This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
WikiProject Pokémon/Archive 19 page. |
|
Last TP archived on 7:08 UTC, 29 July 2007. All unresolved comments that I found have been copy-pasted here, in addition to a cleaned-up version of the future focus articles segment. Feel free to copy-paste any I might have missed. -- The Raven's Apprentice ( PokéNav| Trainer Card) 08:07, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
General information
Articles
Project templates
Task forces
Last TP archived on 7:08 UTC, 29 July 2007. All unresolved comments that I found have been copy-pasted here, in addition to a cleaned-up version of the future focus articles segment. Feel free to copy-paste any I might have missed. -- The Raven's Apprentice ( PokéNav| Trainer Card) 08:07, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Cleaned out to gut old discussions. Archived FFAs. Shin'ou's TTV ( Futaba| Masago| Kotobuki) 03:36, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
As TTN suggested, I've now created a more condensed version of the Navbar.
Navbar:
Here
To be templated as: {{
Pokémon}}
Intended to replace:
In default of opposition and/or criticism, I will template the consolidated Navbar as {{ Pokémon}}, replace all instances of the other Navbars, and drag them to TfD beginning 20 hours from now. Feedback is appreciated. Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice ( PokéNav| Trainer Card) 16:35, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
IF NO ONE HAS ANY MORE OBJECTIONS, I'LL BE CREATING THE TEMPLATE IN 48 HOURS. -- The Raven's Apprentice ( PokéNav| Trainer Card) 15:24, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Christ. For the staggering number of navboxes that the Wikipedia has, you'd think there was a single, consistent guideline, but there isn't. Some proposals, like AMIB's, are marked as {{ historical}} or rejected. Wikipedia:Navigational templates is mostly a directory of navboxes. Anyway. First, the "unasthetic" is purely opinion and based on one's subjective view. You say it's not. I say it is. Of course it's better if we can get more than four voices here – two for and two against isn't consensus in any regard.
You keep saying that the box is six lines long, that's only because everything is hidden. If you unhide everyuthing, the navbox is enormous. I've never seen WP:WAF used as a reason to merge all articles into a giant box, actually, interesting interpreatation. The reason why I cite Yu-Gi-Oh! as an example is because it's very similar to Pokémon: card game, video games, anime, magna, etc. I realize that this is better organized, appearing to interlock several templates rather than displaying everything in one big blah, but I feel that it still posest he same problems.
There really isn't anything to refute. How do you refute someone's opinion? I could once again go on my thoughts about a navbox that requires a show/hide is too large and should be cut down, but I already made my point above. hbdragon88 18:09, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
By the way, about the WP:WAF thing, I disagree. WAF specifically applies toa articles. We should view the articles as one by themselves rather than focus on the navboxes. The only way that they will be strengthened is through finding sourced analysis of them from significant third-party sources, not through consolidating their navboxes. hbdragon88 01:54, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
It's easy to batch convert them when you have all of the originals (even though it took an hour). :p
http://www.pokebeach.com/kensugimori/wikipedia.zip
Also, could you change that one statement to: "Larger and transparent images are available there."
Could you guys tell me when you have downloaded them so I can delete the ZIP? Thank you! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Water Pokemon Master ( talk • contribs).
Zapper, just tag any images that aren't used in articles any more with {{subst:orfud}}, and some admin will be by to delete them. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 06:57, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
OK, discuss away. TTN 14:55, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I haven't really been discussing because I don't have much to add that isn't already said. You want a vote, then merge. Merge alot, we don't need to be a freaking pokedex! There's better pokedex resources than Wikipedia could ever be: Wikipedia's policy on verifiability means it will never get scoops from nintendo like Serebii, it's not a game guide, and the wiki software isn't suited to useful tables like Veekun's dex has. Get it? You want the old info, when you goto Bulbasaur and are directed, go to the top of the page, click the 'redirected from Bulbasaur' link, then click the history tab to look at past versions. And what Pokemon ruled England? England is more important than Nintendo, regardless of which one has more bearing on your life personally. :P There's books written by historians on all of them, with sources and verifability moreso than any work of fiction that is less than 20 years old. Spriteless 15:26, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I have not split up the discussion. This is the merge discussion. The above is about why this discussion should take place along with some random bits of discussion. I want this to be over and final. I don't want people to say "Oh, that wasn't a proper discussion" for some pointless reasons. TTN 16:51, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not trying to stop you, but I still disagree, I already said my point earlier. TheBlazikenMaster 16:38, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
You know, I used to like this project, but ever since this started happening, I've lost my respect for what's going on here. I honestly thought that the evo line pages were a good choice, but, then everyone seemed to forget about the evo line pages when the mass merging started happening. If you want to do this and kill off this WikiProject, then do so; I simply don't like the idea of such a project ending. So, if you need me, I'll be at Bulbapedia, where the site isn't overrun by "oh, this cruft doesn't belong on such a respected site as this, so I'll merge it." Leprechaun Gamer 17:04, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Bulbasaur is an article of high quality and should be kept and if possible restored to FA status. I can see no conceivable reason to merge it. Tim! 17:15, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Users Celestianpower, A link to the Past, Tim!, Leprechaun Gamer, Master Spider, Killer Chihuahua, Alf and I have all stated in this discussion, in the above discussion, or on the article talk page that we are not in favour of the merge and have stated various reasons for this. This can't be ignored, and doing so is a backhanded way to force the appearance of consensus. I see Zxcvbnm, TTN and Raven not in favour, and disregarding the reasoning given. Celestianpower has given specific reasons where this character was emphasised. Not a single person has in fact, said keep it because I like it, but pointed out it's a major character, there's enough info for an article, Wikipedia is not paper and so forth. As no policy violations have been pointed out either, and the FAR of the FA did not lead any of the reviewing editors to suggest the article doesn't exist, there is hardly consensus to merge the article. Claiming that it's too crufty is not a defence either, Wikipedia is here to capture the sum of human knowledge, not just the knowledge a particular person thinks is worthy. pschemp | talk 18:08, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
The people arguing a merge keep trying to boil everyone's arguments down to simple acronyms. Never in this discussion has anyone said they think it should be kept because they like it, or because other articles are similar. Please read our actual words. You may, of course, disagree, but please stop trying to refute them by pointing to acronyms (look, I can do it too). — Celestianpower háblame 18:47, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, looks like I missed out on a lot.
Bulbasaur represents the failure of the original goal of WP:PAC: specifically, to write a complete article on every single Pokémon. This is meant as no sleight to the admirable work of Celestianpower and everyone else who brought that article up to featured quality in every sense but one, but the lack of that one quality is why we were back to revisiting the Poképrosal and merging the Pokémon into lists.
That quality is
notability. There just aren't the reliable sources who have seen fit to comment on the vast majority of Pokémon. We don't have the raw material to do anything but write our own
original synthesis of primary sources and personal observation.
It's why Bulbasaur was defeatured, it's why it is no longer a Good Article, and it's why all of our FARs and GARs end up defeaturing or degooding our articles.
I would be elated to be proven wrong. It's why I hated to send Torchic to FAR. But, unless someone can find the sources to use to build individual articles, it's time to continue with the merges. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 00:55, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Due to Charizard's appeal, it has featured in many lines of soft toys
In 2004, the "Charizard Medium Plush" was part of a major recall
So can we go merge both Charizard and Bulbasaur now? This thing's been sitting a day without any objections raised. -- The Raven's Apprentice ( PokéNav| Trainer Card) 02:42, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
I refute that it's not notable and carries as much crap as you think. Either take it to AfD or RfC or something. SmallPotatoes 06:09, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
The reason that I want you to read it is because you don't actually understand the guideline. It directly relates to WAF (which is what the proposal makes clear). How exactly can you follow one but not the other anyways? So going with WAF, we must give real world info, such as development and reception. TTN 14:53, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
So what became of the discussion? Can Bulbasaur have its own page? Lord Sesshomaru
I believe this merging ideas are, shall I say, not-clever?
How long are we keeping this open? There isn't any real discussion going on, and there is still no reason to keep the article. The attempt at out of universe information is just drawing fluff from indiscriminate places, and it certainly isn't showing any potential. TTN 20:54, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
No, it is not just my opinion. This information has to assert a level of notability. You cannot do that by saying "This character has voice actors." You need some of the things outlined in WAF, which is the consensus of what needs to present to assert notability. If you're somehow asserting that because Bulbasaur is "notable", that this information works, please read over the guideline again. The information asserts the notability, nothing else. And if you're really saying that you think it is just good enough, you think that all Pokemon that have appeared in the anime are notable, which obviously isn't what you actually believe. Thus, we need substance.
Just going over it quickly: Unless non-trivial sources are used, the Conception and creation can be trimmed to a paragraph. Characteristics needs to be one paragraph. The video game section can be trimmed to one paragraph (single game mentions are unneeded unless the game has a major impact or the game is based around it). Anime shows the unneeded plot summary. It can be trimmed down to one or two paragraphs to give a description of the two major Bulbasaurs in the series. All TCG sections are going to be cut on the keepers. Manga, if kept at all, only needs two sentences, though it can be fluffed up to a paragraph. The books are fine, but a single toy mention is unneeded unless backed by reception or something. TTN 19:49, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
NO!!! I disagree on merging, 100%!! Don't please!! >:( -- 68.97.69.115 19:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I hate merging myself. however, since it's required, we have to merge Bulbasaur! Why should he stand out
I don't think we should mearge. 69.202.119.212 18:39, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
So, has anyone lately come up with any new arguments not to merge, or any new references for any articles? I've heard talk about Bulbasaur, Charizard, and Lugia, but when I go to look at those articles, none of them even begin to solve the sourcing problems raised in the Torchic FAR.
