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I've created a participants list page at Wikipedia:WikiProject South Africa/Politics task force/Participants. - htonl ( talk) 17:41, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
Sorry for only getting back to you all after so long, but I have been inactive on Wikipedia due to my studies. I think that their is a serious lack of work in relation to articles on the various acts by the parliament of South Africa. While I do feel that we need to try and produce information on every act passed. I do not believe that it would be best to have separate articles for each and every act as in many cases it would just result in a stub article that will never progress past that phase.
I would like to suggest that we perhaps look at making an article for each year which contains a bit of information on each act passed. Separate articles should only exist for acts that are notable enough that they a) warrant their own articles, and b) can contain more than just basic information. I would say that this would mainly be in the case of acts that make large changes to the law or obtained significant press coverage to warrant expanding information on the act beyond what would be given in the year article. We can then link the separate articles to the year article for extended reading on the act in the same way that articles link to more in-depth coverage of historical events in the History of South Africa article.
I will work on an example of this idea in a sandbox in due course so that it can be determined if you all feel that it is a workable solution to getting the information covered without cluttering Wikipedia with a hundred stumps containing a handful of sentences each.
I am looking forward to comment, input or suggestions.
Regards, -- DSBennie ( talk) 21:25, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
All hands on deck please for processing the results as they are released. Roger (Dodger67) ( talk) 17:08, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
I've done a lot of work on this article already, and I'm starting to feel a bit burned out. I'd appreciate help with it, especially for the Politics and Advocacy sections. Two glaring improvements that are necessary: the Dagga Couple section needs expanding, and a section on the Prince case needs to be included. AWildAppeared ( talk) 16:35, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
I think we really need to work on improving the articles on Bathabile Dlamini, the Department of Social Development, Minister of Social Development and the South African Social Security Agency. I've fleshed them out some, especially SASSA, and I'll keep adding more, but someone else should help me make them read more like encyclopaedia entries rather than news dumps. AWildAppeared ( talk) 15:39, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
Should the DSD and SASSA articles be merged? I can see a lot of DSD info being duplicated on the SASSA page. AWildAppeared ( talk) 12:51, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
Hey folks. The Nquthu Local Municipality was dissolved a few months ago and new elections are about to be held there, but there's no mention of it in the article. I don't want to edit the article myself because of my well-known conflict of interest in the topic of SA politics. But perhaps someone else could take a look at my edit request on the talk page? - htonl ( talk) 18:04, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
Hey all
Could these two pages not be merged as they cover the some thing and are closely related, with one very out of date?
/info/en/?search=Minister_of_Home_Affairs_(South_Africa)
/info/en/?search=Department_of_Home_Affairs_(South_Africa) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bizcallers ( talk • contribs) 10:15, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
@ Discott, Greenman, Htonl, and Conlinp: Hi, all - I hope that you are all doing well. I have recently expanded some of the South African premier-related articles. While doing so, I thought to myself, "Why has nobody added images to some of the South African premier articles? All of the United States Governors have images here on Wikipedia."
So I went onto Flickr and contacted the Government Communication and Information System (GCIS) for images. I got images for David Makhura and Sihle Zikalala on Flickr. I got permission from GCIS for a picture of Sisi Ntombela, but it is seen as inadequate by OTRS people. The GCIS person, who I contacted, is now frankly ignoring my requests for clarity.
I have also attempted to contact the regional ANC offices, but either I get an e-mail stating that their e-mail services are down or they are just blatantly ignoring my e-mails.
Now, getting down to business, I have decided to ask all of you for help in acquiring images of the premiers.
The following premier articles are in desperate need of images:
I hope that you all can find the time to please help me. Your help will greatly be appreciated. Thanks, in advance. Lefcentreright ( talk) 17:28, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
I would like to start a chapter / section for this task force with focus on political corruption, state capture etc..
I propose a list of articles to give attention to or create, along with researched referenceable material and suggested updates for each.
Ive always lone edited so not sure of the best way to go about this with a task force, and too much to undertake alone.
