatles Project.
LessHeard vanU 23:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree -- it really is too bad that things have taken this turn. It didn't have to go this way. It's actually embarrassing at this point. McTavidge 01:07, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
There is no rush to change the to The or vice versa. Let's try to come to a general consensus and then change stuff. I think that would really be for the best. Let's also try not to get into too much arguments over this. It's a relatively minor point really, and there is no need for snippy commentary or hard feelings. This is a wiki. Policy changes. Further, because it's a wiki we have time to get things right, there is no rush. Let's go slow, talk collegially and figure out what to do. ++ Lar: t/ c 17:14, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your new comments on the "The/the" dispute. Strong legal citations have emerged which indicate that "The Beatles" should be used as it is a registered trademark. Check out this discussion [14] which includes a link to the UK Patent Office which proves that "The Beatles" as well as "Beatles" are registered trade marks of Apple Corps Ltd. The actual link is at [15]. So does legal reasons trump grammatical reasons? Steelbeard1 03:34, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Now that was refreshing, Steelbeard1 -- in your last sentence above, you actually asked the question that matters (i.e., whether "legal reasons trump grammatical reasons") rather than assuming the answer and proceeding from there. McTavidge 04:57, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Incidentally, the citation you give to the UK Patent Office's record of the Beatles TM filing doesn't show what you purport that it shows. It shows the following: THE BEATLES, BEATLES, Beatles [DRUM LOGO], The Beatles [DRUM LOGO]. You could just as readily argue from this that the intent was to get trademark protection for THE BEATLES and that we therefore should always put it in all caps. McTavidge 05:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
So this is where you're all hanging out... I didn't know it was here until I stumbled on it by accident—I'm usually too busy to go window shopping.
Well, it seems as if Vera and I have been singled out as nothing short of "definite article" vandals for our stance, when we have cited our position. To create all this hullaballoo over an 'article' is taking the word pedantic to new extremes. Can we take a step back and look at this in the cold light of day? To wit:
We are ignoring the servicing of the car because we disagree about whether 'The' indicator light is faulty or not. There may be a concensus (between how many editors exactly?) but this problem/discussion will keep reappearing forever and ever, and there will definitely be no "Amen". Call us eccentric, stubborn, stupid, blind or dumb, but never call us vandals. andreasegde 14:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
P.S. We have already been called (supposed) vandals, and have seen that "Maybe an RFC needs to be filed against such editors". I am totally shocked at such a knee-jerk reaction. BTW, Vera and I are pushing the boundaries, because Paul, Freddie, Mimi, Julia and Neil have all gone from B to GA status, and " that band from Liverpool" are still GA. We are being chastised because of ONE SINGLE LETTER of the alphabet being changed from lower case to upper case. If you don't find that ridiculous, then I do. I think "that band from Liverpool's" project is in serious danger of collapsing in on itself amid petty bickering. andreasegde 14:46, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Trademark law doesn't turn on such things as capital letters and even (sometimes) spelling. If someone were to use, for instance, "the beatles" (all lowercase) or even "the beetles" (spelled differently and all lowercase) in commerce, that person would likely be infringing on the trademark, even though the infringing uses don't match any filed examples. This is so because the general test for trademark infringement is whether someone is using another's mark in a confusingly similar way, regardless of capitalization or, in certain cases (e.g., soundalikes) spelling. To say that the trademark is "The Beatles" (and, presumably, not "the Beatles") would necessarily imply that use of "the Beatles" wouldn't be an infringement of the mark, when clearly it must be. (What good would a trademark law be if it didn't protect against silly distinctions like these? You would see marks like "Zerox" and "Foard" and "Toiota," and Xerox, Ford, and Toyota would have no legal recourse to stop these confusingly similar marks.) Therefore, the choice of a capital "t" in the trademark filing is arbitrary and legally insignificant. Since it has no legal significance, it can't even begin to have any significance for English usage. McTavidge 17:44, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I found a great example. There was a band in the 80s called The The. Now, what do we do with that, I ask? andreasegde 23:42, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Why has no-one answered this question? andreasegde 14:37, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
OK, time to review a little.