So what's up? - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 18:46, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I merged it into a list, I didn't include any anime appearance since they weren't important enough in my opinion. Maybe the Deoxys movie is important, I just copied the biological section, if that's the wrong way to do it, please tell me the best way to merge, I need to know the best way to merge (if I didn't merge this right) because I'm going to merge Huntail tomorrow. TheBlazikenMaster 00:38, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
I finished the following merging today:
I will leave Raichu unmerged, since it's notable for being the evolution of the most notable pokémon. I think we need to discuss about Raichu before merging it. TheBlazikenMaster 13:23, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
and will do Gengar, after that I'm finished with all the pokémon on MY watchlist, but we still got long way to go. But we're almost there. TheBlazikenMaster 16:46, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
P.s. Except Raichu, I'm not entirely sure if that one is notable or unnotable. TheBlazikenMaster 16:47, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Remember, notable = sources. Where are the sources discussing Raichu? - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 17:11, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
-- The Raven's Apprentice ( PokéNav| Trainer Card) 08:01, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Basically, we should start actively focusing on getting certain articles unmerged from the list (like I am with Charizard) over getting them merged. The non-notable ones WILL get merged, so someone has to work against that with potentially notable ones. - A Link to the Past (talk) 18:33, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Wow...Whew. Sorry, been stuck in the real world for a few days without a computer, but I'm glad that we seem to have finally come to some sort of agreement. I would try to at least get the rest of the legendaries from the 4th generation and the Regis their own articles, but maybe we will get some more information on them when the next few movies and games come out. Until then, I look forward to seeing the articles mentioned saved from merging. Cheers. Leprechaun Gamer 03:46, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm thinking we should all work on the lists in order so no images get missed. Anyone wanting to continue can start with List of Pokémon (61-80). Lets also try to stick with consistency. (Like first image, then pokemon template, paragraph description, then break.) Progress should probably be updated here so if any of us want to jump in, we know where to start from. - WarthogDemon 17:16, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I was looking through many of the seperate pokemon articles. Wormadam-Buizel (not sure which other ones) have a LOT of game-guide stuff on them, like "____ has high (Attribute), but amazingly low (other attribute). It is hard to level up, due to its limited movepool. However, it can learn the powerful attack...". I assume people are too busy watching the lists, or merging, but can we keep an eyes out for this? Crowstar Vaseline-on-the-lens-Jitsu! fwends! 18:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I posted a question here a couple of days ago and because individual Pokémon pages can go for a while without being checked, unless there is vandalism, I decided to bring it up here too. Rather than reposting the question, I'll just provide the link so this talk page won't get clogged up with what may be repeat answers if users see one page and not the other. - Saturn Yoshi THE VOICES 22:09, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm very impressed that the huge amount of Pokémon articles is being converted to list format. I was wondering which ones are staying as individual articles, and how that's being determined. Obviously independently notable ones like Pikachu, but should Golduck really have its own article? Andre ( talk) 01:41, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Could someone please finish merging the necessary articles into List of Pokémon (241-260)? It is going to make you look bad if you only half-ass it, and someone on Talk:Mudkip just pointed that Marshtomp is still unmerged. - Jéské ( v^_^v) 22:37, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
In merging, do the talk pages have to redirect to the talk page of the new article, as well? I'm getting tired of replying to responses at Talk:Mudkip when the article it's a TP of no longer exists (except as a rd). - Jéské ( v^_^v) 00:46, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Not sure if this has been discussed anywhere, but I think it would benefit these pages if the origins of the pokemon names were covered. This is as valuable to the average reader as the original Japanese language name, as many people don't know that Pikachu means electric mouse or that Ho-Oh is a pallindrome of the Japanese name for "phoenix" I think adding the name origins from the original pages, or something close to them, would help the average reader's understanding of the pokemon. 75.109.33.107 18:52, 3 August 2007 (UTC)Turk
Has anyone noticed that our current focus specie article, Lugia, has been merged into List of Pokémon (241-260)? I thought that merging Lugia would be put on hold depending on wheather we decide to merge it or not. Leprechaun Gamer 12:36, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Just posting here for those who don't have the WP:VG on their watchlist. I'm running a script that will check all external links on articles, the results are available for viewing at -links:Template:Pokeproject. — Dispenser 02:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
After a ridiculous edit war, half of which I'm to blame for, a question has been raised with Ho-Oh. Apparently the name is similar/identical to the Japanese name of Fenghuang. Should Ho-Oh therefore be a disambig page? (And note that at this point I think it does; it just took me a while to completely understand what the user was talking about.) - WarthogDemon 06:11, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Let's copy all of the individual Pokémon articles (the articles about each Pokémon as they were before being merged) and their images to the Pokémon Wikia so that people could still learn about Pokémon. As of now, that wiki barely has any information in it, and the easiest way to learn sourced and detailed information about Pokémon is to look in the article history pages, as I have been doing (people new to wikis won't know about this, however, so they miss out).-- Qwetzalquoatal 06:38, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Wikia is a hosting service for many different wikis, with different objectives and different licenses. If nobody really wants to revive the Pokémon Wikia wiki, then there's little need to transfer the old pages over. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 19:03, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
The Annex will probably be ready soon; that's a place to store Wikipedia articles without a Wikia. It might take a few more days to get everything established; I have to talk to Renmiri some more. — Deckill er 10:55, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I have re-created the Torchic article because it is a featured article, which means that it was once prominently displayed on the Main Page.-- Qwetzalquoatal 06:42, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
The lists of Pokemon are almost exclusively game guide material or in-universe information. They do a very poor job of asserting notability, and should probably be deleted.-- Nydas (Talk) 07:18, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Nydas, I'm trying to tell you it's much better than the articles were, they were full of unneeded plot summary or game guide. TheBlazikenMaster 21:45, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I find myself agreeing with Nydas in this case. In order to avoid original research, game guide, fancruft etc, the list articles are based almost entirely on Pokedex information. However, Pokedex information is inherently in-universe. I can't see how we can fix this to make them out-of-universe, because we don't have enough out-of-universe sources. (Though, of course, I'll be very happy to be proven wrong) Bhamv 06:24, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
De-merging the lists creates another problem: hundreds of non-notable articles. Heck, the list articles fail to show notability either, but it is an improvement. I'd rather see the approach to the list articles change by following WP:WAF. This is one of those scenerios where there is a lot to mention, but not enough real-world information to show notability either way: I think lists in this scenerio is the best compromise available. — Deckill er 12:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I'd hate to bring this up again, but no one seems to be listening to my earlier comment. Lugia, our current focus specie article, has been merged into List of Pokémon (241-260) and I don't know how to fix that. For one thing it is our current focus article, and at least until such time that it isn't, it should stay as an article. Second, I thought we agreed to keep Lugia and a few other articles for the time being, so that we can discuss why they should or should not be merged. So, either we revert the merge and keep it its own article for a while, or we change the current focus article to something else, and either way, we talk about what we're doing. Leprechaun Gamer 11:48, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
"I think it is unusual that Mew is not considered significant enough to be expanded currently, though Mewtwo is. Mew has had several notable things, such as being in Pokemon Snap, something not all Pokemon made it in, featured as a point bonus when found in a pokeball in Super Smash Bros, has had two strong movies, much like Mewtwo, actually is able to be captured by the Mew Glitch. It seems like it should receive a main article outlining these aspects. -- Nerdzrool 17:29, 9 August 2007 (UTC)"
There is an editor in the Pokemon Movie Articles which insists on keeping the trivia and adding "Pikachu the Movie" logos to EVERY pokemon movie article. He also insists on adding a Japanese poster to every article. This, to me, seems out of manual of style, as "Pikachu the Movie" is not mentioned in any of the articles, and there is already an English poster in the article. Every movie has posters/dubs in other languages, that's no reason to add an image of every cover of every movie. Anyone agree/disagree with adding these things? What about trivia? see WP:Trivia regarding trivia in articles. Spigot Map 00:11, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Bloody hell... Ok, I agree with SpigotMap in this case. The Japanese movie posters aren't necessary on the English Wikipedia; the differences between the posters is at best trivial, and the Japanese release dates can be inserted into the text of the article itself if deemed necessary. The Pikachu movie logos are also unnecessary because they add no new information to the article. Additionally, according to Wikipedia's guidelines trivia sections should be minimized, with the relevant parts integrated into the main article text if possible, and the trivial parts removed.
Are these images related to the articles? Undoubtedly. But are they relevant to the articles, do they improve the articles? No and no. As such, they become extraneous and unnecessary. Also, too many non-free images might stretch the Wikipedia Fair Use rationales.
Finally, maybe you two should try to cool down and, for lack of a more elegant phrase, get off your high horses. I notice from your user contribution pages that you never tried to talk things out on a talk page, either a Pokemon movie talk page or each other's talk page. You just started edit warring, warning each other, and reporting each other to administrators. That doesn't work, it just gets you both blocked. Talk things out, discuss your differences in a rational and civil manner, reach a consensus. The administrator Angus Lepper did not intervene in the content dispute itself, he told you to calm down and stop edit warring. Bhamv 06:21, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Workadded is at it again. I removed all the images he added and also most of the trivia sections, only for him to revert it again with no reason listed. In his reverting, he removed trivia tags and added his japanese posters and pikachu the movie images back to the articles. Anyone have any ideas on this? Spigot Map 22:04, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
<de-indent>Heh amazing! On another note, I'd just leave the articles alone until an admin reviews it, this guy will just keep going until he gets blocked again, which I'm sure he will. I think it's still viewed as a content dispute and he's broken the 3RR, don't break it with him. Spigot Map 22:35, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm not a frequent Wikipedia editor but I am a pokemon fan. I was a little upset recently about the article merges. However, a lot of people have been improving Bulbpedia quite a bit. I remember a couple of months ago it was worse than the Wikpedia's article. Check it out now. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Bulbasaur_(Pokémon) That's convincing evidence that all individual pokemon pages, INCLUDING legendaries and starters should be merged. Bulbpedia has vastly improved. Stop complaining and head to Bulbpedia and improve it if you don't like what's going on. I can rest easy knowing there's no good arguement against this. If bulbpedia is laggy? Try improving your internet connection or computer, or just deal with it. Feel free to yell at me now. 70.104.16.118 22:50, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Good idea. Using Wikia appropriately is a great idea, and a good compromise; those who want a comprehensive pokemon encyclopedia can edit there, and those who want to work on a general scholarly overview can edit here. External links can be provided to Bulbapedia for "further reading". That's what Final Fantasy has done. — Deckill er 02:50, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I know this is kind of weird, but is there any thought of Poliwhirl having its own article. I, doing research on charizard, have now hit 2 full references to Poliwhirl, one noting that "For example, the Pokemon named Poliwhirl has a belly decorated with a little whirl--Tajiri's memory of the transparent skin of a tadpole with its coiled innards visible beneath." (Time magazine), and a second noting it as a Popular Pokemon (with Pikachu no less) "Pokemon creatures such as Pikachu (a yellow catlike mite) and Poliwhirl (a disk with bulging eyes) were soon presiding over a media juggernaut, including an animated TV show and trading cards, and appearing on everything from cell phones to hot-dog packages." I believe it is said somewhere that Poliwhirl was one of the first Pokemon created, and the creator of Pokemon's favorite, or maybe that is fan speculation? Either way, it is something to consider, given the huge number of places Poliwhirl used to featured, and the possibility of being Tajiri's favorite Pokemon. Heck, Poliwhirl is larger than Pikachu and centered on time magazine at one point, http://www.dogasu.bulbagarden.net/features/time01.jpg Balladofwindfishes 15:24, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Also noted is that Red from the Manga started with a Poliwhirl and it plays a large role in that. Poliwhirl was included in the first set of Pokemon plush toys, which included Pikachu, Eevee, Charizard, and Snorlax. another TIME (Asian Branch) interview which shows some favoritism to the little guy- TIME: Are the Pokémon names related to those insects? Tajiri: Yeah. Like Nyoromo [Poliwhirl in the U.S.]. It looks like a tadpole. There's little whirls on it because I remembered that when you pick up a tadpole, you can see its intestines because it's transparent.