Assistance, guidance, support and help requested
Quadtripplea ( talk) 13:29, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
The ConCourt judgment yesterday (New Nation Movement NPC and Others v President of the Republic of South Africa and Others), which held that citizens have the right to stand for the National Assembly and provincial legislatures without having to be nominated by a party, is a pretty big deal in what it means for South African politics and elections, and it should have an article. (Notability is certainly established by the number of news articles published about it yesterday and today alone.) I'm willing to write up an article this weekend, but I have what might be perceived to be a conflict of interest so I'd prefer to have someone else review it before putting it into article space. Anyone up for that, or to work with me on writing the article? - htonl ( talk) 12:26, 12 June 2020 (UTC) I've started a draft at Draft:New Nation Movement v President. - htonl ( talk) 13:51, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
I'm new here but I've assigned myself already a task overhauling the List of SA Parties. The parties listed there, especially those outside the one in Parliament, is clustered at best and this list is incomplete. So I think we should sort them in tables by their level of electoral performance and the relative time period they operated. I already stated in the Talk page the main headings, and I'm gonna elaborate them here further since this is the most appropriate place to discuss them. Headings are Parliamentary Parties, Former Parliamentary Parties, Extra-Parliamentary Parties, Defunct Parties and Pre-1910 South African Parties. Headings 1 under Former Parliamentary Parties are Registered Extra-Parliamentary Parties, Defunct Parliamentary Parties, and Bantustan and Representative Councils Parties. Headings 2 under Defunct Parliamentary Parties are 1994-Present, 1961-1994, 1910-1961. If you so wish I will also state the column headings of each table. My main concerned are those parties that have dead links. When I tabulate a party I am gonna remove it from the list, but seeing that there was a discussion on keeping deadlinked parties and I'm too scared to touch them. But I'll still tabulate a party even if it doesn't have a page. Jordan Solo ( talk) 18:47, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
I am re-posting a request made by another editor and left on the South Africa portal page. Hemiauchenia has pointed out that there is a lack of adequate inline citations for the National Party article page and has requested that such citations be added. Below is the original message:
The National Party (South Africa) article, despite being 60,000 bytes in size, has an almost total lack of inline citations, making it impossible to know what is reliably sourced and what is original research. It's an immense cleanup job and I simply don't really have the interest or expertise in the topic to make a dent in it. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 19:40, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
-- Discott ( talk) 18:54, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
The stub for Minister of Economic Development should be merged into Minister of Trade, Industry and Competition but I don't know how to do that while preserving the information in the sidebar of the stub (which differs from that in the bigger article).
Will someone please take care of this? It's a very quick job but someone more knowledgeable on Wikipedia layouts / mergers needs to do it. Thanks.
AWildAppeared ( talk) 11:18, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
Hi folks - and especially User:Greenman and User:Number 57, whom I have seen working on LGE2021 election results. I have written a script which generates the complete results table for a local election for a municipality. You can see the result of my script in my recent edit to City of Cape Town elections#November 2021 election. I hope tomorrow to be able to put the script online so that you can use it to generate the election tables. This should make updating all the municipal articles with the new election results much easier. Will update here once I get it online. - htonl ( talk) 21:31, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
@ Greenman, Number 57, and Lefcentreright: the table script is now live on the web at https://wikitable.frith.dev/ and you are welcome to use it. The site should be fairly self-explanatory; choose an LGE; choose a municipality; then you will see the wiki-markup for the table. There is a "Copy to clipboard" button that makes it easy to copy the markup so you can paste it into a wiki editing window. You can choose between a full table that lists all parties contesting the election, and a shortened version that condenses the parties that won no seats into a single "other parties" row. I have checked quite a few examples to make sure it is working correctly, but please do let me know if you come across any issues. - htonl ( talk) 12:17, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
I just noticed it was missing the "%" signs in the percentage columns. I have added those now. Greenman, thanks, automatic refs are a good idea definitely. I will see what I can do about that. - htonl ( talk) 13:03, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
@ Greenman, Number 57, and Lefcentreright: It seems the IEC has still been quietly correcting disrepancies even after the results announcement. The changes affect City of Cape Town, City of Tshwane, eThekwini, Breede Valley, Stellenbosch, and Cape Winelands. My site has been updated now, and tables for those municipalities will need to be updated in the articles. - htonl ( talk) 07:07, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
References
Hi folks, I've been authorized to upload the following photos of DA mayors/mayors-elect to Commons.
I've sent all the necessary documentation to OTRS to release the photos under a CC license. Given my conflict of interest I'm not going to edit/create the articles myself. Pinging Lefcentreright since you've asked me for DA politician photos before. - htonl ( talk) 09:12, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
@ Lefcentreright: I have uploaded the following:
and am waiting for photos for some of the other newly-elected DA mayors. - htonl ( talk) 09:36, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
Hello South African Wikipedia Community,
I have had a difficult time understanding how to approach name changes across South Africa. I initially saw List of renamed places in South Africa and found it to be a fascinating list of changes that were, in many cases, not reflected in the individual city articles themselves. When I tried to update these articles to reflect the current name, I was met with backlash from many South African Wikipedians who claim that these name changes are not legitimate and are rejected by the people who live in the country. However, from my understanding of South African history, many of these names were colonial names that were implemented during apartheid and did not reflect the names that the people who lived in these areas used. In fact, I have read that during apartheid many black Africans did not actually use these names because they were imposed and differed heavily from the native place names that were already in use. Because many of these page moves are opposed for the same reason, I decided to post this here in order to have a larger discussion on this topic.