Books and articles -- There's clearly a divergence of views among those writing books and articles about the Beatles. Some capitalize, some don't. That's not a promising avenue of argument for either view.
Trademark -- Although it hasn't been articulated particularly clearly, the trademark-filing-based argument for capitalization seems to go something like this: The trademark filing shows an instance of capitalization. Therefore, this is "proof" that capitalization is "correct" and furthermore that any nonconforming usage is an infringement. Have I correctly summarized the argument? If not, let me know where I've strayed. I'd like to make sure I understand.
It would be helpful if one of the uppercase supporters would summarize my argument, just so we can be sure we're all really understanding each other.
Incidentally, I was away from this for about five hours today and in the interim someone posted anonymously a message about passing off an article (meaning the Beatles-related Wikipedia articles) as being about the Beatles, except that the "the" was capitalized in his or her comment. It was intended as a retort to me and as a gotcha (I was discussing the trademark law concept of passing off). This was interesting not only because it showed that the anonymous poster didn't really understand anything about trademark law and didn't seem to care that his comment betrayed his ignorance but also because Andreasegde incorrectly assumed I had posted the goofy comment and then deliriously cheered: "You did it again! You wrote "The Beatles" yourself. Game, Set, and Match." Come on -- can't this discussion be elevated above that level? Even if I had written and accidentally failed to sign the goofy comment, surely I didn't deserve the all-caps shout: "SIGN IN; DON'T JUST LEAVE A COMMENT." McTavidge 04:35, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
One more thing -- on infringement (since this keeps coming up). You can't "infringe" another's trademark (i.e., be liable for damages) unless you use the other's trademark as a trademark. See [17], the part that talks about non-trademark use. McTavidge 04:48, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
If the goofy remark thing was a mistake, I apologise, and you can have my set of The Beatles' bubble-gum cards. andreasegde 09:54, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Now, who are we (AMATEUR editors) to state that there must be a fixed policy? If anyone dares to suggest that they know more about style, or have a firmer grasp on grammar than respected professional editors and writers (who don't agree with each other) or the people at FA (Macca's review) who didn't mention 'The/the' problem AT ALL, or even the Wikipedia editors who reviewed the last five GA articles, then I suggest a visit to the clinic to sort out their ego problems. Nobody cites it as a problem, apart from here. andreasegde 10:06, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to ask everyone to be a bit more collegial and a bit less "taking bait" or "challenging" if at all possible. The goal here is to get to an agreement that we all can work with, and to avoid warring. We're all here, presumably, because we love The Beatles, and because we want to make The Encyclopedia a better place. Let's plesae keep that in mind. Some of the recent exchanges aren't quite demonstrating the level of collegiality that I think will serve us best. ++ Lar: t/ c 20:49, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Please add to this list to clarify this problem, and so that we can finally have a POLICY:
ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 17:21, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Note that if the band were the The, it would be the same: I like the The, I like the The's music, I like the music of the The, many The songs are ballads, many of the The's songs are ballads, many songs by the The are ballads, etc. -- Lukobe 22:30, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Oh bugger, are we now talking about apostrophes? ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 14:37, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I've re-read the whole debate, going back forever ago. Now that the trademark argument has been thoroughly discounted (or if not, then Ringo and John (and sometimes Paul) are in big trouble with someone (I'm thinking of their web sites)), I think I see only two "arguments" for capital t: (1) some writers out there have used it and (2) some people just have a visceral reaction that it's "right." Is there more to it than that? Maybe I've missed something. If not, these hardly seem like a compelling pile of reasons to go with Big T, especially since so much has been said for Little T. McTavidge 06:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Sod it, let's have a vote from all the members, and if it comes down one or the other, I will abide by the policy. Democracy is a must. (When I say a vote, I mean a simple yes or no, and not an explanation... :) Can we agree on that?
ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 14:34, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Good, so it's no vote. Fine by me, but could someone explain how FA articles are rated? I know the words are different, but Support and Oppose seem like voting to me. If 25 editors say no, and 10 say yes, then who gets concensus and policy? We are discussing the use of one single word here, and not a full-blown theory of something. ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 15:58, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
OK, I've read it. Straw Poll or a Survey then? (Without committing ourselves to anything solid, BTW... :)) ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 16:24, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I have created a section at the top of my discussion page for evidence and citations for The Beatles. Please add to it when you have a fact, as it will be presented as a complete statement on the The Beatles' Policy talk page (but will not be presented as a vote, a straw poll, a survey, or anything at all that is binding - honest :) ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 17:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
"It is still usually up to a smaller group of people who decide which arguments have carried the day"... What does that mean? (as if I did not know).
I am seriously 'effed off about this. I will finish Mal Evans and get it to GA, and then seriously consider my position (which I don't have, because I'm not a part of the hierarchy, who do not reveal their positions.) ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 14:55, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
-- Lukobe 18:16, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
It's been about a week since I last suggested that the documented, verifiable support for Little T is significantly greater than that for Big T. I still don't see any documented support for Big T. The only new thing I've seen is a reference to a discussion in the Chambers Concise Dictionary on capitalization (on Andreasegde's talk page), but it's hard to tell from the summary on Andreasegde's talk page whether the definite article is intended (by Chambers) to be part of what's capitalized. Moreover, another Chambers text actually uses Little T in its article on the Beatles, so the first Chambers reference (such as it is) is canceled out by the second one. See [ [19]]. So, I'm still not seeing any verifiable source for Big T. Am I misreading the situation? McTavidge 04:54, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
BTW, There's a perfect example of misuse in the above post: "who edit Beatles related articles." - No, "articles related to The Beatles." Vera, Chuck & Dave
Don't believe (in your wildest dreams) that this problem has been finished, and put to bed. It will continue for forever and ever, by many other editors. Have fun... andreasegde 22:38, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I am (having fun). McTavidge 02:54, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
A Hard Day's Night is the third album by "the" Beatles.? A Hard Day's Night - Studio album by "the" Beatles.? You certainly are having fun! Take a dekko at Out of Our Heads, Music from Big Pink, Who's Next, Kinda Kinks, Puzzle People, Animalisms, Stop! Stop! Stop!, Cut the Crap - get my drift Vera, Chuck & Dave 23:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Still having fun. And, incidentally, got the drift. They do look strange, don't they? McTavidge 02:08, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
ALOL! Vera, Chuck & Dave 13:18, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Har! (When is talk like a pirate day, anyway?) McTavidge 16:32, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Everyday in this loony bin pal! Vera, Chuck & Dave 17:22, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
There is a serious problem on the Brian Epstein page that needs to be looked at by other editors. I politely request other editors to take a look at the article and the talk page to decide whether the article is defamatory to Epstein, and whether there is too much in it about his sexuality. andreasegde 18:15, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
andreasegde 16:06, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't care very much about The/the, but I think it's total BS that a subset of the group makes a decision and calls it concensus without involving the other side. This whole thing makes me wonder if I am wasting my time here. It's NOT IMPORTANT. We have a policy on it and people should follow it. If they don't like the policy, there are methods to change it, but until it changes via the process for doing so, it should be done per policy. Now people are editing articles and using their own approach rather than the policy. I like all you guys, at least via what you write in articles and talk pages, but I really disagree with this. F*** "The/the" and all the rest. John Cardinal 17:06, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Despite myself, I actually care about this stupid issue, but apart from that, I agree completely with John Cardinal. The so-called consensus of a subset doesn't begin to cut it. As to the substance of what's being suggested, it's subject to the same test of external, citable verifiability as the whole discussion. As noted previously, the only citations to authority given so far support Little T in all instances. I've never seen, anywhere, in any context (and I've read a lot of style manuals over a long period of time), any support for the distinction the subset is making, apparently out of thin air. McTavidge 17:24, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
So what you're saying is: "And Don't Forget To Breathe", is an album by "a" Static Lullaby, and not an album by A Static Lullaby? Yes? Vera, Chuck & Dave 17:57, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Andreasegde makes the following statements:
This is silly and verges on being petulant. You can't just decide to change the policy -- you haven't even presented the ideas for debate!
