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Page was getting long... I archived most of the material and summarized the naming discussion below. Herostratus 00:05, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
It's kind of a toss-up, but based on the above I think that Pedophilia Article Watch is probably good to. Great work, that is name that no one had come up with at first and that was arrived at through discussion. Good stuff. Herostratus 00:05, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
My thoughts on the name are related to the projects goals and the overarching principles that guide them. People have thrown out a lot ideas above and given their ideas about how we should proceed. I feel good about the success of the project after reading over all the comments top to bottom. We have a group of thoughtful people that are discussing it in a positive manner. If we are patient and work together, I think project will work. Even be the pride of 'pedia. : ) I see two separate issues that need to be addressed.
First, I understand that we want to be welcoming. That WP is a wiki that encourages everyone to edit. But I think we should be realistic about the negative influence that over involved user have on an article and WP. For that reason, pedophiles and child sexual abuse victims would be problematic to this project. Regrettably, POV editing, OR, and ownership issues are common among editors that are personally involved in an article’s topic.
Laying out the principles that reflect both wiki openess and the practical reality of involved editor might be helpful. I took these from recent Wikipedia:arbitration committee cases. I think they do a good job of stating the overarching principles of this project. I offer them here because they reflect the earnest and thoughtful reflection of a group of Wikipedians trying to make Wikipedia better. Like most everything else on Wikipedia, they were developed by consensus. That means that they could change if the arbritrators consensus shifts. Or if Jimbo and the Foundation establish something different. They may be interrpreted differently in different situations. Never the less, I think they are a good guide for us.
1. Editing controversial articles There is a special burden imposed on those who choose to edit hotly contested articles. Extra effort must be made to be courteous, communicate adequately with other users, and use reliable sources. Those who are unable to function productively in that context may be banned from such editing.
2. Neutral Point Of View Wikipedia:Neutral point of view contemplates fair expression of all significant points of view which relate to a subject.
3. Extreme points of view Provided they are reasonably courteous and conform to Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines, users who hold views from any political viewpoint are valued members of the Wikipedia community.
4. Verifiability versus original research Users are expected to use reliable published information as the source for the material they place in Wikipedia articles. Subtle overreaching and spinning of information is not acceptable. Wikipedia is not a soapbox.
5. Assume good faith Users are expected to assume good faith with respect the other users, who share the common goal of creating a useful reference work. See Wikipedia:Assume good faith.
6. Personal attacks and incivility Users are expected to be reasonably courteous to other users, especially with respect to contested issues, see Wikipedia:No personal attacks and Wikipedia:Civility. Users who habitually violate these policies may be banned from editing, either in a certain field or from all pages.
7. Involvement in the event Editors who are intimately involved in an event may tend to edit inappropriately in an attempt to present their particular point of view. This may result in the Wikipedia article on the event becoming part of the event. Such persons may be banned from editing with respect to events they are involved with.
8. Tendentious editing Users who engage in sustained, aggressive point-of-view editing may be banned from affected articles, in extreme cases from the entire site.
Based on our recent experience launching this project and the current conflicts on some project related articles, I think we need address these problems up front. This involves naming the project and adopting overarching principles and goals. Then we need to think about how to bring them into the day-to-day operation of the project. In this regard, I think we should be extremely practical. End of Part one (yes, my friends there's more.) FloNight talk 01:24, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I think renaming this to Wikipedia:WikiProject Paraphilia would be helpful in attracting new members to keep it alive and useful, both because it broadens the scope and because it takes it away from the most controversial paraphilia. Ashibaka tock 20:32, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
But also, I guess it's also pretty accurate of what the founders intended, in a way, I guess. The original founders weren't so much interested in the subject of pedophilia per se, and of researching and adding new articles etc., as in cleaning up, verifying, and watching existing articles. I don't know as the project name really imples POV very much. The point is to watch for introduction of POV from either "side", so to speak. There is plenty of POV available from people who are hysterically and uninformedly "anti", so to speak, although I haven't seen that turn up so much in articles lately, as from those who are "pro", so to speak. (Obviously "anti" and "pro" are gross simplifications of a very complicated subject, just using those terms for shorthand.) Herostratus 08:11, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
There is now a watchlist link on the main article page. This is a cool thing, I did not know about this little trick. Basically there is a page called Watchlist that lists a bunch of articles (of course anyone is welcome to add/subtract to it), and clicking on the "Related changes" gives the recent changes for all those articles - like having them on your watchlist but without cluttering up your regular watchlist. Cool. The main page icon is just a shortcut for that. (Also it has a picture of an eye. I put that in because I take any excuse I can get to dork around in Photoshop. But maybe the eye looks too scary, I dunno.) Herostratus 00:05, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Hey. Pedophile Article Watch makes an acronym. I'm not gonna make a userbox but here's a graphic that I'm using on my own page.
