This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
In practice, we have been keeping the play articles' bolded portions in the first sentence according to the common title of the play, not the quarto versions. For example, we say "Romeo and Juliet is a play...", not "The Most Excellent and Lamentable Tragedie of Romeo and Juliet is a play..." However, on our play guideline, we say we want the quarto play titles bolded. Which do we want?
I, personally, would like to use the common titles. Quarto titles are long and unfamiliar to most people. They aren't really official, and each early edition of the plays used a different title, so it isn't even consistent. I think we should change the guideline to match what has been naturally going on in practice. Wrad 01:08, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
I think Twelfth Night should be moved. Also, for the more developed play articles, we include the alternate titles in the "Date and texts" section. So we could make that an established guideline... Wrad 15:13, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
There definitely needs to be a reference to the full title of the plays in the first section. Perhaps " Hamlet or The Tragedy of Hamlet: Prince of Denmark is a play by...". In any case, without such a reference the page is incomplete and as an encyclopaedia this is unacceptable. Wikipedia is often considered the definitive source on such issues and to omit something as significant as Hamlet's full title is not right. I think that the title of the page should be "Hamlet", while the opening line should be The Tragedy of Hamlet: Prince of Denmark, reflecting the second Quarto title. SolomonFreer 04:47, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
I still agree with Wrad and Dionysos on this - stick with the common title in the lead, and then list the variant titles in the text section in context of the quartos that they were attached to. This will allow for a uniform approach to all the plays, regardless of how many titles they might have or how extensive those titles might be. Smatprt 05:33, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
A cri de coeur: I thought this morning that I might be able to do the Project some service by swapping Twelfth Night, or What You Will with Twelfth Night (via an intermediate stage), as there seems to be a consensus about the move up above here. I started - at about 1130am GMT - by moving the latter to Twelfth Nights, which worked OK, but when I tried to move the former to Twelfth Night (with a view to then moving TNs to TN oWYW), there was a red error message saying that I couldn't do it. I waited 5 minutes or so before trying again (on the basis that WP needs time to update its files), but same result, so, as I was due to go out to lunch, I gave up and moved Twelfth Nights back to Twelfth Night, which, again, worked OK, though it's left an unnecessary redirect in its wake (sigh!). Should I have waited longer for the updating stuff to take effect? Would another time of day have been better? Or did I make some fundamental mistake? There I was, all ready to deal with double redirects and so forth, so it was all a bit frustrating.... -- GuillaumeTell 22:15, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
I put in a request and the page has been moved to Twelfth Night now. DionysosProteus 20:45, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
This is just for future reference. I found it interesting:
All other articles are below 1000 edits. King Lear weighs in at a dismal 680 edits. These are interesting trends. Wrad 03:19, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
I wanted to get the project's opinion on my suggested change to the Shakespeare template. So what do you think? Remember 16:49, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
I like it! Bardofcornish 21:26, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
I notice that an infobox has appeared on Romeo and Juliet. I'm not so fond. Is this covered in the project's standardization guidelines? If not, perhaps we should agree on a standard for or against? DionysosProteus 16:17, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Having reviewed those discussions I notice that there is an aspect that did not appear to arise. I am in support of infoboxes, but only under certain circumstances--namely, where the information that they provide is "buried" in large blocks of text, or where an article is under-developed and the information they provide has not made its way into the main body of the article yet. In the case of Romeo and Juliet, however, I don't see either of those situations. It repeats the list of characters, which is laid out in almost identical format further down in the main body and the rest of the info is provided in the first paragraph of the intro. Those are the 'neutral' reasons. Against inclusion, it doesn't look as good as the previous layout to my eyes. We also have two templates at the end of the article that summarise info in a visual way. I'm going to leave it for the moment to wait to hear what others think. DionysosProteus 16:42, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
I do apologise but hadn't seen this discussion before creating a few infoboxes on some Shakespearean tragedy pages. I would argue that they are useful visually as they are at the top of the page and are easily digestible. It also means that it falls in line with many other wikipedia pages. I don't see much point in purposefully holding back Shakespeare pages while other pages become more advanced. I also think that they will be helpful for the large amount of students who come to wikipedia to find out information about these plays. I think that wikipedia needs to have more of a uniform approach to give a "user-friendly" look. If you are dead against this, I apologise and please remove them should you feel that it is necessary. Wikiadam 17:04, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Hello all. A quick question that I have been asked and don't know the answer to: Were any of Shakespeare's plays first performed in a private theatre? I know Macbeth might have revised for indoor, but are there any clear examples of a Shakespeare première at Blackfriars? DionysosProteus 17:12, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Many thanks, DionysosProteus 23:45, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Right now we have Hamlet going strong for FA status, and we may want to have a new GA project collaboration. The most logical one right now seems to be The Tempest, since several editors are already working on it. Shall we have that article be our GA collaboration and Hamlet our FA one? Wrad 00:27, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
The Tempest sounds good, because it's already being worked on, but perhaps we want to do a history (I was thinking Henry V), just to well-rounded? Bardofcornish 12:00, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Hello all. My sources are proving a little contradictory with regard to Philip Sidney's Defense of Poesy. I know that it was written sometime between 1580-1583, but it is its first publication date that's tripping me up. I'm referring to Marvin Carlson's Theories of the Theatre, which says on p.80 that it was first published in 1593 but then on p.82 gives it as Defense of Poesy ( 1595). The other sources I have here aren't much help (Dramatic Theory and Criticism, The Cambridge Guide to Theatre) as they give the date of composition rather than publication. Might someone have a source to hand that settles it? Thanks, DionysosProteus 20:01, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