It also seems to be noted elsewhere that Poliwhirl is infact Tajiri's favorite Pokemon, and the Pokemon he wanted to represent the series, rather than Pikachu, but I havn't been able to find sources other than a good dozen forums. Balladofwindfishes 23:04, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Here is a direct quote from Talk:List of Pokémon (1-20):
This is just a suggestion. Many people seem to be overly upset over the loss of individual articles for each Pokemon. If all the extra information is being put in Bulbapedia anyway, why not put an External Link section at the bottom of every article that is a List of Pokemon and list Bulbapedia as an external source?
And, if you really don't like Bulbapedia that much, then help make Bulbapedia a better place. Every Pokemon discussion article has at least one complainer over this matter. I wasn't on board with this decision either, but it really defeats the purpose of having Bulbapedia if you are going to repeat that stuff here. SuperChencho 05:01, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I added it myself. You can always delete it if anyone thinks it's not a good idea. SuperChencho 05:09, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
So how do you like the sound of this guys? I think this dude deserves some respect for getting this idea. In fact I think we should help him making the idea come true, what do you think? TheBlazikenMaster 08:51, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
It sounds like a great idea, and i'm sure the fellows over at Bulbapedia would enjoy the help improving thier articles. Ageofe 17:51, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Hate to bring up an old topic again. I'm mainly watching/cleaning up the movie articles, but I'd like to get involved with the merging or at least know what the current plan is on merging. Is there a list of the pokemon planned to have their own articles? Is the plans for having evolutionary line articles still in effect or are they all going to the merge lists? It seems to me some people are too partial to certain pokemon even if they aren't notable. I'd think it to be much cleaner to just put most of the pokemon in the lists, and a few notable pokemon have their own articles. Notable being Pokemon that the general public might have heard of, and pokemon that have been featured a lot outside of the game. Even if the Pokemon had a large role in the games/anime, if it had no effect outside of the game, I wouldn't think it to be notable to the average person. Some pokemon have full articles, sure, but that still doesn't make them notable enough to not merge them, it just means someone spent a lot of time to write a long article. Just my thoughts and questions. Spigot Map 14:17, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I have proposed that the expanded versions of Pokémon Red and Blue ( Pokémon Yellow and Pokémon FireRed and LeafGreen) be merged into the main article. Please discuss on the talk page. ~ JohnnyMrNinja 06:46, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Is the FR/LG girl really based on the design of Green, or is this flat-out WP:NOR that needs to go? Requesting here for wider input, as the talk page is rather dead. hbdragon88 00:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm the one who made those claims, a long time ago when I didn't know better. They need to die, die, die. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 01:33, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Guys, is it just me, or is our project page seriously out of date? I am new here and am still trying to figure out the way things work, but I think it's important that we establish what needs to be done around here. There is no mention of the multiple mergers that we got going on among Pokemon articles. The project's focus still lists Lugia and Pokemon Evolution as our subjects of focus.
Just a thought SuperChencho 02:42, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi guys, I'm just an observer to this project, haven't really contributed anything, but some time ago I remember browsing through the pokemon articles and got very excited when I saw the "evolutionary line" series of articles. They were less cluttered than the list articles and can be organized with bigger pictures, etc. What happened to this concept, and why were they all merged with the cluttered lists?
I propose that the list articles be the "hub" articles to the evolutionary line articles, or scrapped and reorganized together.. all those Pokemon crushed up against each other looks a little.. I don't know, strange. Whose idea was that, and who got rid of the evolutionary lines?
Anyway, that's just my 2 cents... DeusExMachina 02:55, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I just want to double check myself. Information regarding Nintendo events do not belong in these lists, correct? - WarthogDemon 00:52, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
To help out in List of Pokémon (301-320) and this project page (I read that non-notable Pokemon are to be merged), I'm new here, but I'd like to help, so I thought I would you let all know in advance. magiciandude ( Talk) ( review) 01:11, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I have got all the Pokemon in List of Pokémon (21-40) except for Pikachu and Jigglypuff (with the latter, I'm not sure it's been agreed to merge). I wasn't sure about Raichu but seeing as Pichu has been merged, I decied to merge Raichu as well. magiciandude ( Talk) ( review) 03:38, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Okay, now I've got List of Pokémon (41-60), the only ones I kept are Golduck becausde it's GA status and Meowth, because I'm not sure. It may look like filling too space with these comments, but I thought everyone should just know. magiciandude ( Talk) ( review) 03:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
This might be a crazy idea but just in case, I'll throw it out on the table. An IP suggested perhaps an image of all types of Unown. Not 28 images, obviously, but how would all in one image look? Good or bad? I'm thinking it would look a little smushed but I don't think it's an absurd suggestion per se. What does everyone think? - WarthogDemon 22:13, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Any individual page on a Pokémon will fail WP:NOTE. -- ÆAUSSIEevilÆ 14:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
As it stands, all of the images on the List of Pokémon (1-20) etc articles do not have fair use rationales. They have a random rationale that ZapperNapper made when he started uploading them last month, and they are not qualified as fair use rationales. Unless there's some reason that he went about doing this, I suggest that anyone who's actually active and gives a shit here go through the 500 images and fix the 500 fair use rationales.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龍) 16:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
This seems to be the reason why it's a good thing to have all the Pokemon images removed; if it's truly the truth that that's the way Wikipedia is supposed to be, then I'm cool with that. What becomes a potential issue in my mind's eye, then, is the question of which Pokemon should have their fair-use image on Pokemon articles in general. Erik Jensen ( Appreciate| Laugh At) 04:36, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Seems like we have two issues, but I can only really help with one.
As for a non-free image of Ken Sugimori, I think that that would be perfectly appropriate. He is a reclusive person, and does not make public appearances. Acquiring a free image of him is basically impossible unless Nintendo is willing to release such an image (as all of his press contact goes through Nintendo).
As for the images in lists, I have no idea. They're illustrating specific sections of the article in a way that text cannot, and the appearances are frequently a subject of discussion in each section, but it is an awful lot of non-free images. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 23:18, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Real members of this project, this is an IP, most of the times IPs are people that don't know crap about Wikipedia. I really believe the IP didn't mean to vandalize (just look carefully at the summaries), so instead of only having warnings, you should try to explain to whoever reverted the images why the images disappeared, believe me, you hate to get into trouble without knowing why you are in trouble. TheBlazikenMaster 01:39, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I'm trying to clean up and source Pokemon Yellow, unfortunately I don't have the instruction booklet for any of the version anymore... does someone have them, scanned or something, so that I could finish up my sourcing? David Fuchs ( talk) 19:06, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
NOTE: This discussion was moved due for ease of use.-- ZXCVBNM 21:20, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
User:Durin removed fair use images from this article, as well as from all of the "List of Pokémon" series up to #200. This was justified under Wikipedia:Non-free content items numbers 3a (Minimal use, as little non-free content as possible) and 8 (Significance, non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic), as well as the user's own guideline for fair use overuse.
However, I do believe that the inclusion of images does not violate fair use law, as the images in question are in low resolution, is depicting one of the subjects in the article for description and critical commentary, and by no means limit the copyright holder's rights to market and distribute their products. In addition, no free alternative to these images exist. This is further explained in the non-free character image rationalization template.
But even if the images are indeed protected under fair use, is this negated due to their inclusion being "excessive" (as per 3a)? As it is stated in Durin's own fair use guidelines, section 6.12, "It's not the quantity but the nature of use that counts as excessive. One image can be excessive in some cases while ten in other cases might not be...How an image is used is the salient point on this aspect, not how many are used." Though there are a large number of fair-use images, a variety of species of Pokemon need an image for description. It is also stated in this section that fair use guidlines are used more on "articles pertaining to the particular thing being depicted, not superset articles such as discographies, list of characters, artist pages, etc." I would agree that if Pokemon characters had their own personal page in addition to this list than yes, the inclusion of images for each would be excessive. However, as this is no longer the case for all Pokemon, the images are needed.
As per section #8, "Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding. Non-free media files are not used if they can be replaced by text that serves a similar function." Yes, one could say that "Pikachu are short, stocky mouse Pokémon that possess short, yellow fur with brown markings covering their backs and parts of their tails...", but an image serves this purpose much better. Obviously no free alternative exists, so we are forced to use the copyrighted material.
I would post a notification about this discussion on Durin's talkpage, but as he has recently left Wikipedia for legal reasons, I doubt that he will return for this discussion. I will, however, notify the various Pokemon Wikiprojects about this discussion. Morgan695 19:49, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I certainly agree with Morgan and personally would support bringing all the images back to where they were, my main reason being that having images to illustrate each distinctive creature (each of which is an important player of the one-and-only world famous Pokemon franchise itself, mind you) would discourage an increase in text-based cruft and unverifiable claims on Pokemon appearance and cultural connotations that would likely be posted even by good-faith users. Gengar's picture would keep away such text like, say, "Gengar is a squat purple ghost-like entity with a complexion practically being an example of rictus, with two short arms, two short legs, two ears on its head, a pair of sinister red eyes, and a backside with an array of hair-like spikes." That sort of material was once in all of the old separate Pokemon pages in separate "appearance" sections, and those were parts of the bad content with the pages in general that eventually prompted consensus to perform a mega-merger into lists, with the idea that in the short sections for each Pokemon we let the images do the talking for how that Pokemon appears. So, the images are too deeply connected with the coverage of the Pokemon to think that removing the images will leave the coverage of the Pokemon species remotely unscathed. Erik Jensen ( Appreciate| Laugh At) 00:24, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
The Pokemon images are just being used as an illustration of the characters in question. Can that honestly be worth legal trouble? And what about all the Digimon images? Does that matter too? They're needed for articles that talk about the characters in question. If by the slim to none chance that Nintendo writes a legal complaint about the images, which I severely doubt they're going to do to a reference tool, then maybe this can be brought up. But right now, this whole wondering about images vs no images is really just a waste of time. Toastypk 02:44, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I really hate to sound like the bad guy here, but I think Durin was right at some points. This is Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, yet here we are with over 500 non-free images under WPP's umbrella alone. I don't think he's right, though, that we cannot compromise, since that is the entire reason we have Fair-Use rationales.
To get to the point, I think we ought to decide now not whether or not we should keep the images, but rather which images to keep and which ones to delete. Hopefully, we'll be cutting down to at least under 100 images which are absolutely needed, not down to 400 if 350 of them are just there for the sake of it.