I have not seen a large amount of backlash to these name changes from black South Africans. The backlash is seemingly based on politics rather than the actual WP:COMMONNAME. With more and more black South Africans speaking English it seems hard to argue that these name changes are not being embraced by the vast majority of South Africa's population, especially considering many never used these names in the first place.
Democratic Legitimacy
One objection that pops up repeatedly states that South Africa did not implement these rules democratically, and that they were imposed without due process and consultation. However, non-governmental organizations such as Freedom House [1] rate South Africa's elections as free and fair.
This article outlines the process for name changes: https://businesstech.co.za/news/trending/511554/another-name-change-announced-for-south-africa/
“There was a need for the name changes as this is part of a government programme to transform South Africa’s heritage landscape. The names of places we live in reflect the identity and cultural heritage of the people of South Africa,” he said.
Mthetwa said that prior to the changes, the Provincial Geographical Names Committee conducted public consultations on all the names that were changed.
“The South African Geographical Names Act provides for objections within 30 days from members of the public in instances that they are not happy with the gazette name changes,” he said.
This appears to be sufficiently democratic, especially considering they were already elected officials who also allowed time for objections and discussion to occur. All the facts point to these decisions happening democratically, with the consent of the people in South Africa.
Almost all of my edits relating to South African cities have been reverted due to causing too much controversy. However, I struggle to see how places like Kala, Eastern Cape are a subject of controversy when the change was a grammatical correction of a corrupted name Cala->Kala. Even when the changes are meant to address decolonization, it appears that proper procedure was followed, the names are in use by government, on street signs, in the media, and in use by, at the very least, South Africa's black population.
Credibility of News Sources
One issue that frequently pops up are claims that South African media sources are not credible citations. However, I have not found a rule on Wikipedia stating this and it appears to create a lack of accuracy and Western bias. There is nothing in WP:RS that implies South African media and sources would not be accepted. I have cited news sites such as news24, Daily Maverick, The South African, and Herald Live. If these sources are illegitimate please tell me why. I do not see large amounts of disinformation and inaccuracies in their reporting.
Access to Internet
Another issue that frequently comes up is that search results are often used to justify WP:COMMONNAME; but from my understanding, many South Africans do not have access to internet and if they do it is not always reliable. This appears to create a 'digital divide' amongst many in South Africa. Evidence supports an understanding that there exists a modern day segregation between South Africa's Afrikaaner population and black South Africans due to, in large part, the legacy of apartheid. [2] In fact, the World Bank named South Africa the most unequal country in the world. [3] This creates a divide of not only wealth but internet access as well. Which in turn means that black communities in South Africa have a much more difficult time engaging with Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Desertambition ( talk • contribs) 22:53, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
Potential Bias
This section by an anonymous Wikipedian on the talk page of List of renamed places in South Africa reflects some of the concerns I have with these name changes and why there may be bias involved:
"I have no knowledge of South African history and merely stumbled across this page. But I am quite dumbfounded by this paragraph:
>Since 1994, many places in South Africa which have been renamed for political reasons by the ANC government. These name changes were intended to punish white South Africans as being white is no longer thought to be acceptable. Many places are now named after terrorists, money launderers and family and friends of the ANC government. This was a tactic for comrades of the ANC government to loot, exploit and steal more taxpayer money. After 1994 the once beautiful country have fallen to shambles as comrades only cater for their own gain.
This seems to be about as far from a neutral point of view as you can get, especially given the lack of citation. Simply saying "Since 1994, many places in South Africa which have been renamed for political reasons by the ANC government" would be sufficient; currently this article reads like nothing else I've seen on Wikipedia"
Looking at the logs, this issue has been ongoing since Wikipedia first launched with seemingly no resolution in sight. I have seen examples of users changing city articles that already existed to reflect the pre-apartheid names years after the city was officially renamed. I struggle to understand why that is necessary. The highly controversial Democratic Alliance party that used to be in charge during apartheid also seems to have a large presence on Wikipedia while I have not heard any voices from the minor political parties or the ruling African National Congress. Given how political these name changes are, I believe there may be some correlation.
Rather than reflecting a neutral point of view, it seems like many of these articles are written from the perspective of a white Afrikaaner. That does not mean bias is present of course but it does present a one-sided view of many topics. I have yet to speak to a black South African who wishes more places were named after Queen Elizabeth/Afrikaaners and wants to defend these old place names. From what I understand, some black people may not have positive views of apartheid and the names that were forced upon them. This article provides a good example of what this looks like on the ground in South Africa: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/jul/28/southafrica.rorycarroll
"Dozens of white residents in Lydenburg - and one black person - rallied to keep the name given to the town by Dutch settlers in the 19th century. The black mayor, Clara Ndlovu, recently announced that it would change to Mashishing, the name of a nearby black township which means "wind blowing through the grass".