Herostratus
16:46, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Wikistalking Herostratus I saw this logo and thought it a bit "wrong". At first glance it looks like it may have association with Furry fandom. Then for a user to click on it and see the word "pedophilia" might lead to some hysteria. Not sure if it's a real potential problem or not. (PS I'm a visual communications professional so I tend to overthink these things - it's my job) -- Monotonehell 09:44, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Is Child sexual abuse on your list to watch? -- DanielCD 15:12, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I am working on the child sexual abuse article. What was up there was full of POV and unsourced statements. Someone has been reverting the changes after I make them. That won't stop me, but I want to bring it to your attention, because clearly the person who is doing so prefers the unverifiable, unsourced POV version. Volpe 02:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
(I moved this to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Pedophilia Article Watch/Terminology for neatness and to prevent its being buried by the next archiving of this page. Herostratus 08:33, 20 April 2006 (UTC))
Could you guys add this article to your watch list? There has been some problems lately about people adding information based on false claims and/or unverified sources. The biggest issue right now is the sentence that reads: "No actual sexual acts were portrayed but there were implied sexual acts such as the models sucking on bananas," eventhough there is no actual evidence of banana sucking. You can see some of the problems on the talk page, although, right now it looks like we've come to a good consensus on the talk page, but I still feel the article will have complications in the future. -- Jelligraze 13:47, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I think we should make an inactive members section for people gone for more than a month. I think User:Ineloquent (Parox) is gone. Perhaps he's resurrected again, but I've no idea if this is so. -- DanielCD 17:13, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
What's the policy on movies and books related to the topic? -- DanielCD 17:40, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Could someone check out the links at the bottom of this article to the "forums" and make sure they are not something slimy? -- DanielCD 18:02, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed Rind et al. (1998) because editors at talk:Rind et al. (1998) insist that it has no connection to Pedophilia. - Will Beback 22:35, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
This project seems to also covers child sexual abuse, which Rind et al. is (needless to say) relevant to. 24.224.153.40 01:08, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Hmmmm, well, a couple points. Its not always really possible to get all the members of a project to agree with precision what all the goals are. Some projects have somewhat broad or vague goals to serve as an umbrella for various people to work under subsets of.
Will, you said "But pedophiles don't actually have sex with children, as you've often said before." I don't recall anyone saying that, and if they did, that's crazy. Obviously at least some pedophiles are child sex criminals.
I myself try to disabuse people of the notion that most child sex criminals are pedophiles (in the scholarly sense of the term), because that's just incorrect, and it makes it hard to have a discussion when people are using a term to mean different things.
But let's not go overboard. That fact that some pedophiles are also child sex criminals is embarassing to law-abiding pedophiles, and it's a fact that I (personally) don't want to overstress for various reasons, but you can't just wave it away either.
Also, the term "pedophile" is used idiomatically to mean "child sex criminal". That's not the scholarly definition, but it is a definition. Because of that, in any article relating to child sex abuse etc., an uninformed editor might replace (say) "child sex criminal" with "pedophile" where that's not appropriate. So those articles have to be watched. We are looking to avoid bias and unscholarly terminology from all quarters.
As far as the project intro and the Goals section... there is a whole little section "Nomenclature", and a subpage for discussion of terminology. (Actually, I think It'd be a good idea to change "Nomeclature" to "Terminology" (I'll do that now, it's purely for clarity, if any objection revert and discuss.)) Anyway, if someone wanted to add "(see Terminology section)" after the word "pedophilia" in the intro and elsewhere, I wouldn't object. Herostratus 09:11, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Using the default Wikipedai template for tagging article talk pages results in this:
Which seemed awkward and wrong, so I made this tag:
Using the word "pedophilia" for the first instance. Is this OK, should #1 above be used or should #2 used but with different wording, or does it matter.