There is a proposal up for a project focusing on general, basic literature articles here. Please add your name if you are interested. Thanks, Wrad 21:02, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I asked for some help regarding Dating Hamlet, at the help desk, here: Wikipedia:Help desk#Moves from userspace to mainspace. There seems to be a view among some of the help-deskers that an article on that subject is inappropriate for Wikipedia. Does anyone here have a view? See also the discussion I initiated at Talk:Hamlet#Date. AndyJones 17:14, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I think it is time that we applied it for at least B-class, the quality of it at least meets that. I myself, would like some support before I go for B-class. Please give your OPINION. Thanks, Meldshal 42 00:25, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
I have split the List of Shakespearean characters article into two separate articles encompassing Characters with names from A-K and names from L-Z. I preserved the existing order of characters, and duplicated sources. I have also removed most double-redirects, sending redirects to the A-K article unless it's clear that a particular character from L-Z was intended. I also corrected the template to refer to both pages, and amended the Table of Contents to link between the two articles for easy navigation. As the article was ranked #14 on the list of longest articles in the main article space, it was a good candidate for a split. The history of the page is preserved at the A-K article. ZZ Claims ~ Evidence 17:58, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I am bringing this conversation over from the Hamlet discussion page [ [1]] as it may effect more than just the one play. I think it important we have a good discussion on this and see what we can come up with. Smatprt ( talk) 08:08, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
So what is up with the section ordering? I tried to put the article into the project format and was reverted. Happy to discuss (again), but haven't we hashed this out? The following order, developed on the project page [ [2]], worked very well for R&J, yes? Smatprt ( talk) 20:00, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
1 Sources 2 Date and text 3 Characters 4 Synopsis 5 Analysis 5.1 Dramatic structure 5.2 Language 5.3 Themes and motifs 5.3.1 Love 5.3.2 Fate and chance 5.3.3 Light and dark 5.3.4 Time 5.4 Other approaches 5.4.1 Psychoanalytic 5.4.2 Feminist 5.4.3 Gender studies 6 Influences 7 Performances and adaptations 7.1 Stage history 7.1.1 Shakespeare's day 7.1.2 The Restoration 7.1.3 19th century 7.1.4 20th century 7.2 Music 7.3 Screen 8 See also 9 References 10 External links Smatprt's posting ends here
? Sources
?.1 Origins in Legend
?.2 Ur-Hamlet
Yes? AndyJones ( talk) 20:17, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Exactly my concern. In Hamlet's case, should we expand on Andy's idea and consider making a seperate article for Sources, Dates and Text (perhaps as part of his good work on the dating) and then reduce those sections to a more reasonable length? If those sections were shorter, that would address Roger's issue of length. The context argument goes both ways and knowing a little history up front about where the stories came from also makes sense. in any case, I'm all for consistancy, which was my main concern. It would be nice to stick with the project guidlines until we come up with something else. A lot of good discussion went on when they were developed. Smatprt ( talk) 22:53, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
From a purely rhetorical or pleasurable consideration, it strikes me that jumping straight into the characters and story is a more satisfying read for your 'average' browser (whoever they may be). Isn't where the story came from a secondary consideration to the story itself? Even more so for the textual history, even when that is as central to a consideration of a play's significance as it is with Hamlet? I would suggest considering a move down below the performance history or analysis; its the plot, meaning and performance that's the juicy stuff (IMHO). I don't mean to stir up hard-won debates (if there were any), or to impugn the suggested structure; I'm kind of assuming that it's followed from the editions of books, and the that the thought that a web page article might organise differently wasn't obvious. We're writing about theatre, so I guess all I'm suggesting is a little theatricality or razzamataz (in an encyclopedic and verified way, of course) in the presentation. I suspect the audience might start shuffling and a-coughing. Just a thought. DionysosProteus 06:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
As an example of how varied sections can be, compare Hamlet to The Tempest, both of which we are working on. Hamlet has multiple textual issues and a wealth of scholarship on dating and sources, causing us to have a divided sources section and separate sections for Dating and Texts. The Tempest was never published in Quarto before the First Folio, and thus has very few text issues. Sourcing and dating issues have proved to be an entirely different story, but The Tempest article will never merit a separate Texts section, as Hamlet clearly does. Wrad ( talk) 19:35, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to go ahead and take the characters section out of the guidelines if there are no objections. Wrad ( talk) 22:40, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
We could put them all on an infobox. Just kidding! I don't really like the idea of listing all the characters in an article. I just don't see how that would make a good article. I'm trying to reconcile it... Let's go back to Hamlet as a clear example. Is there anything you don't like about how characters are represented in that article? Wrad ( talk) 03:03, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) I'm not just regurgitating, I'm trying to figure out what the assumptions of your argument are - they seem to be shifting. Your new position seems incompatible with that assumption to me. Awadewit | talk 08:54, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) But this is not just about the mechanics of producing plays (and I really find it hard to believe that professionals would need to rely on wikipedia's list of characters) - this is also about what an encyclopedia is. It is not just a listing of information. As I stated before, there are more appropriate venues for that, such as wikisource, where the play itself can be copied. An article about the play does not need to have a dramatis personae. Awadewit | talk 08:54, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) Think about the number of people who read Shakespeare plays this way: almost all high schools in the United States require their students to read at least one Shakespeare play, British secondary schools do as well, the more well-to-do schools in India do the same.... This is simply logic - the number of people required to read Shakespeare outstrips the number of people who have the means or opportunity to attend a Shakespeare performance. Awadewit | talk 08:54, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
(unident) You're not really responding to the argument here about wikipedia's role as an encyclopedia or its credibility, which I feel are important considerations as well. I stand by my suggestion that moving the list to another page or relying on wikisource are the two best solutions. Awadewit | talk 08:54, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Has the thought occurred to anyone else that if we put R&J up for FAC now or soon, we might be able to snag the front page for Valentine's Day, 2008? (Well, I think it'd be cute...) - Malkinann ( talk) 22:02, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I've followed the above discussions with interest, whithout chiming in much, but I find I have two things I'm bursting to say:
1. Our articles MUST be useful to the person who doesn't know anything about the subject. We can be brilliant if we absolutely have to, but the core purpose of an encyclopedia, especially a populist one like Wikipedia, is to get the main points over for the complete beginner.