Critics accuse the African National Congress government of stirring racial tension by pushing through such changes with little or no consultation."
So we have multiple sources, both inside and outside of South Africa that report widespread agreement with minor opposition from a small segment of the Afrikaaner population. Yet, it still seems like the supposed common name is just what some Afrikaaners would like it to be called.
Where Do We Go From Here
So my question to you, the South African Wikipedia community, is how do we approach these name changes going forward? They will seemingly always be unpopular amongst certain people in South Africa. But from my perspective, these changes should be implemented because the government has been voted in democratically and the changes were made without widespread disagreement amongst the large majority of South Africa's population. I believe List of renamed places in South Africa should be consistent across the board. Desertambition ( talk) 22:35, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
These names are already being used. They are currently in use by all major English-language publications in South Africa.: Great. Then start an RM on the relevant talk pages using the relevant sources. If that is indeed the case, then you should find consensus for an article move.
I have not said these names will be the WP:COMMONNAME, I am saying they are the WP:COMMONNAME.: In that case, again go and start an RM on the relevant talk page. My use of WP:CRYSTALBALL is in relation to applying new names by default.
I have not said that these place names should be changed because it hurts people's feelings.: This was mostly in regards to apartheid and decolonisation being potentially used as reasons for changing article title names when neither actually matter to Wikipedia.
I again encourage you to show me how I am working against current sources, including all major English-language South African publications and academic journals.: I'm not sure why you want me to show that you aren't using sources properly as this isn't a discussion about specific article moves, and I'm haven't said you aren't using sources correctly. If you want that discussion, I encourage you to start a RM on the specific talk pages.
Again, these are the names currently in use by South African media, government, and the majority of the population. that is always relevant to WP:CRITERIA. Never did I say the name should not reflect the WP:COMMONNAME.: Then start a RM. I'm not sure what the issue is. If you have the proper source material then you shouldn't have any trouble with move requests.
Proving that locals use the language is part of determining WP:COMMONNAME.: If you have that proof provide that in the relevant talk page.
My edits were not malicious in intent nor were they harmful or inaccurate. Making good faith edits with the support of reliable sources should be met with equally strong evidence against it rather than a full dismissal of any name changes.: I don't know anything about your edits but they don't really matter to your original proposal. Besides, what you are describing is actually against Wikipedia WP:PAGEMOVE policy as they are WP:RMUM. If you want a page moved the onus is on you to provide the proper evidence for why that should happen. If you have made an undiscussed move and it was reverted the proper procedure is to start a RM and provide your reasons for making the move.
In terms of internet access I encourage you to re-read what I wrote on the subject as you did not address systemic bias at all. That must be taken into consideration for things like this. Again, never did I say that this doesn't have to be proven.: Then I'm not sure what your point is. If you can prove that the name is used then there shouldn't be any issue.
Your point about only not only listening to certain groups is absolutely relevant here as evidence suggests that Wikipedia's names reflect an Afrikaner view of South African place names rather than reflecting WP:COMMONNAME.:If you can show that the proposed name is the common name then please do so on the relevant talk pages.
Given the overwhelming evidence indicating that these names are currently in use by the black majority population, all major English-language publications in South Africa, and no sign that this will change, it seems useful to avoid these fights by having a discussion with the larger South African Wikipedia community.:Sure, but my point was that every move has to be within policy and guidelines.
I want to highlight the fact that at no point did you address WP:BIAS in your post. Which is absolutely relevant here. Not everything that is done with good intentions is an example of WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS.:Because like everything else, you need to show bias when making the RM. It's all very well and good to say there is bias present, but unless you can prove it, then it doesn't matter in this context.
Sometimes an article, or series of articles like in this case, are inaccurate and controversial for more reasons than just pedantry. It would be dishonest of us to ignore the reality of current day South Africa and why adoption of these place names is actively discouraged by some, particularly those aligned with the Democratic Alliance party of South Africa.:If you do think that the names being used are incorrect then start an RM on the relevant pages.
References
Hello everyone, I have just created the article on the recent Farmgate scandal. I am finding it difficult to keep track of the event and making sense of it so I would like to know if others could please help with expanding, ordering, fact checking, and clarifying the article please.-- Discott ( talk) 14:25, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
Hey all, I started a discussion a while back on what to include and how in the infobox for the 1989 election, but it's lost traction with no clear consensus. Would appreciate your input, the discussion can be found here. Thanks! CipherRephic ( talk) 09:59, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
Hi folks, I've been authorized to upload the DA's portrait photos of its newly-appointed ministers and deputy ministers. In most cases these are newer and better than the photos currently on the articles. Pinging User:Lefcentreright especially. :)
Main | Assessment | Requests | Participants | Style Guide | Resources | Discussion |
![]() | South Africa: Politics Project‑class | |||||||||
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I've created a participants list page at Wikipedia:WikiProject South Africa/Politics task force/Participants. - htonl ( talk) 17:41, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
Sorry for only getting back to you all after so long, but I have been inactive on Wikipedia due to my studies. I think that their is a serious lack of work in relation to articles on the various acts by the parliament of South Africa. While I do feel that we need to try and produce information on every act passed. I do not believe that it would be best to have separate articles for each and every act as in many cases it would just result in a stub article that will never progress past that phase.