Some projects tag scores of articles related to their object, but I do not that would be a good idea for this project, at all. Instead, I think we should only tag articles that someone is actively working on watching especially closely. Right now three articles are tagged, two are being worked on. But Rind, I had tagged that for POV but I've not got around to going beyond that, so unless someone else is working on it, I (as the tagger) don't object to removing the tag from the article, in fact it might be a good idea. Is that OK, or should it stay? Herostratus 09:30, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Sexual desire felt by an adult for children, or the crime of sex with a child. (From Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation.) FloNight talk 11:50, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Herostratus, JoshuaZ and DanielCD, see my comment below at Lolicon. I think we should label all the articles related to pedophilia and child sexual abuse. We act as an central location for editors to advertise content disputes, place questions about general issues related to topic. Over time interested editors will learn to come here to keep up with articles related to these topics. FloNight talk
Jimbo's take on the Child Modeling (erotic) article...
I guess if anyone scolds us for severly redacting an aricle we can say Just be glad he isn't a project member... Herostratus
Rind et al suddenly gets hot right when I'm lookiing for something to work on that's not. -- DanielCD 13:03, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Lolicon is is an example of an article that should be tagged, right? And a notice about the significant debates brought to the talk page of WP:PAW. This project is an obvious location to advertise a straw poll. Copyright violation, content dispute causing page protection, discussion about the use of imageboard external links with images of child sex acts. If we don't involve the project in these issues, what is our purpose? Am I wrong? FloNight talk 15:11, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm trying to gather consensus to delete this article. There is no verifiable reliable source for the content of the article. Evidently the current content is original research. Look through past versions and you will see that more detailed original research describing the web site has been removed. None of the newspaper articles identify LS Studio by name. I searched through FBI press announcements looking for some evidence that LS Studio was raided. I looked through the United States official statements on human rights violations for Ukraine. Again, I find general reference to the FBI's involvement in shutting down child porn web sites in Ukraine but nothing specifically naming this studio.
This article was nominated for deletion on February 4 2006. The result of the discussion was Keep. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/LS Studio I'm not satisfied with the outcome of this Afd. There was heavy input from pro-pedophilia pov editors. There was a vote from a brand new user. This Afd vote was their first and last edit. Unless someone can find verifiable reliable sources in the next 48 hours I'm going to start another Afd. The article Child pornography already includes this content so there is no need to merge. Make comments at Talk:LS Studio FloNight talk 00:05, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
http://www.customs.ustreas.gov/hot-new/pressrel/2001/0326-00.htm
Here's a site that Wikipedia doesn't have anything on. The Blue Orchid thing. Part of the Candyman stuff? -- DanielCD 14:17, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
I did a little housekeeping, nothing major, except that I changed the definition of "child" to the one that (I think) we had more or less agreed on a while back, this had never been done. Herostratus 10:17, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
From Talk:Child sexual abuse, regarding whether this statment is true: Sexual relations between adults and minors in western society remain controversial.
The problem with this is that minor means 17 and under, adult means 18 and over. Therefore some of the relationships the above sentence describes are between 18-year-olds and 17-year-olds. I don't think that sexual relations between an 18-year-old and a 17-year-old is a problem, and I don't think many people do. Even if one contends that its not ideal, few would say that its sick or twisted or evil.
So the statement at the top is certainly true.
Further, using the expanded definition of "child" as meaning (if not further qualified) "minor", even changing minor to child: Sexual relations between adults and children in western society remain controversial is still true.
In fact, the use of "child" to mean "person under 18" means that the following statements are all true:
You see the problem here.
A guy in Maine was shot dead a few days ago. The killer (possibly a victim of true child sex abuse) picked him at random off the State of Maine sex offender site (Maine does not differentiate between types of offense on its website). His crime was having relations with his girfriend, two weeks shy of of her sixteenth birthday, when he was 19. I think he was in his thirties, maybe late twenties, when he was killed.