2. While it's not wrong to have a project framework, it is absolutely wrong to stick rigidly to the framework as it stood when it was thrashed out, rather than learning from the experience of editing articles and updating the framework accordingly. AndyJones ( talk) 13:49, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Wow. Has anyone else noticed some excellent article expansion going on in several play articles lately? Take a look at recent edits to Richard III', A Midsummer Night's Dream, The Taming of the Shrew, and Titus Andronicus. Several people seem to be taking the guidelines on this page to heart! Wrad ( talk) 02:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm pleased to report that I've finished "my bit", that is to say, the Afterlife section, of the collaboration on the Tempest article. I don't mean that that bit is perfect or finished, just that I've done as much as I'm going to do. I'm probably switching my attentions back to the FA drive at Hamlet for a while. AndyJones ( talk) 21:49, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
There is a deletion controversy going on here, please take part on its talk page. Wrad ( talk) 18:26, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Just letting everyone know. Wrad ( talk) 23:57, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Now that Hamlet has reached FA status, what's up next? I personally think A midsummer's night's dream would be a good choice, simply because so many people are already working on it. Other suggestions would be Romeo and Juliet it already has GA status, Twelfth Night...what do others think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bardofcornish ( talk • contribs) 21:02, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't want us to end up speard too thinly. How about:
Can we revisit the issue of Character Lists in the play articles? We made the exception in the Hamlet article and deleted the list (then turned it into a button way down at the bottom of the article), but I still believe that was a mistake. Is there a Wiki-wide policy that applies to plays in general? (not that all rules should be automatically followed!). In any case, in the Hamlet discussion, only 3 or 4 editors chimed in who wanted to do away with the Characters, but that was enough to create a (small) consensus so the character list is no longer part of the main article. Before this slowly happens with every article - or instead of revisiting the issue another 36 times, can we attempt a discussion with more participants? Also - should the discussion happen here - or on the theatre project page which, I assume, would apply to many more plays here on Wikipedia?
For the record, since the works are first and foremost, plays, I think it an essential ingredient to a good theatre article to have the character lists, as given to us in the First Folio, included in the entry. I do not believe having the lists clutters up the article, but rather is an essential guide to making the overall article more understandable and easier to follow (especially with the larger casts or plays with similar sounding character names, of which there are many. I also find the lists an excellent reference tool for students, teachers, actors, designers, directors and anyone who travels with their laptop instead of hauling around plays and other reference books. Smatprt ( talk) 02:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I see. However, there is one bit which hasn't quite been spelled out--that is, let's say the article Characters in the Tempest were created. Ariel already has his/her own article, so how would we represent him/her on the Characters in... article? Bardofcornish ( talk) 20:32, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I see that a bot has added a string of fair use queries to Shakespeare on screen. Does anyone have a view on whether these images should be retained and, if yes, what should be done?
There seems to be a general tightening-up on images in the last few days. I notice the commons image at Romeo and Juliet on screen has gone, too. AndyJones ( talk) 13:51, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Can I direct your attention to the discussion I've started regarding a recent page move, at Talk:Hamlet on screen#Page move? (Perhaps discuss there not here?) AndyJones ( talk) 20:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
There's a backlog at WP:GAN and Ga reviewers are calling on wikiprojects to chip in more and more. I just put Banquo up for GA and would like to invite anyone in this project who hasn't previously edited that page to review the article (or any other article at GA, for that matter) in order to help with the backlog. Besides, Banquo is pretty cool! Especially when he's a ghost. Wrad ( talk) 21:51, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
What rule of thumb would you suggest for the Importance rating for articles such as Judith Quiney and other family members? My initial thought is that these would be rated High importance, but as you may or may not have noticed, my primary interest is in the purely biographical articles, and the purely biographical bits of general WP:BARD articles; such that I don't entirely trust my instincts on this.