This might also be a good time to figure out what "absolutely needed" means. To quote from Morgan695 above:
Yes, one could say that "Pikachu are short, stocky mouse Pokémon that possess short, yellow fur with brown markings covering their backs and parts of their tails...", but an image serves this purpose much better. Obviously no free alternative exists, so we are forced to use the copyrighted material.
That is true, it would be difficult to describe Pikachu in that much detail. But is it necessary to describe Pikachu in that much detail? Would a casual reader want Pikachu described (in text) in that much detail, or would they be satisfied with "a stocky mouse covered in yellow fur and brown stripes"? I'm not saying to get rid of Pikachu's image; quite the contrary, since Pikachu is a notable pokemon. But would "Vulpix is a red fox with six tails" not suffice? And wouldn't "Voltorb looks like a large Poke Ball with eyes" be enough? Granted, some are indescribable, such as Gengar and Lugia, but the vast majority of pocket monsters are based on identifiable animals, plants, and inanimate objects and are describable as such.
To summarize, I think it is indeed excessive to delete all of the images, but at the same time it is also excessive to keep all of the images as well. In order to find the balance, we have to figure out how much detail is really needed in describing a monster, and in turn figure out how many images really are necessary and can honestly be rationalized. Regards, You Can ' t Review Me!!! 22:05, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Just reviewed the exact rules regarding the use of the images, my results 1. No free equivalent. Easily we have this. There is no free use images of Pokemon, so check for this one.
2. Respect for commercial opportunities. We arn't taking away from Nintendo at all. If anything we are advertising for them.
3. (a) Minimal number of uses. One per Pokemon isn't too many. If we included the pictures and the sprites, that would be too many, but one or the other seems fine
(b) Minimal extent of use. I wouldn't personally use any of those images for graphical uses. They are clearly lowest possible quality.
4. Previous publication. Nintendo Power's National Pokedex, check done
5. Content. The only other way is by using Original Research descriptions. Images are the best way to stay like an encyclopedia.
6. Media-specific policy We had this, we can just restore it
7. One-article minimum. Easily have this also "For instance, if an editor is actively working on an article in a user-space subpage, it would be unhelpful to delete the images before the article is finished" Which applies to us... ummm there was no warrant at all to delete them, and I question the user's interpretation of the rules.
8. Significance. it is the ONLY way to describe the Pokemon. They are fictional beasts, any decriptions worth reading would be OR and were erased when the articles were being merged anyway.
9. Restrictions on location. It's an article, not anything banned. "They should never be used on templates (including stub templates and navigation boxes), portals, user pages, categories, Help, MediaWiki, or the Project namespace" Our articles do not fall into any of those. Lists are not on that list, despite what some people say.
10. Image description page. We had that, we can bring it back also noted is the final area,
"Enforcement", An image that does not comply with this policy 48 hours after notification to the uploading editor will be deleted." I request, no I demand that the images be brought back until we get a "fair" 48 hours to debate this, since I have yet to see 48 hours of debate BEFORE they were deleted. Balladofwindfishes 00:01, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, the removed fair use images are going to be deleted in less than a week. Fun Pika 20:47, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
To all those of this WikiProject, I'm reporting that the articles above have been fully-protected. I'm also asking that you watchlist BOTH of them (even though Mudskipper isn't a Pokémon), because both, prior to protection, were being attacked by the "So i herd you liek Mudkipz" (sic) meme, and I don't doubt they'll be attacked again when the protection is downgraded (both were semi'd) in two weeks.
If you want more information on what's been going on, see Talk:Mudkip/Archive02, talk to me, talk to User:Ksy92003, or talk with User:Alison. - Jéské ( v^_^v Kacheek!) 19:33, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Does this project have any use for User:Jayvdb/List_of_Pokemon_Afd ? If so, go for it. John Vandenberg 12:30, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
...hasn't been edited for two months now. Is it safe to remove it from my watchlist? TheBlazikenMaster 14:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Talk:List of Pokémon (241-260)#Merger proposal. I have already rebutted; thoughts? - Jéské ( v^_^v Kacheek!) 05:10, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Hey guys!
Could the Poké Ball article be sourced more thouroughly? Like with in-text citations and stuff? Thanks in advance! Zouavman Le Zouave 14:38, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm talking about those that aren't merged. Redirecting isn't enough, those with blank entry should have "Main article:", if someone wanted to merged, they'd have problems having to put the Pokémon's name to the search box, finding the Pokémon, going to that article's history and having to see the last unredirected article. This is NOT what merging means, Remember this: Wikipedia:Wikipedia has no deadline, so don't speed up too much. Redirecting to blank sections is like a motorbiker in so much hurry that he just rides his motorbike to a rock, seriously. I had to bring this to attention because List of Pokémon (301-320) suffers from this. TheBlazikenMaster 22:53, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Sharpedo still redirects to an empty section, along with other pokémon on that page, please fix it. TheBlazikenMaster 14:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
This article is having the same problem, you clearly paid no attention to what I said. There is a difference between merging and redirecting to blank section. Until there is actually content, there should be {{main}} tag and a full article. We are trying to merge, not redirect as much as we can. This is really important, merging is harder, a lot harder if you just redirect to a blank section. You guys seriously need to read about merging articles, and please reply and face your opinion on this, I did make this section for a reason, because I know what merging is and I know that the articles have been merged improperly. TheBlazikenMaster 22:32, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
How about 4 pictures of five pokemon each? We could have one picture, the list of the five right below. And then the second picture, the list of the five below, and so on. Would that work? - Warthog Demon 17:44, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Has anyone tried looking in the game guides for suitable scans at all? I imagine that they may have suitable "group shots" if they detail the stats of each single one. TTN 20:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
What's with that? I'd like to understand why this is being done.-- h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 14:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Someone needs to keep an eye on the list redirects, at least until the request for protection goes through. I just spent a half-hour reverting edits that ILikePikachu used to negate the redirects. Secondly, I note that said user has a beef against the merging. - Jéské ( v^_^v Kacheek!) 18:39, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
It seems that with the massive amounts of edits a day across all the lists that this cruft is working its way in. Just to clarify, I think general consensus is no game locations and only Anime appearances which are a major role in the plot of the series. Information on evolution also seems to be overkill as evolutions are listed on the template for each pokemon. Also the {{-}}s are either getting worked out/deleted or text is being placed below them. Just some things to look for I guess while editing/watching the lists. Spigot Map 00:24, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I would be more specific than that. Just say that it blocks two roads, unless in the anime it's an even greater pain to deal with. hbdragon88 23:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
At Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Sources, there is a proposed guideline on sources in articles in the scope of WP:VG. For example, all Pokémon are in this scope. Your edits and comments are appreciated. User:Krator ( t c) 15:22, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi all, I just thought that it's possible & would be a good idea if we use just one template to cover everything Pokémon-related. With so many templates, all of them being relatively small, it would be great for easy navigation. I'm thinking on putting this on all the articles, but I'd love your feedback first.
Thanks, æt ərnal ðrAعon → 10:12, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
That's odd. TRA proposed something similar, but it failed to catch enough support. Anyways, yeah; I support either of the two gigantic navboxes. You Can ' t See Me! 20:42, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Quite big though understandably so. I like it. - Warthog Demon 20:45, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Once again I must vocally oppose this mega merger of Pokémon templates. it is huge, unwiedly, along with font that is too small – and if made bigger, the box becomes too huge and overpowers the page. I don't mind characters + organizations together, but the species template is long enough to desrve its own template. As an example, {{ Yu-Gi-Oh! Directory}} was similarly huge before I suggested splitting and three users agreed with me. And this isn't new: TRA and I had a long argument over this up above, see #Final draft of consolidated navbar. hbdragon88 05:52, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
The third time? Are you counting the Battle Frontier thing as two encounters? My reason is that I agree with the concept of centralizing navigation, but there comes a point where it gets to be too large and it simply overwhelms the user and destroys the usefulness of the template. The solution is the link the most strongly-linked articles together, such as the core handheld RPG series instead of every spinoff imaginable. Most video game templates follow this philiosophy; they simply provide links to the big list pages. {{ Silent Hill series}} for instance lists Characters, Creatures, and Locations in one row instead of every article possible. The Metal Gear series templates links "characters" in the main {{ Metal Gear series}} template and has a separate {{ Metal Gear characters}} template for the character pages. I much prefer this solution over this huge mega template. hbdragon88 04:01, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Do we really need the Legendary Pokemon template anymore? I mean, the only ones that still have pages are Mewtwo, Deoxys, and (for some strange reason) the Regis. Leprechaun Gamer 12:14, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Common, I'm very disappointed that the images had to go, I bet there is a good reason for that, but there must be a solution to add images. Believe it or not, there is nothing uncylopedic about them, nothing. They describe the creatures like they're supposed to. I have been trying to think, but I can't think of anything, so please help me find a solution. TheBlazikenMaster 20:42, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
This new version of the Pokedex really isn't something I like. It's short, uninformative, and doesn't even let know the user about what it looks like or anything. It's lousy. Like before, we should have them on seperate pages. PRhyu 01:26, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
If anyone wishes to help make a consensus on the numbering of the episodes, please voice on the talk page. Going by air date has been the standard, but apparently, someone wants to make wikipedia official, he states "we most do this". Also, input is needed on the lettering of the episodes. Thanks! Spigot Map 02:01, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
what's with the lack of images for the pokemon? DSDark 13:42, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I know that the merge has been going rather slowly; that's not what I mean. I noticed that in an effort to speed up the merge, focus has gone from salvaging and refining the more important information (namely Dex info) into just getting down whatever is possible so that one can proceed with the redirect. Take Slowbro for example:
Slowbro (ヤドラン, Yadoran in original Japanese language versions) are one of the 493 fictional species of Pokémon creatures from the multi-billion-dollar Pokémon media franchise – a collection of video games, anime, manga, books, trading cards and other media created by Satoshi Tajiri. They are #80 in the National Pokédex.
Slowbro's name is a portmanteau of slow (as in " slow-witted") and bro (as in "brother", probably relating to the fraternal relationship it shares with the Shellder on its tail). Its Japanese name is most likely derived from 宿借り yadokari ( hermit crab). The Shellder which bites on its tail sucks on the aforementioned syrup, and so it is hard to remove. Also toxins which leak from the bite pass into Slowbro, which numbs its immunity to pain even more.