I would like to suggest that we perhaps look at making an article for each year which contains a bit of information on each act passed. Separate articles should only exist for acts that are notable enough that they a) warrant their own articles, and b) can contain more than just basic information. I would say that this would mainly be in the case of acts that make large changes to the law or obtained significant press coverage to warrant expanding information on the act beyond what would be given in the year article. We can then link the separate articles to the year article for extended reading on the act in the same way that articles link to more in-depth coverage of historical events in the History of South Africa article.
I will work on an example of this idea in a sandbox in due course so that it can be determined if you all feel that it is a workable solution to getting the information covered without cluttering Wikipedia with a hundred stumps containing a handful of sentences each.
I am looking forward to comment, input or suggestions.
Regards, -- DSBennie ( talk) 21:25, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
All hands on deck please for processing the results as they are released. Roger (Dodger67) ( talk) 17:08, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
I've done a lot of work on this article already, and I'm starting to feel a bit burned out. I'd appreciate help with it, especially for the Politics and Advocacy sections. Two glaring improvements that are necessary: the Dagga Couple section needs expanding, and a section on the Prince case needs to be included. AWildAppeared ( talk) 16:35, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
I think we really need to work on improving the articles on Bathabile Dlamini, the Department of Social Development, Minister of Social Development and the South African Social Security Agency. I've fleshed them out some, especially SASSA, and I'll keep adding more, but someone else should help me make them read more like encyclopaedia entries rather than news dumps. AWildAppeared ( talk) 15:39, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
Should the DSD and SASSA articles be merged? I can see a lot of DSD info being duplicated on the SASSA page. AWildAppeared ( talk) 12:51, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
Hey folks. The Nquthu Local Municipality was dissolved a few months ago and new elections are about to be held there, but there's no mention of it in the article. I don't want to edit the article myself because of my well-known conflict of interest in the topic of SA politics. But perhaps someone else could take a look at my edit request on the talk page? - htonl ( talk) 18:04, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
Hey all
Could these two pages not be merged as they cover the some thing and are closely related, with one very out of date?
/info/en/?search=Minister_of_Home_Affairs_(South_Africa)
/info/en/?search=Department_of_Home_Affairs_(South_Africa) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bizcallers ( talk • contribs) 10:15, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
@ Discott, Greenman, Htonl, and Conlinp: Hi, all - I hope that you are all doing well. I have recently expanded some of the South African premier-related articles. While doing so, I thought to myself, "Why has nobody added images to some of the South African premier articles? All of the United States Governors have images here on Wikipedia."
So I went onto Flickr and contacted the Government Communication and Information System (GCIS) for images. I got images for David Makhura and Sihle Zikalala on Flickr. I got permission from GCIS for a picture of Sisi Ntombela, but it is seen as inadequate by OTRS people. The GCIS person, who I contacted, is now frankly ignoring my requests for clarity.
I have also attempted to contact the regional ANC offices, but either I get an e-mail stating that their e-mail services are down or they are just blatantly ignoring my e-mails.
Now, getting down to business, I have decided to ask all of you for help in acquiring images of the premiers.
The following premier articles are in desperate need of images:
I hope that you all can find the time to please help me. Your help will greatly be appreciated. Thanks, in advance. Lefcentreright ( talk) 17:28, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
I would like to start a chapter / section for this task force with focus on political corruption, state capture etc..
I propose a list of articles to give attention to or create, along with researched referenceable material and suggested updates for each.
Ive always lone edited so not sure of the best way to go about this with a task force, and too much to undertake alone.