Any thoughts on what rating these merit? -- Xover ( talk) 08:32, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
User: Mywood2004, who is translating William Shakespeare for a Chinese wikipedia, has pointed out to me that Cymbeline was wrongly listed as a comedy rather than a tragedy. I have moved it on the William Shakespeare article lists, but I don't know how to edit the "William Shakespeare and his works" template. Since the other plays are listed there as per the First Folio, I think Cymbeline should be too. It also looks like there are other articles where the listing is wrong. qp10qp ( talk) 15:29, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi! Following a request from Wrad over at the Spoken Wikipedia project, I have started to produce a spoken version of William Shakespeare. Progress has been reasonable so far, although I also have an article up for WP:FAC so I can't devote all my time to it at the moment. Anyway, although I'm reasonably familiar with Shakespeare's works, I may just need some clarification on a few pronunciations. If project members could watch out here for any requests for help, I would be grateful! (I am comfortable with IPA transcriptions.) Thanks, Hassocks5489 ( talk) 18:09, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I have finished recording, and am now ready to edit and upload. However, I would like to have confirmation of the accepted pronunciations of these names from the text, before I start the editing process. (I think I've got them right, but want to make sure!!)
Thanks in anticipation! Hassocks5489 ( talk) 21:06, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I've nominated Act 1, Scene 5 of "Romeo & Juliet" for deletion, thought you might like to be made aware of it. - Malkinann ( talk) 12:02, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone have access to volume 5 of Shakespearean Criticism: Criticism of William Shakespeare's Plays & Poetry, from the First Published Appraisals to Current Evaluations, for making a Critical history section for Romeo and Juliet? Thank you. - Malkinann ( talk) 20:22, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I've been working at this article for awhile and it's starting to really take shape. These characters are some of the most unusual and versatile I've dealt with so I'm wondering if a few of you could drop by and have a look and offer suggestions. Wrad ( talk) 04:28, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
First off, hello WP:Bard! This is the first Project I've joined and I'm looking forward to working on it.
Second: I'm planning to go through all the pages on the individual Sonnets and standardise them, as they're currently quite heterogeneous. The main things I've noticed that need doing are:
Additionally, some of the poems lack analysis which it would be nice to add. I've also seen at least one (I forget the number) which refers to the Fair Youth as male in half the article and female in the other. I'm sure other things will come up, too.
So, if anyone has comments or suggestions or wants to help I'd love to hear from them.
Best, Olaf Davis | Talk 19:12, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
"Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford and Henry Wriothesley, 3rd Earl of Southampton Oxford and Southampton, besides having been lovers, are also thought by many to have been - the first - the pseudonymous author of the works ascribed to the historical William Shakespeare, and - the second - the youth known as the Fair Lord to whom most of the Sonnets are dedicated. [27]" --anyone care to comment on the accuracy of this? - PetraSchelm ( talk) 00:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Could some of you please check whether Howard Staunton gives a reasonable picture of him as a Shakespeare scholar. Please leave comments at Talk:Howard Staunton. Many thanks, Philcha ( talk) 16:59, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
As you may have heard, we at the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team recently made some changes to the assessment scale, including the addition of a new level. The new description is available at WP:ASSESS.
Each WikiProject should already have a new C-Class category at Category:C-Class_articles. If your project elects not to use the new level, you can simply delete your WikiProject's C-Class category and clarify any amendments on your project's assessment/discussion pages. The bot is already finding and listing C-Class articles.
Please leave a message with us if you have any queries regarding the introduction of the revised scheme. This scheme should allow the team to start producing offline selections for your project and the wider community within the next year. Thanks for using the Wikipedia 1.0 scheme! For the 1.0 Editorial Team, §hepBot ( Disable) 20:49, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
There seems to still be a Talk page for List of Characters in The Tempest even though the article itself has been merged into The Tempest. Anyone know how to go about fixing that? Xover ( talk) 22:19, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
I notice on the WP:BARD project template the text reads “ […] is part of WikiProject Shakespeare […]” where, e.g., the Biography project uses the phrasing “[…] is within the scope of […]”. I think the latter is better as it doesn't imply ownership as the former does. Unless someone objects I'll change the template accordingly. -- Xover ( talk) 22:26, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
This article is undergoing a peer review right now on the way to FA status. Wrad ( talk) 16:12, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
I happened to read the current version of Baconian theory today, and I have to say it's looking very good. Does anyone want to take a look and perhaps propose it for GA? AndyJones ( talk) 20:09, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi! I'd like to interview your project for the Signpost. It would basically work by me asking you a few starting questions on this page, adding a few as we go on, then editing the conversations down into a newspaper-style interview-article (I'll link the original thread at the bottom). The purpose is to point out the good work you're doing to the project in general, and hopefully to attract more people in. Would you be interested? Shoemaker's Holiday ( talk) 12:11, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Currently, 532 articles are assigned to this project, of which 129, or 24.2%, are flagged for cleanup of some sort. (Data as of 14 July 2008.) Are you interested in finding out more? I am offering to generate cleanup to-do lists on a project or work group level. See User:B. Wolterding/Cleanup listings for details. More than 150 projects and work groups have already subscribed, and adding a subscription for yours is easy - just place the following template on your project page:
If you want to respond to this canned message, please do so at my user talk page; I'm not watching this page. -- B. Wolterding ( talk) 16:38, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
In practice, we have been keeping the play articles' bolded portions in the first sentence according to the common title of the play, not the quarto versions. For example, we say "Romeo and Juliet is a play...", not "The Most Excellent and Lamentable Tragedie of Romeo and Juliet is a play..." However, on our play guideline, we say we want the quarto play titles bolded. Which do we want?