Of all that, only the last two sentences are what we intended to keep while everything else is what we intended to get rid of - Name origin and templated paragraph. I haven't been personally involved in the merge for quite a while now, but for those of you who are, please don't rush. Remember that Wikipedia doesn't have a deadline; take your time and put quality over quantity. You Can ' t See Me! 05:19, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I have noticed that in past several days unregistered users used the lists to make a good moveset, but that's not encyclopedic at all. Can we do something about this? TheBlazikenMaster 17:49, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
WikiProject Pokémon/Archive 19 page. |
|
Last TP archived on 7:08 UTC, 29 July 2007. All unresolved comments that I found have been copy-pasted here, in addition to a cleaned-up version of the future focus articles segment. Feel free to copy-paste any I might have missed. -- The Raven's Apprentice ( PokéNav| Trainer Card) 08:07, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
General information
Articles
Project templates
Task forces
Last TP archived on 7:08 UTC, 29 July 2007. All unresolved comments that I found have been copy-pasted here, in addition to a cleaned-up version of the future focus articles segment. Feel free to copy-paste any I might have missed. -- The Raven's Apprentice ( PokéNav| Trainer Card) 08:07, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Cleaned out to gut old discussions. Archived FFAs. Shin'ou's TTV ( Futaba| Masago| Kotobuki) 03:36, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
As TTN suggested, I've now created a more condensed version of the Navbar.
Navbar:
Here
To be templated as: {{
Pokémon}}
Intended to replace:
In default of opposition and/or criticism, I will template the consolidated Navbar as {{ Pokémon}}, replace all instances of the other Navbars, and drag them to TfD beginning 20 hours from now. Feedback is appreciated. Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice ( PokéNav| Trainer Card) 16:35, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
IF NO ONE HAS ANY MORE OBJECTIONS, I'LL BE CREATING THE TEMPLATE IN 48 HOURS. -- The Raven's Apprentice ( PokéNav| Trainer Card) 15:24, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Christ. For the staggering number of navboxes that the Wikipedia has, you'd think there was a single, consistent guideline, but there isn't. Some proposals, like AMIB's, are marked as {{ historical}} or rejected. Wikipedia:Navigational templates is mostly a directory of navboxes. Anyway. First, the "unasthetic" is purely opinion and based on one's subjective view. You say it's not. I say it is. Of course it's better if we can get more than four voices here – two for and two against isn't consensus in any regard.
You keep saying that the box is six lines long, that's only because everything is hidden. If you unhide everyuthing, the navbox is enormous. I've never seen WP:WAF used as a reason to merge all articles into a giant box, actually, interesting interpreatation. The reason why I cite Yu-Gi-Oh! as an example is because it's very similar to Pokémon: card game, video games, anime, magna, etc. I realize that this is better organized, appearing to interlock several templates rather than displaying everything in one big blah, but I feel that it still posest he same problems.
There really isn't anything to refute. How do you refute someone's opinion? I could once again go on my thoughts about a navbox that requires a show/hide is too large and should be cut down, but I already made my point above. hbdragon88 18:09, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
By the way, about the WP:WAF thing, I disagree. WAF specifically applies toa articles. We should view the articles as one by themselves rather than focus on the navboxes. The only way that they will be strengthened is through finding sourced analysis of them from significant third-party sources, not through consolidating their navboxes. hbdragon88 01:54, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
It's easy to batch convert them when you have all of the originals (even though it took an hour). :p
http://www.pokebeach.com/kensugimori/wikipedia.zip
Also, could you change that one statement to: "Larger and transparent images are available there."
Could you guys tell me when you have downloaded them so I can delete the ZIP? Thank you! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Water Pokemon Master ( talk • contribs).
Zapper, just tag any images that aren't used in articles any more with {{subst:orfud}}, and some admin will be by to delete them. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 06:57, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
OK, discuss away. TTN 14:55, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I haven't really been discussing because I don't have much to add that isn't already said. You want a vote, then merge. Merge alot, we don't need to be a freaking pokedex! There's better pokedex resources than Wikipedia could ever be: Wikipedia's policy on verifiability means it will never get scoops from nintendo like Serebii, it's not a game guide, and the wiki software isn't suited to useful tables like Veekun's dex has. Get it? You want the old info, when you goto Bulbasaur and are directed, go to the top of the page, click the 'redirected from Bulbasaur' link, then click the history tab to look at past versions. And what Pokemon ruled England? England is more important than Nintendo, regardless of which one has more bearing on your life personally. :P There's books written by historians on all of them, with sources and verifability moreso than any work of fiction that is less than 20 years old. Spriteless 15:26, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I have not split up the discussion. This is the merge discussion. The above is about why this discussion should take place along with some random bits of discussion. I want this to be over and final. I don't want people to say "Oh, that wasn't a proper discussion" for some pointless reasons. TTN 16:51, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not trying to stop you, but I still disagree, I already said my point earlier. TheBlazikenMaster 16:38, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
You know, I used to like this project, but ever since this started happening, I've lost my respect for what's going on here. I honestly thought that the evo line pages were a good choice, but, then everyone seemed to forget about the evo line pages when the mass merging started happening. If you want to do this and kill off this WikiProject, then do so; I simply don't like the idea of such a project ending. So, if you need me, I'll be at Bulbapedia, where the site isn't overrun by "oh, this cruft doesn't belong on such a respected site as this, so I'll merge it." Leprechaun Gamer 17:04, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Bulbasaur is an article of high quality and should be kept and if possible restored to FA status. I can see no conceivable reason to merge it. Tim! 17:15, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Users Celestianpower, A link to the Past, Tim!, Leprechaun Gamer, Master Spider, Killer Chihuahua, Alf and I have all stated in this discussion, in the above discussion, or on the article talk page that we are not in favour of the merge and have stated various reasons for this. This can't be ignored, and doing so is a backhanded way to force the appearance of consensus. I see Zxcvbnm, TTN and Raven not in favour, and disregarding the reasoning given. Celestianpower has given specific reasons where this character was emphasised. Not a single person has in fact, said keep it because I like it, but pointed out it's a major character, there's enough info for an article, Wikipedia is not paper and so forth. As no policy violations have been pointed out either, and the FAR of the FA did not lead any of the reviewing editors to suggest the article doesn't exist, there is hardly consensus to merge the article. Claiming that it's too crufty is not a defence either, Wikipedia is here to capture the sum of human knowledge, not just the knowledge a particular person thinks is worthy. pschemp | talk 18:08, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
The people arguing a merge keep trying to boil everyone's arguments down to simple acronyms. Never in this discussion has anyone said they think it should be kept because they like it, or because other articles are similar. Please read our actual words. You may, of course, disagree, but please stop trying to refute them by pointing to acronyms (look, I can do it too). — Celestianpower háblame 18:47, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, looks like I missed out on a lot.
Bulbasaur represents the failure of the original goal of WP:PAC: specifically, to write a complete article on every single Pokémon. This is meant as no sleight to the admirable work of Celestianpower and everyone else who brought that article up to featured quality in every sense but one, but the lack of that one quality is why we were back to revisiting the Poképrosal and merging the Pokémon into lists.
That quality is
notability. There just aren't the reliable sources who have seen fit to comment on the vast majority of Pokémon. We don't have the raw material to do anything but write our own
original synthesis of primary sources and personal observation.
It's why Bulbasaur was defeatured, it's why it is no longer a Good Article, and it's why all of our FARs and GARs end up defeaturing or degooding our articles.
I would be elated to be proven wrong. It's why I hated to send Torchic to FAR. But, unless someone can find the sources to use to build individual articles, it's time to continue with the merges. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 00:55, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Due to Charizard's appeal, it has featured in many lines of soft toys
In 2004, the "Charizard Medium Plush" was part of a major recall
So can we go merge both Charizard and Bulbasaur now? This thing's been sitting a day without any objections raised. -- The Raven's Apprentice ( PokéNav| Trainer Card) 02:42, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
I refute that it's not notable and carries as much crap as you think. Either take it to AfD or RfC or something. SmallPotatoes 06:09, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
The reason that I want you to read it is because you don't actually understand the guideline. It directly relates to WAF (which is what the proposal makes clear). How exactly can you follow one but not the other anyways? So going with WAF, we must give real world info, such as development and reception. TTN 14:53, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
So what became of the discussion? Can Bulbasaur have its own page? Lord Sesshomaru
I believe this merging ideas are, shall I say, not-clever?
How long are we keeping this open? There isn't any real discussion going on, and there is still no reason to keep the article. The attempt at out of universe information is just drawing fluff from indiscriminate places, and it certainly isn't showing any potential. TTN 20:54, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
No, it is not just my opinion. This information has to assert a level of notability. You cannot do that by saying "This character has voice actors." You need some of the things outlined in WAF, which is the consensus of what needs to present to assert notability. If you're somehow asserting that because Bulbasaur is "notable", that this information works, please read over the guideline again. The information asserts the notability, nothing else. And if you're really saying that you think it is just good enough, you think that all Pokemon that have appeared in the anime are notable, which obviously isn't what you actually believe. Thus, we need substance.
Just going over it quickly: Unless non-trivial sources are used, the Conception and creation can be trimmed to a paragraph. Characteristics needs to be one paragraph. The video game section can be trimmed to one paragraph (single game mentions are unneeded unless the game has a major impact or the game is based around it). Anime shows the unneeded plot summary. It can be trimmed down to one or two paragraphs to give a description of the two major Bulbasaurs in the series. All TCG sections are going to be cut on the keepers. Manga, if kept at all, only needs two sentences, though it can be fluffed up to a paragraph. The books are fine, but a single toy mention is unneeded unless backed by reception or something. TTN 19:49, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
NO!!! I disagree on merging, 100%!! Don't please!! >:( -- 68.97.69.115 19:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I hate merging myself. however, since it's required, we have to merge Bulbasaur! Why should he stand out
I don't think we should mearge. 69.202.119.212 18:39, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
So, has anyone lately come up with any new arguments not to merge, or any new references for any articles? I've heard talk about Bulbasaur, Charizard, and Lugia, but when I go to look at those articles, none of them even begin to solve the sourcing problems raised in the Torchic FAR.