Assistance, guidance, support and help requested
Quadtripplea ( talk) 13:29, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
The ConCourt judgment yesterday (New Nation Movement NPC and Others v President of the Republic of South Africa and Others), which held that citizens have the right to stand for the National Assembly and provincial legislatures without having to be nominated by a party, is a pretty big deal in what it means for South African politics and elections, and it should have an article. (Notability is certainly established by the number of news articles published about it yesterday and today alone.) I'm willing to write up an article this weekend, but I have what might be perceived to be a conflict of interest so I'd prefer to have someone else review it before putting it into article space. Anyone up for that, or to work with me on writing the article? - htonl ( talk) 12:26, 12 June 2020 (UTC) I've started a draft at Draft:New Nation Movement v President. - htonl ( talk) 13:51, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
I'm new here but I've assigned myself already a task overhauling the List of SA Parties. The parties listed there, especially those outside the one in Parliament, is clustered at best and this list is incomplete. So I think we should sort them in tables by their level of electoral performance and the relative time period they operated. I already stated in the Talk page the main headings, and I'm gonna elaborate them here further since this is the most appropriate place to discuss them. Headings are Parliamentary Parties, Former Parliamentary Parties, Extra-Parliamentary Parties, Defunct Parties and Pre-1910 South African Parties. Headings 1 under Former Parliamentary Parties are Registered Extra-Parliamentary Parties, Defunct Parliamentary Parties, and Bantustan and Representative Councils Parties. Headings 2 under Defunct Parliamentary Parties are 1994-Present, 1961-1994, 1910-1961. If you so wish I will also state the column headings of each table. My main concerned are those parties that have dead links. When I tabulate a party I am gonna remove it from the list, but seeing that there was a discussion on keeping deadlinked parties and I'm too scared to touch them. But I'll still tabulate a party even if it doesn't have a page. Jordan Solo ( talk) 18:47, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
I am re-posting a request made by another editor and left on the South Africa portal page. Hemiauchenia has pointed out that there is a lack of adequate inline citations for the National Party article page and has requested that such citations be added. Below is the original message:
The National Party (South Africa) article, despite being 60,000 bytes in size, has an almost total lack of inline citations, making it impossible to know what is reliably sourced and what is original research. It's an immense cleanup job and I simply don't really have the interest or expertise in the topic to make a dent in it. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 19:40, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
-- Discott ( talk) 18:54, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
The stub for Minister of Economic Development should be merged into Minister of Trade, Industry and Competition but I don't know how to do that while preserving the information in the sidebar of the stub (which differs from that in the bigger article).
Will someone please take care of this? It's a very quick job but someone more knowledgeable on Wikipedia layouts / mergers needs to do it. Thanks.
AWildAppeared ( talk) 11:18, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
Hi folks - and especially User:Greenman and User:Number 57, whom I have seen working on LGE2021 election results. I have written a script which generates the complete results table for a local election for a municipality. You can see the result of my script in my recent edit to City of Cape Town elections#November 2021 election. I hope tomorrow to be able to put the script online so that you can use it to generate the election tables. This should make updating all the municipal articles with the new election results much easier. Will update here once I get it online. - htonl ( talk) 21:31, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
@ Greenman, Number 57, and Lefcentreright: the table script is now live on the web at https://wikitable.frith.dev/ and you are welcome to use it. The site should be fairly self-explanatory; choose an LGE; choose a municipality; then you will see the wiki-markup for the table. There is a "Copy to clipboard" button that makes it easy to copy the markup so you can paste it into a wiki editing window. You can choose between a full table that lists all parties contesting the election, and a shortened version that condenses the parties that won no seats into a single "other parties" row. I have checked quite a few examples to make sure it is working correctly, but please do let me know if you come across any issues. - htonl ( talk) 12:17, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
I just noticed it was missing the "%" signs in the percentage columns. I have added those now. Greenman, thanks, automatic refs are a good idea definitely. I will see what I can do about that. - htonl ( talk) 13:03, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
@ Greenman, Number 57, and Lefcentreright: It seems the IEC has still been quietly correcting disrepancies even after the results announcement. The changes affect City of Cape Town, City of Tshwane, eThekwini, Breede Valley, Stellenbosch, and Cape Winelands. My site has been updated now, and tables for those municipalities will need to be updated in the articles. - htonl ( talk) 07:07, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
References
Hi folks, I've been authorized to upload the following photos of DA mayors/mayors-elect to Commons.
I've sent all the necessary documentation to OTRS to release the photos under a CC license. Given my conflict of interest I'm not going to edit/create the articles myself. Pinging Lefcentreright since you've asked me for DA politician photos before. - htonl ( talk) 09:12, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
@ Lefcentreright: I have uploaded the following:
and am waiting for photos for some of the other newly-elected DA mayors. - htonl ( talk) 09:36, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
Hello South African Wikipedia Community,
I have had a difficult time understanding how to approach name changes across South Africa. I initially saw List of renamed places in South Africa and found it to be a fascinating list of changes that were, in many cases, not reflected in the individual city articles themselves. When I tried to update these articles to reflect the current name, I was met with backlash from many South African Wikipedians who claim that these name changes are not legitimate and are rejected by the people who live in the country. However, from my understanding of South African history, many of these names were colonial names that were implemented during apartheid and did not reflect the names that the people who lived in these areas used. In fact, I have read that during apartheid many black Africans did not actually use these names because they were imposed and differed heavily from the native place names that were already in use. Because many of these page moves are opposed for the same reason, I decided to post this here in order to have a larger discussion on this topic.