I, personally, would like to use the common titles. Quarto titles are long and unfamiliar to most people. They aren't really official, and each early edition of the plays used a different title, so it isn't even consistent. I think we should change the guideline to match what has been naturally going on in practice. Wrad 01:08, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
I think Twelfth Night should be moved. Also, for the more developed play articles, we include the alternate titles in the "Date and texts" section. So we could make that an established guideline... Wrad 15:13, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
There definitely needs to be a reference to the full title of the plays in the first section. Perhaps " Hamlet or The Tragedy of Hamlet: Prince of Denmark is a play by...". In any case, without such a reference the page is incomplete and as an encyclopaedia this is unacceptable. Wikipedia is often considered the definitive source on such issues and to omit something as significant as Hamlet's full title is not right. I think that the title of the page should be "Hamlet", while the opening line should be The Tragedy of Hamlet: Prince of Denmark, reflecting the second Quarto title. SolomonFreer 04:47, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
I still agree with Wrad and Dionysos on this - stick with the common title in the lead, and then list the variant titles in the text section in context of the quartos that they were attached to. This will allow for a uniform approach to all the plays, regardless of how many titles they might have or how extensive those titles might be. Smatprt 05:33, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
A cri de coeur: I thought this morning that I might be able to do the Project some service by swapping Twelfth Night, or What You Will with Twelfth Night (via an intermediate stage), as there seems to be a consensus about the move up above here. I started - at about 1130am GMT - by moving the latter to Twelfth Nights, which worked OK, but when I tried to move the former to Twelfth Night (with a view to then moving TNs to TN oWYW), there was a red error message saying that I couldn't do it. I waited 5 minutes or so before trying again (on the basis that WP needs time to update its files), but same result, so, as I was due to go out to lunch, I gave up and moved Twelfth Nights back to Twelfth Night, which, again, worked OK, though it's left an unnecessary redirect in its wake (sigh!). Should I have waited longer for the updating stuff to take effect? Would another time of day have been better? Or did I make some fundamental mistake? There I was, all ready to deal with double redirects and so forth, so it was all a bit frustrating.... -- GuillaumeTell 22:15, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
I put in a request and the page has been moved to Twelfth Night now. DionysosProteus 20:45, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
This is just for future reference. I found it interesting:
All other articles are below 1000 edits. King Lear weighs in at a dismal 680 edits. These are interesting trends. Wrad 03:19, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
I wanted to get the project's opinion on my suggested change to the Shakespeare template. So what do you think? Remember 16:49, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
I like it! Bardofcornish 21:26, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
I notice that an infobox has appeared on Romeo and Juliet. I'm not so fond. Is this covered in the project's standardization guidelines? If not, perhaps we should agree on a standard for or against? DionysosProteus 16:17, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Having reviewed those discussions I notice that there is an aspect that did not appear to arise. I am in support of infoboxes, but only under certain circumstances--namely, where the information that they provide is "buried" in large blocks of text, or where an article is under-developed and the information they provide has not made its way into the main body of the article yet. In the case of Romeo and Juliet, however, I don't see either of those situations. It repeats the list of characters, which is laid out in almost identical format further down in the main body and the rest of the info is provided in the first paragraph of the intro. Those are the 'neutral' reasons. Against inclusion, it doesn't look as good as the previous layout to my eyes. We also have two templates at the end of the article that summarise info in a visual way. I'm going to leave it for the moment to wait to hear what others think. DionysosProteus 16:42, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
I do apologise but hadn't seen this discussion before creating a few infoboxes on some Shakespearean tragedy pages. I would argue that they are useful visually as they are at the top of the page and are easily digestible. It also means that it falls in line with many other wikipedia pages. I don't see much point in purposefully holding back Shakespeare pages while other pages become more advanced. I also think that they will be helpful for the large amount of students who come to wikipedia to find out information about these plays. I think that wikipedia needs to have more of a uniform approach to give a "user-friendly" look. If you are dead against this, I apologise and please remove them should you feel that it is necessary. Wikiadam 17:04, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Hello all. A quick question that I have been asked and don't know the answer to: Were any of Shakespeare's plays first performed in a private theatre? I know Macbeth might have revised for indoor, but are there any clear examples of a Shakespeare première at Blackfriars? DionysosProteus 17:12, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Many thanks, DionysosProteus 23:45, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Right now we have Hamlet going strong for FA status, and we may want to have a new GA project collaboration. The most logical one right now seems to be The Tempest, since several editors are already working on it. Shall we have that article be our GA collaboration and Hamlet our FA one? Wrad 00:27, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
The Tempest sounds good, because it's already being worked on, but perhaps we want to do a history (I was thinking Henry V), just to well-rounded? Bardofcornish 12:00, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Hello all. My sources are proving a little contradictory with regard to Philip Sidney's Defense of Poesy. I know that it was written sometime between 1580-1583, but it is its first publication date that's tripping me up. I'm referring to Marvin Carlson's Theories of the Theatre, which says on p.80 that it was first published in 1593 but then on p.82 gives it as Defense of Poesy ( 1595). The other sources I have here aren't much help (Dramatic Theory and Criticism, The Cambridge Guide to Theatre) as they give the date of composition rather than publication. Might someone have a source to hand that settles it? Thanks, DionysosProteus 20:01, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
There is a proposal up for a project focusing on general, basic literature articles here. Please add your name if you are interested. Thanks, Wrad 21:02, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I asked for some help regarding Dating Hamlet, at the help desk, here: Wikipedia:Help desk#Moves from userspace to mainspace. There seems to be a view among some of the help-deskers that an article on that subject is inappropriate for Wikipedia. Does anyone here have a view? See also the discussion I initiated at Talk:Hamlet#Date. AndyJones 17:14, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I think it is time that we applied it for at least B-class, the quality of it at least meets that. I myself, would like some support before I go for B-class. Please give your OPINION. Thanks, Meldshal 42 00:25, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