So what's up? - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 18:46, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I merged it into a list, I didn't include any anime appearance since they weren't important enough in my opinion. Maybe the Deoxys movie is important, I just copied the biological section, if that's the wrong way to do it, please tell me the best way to merge, I need to know the best way to merge (if I didn't merge this right) because I'm going to merge Huntail tomorrow. TheBlazikenMaster 00:38, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
I finished the following merging today:
I will leave Raichu unmerged, since it's notable for being the evolution of the most notable pokémon. I think we need to discuss about Raichu before merging it. TheBlazikenMaster 13:23, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
and will do Gengar, after that I'm finished with all the pokémon on MY watchlist, but we still got long way to go. But we're almost there. TheBlazikenMaster 16:46, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
P.s. Except Raichu, I'm not entirely sure if that one is notable or unnotable. TheBlazikenMaster 16:47, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Remember, notable = sources. Where are the sources discussing Raichu? - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 17:11, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
-- The Raven's Apprentice ( PokéNav| Trainer Card) 08:01, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Basically, we should start actively focusing on getting certain articles unmerged from the list (like I am with Charizard) over getting them merged. The non-notable ones WILL get merged, so someone has to work against that with potentially notable ones. - A Link to the Past (talk) 18:33, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Wow...Whew. Sorry, been stuck in the real world for a few days without a computer, but I'm glad that we seem to have finally come to some sort of agreement. I would try to at least get the rest of the legendaries from the 4th generation and the Regis their own articles, but maybe we will get some more information on them when the next few movies and games come out. Until then, I look forward to seeing the articles mentioned saved from merging. Cheers. Leprechaun Gamer 03:46, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm thinking we should all work on the lists in order so no images get missed. Anyone wanting to continue can start with List of Pokémon (61-80). Lets also try to stick with consistency. (Like first image, then pokemon template, paragraph description, then break.) Progress should probably be updated here so if any of us want to jump in, we know where to start from. - WarthogDemon 17:16, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I was looking through many of the seperate pokemon articles. Wormadam-Buizel (not sure which other ones) have a LOT of game-guide stuff on them, like "____ has high (Attribute), but amazingly low (other attribute). It is hard to level up, due to its limited movepool. However, it can learn the powerful attack...". I assume people are too busy watching the lists, or merging, but can we keep an eyes out for this? Crowstar Vaseline-on-the-lens-Jitsu! fwends! 18:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I posted a question here a couple of days ago and because individual Pokémon pages can go for a while without being checked, unless there is vandalism, I decided to bring it up here too. Rather than reposting the question, I'll just provide the link so this talk page won't get clogged up with what may be repeat answers if users see one page and not the other. - Saturn Yoshi THE VOICES 22:09, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm very impressed that the huge amount of Pokémon articles is being converted to list format. I was wondering which ones are staying as individual articles, and how that's being determined. Obviously independently notable ones like Pikachu, but should Golduck really have its own article? Andre ( talk) 01:41, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Could someone please finish merging the necessary articles into List of Pokémon (241-260)? It is going to make you look bad if you only half-ass it, and someone on Talk:Mudkip just pointed that Marshtomp is still unmerged. - Jéské ( v^_^v) 22:37, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
In merging, do the talk pages have to redirect to the talk page of the new article, as well? I'm getting tired of replying to responses at Talk:Mudkip when the article it's a TP of no longer exists (except as a rd). - Jéské ( v^_^v) 00:46, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Not sure if this has been discussed anywhere, but I think it would benefit these pages if the origins of the pokemon names were covered. This is as valuable to the average reader as the original Japanese language name, as many people don't know that Pikachu means electric mouse or that Ho-Oh is a pallindrome of the Japanese name for "phoenix" I think adding the name origins from the original pages, or something close to them, would help the average reader's understanding of the pokemon. 75.109.33.107 18:52, 3 August 2007 (UTC)Turk
Has anyone noticed that our current focus specie article, Lugia, has been merged into List of Pokémon (241-260)? I thought that merging Lugia would be put on hold depending on wheather we decide to merge it or not. Leprechaun Gamer 12:36, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Just posting here for those who don't have the WP:VG on their watchlist. I'm running a script that will check all external links on articles, the results are available for viewing at -links:Template:Pokeproject. — Dispenser 02:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
After a ridiculous edit war, half of which I'm to blame for, a question has been raised with Ho-Oh. Apparently the name is similar/identical to the Japanese name of Fenghuang. Should Ho-Oh therefore be a disambig page? (And note that at this point I think it does; it just took me a while to completely understand what the user was talking about.) - WarthogDemon 06:11, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Let's copy all of the individual Pokémon articles (the articles about each Pokémon as they were before being merged) and their images to the Pokémon Wikia so that people could still learn about Pokémon. As of now, that wiki barely has any information in it, and the easiest way to learn sourced and detailed information about Pokémon is to look in the article history pages, as I have been doing (people new to wikis won't know about this, however, so they miss out).-- Qwetzalquoatal 06:38, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Wikia is a hosting service for many different wikis, with different objectives and different licenses. If nobody really wants to revive the Pokémon Wikia wiki, then there's little need to transfer the old pages over. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 19:03, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
The Annex will probably be ready soon; that's a place to store Wikipedia articles without a Wikia. It might take a few more days to get everything established; I have to talk to Renmiri some more. — Deckill er 10:55, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I have re-created the Torchic article because it is a featured article, which means that it was once prominently displayed on the Main Page.-- Qwetzalquoatal 06:42, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
The lists of Pokemon are almost exclusively game guide material or in-universe information. They do a very poor job of asserting notability, and should probably be deleted.-- Nydas (Talk) 07:18, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Nydas, I'm trying to tell you it's much better than the articles were, they were full of unneeded plot summary or game guide. TheBlazikenMaster 21:45, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I find myself agreeing with Nydas in this case. In order to avoid original research, game guide, fancruft etc, the list articles are based almost entirely on Pokedex information. However, Pokedex information is inherently in-universe. I can't see how we can fix this to make them out-of-universe, because we don't have enough out-of-universe sources. (Though, of course, I'll be very happy to be proven wrong) Bhamv 06:24, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
De-merging the lists creates another problem: hundreds of non-notable articles. Heck, the list articles fail to show notability either, but it is an improvement. I'd rather see the approach to the list articles change by following WP:WAF. This is one of those scenerios where there is a lot to mention, but not enough real-world information to show notability either way: I think lists in this scenerio is the best compromise available. — Deckill er 12:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I'd hate to bring this up again, but no one seems to be listening to my earlier comment. Lugia, our current focus specie article, has been merged into List of Pokémon (241-260) and I don't know how to fix that. For one thing it is our current focus article, and at least until such time that it isn't, it should stay as an article. Second, I thought we agreed to keep Lugia and a few other articles for the time being, so that we can discuss why they should or should not be merged. So, either we revert the merge and keep it its own article for a while, or we change the current focus article to something else, and either way, we talk about what we're doing. Leprechaun Gamer 11:48, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
"I think it is unusual that Mew is not considered significant enough to be expanded currently, though Mewtwo is. Mew has had several notable things, such as being in Pokemon Snap, something not all Pokemon made it in, featured as a point bonus when found in a pokeball in Super Smash Bros, has had two strong movies, much like Mewtwo, actually is able to be captured by the Mew Glitch. It seems like it should receive a main article outlining these aspects. -- Nerdzrool 17:29, 9 August 2007 (UTC)"
There is an editor in the Pokemon Movie Articles which insists on keeping the trivia and adding "Pikachu the Movie" logos to EVERY pokemon movie article. He also insists on adding a Japanese poster to every article. This, to me, seems out of manual of style, as "Pikachu the Movie" is not mentioned in any of the articles, and there is already an English poster in the article. Every movie has posters/dubs in other languages, that's no reason to add an image of every cover of every movie. Anyone agree/disagree with adding these things? What about trivia? see WP:Trivia regarding trivia in articles. Spigot Map 00:11, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Bloody hell... Ok, I agree with SpigotMap in this case. The Japanese movie posters aren't necessary on the English Wikipedia; the differences between the posters is at best trivial, and the Japanese release dates can be inserted into the text of the article itself if deemed necessary. The Pikachu movie logos are also unnecessary because they add no new information to the article. Additionally, according to Wikipedia's guidelines trivia sections should be minimized, with the relevant parts integrated into the main article text if possible, and the trivial parts removed.
Are these images related to the articles? Undoubtedly. But are they relevant to the articles, do they improve the articles? No and no. As such, they become extraneous and unnecessary. Also, too many non-free images might stretch the Wikipedia Fair Use rationales.
Finally, maybe you two should try to cool down and, for lack of a more elegant phrase, get off your high horses. I notice from your user contribution pages that you never tried to talk things out on a talk page, either a Pokemon movie talk page or each other's talk page. You just started edit warring, warning each other, and reporting each other to administrators. That doesn't work, it just gets you both blocked. Talk things out, discuss your differences in a rational and civil manner, reach a consensus. The administrator Angus Lepper did not intervene in the content dispute itself, he told you to calm down and stop edit warring. Bhamv 06:21, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Workadded is at it again. I removed all the images he added and also most of the trivia sections, only for him to revert it again with no reason listed. In his reverting, he removed trivia tags and added his japanese posters and pikachu the movie images back to the articles. Anyone have any ideas on this? Spigot Map 22:04, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
<de-indent>Heh amazing! On another note, I'd just leave the articles alone until an admin reviews it, this guy will just keep going until he gets blocked again, which I'm sure he will. I think it's still viewed as a content dispute and he's broken the 3RR, don't break it with him. Spigot Map 22:35, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm not a frequent Wikipedia editor but I am a pokemon fan. I was a little upset recently about the article merges. However, a lot of people have been improving Bulbpedia quite a bit. I remember a couple of months ago it was worse than the Wikpedia's article. Check it out now. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Bulbasaur_(Pokémon) That's convincing evidence that all individual pokemon pages, INCLUDING legendaries and starters should be merged. Bulbpedia has vastly improved. Stop complaining and head to Bulbpedia and improve it if you don't like what's going on. I can rest easy knowing there's no good arguement against this. If bulbpedia is laggy? Try improving your internet connection or computer, or just deal with it. Feel free to yell at me now. 70.104.16.118 22:50, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Good idea. Using Wikia appropriately is a great idea, and a good compromise; those who want a comprehensive pokemon encyclopedia can edit there, and those who want to work on a general scholarly overview can edit here. External links can be provided to Bulbapedia for "further reading". That's what Final Fantasy has done. — Deckill er 02:50, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I know this is kind of weird, but is there any thought of Poliwhirl having its own article. I, doing research on charizard, have now hit 2 full references to Poliwhirl, one noting that "For example, the Pokemon named Poliwhirl has a belly decorated with a little whirl--Tajiri's memory of the transparent skin of a tadpole with its coiled innards visible beneath." (Time magazine), and a second noting it as a Popular Pokemon (with Pikachu no less) "Pokemon creatures such as Pikachu (a yellow catlike mite) and Poliwhirl (a disk with bulging eyes) were soon presiding over a media juggernaut, including an animated TV show and trading cards, and appearing on everything from cell phones to hot-dog packages." I believe it is said somewhere that Poliwhirl was one of the first Pokemon created, and the creator of Pokemon's favorite, or maybe that is fan speculation? Either way, it is something to consider, given the huge number of places Poliwhirl used to featured, and the possibility of being Tajiri's favorite Pokemon. Heck, Poliwhirl is larger than Pikachu and centered on time magazine at one point, http://www.dogasu.bulbagarden.net/features/time01.jpg Balladofwindfishes 15:24, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Also noted is that Red from the Manga started with a Poliwhirl and it plays a large role in that. Poliwhirl was included in the first set of Pokemon plush toys, which included Pikachu, Eevee, Charizard, and Snorlax. another TIME (Asian Branch) interview which shows some favoritism to the little guy- TIME: Are the Pokémon names related to those insects? Tajiri: Yeah. Like Nyoromo [Poliwhirl in the U.S.]. It looks like a tadpole. There's little whirls on it because I remembered that when you pick up a tadpole, you can see its intestines because it's transparent.