"Correct" according to whom? You know this how? It looks like you reasoned your way to it -- which is great -- but I've yet to run across your style manual in a book store or library. And as to raising standards, you act as if you have a monopoly on "standards" -- as if that wasn't the same motivation behind Lukobe's and others' arguments for Little T.
And I really hope LessHeard and Lukobe don't leave for good over this stupid thing, although I can't say I blame them. I almost there myself. McTavidge 04:17, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
This is a nifty project, about a Fabulous Four, and I'd hate to see anything drive a wedge between the participants. Certainly nothing as unimportant as the The/the thing... let's keep working together, use consensus and keep our perspective. Thanks to everyone for all your hard work so far! ++ Lar: t/ c 23:25, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, that set the cat amongst the pigeons, didn't it? andreasegde 12:44, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
To answer Lukobe's comment: Lennon and McCartney were the Beatles that recorded the Ballad of John and Yoko, and if you don't believe that, you should buy a book (ANY book at all, or Anytime At All)... andreasegde 01:11, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not a copy editor, nor am I a member of this "project". However I do have a long history with the Beatles and the music that they made together.
Andreasegde has made NO citable arguements for his position. Over the time that I have looked on during this debate he has simply stated his opinion over and over again. No verifiable source has been credited. There is no doubt in my mind thus far that "the" is the correct way to go. No real sources for "The" have been put forward... even the trademark registration page was inconclusive as it did not put forth a standard within the same document. In such a case the standard article (ie: a, the, etc) style should probably be used.
Because I can argue that a dog has fur, and a cat has fur, therefore they are the same type of animal does not make it so. I may want some sort of reference to PROVE this to anyone else... that is all that anyone wants in this matter, proof. This is really silly! 66.90.162.101 01:42, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
AND WHO ARE YOU? (Mr. Not-Signed-in....) I quote: "the standard article (ie: a, the, etc) style should probably..." Oh, dear - do I need to say more? Have you a had a Drive-in McDonalds lately? Make up your mind... andreasegde 01:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
What does that mean? can't one edit the encyclopedia that anyone can edit without prior authorization? I'm just putting in my two cents, no insults intended. Visually "The Beatles" makes more sense to me, but according to the citations that I've seen here, "the Beatles" seems to be better supported. If there is a great backing for "The" I'd "probably" like it better. 66.90.162.101 01:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I thank you, because you are a true user of English, and you reply instinctively. Please join The Beatles project, and get a user name (which can be funny if you want). andreasegde 02:05, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
So as a new comer, where would I look for references to support the "The" in this case? I'm sure if we get those out there many others would flock to support this "The". I don't think that I'll join, or get a user name though... thanks any way... don't care for the McDonalds drive-in thing, seems quite antagonistic and not very helpful to the process... and thanks for italicising my text (I think...) 66.90.162.101 02:15, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Capitalise Proper Names, Place Names and Words used as Names,
Old Father Thames, The Windy City, The Grim Reaper, The Who, The Beatles etc. Vera, Chuck & Dave 13:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I recall running across what you're pointing to a while back on the internet somewhere. Could you give us the link to the page where this is discussed? Thanks. I can't find the entry again. McTavidge 03:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Alright Macca? Now, it was posted at "Chambers Online" but I can't find it now! I'll have a hunt 'round for it again a little later on - surely they wouldn't have taken it down??? Cheers, Vera, Chuck & Dave 11:38, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Oops, thought I was in the "sandBox". Bone in thigh 22:36, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I started reading this discussion because I thought the topic was interesting, and had no view one way or the other. Rather, I was looking to learn. After wading through it all I must say I am persuaded by the lowercase camp. While I see the logic in the capital camp, the numerous citations from style guides that go into detail about