I have split the List of Shakespearean characters article into two separate articles encompassing Characters with names from A-K and names from L-Z. I preserved the existing order of characters, and duplicated sources. I have also removed most double-redirects, sending redirects to the A-K article unless it's clear that a particular character from L-Z was intended. I also corrected the template to refer to both pages, and amended the Table of Contents to link between the two articles for easy navigation. As the article was ranked #14 on the list of longest articles in the main article space, it was a good candidate for a split. The history of the page is preserved at the A-K article. ZZ Claims ~ Evidence 17:58, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I am bringing this conversation over from the Hamlet discussion page [ [1]] as it may effect more than just the one play. I think it important we have a good discussion on this and see what we can come up with. Smatprt ( talk) 08:08, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
So what is up with the section ordering? I tried to put the article into the project format and was reverted. Happy to discuss (again), but haven't we hashed this out? The following order, developed on the project page [ [2]], worked very well for R&J, yes? Smatprt ( talk) 20:00, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
1 Sources 2 Date and text 3 Characters 4 Synopsis 5 Analysis 5.1 Dramatic structure 5.2 Language 5.3 Themes and motifs 5.3.1 Love 5.3.2 Fate and chance 5.3.3 Light and dark 5.3.4 Time 5.4 Other approaches 5.4.1 Psychoanalytic 5.4.2 Feminist 5.4.3 Gender studies 6 Influences 7 Performances and adaptations 7.1 Stage history 7.1.1 Shakespeare's day 7.1.2 The Restoration 7.1.3 19th century 7.1.4 20th century 7.2 Music 7.3 Screen 8 See also 9 References 10 External links Smatprt's posting ends here
? Sources
?.1 Origins in Legend
?.2 Ur-Hamlet
Yes? AndyJones ( talk) 20:17, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Exactly my concern. In Hamlet's case, should we expand on Andy's idea and consider making a seperate article for Sources, Dates and Text (perhaps as part of his good work on the dating) and then reduce those sections to a more reasonable length? If those sections were shorter, that would address Roger's issue of length. The context argument goes both ways and knowing a little history up front about where the stories came from also makes sense. in any case, I'm all for consistancy, which was my main concern. It would be nice to stick with the project guidlines until we come up with something else. A lot of good discussion went on when they were developed. Smatprt ( talk) 22:53, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
From a purely rhetorical or pleasurable consideration, it strikes me that jumping straight into the characters and story is a more satisfying read for your 'average' browser (whoever they may be). Isn't where the story came from a secondary consideration to the story itself? Even more so for the textual history, even when that is as central to a consideration of a play's significance as it is with Hamlet? I would suggest considering a move down below the performance history or analysis; its the plot, meaning and performance that's the juicy stuff (IMHO). I don't mean to stir up hard-won debates (if there were any), or to impugn the suggested structure; I'm kind of assuming that it's followed from the editions of books, and the that the thought that a web page article might organise differently wasn't obvious. We're writing about theatre, so I guess all I'm suggesting is a little theatricality or razzamataz (in an encyclopedic and verified way, of course) in the presentation. I suspect the audience might start shuffling and a-coughing. Just a thought. DionysosProteus 06:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
As an example of how varied sections can be, compare Hamlet to The Tempest, both of which we are working on. Hamlet has multiple textual issues and a wealth of scholarship on dating and sources, causing us to have a divided sources section and separate sections for Dating and Texts. The Tempest was never published in Quarto before the First Folio, and thus has very few text issues. Sourcing and dating issues have proved to be an entirely different story, but The Tempest article will never merit a separate Texts section, as Hamlet clearly does. Wrad ( talk) 19:35, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to go ahead and take the characters section out of the guidelines if there are no objections. Wrad ( talk) 22:40, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
We could put them all on an infobox. Just kidding! I don't really like the idea of listing all the characters in an article. I just don't see how that would make a good article. I'm trying to reconcile it... Let's go back to Hamlet as a clear example. Is there anything you don't like about how characters are represented in that article? Wrad ( talk) 03:03, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) I'm not just regurgitating, I'm trying to figure out what the assumptions of your argument are - they seem to be shifting. Your new position seems incompatible with that assumption to me. Awadewit | talk 08:54, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) But this is not just about the mechanics of producing plays (and I really find it hard to believe that professionals would need to rely on wikipedia's list of characters) - this is also about what an encyclopedia is. It is not just a listing of information. As I stated before, there are more appropriate venues for that, such as wikisource, where the play itself can be copied. An article about the play does not need to have a dramatis personae. Awadewit | talk 08:54, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) Think about the number of people who read Shakespeare plays this way: almost all high schools in the United States require their students to read at least one Shakespeare play, British secondary schools do as well, the more well-to-do schools in India do the same.... This is simply logic - the number of people required to read Shakespeare outstrips the number of people who have the means or opportunity to attend a Shakespeare performance. Awadewit | talk 08:54, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
(unident) You're not really responding to the argument here about wikipedia's role as an encyclopedia or its credibility, which I feel are important considerations as well. I stand by my suggestion that moving the list to another page or relying on wikisource are the two best solutions. Awadewit | talk 08:54, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Has the thought occurred to anyone else that if we put R&J up for FAC now or soon, we might be able to snag the front page for Valentine's Day, 2008? (Well, I think it'd be cute...) - Malkinann ( talk) 22:02, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I've followed the above discussions with interest, whithout chiming in much, but I find I have two things I'm bursting to say:
1. Our articles MUST be useful to the person who doesn't know anything about the subject. We can be brilliant if we absolutely have to, but the core purpose of an encyclopedia, especially a populist one like Wikipedia, is to get the main points over for the complete beginner.