It also seems to be noted elsewhere that Poliwhirl is infact Tajiri's favorite Pokemon, and the Pokemon he wanted to represent the series, rather than Pikachu, but I havn't been able to find sources other than a good dozen forums. Balladofwindfishes 23:04, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Here is a direct quote from Talk:List of Pokémon (1-20):
This is just a suggestion. Many people seem to be overly upset over the loss of individual articles for each Pokemon. If all the extra information is being put in Bulbapedia anyway, why not put an External Link section at the bottom of every article that is a List of Pokemon and list Bulbapedia as an external source?
And, if you really don't like Bulbapedia that much, then help make Bulbapedia a better place. Every Pokemon discussion article has at least one complainer over this matter. I wasn't on board with this decision either, but it really defeats the purpose of having Bulbapedia if you are going to repeat that stuff here. SuperChencho 05:01, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I added it myself. You can always delete it if anyone thinks it's not a good idea. SuperChencho 05:09, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
So how do you like the sound of this guys? I think this dude deserves some respect for getting this idea. In fact I think we should help him making the idea come true, what do you think? TheBlazikenMaster 08:51, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
It sounds like a great idea, and i'm sure the fellows over at Bulbapedia would enjoy the help improving thier articles. Ageofe 17:51, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Hate to bring up an old topic again. I'm mainly watching/cleaning up the movie articles, but I'd like to get involved with the merging or at least know what the current plan is on merging. Is there a list of the pokemon planned to have their own articles? Is the plans for having evolutionary line articles still in effect or are they all going to the merge lists? It seems to me some people are too partial to certain pokemon even if they aren't notable. I'd think it to be much cleaner to just put most of the pokemon in the lists, and a few notable pokemon have their own articles. Notable being Pokemon that the general public might have heard of, and pokemon that have been featured a lot outside of the game. Even if the Pokemon had a large role in the games/anime, if it had no effect outside of the game, I wouldn't think it to be notable to the average person. Some pokemon have full articles, sure, but that still doesn't make them notable enough to not merge them, it just means someone spent a lot of time to write a long article. Just my thoughts and questions. Spigot Map 14:17, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I have proposed that the expanded versions of Pokémon Red and Blue ( Pokémon Yellow and Pokémon FireRed and LeafGreen) be merged into the main article. Please discuss on the talk page. ~ JohnnyMrNinja 06:46, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Is the FR/LG girl really based on the design of Green, or is this flat-out WP:NOR that needs to go? Requesting here for wider input, as the talk page is rather dead. hbdragon88 00:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm the one who made those claims, a long time ago when I didn't know better. They need to die, die, die. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 01:33, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Guys, is it just me, or is our project page seriously out of date? I am new here and am still trying to figure out the way things work, but I think it's important that we establish what needs to be done around here. There is no mention of the multiple mergers that we got going on among Pokemon articles. The project's focus still lists Lugia and Pokemon Evolution as our subjects of focus.
Just a thought SuperChencho 02:42, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi guys, I'm just an observer to this project, haven't really contributed anything, but some time ago I remember browsing through the pokemon articles and got very excited when I saw the "evolutionary line" series of articles. They were less cluttered than the list articles and can be organized with bigger pictures, etc. What happened to this concept, and why were they all merged with the cluttered lists?
I propose that the list articles be the "hub" articles to the evolutionary line articles, or scrapped and reorganized together.. all those Pokemon crushed up against each other looks a little.. I don't know, strange. Whose idea was that, and who got rid of the evolutionary lines?
Anyway, that's just my 2 cents... DeusExMachina 02:55, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I just want to double check myself. Information regarding Nintendo events do not belong in these lists, correct? - WarthogDemon 00:52, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
To help out in List of Pokémon (301-320) and this project page (I read that non-notable Pokemon are to be merged), I'm new here, but I'd like to help, so I thought I would you let all know in advance. magiciandude ( Talk) ( review) 01:11, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I have got all the Pokemon in List of Pokémon (21-40) except for Pikachu and Jigglypuff (with the latter, I'm not sure it's been agreed to merge). I wasn't sure about Raichu but seeing as Pichu has been merged, I decied to merge Raichu as well. magiciandude ( Talk) ( review) 03:38, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Okay, now I've got List of Pokémon (41-60), the only ones I kept are Golduck becausde it's GA status and Meowth, because I'm not sure. It may look like filling too space with these comments, but I thought everyone should just know. magiciandude ( Talk) ( review) 03:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
This might be a crazy idea but just in case, I'll throw it out on the table. An IP suggested perhaps an image of all types of Unown. Not 28 images, obviously, but how would all in one image look? Good or bad? I'm thinking it would look a little smushed but I don't think it's an absurd suggestion per se. What does everyone think? - WarthogDemon 22:13, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Any individual page on a Pokémon will fail WP:NOTE. -- ÆAUSSIEevilÆ 14:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
As it stands, all of the images on the List of Pokémon (1-20) etc articles do not have fair use rationales. They have a random rationale that ZapperNapper made when he started uploading them last month, and they are not qualified as fair use rationales. Unless there's some reason that he went about doing this, I suggest that anyone who's actually active and gives a shit here go through the 500 images and fix the 500 fair use rationales.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龍) 16:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
This seems to be the reason why it's a good thing to have all the Pokemon images removed; if it's truly the truth that that's the way Wikipedia is supposed to be, then I'm cool with that. What becomes a potential issue in my mind's eye, then, is the question of which Pokemon should have their fair-use image on Pokemon articles in general. Erik Jensen ( Appreciate| Laugh At) 04:36, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Seems like we have two issues, but I can only really help with one.
As for a non-free image of Ken Sugimori, I think that that would be perfectly appropriate. He is a reclusive person, and does not make public appearances. Acquiring a free image of him is basically impossible unless Nintendo is willing to release such an image (as all of his press contact goes through Nintendo).
As for the images in lists, I have no idea. They're illustrating specific sections of the article in a way that text cannot, and the appearances are frequently a subject of discussion in each section, but it is an awful lot of non-free images. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 23:18, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Real members of this project, this is an IP, most of the times IPs are people that don't know crap about Wikipedia. I really believe the IP didn't mean to vandalize (just look carefully at the summaries), so instead of only having warnings, you should try to explain to whoever reverted the images why the images disappeared, believe me, you hate to get into trouble without knowing why you are in trouble. TheBlazikenMaster 01:39, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I'm trying to clean up and source Pokemon Yellow, unfortunately I don't have the instruction booklet for any of the version anymore... does someone have them, scanned or something, so that I could finish up my sourcing? David Fuchs ( talk) 19:06, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
NOTE: This discussion was moved due for ease of use.-- ZXCVBNM 21:20, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
User:Durin removed fair use images from this article, as well as from all of the "List of Pokémon" series up to #200. This was justified under Wikipedia:Non-free content items numbers 3a (Minimal use, as little non-free content as possible) and 8 (Significance, non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic), as well as the user's own guideline for fair use overuse.
However, I do believe that the inclusion of images does not violate fair use law, as the images in question are in low resolution, is depicting one of the subjects in the article for description and critical commentary, and by no means limit the copyright holder's rights to market and distribute their products. In addition, no free alternative to these images exist. This is further explained in the non-free character image rationalization template.
But even if the images are indeed protected under fair use, is this negated due to their inclusion being "excessive" (as per 3a)? As it is stated in Durin's own fair use guidelines, section 6.12, "It's not the quantity but the nature of use that counts as excessive. One image can be excessive in some cases while ten in other cases might not be...How an image is used is the salient point on this aspect, not how many are used." Though there are a large number of fair-use images, a variety of species of Pokemon need an image for description. It is also stated in this section that fair use guidlines are used more on "articles pertaining to the particular thing being depicted, not superset articles such as discographies, list of characters, artist pages, etc." I would agree that if Pokemon characters had their own personal page in addition to this list than yes, the inclusion of images for each would be excessive. However, as this is no longer the case for all Pokemon, the images are needed.
As per section #8, "Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding. Non-free media files are not used if they can be replaced by text that serves a similar function." Yes, one could say that "Pikachu are short, stocky mouse Pokémon that possess short, yellow fur with brown markings covering their backs and parts of their tails...", but an image serves this purpose much better. Obviously no free alternative exists, so we are forced to use the copyrighted material.
I would post a notification about this discussion on Durin's talkpage, but as he has recently left Wikipedia for legal reasons, I doubt that he will return for this discussion. I will, however, notify the various Pokemon Wikiprojects about this discussion. Morgan695 19:49, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I certainly agree with Morgan and personally would support bringing all the images back to where they were, my main reason being that having images to illustrate each distinctive creature (each of which is an important player of the one-and-only world famous Pokemon franchise itself, mind you) would discourage an increase in text-based cruft and unverifiable claims on Pokemon appearance and cultural connotations that would likely be posted even by good-faith users. Gengar's picture would keep away such text like, say, "Gengar is a squat purple ghost-like entity with a complexion practically being an example of rictus, with two short arms, two short legs, two ears on its head, a pair of sinister red eyes, and a backside with an array of hair-like spikes." That sort of material was once in all of the old separate Pokemon pages in separate "appearance" sections, and those were parts of the bad content with the pages in general that eventually prompted consensus to perform a mega-merger into lists, with the idea that in the short sections for each Pokemon we let the images do the talking for how that Pokemon appears. So, the images are too deeply connected with the coverage of the Pokemon to think that removing the images will leave the coverage of the Pokemon species remotely unscathed. Erik Jensen ( Appreciate| Laugh At) 00:24, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
The Pokemon images are just being used as an illustration of the characters in question. Can that honestly be worth legal trouble? And what about all the Digimon images? Does that matter too? They're needed for articles that talk about the characters in question. If by the slim to none chance that Nintendo writes a legal complaint about the images, which I severely doubt they're going to do to a reference tool, then maybe this can be brought up. But right now, this whole wondering about images vs no images is really just a waste of time. Toastypk 02:44, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I really hate to sound like the bad guy here, but I think Durin was right at some points. This is Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, yet here we are with over 500 non-free images under WPP's umbrella alone. I don't think he's right, though, that we cannot compromise, since that is the entire reason we have Fair-Use rationales.
To get to the point, I think we ought to decide now not whether or not we should keep the images, but rather which images to keep and which ones to delete. Hopefully, we'll be cutting down to at least under 100 images which are absolutely needed, not down to 400 if 350 of them are just there for the sake of it.