I have not seen a large amount of backlash to these name changes from black South Africans. The backlash is seemingly based on politics rather than the actual WP:COMMONNAME. With more and more black South Africans speaking English it seems hard to argue that these name changes are not being embraced by the vast majority of South Africa's population, especially considering many never used these names in the first place.
Democratic Legitimacy
One objection that pops up repeatedly states that South Africa did not implement these rules democratically, and that they were imposed without due process and consultation. However, non-governmental organizations such as Freedom House [1] rate South Africa's elections as free and fair.
This article outlines the process for name changes: https://businesstech.co.za/news/trending/511554/another-name-change-announced-for-south-africa/
“There was a need for the name changes as this is part of a government programme to transform South Africa’s heritage landscape. The names of places we live in reflect the identity and cultural heritage of the people of South Africa,” he said.
Mthetwa said that prior to the changes, the Provincial Geographical Names Committee conducted public consultations on all the names that were changed.
“The South African Geographical Names Act provides for objections within 30 days from members of the public in instances that they are not happy with the gazette name changes,” he said.
This appears to be sufficiently democratic, especially considering they were already elected officials who also allowed time for objections and discussion to occur. All the facts point to these decisions happening democratically, with the consent of the people in South Africa.
Almost all of my edits relating to South African cities have been reverted due to causing too much controversy. However, I struggle to see how places like Kala, Eastern Cape are a subject of controversy when the change was a grammatical correction of a corrupted name Cala->Kala. Even when the changes are meant to address decolonization, it appears that proper procedure was followed, the names are in use by government, on street signs, in the media, and in use by, at the very least, South Africa's black population.
Credibility of News Sources
One issue that frequently pops up are claims that South African media sources are not credible citations. However, I have not found a rule on Wikipedia stating this and it appears to create a lack of accuracy and Western bias. There is nothing in WP:RS that implies South African media and sources would not be accepted. I have cited news sites such as news24, Daily Maverick, The South African, and Herald Live. If these sources are illegitimate please tell me why. I do not see large amounts of disinformation and inaccuracies in their reporting.
Access to Internet
Another issue that frequently comes up is that search results are often used to justify WP:COMMONNAME; but from my understanding, many South Africans do not have access to internet and if they do it is not always reliable. This appears to create a 'digital divide' amongst many in South Africa. Evidence supports an understanding that there exists a modern day segregation between South Africa's Afrikaaner population and black South Africans due to, in large part, the legacy of apartheid. [2] In fact, the World Bank named South Africa the most unequal country in the world. [3] This creates a divide of not only wealth but internet access as well. Which in turn means that black communities in South Africa have a much more difficult time engaging with Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Desertambition ( talk • contribs) 22:53, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
Potential Bias
This section by an anonymous Wikipedian on the talk page of List of renamed places in South Africa reflects some of the concerns I have with these name changes and why there may be bias involved:
"I have no knowledge of South African history and merely stumbled across this page. But I am quite dumbfounded by this paragraph:
>Since 1994, many places in South Africa which have been renamed for political reasons by the ANC government. These name changes were intended to punish white South Africans as being white is no longer thought to be acceptable. Many places are now named after terrorists, money launderers and family and friends of the ANC government. This was a tactic for comrades of the ANC government to loot, exploit and steal more taxpayer money. After 1994 the once beautiful country have fallen to shambles as comrades only cater for their own gain.
This seems to be about as far from a neutral point of view as you can get, especially given the lack of citation. Simply saying "Since 1994, many places in South Africa which have been renamed for political reasons by the ANC government" would be sufficient; currently this article reads like nothing else I've seen on Wikipedia"
Looking at the logs, this issue has been ongoing since Wikipedia first launched with seemingly no resolution in sight. I have seen examples of users changing city articles that already existed to reflect the pre-apartheid names years after the city was officially renamed. I struggle to understand why that is necessary. The highly controversial Democratic Alliance party that used to be in charge during apartheid also seems to have a large presence on Wikipedia while I have not heard any voices from the minor political parties or the ruling African National Congress. Given how political these name changes are, I believe there may be some correlation.
Rather than reflecting a neutral point of view, it seems like many of these articles are written from the perspective of a white Afrikaaner. That does not mean bias is present of course but it does present a one-sided view of many topics. I have yet to speak to a black South African who wishes more places were named after Queen Elizabeth/Afrikaaners and wants to defend these old place names. From what I understand, some black people may not have positive views of apartheid and the names that were forced upon them. This article provides a good example of what this looks like on the ground in South Africa: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/jul/28/southafrica.rorycarroll
"Dozens of white residents in Lydenburg - and one black person - rallied to keep the name given to the town by Dutch settlers in the 19th century. The black mayor, Clara Ndlovu, recently announced that it would change to Mashishing, the name of a nearby black township which means "wind blowing through the grass".