2. While it's not wrong to have a project framework, it is absolutely wrong to stick rigidly to the framework as it stood when it was thrashed out, rather than learning from the experience of editing articles and updating the framework accordingly. AndyJones ( talk) 13:49, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Wow. Has anyone else noticed some excellent article expansion going on in several play articles lately? Take a look at recent edits to Richard III', A Midsummer Night's Dream, The Taming of the Shrew, and Titus Andronicus. Several people seem to be taking the guidelines on this page to heart! Wrad ( talk) 02:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm pleased to report that I've finished "my bit", that is to say, the Afterlife section, of the collaboration on the Tempest article. I don't mean that that bit is perfect or finished, just that I've done as much as I'm going to do. I'm probably switching my attentions back to the FA drive at Hamlet for a while. AndyJones ( talk) 21:49, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
There is a deletion controversy going on here, please take part on its talk page. Wrad ( talk) 18:26, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Just letting everyone know. Wrad ( talk) 23:57, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Now that Hamlet has reached FA status, what's up next? I personally think A midsummer's night's dream would be a good choice, simply because so many people are already working on it. Other suggestions would be Romeo and Juliet it already has GA status, Twelfth Night...what do others think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bardofcornish ( talk • contribs) 21:02, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't want us to end up speard too thinly. How about:
Can we revisit the issue of Character Lists in the play articles? We made the exception in the Hamlet article and deleted the list (then turned it into a button way down at the bottom of the article), but I still believe that was a mistake. Is there a Wiki-wide policy that applies to plays in general? (not that all rules should be automatically followed!). In any case, in the Hamlet discussion, only 3 or 4 editors chimed in who wanted to do away with the Characters, but that was enough to create a (small) consensus so the character list is no longer part of the main article. Before this slowly happens with every article - or instead of revisiting the issue another 36 times, can we attempt a discussion with more participants? Also - should the discussion happen here - or on the theatre project page which, I assume, would apply to many more plays here on Wikipedia?
For the record, since the works are first and foremost, plays, I think it an essential ingredient to a good theatre article to have the character lists, as given to us in the First Folio, included in the entry. I do not believe having the lists clutters up the article, but rather is an essential guide to making the overall article more understandable and easier to follow (especially with the larger casts or plays with similar sounding character names, of which there are many. I also find the lists an excellent reference tool for students, teachers, actors, designers, directors and anyone who travels with their laptop instead of hauling around plays and other reference books. Smatprt ( talk) 02:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I see. However, there is one bit which hasn't quite been spelled out--that is, let's say the article Characters in the Tempest were created. Ariel already has his/her own article, so how would we represent him/her on the Characters in... article? Bardofcornish ( talk) 20:32, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I see that a bot has added a string of fair use queries to Shakespeare on screen. Does anyone have a view on whether these images should be retained and, if yes, what should be done?
There seems to be a general tightening-up on images in the last few days. I notice the commons image at Romeo and Juliet on screen has gone, too. AndyJones ( talk) 13:51, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Can I direct your attention to the discussion I've started regarding a recent page move, at Talk:Hamlet on screen#Page move? (Perhaps discuss there not here?) AndyJones ( talk) 20:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
There's a backlog at WP:GAN and Ga reviewers are calling on wikiprojects to chip in more and more. I just put Banquo up for GA and would like to invite anyone in this project who hasn't previously edited that page to review the article (or any other article at GA, for that matter) in order to help with the backlog. Besides, Banquo is pretty cool! Especially when he's a ghost. Wrad ( talk) 21:51, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
What rule of thumb would you suggest for the Importance rating for articles such as Judith Quiney and other family members? My initial thought is that these would be rated High importance, but as you may or may not have noticed, my primary interest is in the purely biographical articles, and the purely biographical bits of general WP:BARD articles; such that I don't entirely trust my instincts on this.