context and give examples are compelling. The only citations I see for capital are simple rules for titles that don't address the context of the middle of a sentence. -- LowRise 09:03, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Hey, I don't mean to re-ignite this obviously long-debated issue, but I am new to this. I feel the policy is too broad. I think "T" and "t" are valid in different circumstances, as shown under the heading "The the - yes folks, it's here again". It cannot be a ruling on always "T" or "t". This link vaguely addresses it, I am getting an additional opinion by a High School English Coordinator. Bare in mind, the main Beatles article references The Ed Sullivan Show mid-sentence and Meet The Beatles; these use capital 'T's. Stu 11:21, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
The Beatles' project has a policy, but why do we need a specific policy that only relates to this project and not to Wikipedia as a whole? As that is the case, why would it not be possible to start a project called "The uppercase definite article Beatles project" and create its own policy? (We all know what that would be, don't we?) This project is closing its eyes to what is happening elsewhere and is being dictatorial.
I would suggest looking at The Office, The Who, The Band, The Libertines, The Independent, The Observer, The Lancet, The The, and The Cure, which all use the uppercase definite article throughout their articles. Do they have projects that have a policy? I wonder what their policy is. Does this project's policy wish to disagree with all of them? andreasegde 16:08, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
As I am not a member of The Beatles' project, I see no reason to abide by its policy rules, as it does not represent Wikipedia as a whole, but insists on enforcing its own self-determined policy on contributors. I truly believe that this is dictatorial, and does not have anything to do with the true purpose of Wikipedia. The Beatles' project is a break-away group, and should be reminded of what Wikipedia really is. andreasegde 18:03, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
What we had here was basically a set of style guidelines. Two of them - British English and citations - were uncontroversial, and have been moved to the main project page as guidelines rather than policy. The other - the/The - was of course very controversial; so controversial that continuing to debate it is a waste of time.
I consider this page to have been a failed experiment and have blanked it. I hope nobody will revert me, and that the departure of this page will see valuable contributors return and allow us to get on with the serious business of improving Wikipedia's coverage of the most important band in the history of popular music. -- kingboyk 12:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I went on vacation and some things came up in real life, and the next thing I know (last night) we don't have a policy. Apart from the comments above ("A serious question" and "A statement"), was there any recent discussion that's been blanked or is otherwise archived? McTavidge 23:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I did some very long-overdue cleanup to normalize this page with current policy and procedures. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 15:48, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
I'm moving this to the talk page:
At some point we will need advice on songs. It is proposed that we have basic advice along the lines of:
- All Beatles songs from studio albums and singles are probably notable (i.e., the subject of serious coverage in multiple, independent reliable sources), but the WikiProject exercises discretion, and will merge an article on a song to that of the album or single on which it was first released, when the song itself cannot be turned into a serious, interesting encyclopedia article.
(This was after some attempted cleanup on it, before realizing it was futile. The original as of an hour ago dated to 2006, and read "At some point we will need a policy on songs. I would propose that we have a basic Project policy along the lines of: All Beatles songs are considered notable, but the Project chooses to exercise discretion and to merge articles on songs which cannot be turned into serious, interesting encyclopedia articles. kingboyk 19:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)".)
A WikiProject can't set it's own "policy" on something like this (not just declaring things notable by fiat, but even making up merge rules), so this decade-old draft advice simply isn't viable. Merges are most often handled at the community level (e.g. at WP:AFD and in WP:RFCs), and any editor may start an article on anything, whether a wikiproject claiming "scope" over it agrees or not, if they have sufficient sources to do so. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 15:48, 29 February 2016 (UTC)