Critics accuse the African National Congress government of stirring racial tension by pushing through such changes with little or no consultation."
So we have multiple sources, both inside and outside of South Africa that report widespread agreement with minor opposition from a small segment of the Afrikaaner population. Yet, it still seems like the supposed common name is just what some Afrikaaners would like it to be called.
Where Do We Go From Here
So my question to you, the South African Wikipedia community, is how do we approach these name changes going forward? They will seemingly always be unpopular amongst certain people in South Africa. But from my perspective, these changes should be implemented because the government has been voted in democratically and the changes were made without widespread disagreement amongst the large majority of South Africa's population. I believe List of renamed places in South Africa should be consistent across the board. Desertambition ( talk) 22:35, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
These names are already being used. They are currently in use by all major English-language publications in South Africa.: Great. Then start an RM on the relevant talk pages using the relevant sources. If that is indeed the case, then you should find consensus for an article move.
I have not said these names will be the WP:COMMONNAME, I am saying they are the WP:COMMONNAME.: In that case, again go and start an RM on the relevant talk page. My use of WP:CRYSTALBALL is in relation to applying new names by default.
I have not said that these place names should be changed because it hurts people's feelings.: This was mostly in regards to apartheid and decolonisation being potentially used as reasons for changing article title names when neither actually matter to Wikipedia.
I again encourage you to show me how I am working against current sources, including all major English-language South African publications and academic journals.: I'm not sure why you want me to show that you aren't using sources properly as this isn't a discussion about specific article moves, and I'm haven't said you aren't using sources correctly. If you want that discussion, I encourage you to start a RM on the specific talk pages.
Again, these are the names currently in use by South African media, government, and the majority of the population. that is always relevant to WP:CRITERIA. Never did I say the name should not reflect the WP:COMMONNAME.: Then start a RM. I'm not sure what the issue is. If you have the proper source material then you shouldn't have any trouble with move requests.
Proving that locals use the language is part of determining WP:COMMONNAME.: If you have that proof provide that in the relevant talk page.
My edits were not malicious in intent nor were they harmful or inaccurate. Making good faith edits with the support of reliable sources should be met with equally strong evidence against it rather than a full dismissal of any name changes.: I don't know anything about your edits but they don't really matter to your original proposal. Besides, what you are describing is actually against Wikipedia WP:PAGEMOVE policy as they are WP:RMUM. If you want a page moved the onus is on you to provide the proper evidence for why that should happen. If you have made an undiscussed move and it was reverted the proper procedure is to start a RM and provide your reasons for making the move.
In terms of internet access I encourage you to re-read what I wrote on the subject as you did not address systemic bias at all. That must be taken into consideration for things like this. Again, never did I say that this doesn't have to be proven.: Then I'm not sure what your point is. If you can prove that the name is used then there shouldn't be any issue.
Your point about only not only listening to certain groups is absolutely relevant here as evidence suggests that Wikipedia's names reflect an Afrikaner view of South African place names rather than reflecting WP:COMMONNAME.:If you can show that the proposed name is the common name then please do so on the relevant talk pages.
Given the overwhelming evidence indicating that these names are currently in use by the black majority population, all major English-language publications in South Africa, and no sign that this will change, it seems useful to avoid these fights by having a discussion with the larger South African Wikipedia community.:Sure, but my point was that every move has to be within policy and guidelines.
I want to highlight the fact that at no point did you address WP:BIAS in your post. Which is absolutely relevant here. Not everything that is done with good intentions is an example of WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS.:Because like everything else, you need to show bias when making the RM. It's all very well and good to say there is bias present, but unless you can prove it, then it doesn't matter in this context.
Sometimes an article, or series of articles like in this case, are inaccurate and controversial for more reasons than just pedantry. It would be dishonest of us to ignore the reality of current day South Africa and why adoption of these place names is actively discouraged by some, particularly those aligned with the Democratic Alliance party of South Africa.:If you do think that the names being used are incorrect then start an RM on the relevant pages.
References
Hello everyone, I have just created the article on the recent Farmgate scandal. I am finding it difficult to keep track of the event and making sense of it so I would like to know if others could please help with expanding, ordering, fact checking, and clarifying the article please.-- Discott ( talk) 14:25, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
Hey all, I started a discussion a while back on what to include and how in the infobox for the 1989 election, but it's lost traction with no clear consensus. Would appreciate your input, the discussion can be found here. Thanks! CipherRephic ( talk) 09:59, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
Hi folks, I've been authorized to upload the DA's portrait photos of its newly-appointed ministers and deputy ministers. In most cases these are newer and better than the photos currently on the articles. Pinging User:Lefcentreright especially. :)