Any thoughts on what rating these merit? -- Xover ( talk) 08:32, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
User: Mywood2004, who is translating William Shakespeare for a Chinese wikipedia, has pointed out to me that Cymbeline was wrongly listed as a comedy rather than a tragedy. I have moved it on the William Shakespeare article lists, but I don't know how to edit the "William Shakespeare and his works" template. Since the other plays are listed there as per the First Folio, I think Cymbeline should be too. It also looks like there are other articles where the listing is wrong. qp10qp ( talk) 15:29, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi! Following a request from Wrad over at the Spoken Wikipedia project, I have started to produce a spoken version of William Shakespeare. Progress has been reasonable so far, although I also have an article up for WP:FAC so I can't devote all my time to it at the moment. Anyway, although I'm reasonably familiar with Shakespeare's works, I may just need some clarification on a few pronunciations. If project members could watch out here for any requests for help, I would be grateful! (I am comfortable with IPA transcriptions.) Thanks, Hassocks5489 ( talk) 18:09, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I have finished recording, and am now ready to edit and upload. However, I would like to have confirmation of the accepted pronunciations of these names from the text, before I start the editing process. (I think I've got them right, but want to make sure!!)
Thanks in anticipation! Hassocks5489 ( talk) 21:06, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I've nominated Act 1, Scene 5 of "Romeo & Juliet" for deletion, thought you might like to be made aware of it. - Malkinann ( talk) 12:02, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone have access to volume 5 of Shakespearean Criticism: Criticism of William Shakespeare's Plays & Poetry, from the First Published Appraisals to Current Evaluations, for making a Critical history section for Romeo and Juliet? Thank you. - Malkinann ( talk) 20:22, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I've been working at this article for awhile and it's starting to really take shape. These characters are some of the most unusual and versatile I've dealt with so I'm wondering if a few of you could drop by and have a look and offer suggestions. Wrad ( talk) 04:28, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
First off, hello WP:Bard! This is the first Project I've joined and I'm looking forward to working on it.
Second: I'm planning to go through all the pages on the individual Sonnets and standardise them, as they're currently quite heterogeneous. The main things I've noticed that need doing are:
Additionally, some of the poems lack analysis which it would be nice to add. I've also seen at least one (I forget the number) which refers to the Fair Youth as male in half the article and female in the other. I'm sure other things will come up, too.
So, if anyone has comments or suggestions or wants to help I'd love to hear from them.
Best, Olaf Davis | Talk 19:12, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
"Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford and Henry Wriothesley, 3rd Earl of Southampton Oxford and Southampton, besides having been lovers, are also thought by many to have been - the first - the pseudonymous author of the works ascribed to the historical William Shakespeare, and - the second - the youth known as the Fair Lord to whom most of the Sonnets are dedicated. [27]" --anyone care to comment on the accuracy of this? - PetraSchelm ( talk) 00:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Could some of you please check whether Howard Staunton gives a reasonable picture of him as a Shakespeare scholar. Please leave comments at Talk:Howard Staunton. Many thanks, Philcha ( talk) 16:59, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
As you may have heard, we at the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team recently made some changes to the assessment scale, including the addition of a new level. The new description is available at WP:ASSESS.
Each WikiProject should already have a new C-Class category at Category:C-Class_articles. If your project elects not to use the new level, you can simply delete your WikiProject's C-Class category and clarify any amendments on your project's assessment/discussion pages. The bot is already finding and listing C-Class articles.
Please leave a message with us if you have any queries regarding the introduction of the revised scheme. This scheme should allow the team to start producing offline selections for your project and the wider community within the next year. Thanks for using the Wikipedia 1.0 scheme! For the 1.0 Editorial Team, §hepBot ( Disable) 20:49, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
There seems to still be a Talk page for List of Characters in The Tempest even though the article itself has been merged into The Tempest. Anyone know how to go about fixing that? Xover ( talk) 22:19, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
I notice on the WP:BARD project template the text reads “ […] is part of WikiProject Shakespeare […]” where, e.g., the Biography project uses the phrasing “[…] is within the scope of […]”. I think the latter is better as it doesn't imply ownership as the former does. Unless someone objects I'll change the template accordingly. -- Xover ( talk) 22:26, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
This article is undergoing a peer review right now on the way to FA status. Wrad ( talk) 16:12, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
I happened to read the current version of Baconian theory today, and I have to say it's looking very good. Does anyone want to take a look and perhaps propose it for GA? AndyJones ( talk) 20:09, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi! I'd like to interview your project for the Signpost. It would basically work by me asking you a few starting questions on this page, adding a few as we go on, then editing the conversations down into a newspaper-style interview-article (I'll link the original thread at the bottom). The purpose is to point out the good work you're doing to the project in general, and hopefully to attract more people in. Would you be interested? Shoemaker's Holiday ( talk) 12:11, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Currently, 532 articles are assigned to this project, of which 129, or 24.2%, are flagged for cleanup of some sort. (Data as of 14 July 2008.) Are you interested in finding out more? I am offering to generate cleanup to-do lists on a project or work group level. See User:B. Wolterding/Cleanup listings for details. More than 150 projects and work groups have already subscribed, and adding a subscription for yours is easy - just place the following template on your project page:
If you want to respond to this canned message, please do so at my user talk page; I'm not watching this page. -- B. Wolterding ( talk) 16:38, 5 August 2008 (UTC)