This might also be a good time to figure out what "absolutely needed" means. To quote from Morgan695 above:
Yes, one could say that "Pikachu are short, stocky mouse Pokémon that possess short, yellow fur with brown markings covering their backs and parts of their tails...", but an image serves this purpose much better. Obviously no free alternative exists, so we are forced to use the copyrighted material.
That is true, it would be difficult to describe Pikachu in that much detail. But is it necessary to describe Pikachu in that much detail? Would a casual reader want Pikachu described (in text) in that much detail, or would they be satisfied with "a stocky mouse covered in yellow fur and brown stripes"? I'm not saying to get rid of Pikachu's image; quite the contrary, since Pikachu is a notable pokemon. But would "Vulpix is a red fox with six tails" not suffice? And wouldn't "Voltorb looks like a large Poke Ball with eyes" be enough? Granted, some are indescribable, such as Gengar and Lugia, but the vast majority of pocket monsters are based on identifiable animals, plants, and inanimate objects and are describable as such.
To summarize, I think it is indeed excessive to delete all of the images, but at the same time it is also excessive to keep all of the images as well. In order to find the balance, we have to figure out how much detail is really needed in describing a monster, and in turn figure out how many images really are necessary and can honestly be rationalized. Regards, You Can ' t Review Me!!! 22:05, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Just reviewed the exact rules regarding the use of the images, my results 1. No free equivalent. Easily we have this. There is no free use images of Pokemon, so check for this one.
2. Respect for commercial opportunities. We arn't taking away from Nintendo at all. If anything we are advertising for them.
3. (a) Minimal number of uses. One per Pokemon isn't too many. If we included the pictures and the sprites, that would be too many, but one or the other seems fine
(b) Minimal extent of use. I wouldn't personally use any of those images for graphical uses. They are clearly lowest possible quality.
4. Previous publication. Nintendo Power's National Pokedex, check done
5. Content. The only other way is by using Original Research descriptions. Images are the best way to stay like an encyclopedia.
6. Media-specific policy We had this, we can just restore it
7. One-article minimum. Easily have this also "For instance, if an editor is actively working on an article in a user-space subpage, it would be unhelpful to delete the images before the article is finished" Which applies to us... ummm there was no warrant at all to delete them, and I question the user's interpretation of the rules.
8. Significance. it is the ONLY way to describe the Pokemon. They are fictional beasts, any decriptions worth reading would be OR and were erased when the articles were being merged anyway.
9. Restrictions on location. It's an article, not anything banned. "They should never be used on templates (including stub templates and navigation boxes), portals, user pages, categories, Help, MediaWiki, or the Project namespace" Our articles do not fall into any of those. Lists are not on that list, despite what some people say.
10. Image description page. We had that, we can bring it back also noted is the final area,
"Enforcement", An image that does not comply with this policy 48 hours after notification to the uploading editor will be deleted." I request, no I demand that the images be brought back until we get a "fair" 48 hours to debate this, since I have yet to see 48 hours of debate BEFORE they were deleted. Balladofwindfishes 00:01, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, the removed fair use images are going to be deleted in less than a week. Fun Pika 20:47, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
To all those of this WikiProject, I'm reporting that the articles above have been fully-protected. I'm also asking that you watchlist BOTH of them (even though Mudskipper isn't a Pokémon), because both, prior to protection, were being attacked by the "So i herd you liek Mudkipz" (sic) meme, and I don't doubt they'll be attacked again when the protection is downgraded (both were semi'd) in two weeks.
If you want more information on what's been going on, see Talk:Mudkip/Archive02, talk to me, talk to User:Ksy92003, or talk with User:Alison. - Jéské ( v^_^v Kacheek!) 19:33, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Does this project have any use for User:Jayvdb/List_of_Pokemon_Afd ? If so, go for it. John Vandenberg 12:30, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
...hasn't been edited for two months now. Is it safe to remove it from my watchlist? TheBlazikenMaster 14:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Talk:List of Pokémon (241-260)#Merger proposal. I have already rebutted; thoughts? - Jéské ( v^_^v Kacheek!) 05:10, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Hey guys!
Could the Poké Ball article be sourced more thouroughly? Like with in-text citations and stuff? Thanks in advance! Zouavman Le Zouave 14:38, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm talking about those that aren't merged. Redirecting isn't enough, those with blank entry should have "Main article:", if someone wanted to merged, they'd have problems having to put the Pokémon's name to the search box, finding the Pokémon, going to that article's history and having to see the last unredirected article. This is NOT what merging means, Remember this: Wikipedia:Wikipedia has no deadline, so don't speed up too much. Redirecting to blank sections is like a motorbiker in so much hurry that he just rides his motorbike to a rock, seriously. I had to bring this to attention because List of Pokémon (301-320) suffers from this. TheBlazikenMaster 22:53, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Sharpedo still redirects to an empty section, along with other pokémon on that page, please fix it. TheBlazikenMaster 14:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
This article is having the same problem, you clearly paid no attention to what I said. There is a difference between merging and redirecting to blank section. Until there is actually content, there should be {{main}} tag and a full article. We are trying to merge, not redirect as much as we can. This is really important, merging is harder, a lot harder if you just redirect to a blank section. You guys seriously need to read about merging articles, and please reply and face your opinion on this, I did make this section for a reason, because I know what merging is and I know that the articles have been merged improperly. TheBlazikenMaster 22:32, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
How about 4 pictures of five pokemon each? We could have one picture, the list of the five right below. And then the second picture, the list of the five below, and so on. Would that work? - Warthog Demon 17:44, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Has anyone tried looking in the game guides for suitable scans at all? I imagine that they may have suitable "group shots" if they detail the stats of each single one. TTN 20:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
What's with that? I'd like to understand why this is being done.-- h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 14:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Someone needs to keep an eye on the list redirects, at least until the request for protection goes through. I just spent a half-hour reverting edits that ILikePikachu used to negate the redirects. Secondly, I note that said user has a beef against the merging. - Jéské ( v^_^v Kacheek!) 18:39, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
It seems that with the massive amounts of edits a day across all the lists that this cruft is working its way in. Just to clarify, I think general consensus is no game locations and only Anime appearances which are a major role in the plot of the series. Information on evolution also seems to be overkill as evolutions are listed on the template for each pokemon. Also the {{-}}s are either getting worked out/deleted or text is being placed below them. Just some things to look for I guess while editing/watching the lists. Spigot Map 00:24, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I would be more specific than that. Just say that it blocks two roads, unless in the anime it's an even greater pain to deal with. hbdragon88 23:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
At Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Sources, there is a proposed guideline on sources in articles in the scope of WP:VG. For example, all Pokémon are in this scope. Your edits and comments are appreciated. User:Krator ( t c) 15:22, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi all, I just thought that it's possible & would be a good idea if we use just one template to cover everything Pokémon-related. With so many templates, all of them being relatively small, it would be great for easy navigation. I'm thinking on putting this on all the articles, but I'd love your feedback first.
Thanks, æt ərnal ðrAعon → 10:12, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
That's odd. TRA proposed something similar, but it failed to catch enough support. Anyways, yeah; I support either of the two gigantic navboxes. You Can ' t See Me! 20:42, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Quite big though understandably so. I like it. - Warthog Demon 20:45, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Once again I must vocally oppose this mega merger of Pokémon templates. it is huge, unwiedly, along with font that is too small – and if made bigger, the box becomes too huge and overpowers the page. I don't mind characters + organizations together, but the species template is long enough to desrve its own template. As an example, {{ Yu-Gi-Oh! Directory}} was similarly huge before I suggested splitting and three users agreed with me. And this isn't new: TRA and I had a long argument over this up above, see #Final draft of consolidated navbar. hbdragon88 05:52, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
The third time? Are you counting the Battle Frontier thing as two encounters? My reason is that I agree with the concept of centralizing navigation, but there comes a point where it gets to be too large and it simply overwhelms the user and destroys the usefulness of the template. The solution is the link the most strongly-linked articles together, such as the core handheld RPG series instead of every spinoff imaginable. Most video game templates follow this philiosophy; they simply provide links to the big list pages. {{ Silent Hill series}} for instance lists Characters, Creatures, and Locations in one row instead of every article possible. The Metal Gear series templates links "characters" in the main {{ Metal Gear series}} template and has a separate {{ Metal Gear characters}} template for the character pages. I much prefer this solution over this huge mega template. hbdragon88 04:01, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Do we really need the Legendary Pokemon template anymore? I mean, the only ones that still have pages are Mewtwo, Deoxys, and (for some strange reason) the Regis. Leprechaun Gamer 12:14, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Common, I'm very disappointed that the images had to go, I bet there is a good reason for that, but there must be a solution to add images. Believe it or not, there is nothing uncylopedic about them, nothing. They describe the creatures like they're supposed to. I have been trying to think, but I can't think of anything, so please help me find a solution. TheBlazikenMaster 20:42, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
This new version of the Pokedex really isn't something I like. It's short, uninformative, and doesn't even let know the user about what it looks like or anything. It's lousy. Like before, we should have them on seperate pages. PRhyu 01:26, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
If anyone wishes to help make a consensus on the numbering of the episodes, please voice on the talk page. Going by air date has been the standard, but apparently, someone wants to make wikipedia official, he states "we most do this". Also, input is needed on the lettering of the episodes. Thanks! Spigot Map 02:01, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
what's with the lack of images for the pokemon? DSDark 13:42, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I know that the merge has been going rather slowly; that's not what I mean. I noticed that in an effort to speed up the merge, focus has gone from salvaging and refining the more important information (namely Dex info) into just getting down whatever is possible so that one can proceed with the redirect. Take Slowbro for example:
Slowbro (ヤドラン, Yadoran in original Japanese language versions) are one of the 493 fictional species of Pokémon creatures from the multi-billion-dollar Pokémon media franchise – a collection of video games, anime, manga, books, trading cards and other media created by Satoshi Tajiri. They are #80 in the National Pokédex.
Slowbro's name is a portmanteau of slow (as in " slow-witted") and bro (as in "brother", probably relating to the fraternal relationship it shares with the Shellder on its tail). Its Japanese name is most likely derived from 宿借り yadokari ( hermit crab). The Shellder which bites on its tail sucks on the aforementioned syrup, and so it is hard to remove. Also toxins which leak from the bite pass into Slowbro, which numbs its immunity to pain even more.
Of all that, only the last two sentences are what we intended to keep while everything else is what we intended to get rid of - Name origin and templated paragraph. I haven't been personally involved in the merge for quite a while now, but for those of you who are, please don't rush. Remember that Wikipedia doesn't have a deadline; take your time and put quality over quantity. You Can ' t See Me! 05:19, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I have noticed that in past several days unregistered users used the lists to make a good moveset, but that's not encyclopedic at all. Can we do something about this? TheBlazikenMaster 17:49, 3 October 2007 (UTC)