We can infer that the guy and his girlfriend were going out behind the backs of the girl's parents. That seems the most likely scenario for him to have been arrested and convicted, when they found out. According to the murdered man's mom, they guy loved the girl and had wanted to eventually marry her, wasn't just preying on her.
Now, this likely wouldn't have been a good situation. If I was that girl's dad in that situation, I would have been plenty mad. But I don't think the guy deserved to die. I don't even think he deserved to have to register for the rest of his life as a sex offender and be listed on state websites. His crime was contributing to the deliquency of a minor, maybe. It wasn't a sex crime, really.
So, yeah, if we're going to get into teen sex and mix that up into one pot with sex abuse of pre-pubescent children, it's gonna make everything harder. Herostratus 04:31, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I change the definition of an ephebophile and pedarast to clearly specify they are adults since a adolescents are never labeled ephebophiles in the scholarly work so far as I've seen. The rest of the terminology section should be modified as it fails to properly specify the age group(s) that a person can be pedophiles. Because of this vagueness, a 10 year old boy attracted to 10 year old girls would be a pedophile which is not how the term in generally used either scientifically or in the mass media. The definition of pedophilia should be made clearer as to who can be a pedophile. Pedophiles should be limited to adults and sometimes adolescents (when their is a significant age difference between the teen and the child such a 15 yo and a 6yo but not say a 13yo and 12yo.). -- Cab88 11:41, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
There is a discussion going on at the Pedophilia and child sexual abuse in fiction article as to a breach of NPOV policy - on the talk page. - 195.93.21.39 04:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
User:Haham hanuka tagged
Pedophilia as NPOV after I reverted
this change. But then he just sort of disappeared, although I asked him to share his concerns on the talk page. It's been on my conscience--I reverted the change because the new language was strange in English and didn't actually support the point I think he was trying to make, not to shut him up or drive him away. So, with him not choosing to continue participation in the article, how do we go about correcting the NPOV and getting the flag off the page?
Thanks!
DanB DanD
21:35, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
A while back I cleaned up Boylove, which was extremely messy at that time. But I just noticed that "childlove" and "girllove" are just redirects to Pedophile activism. Should I make "boylove" the same, or is the chance that unsuspecting manga fans will get a shock enough reason to keep the separate page? DanB DanD 01:31, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Can anybody help with checking the accuracy of User:TlatoSMD's new section about brain surgeries on the pedophilia page? I've already found one basic error: he says thalamotomies and lobotomies are the same thing, which they aren't. But I don't know enough to fix it. DanB†DanD 23:15, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Why is the Child Sexuality article part of PAW?
And why is it called Pedophilia Article Watch?
A paw icon doesn't really reflect in any way the ideas of the article improvement... People are going to think it's a bestiality article watch or something. :P -- Rookiee Revolyob 00:41, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 14:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I was thinking that a better name for the product would be either Child Sexuality Article Watch, or possibly even just Child Article Watch.
At the founding of Pedophilia Article Watch, there was some thought that it might expand in the direction of other paraphilias, but that hasn't happened. I think the current name is bit restrictive, and also might put people off a bit. 'Age of consent reform doesn't really bear directly on pedophilia, for instance. And I watch the article Child and some others that are only tangentially related to pedophilia.
Child Sexuality Article Watchis a little bit more NPOV than Pedophilia Article Watch and allows a little more leeway in the articles watched over. '
Child Article Watchis quite broad. Maybe too broad, I dunno. It would or could include, I guess, all kinds articles relating to child development, children in third world countries, childhood in history, etc. Whether that's too broad I don't know.
Or maybe something else. Or maybe it's OK as it is. Comments welcome. Herostratus 15:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
And you could have a better logo, for instance the one shown here Although this one isn't too good. There are better images in Microsoft clipart, but we can't use use that, even though the only restriction is that we not allow anyone to take the image and put it into a clipart collection when is then sold -- which obviously would never happen, but it's still a restriction... a seesaw connotes both childhood and balance, which is interesting... Herostratus 17:32, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Maybe something like these? Just playing around in inkscape. -- Monotonehell 21:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
This article should come under scrutiny. Editors (myself included) currently come from two ideologically widely opposing sides, and there is much weasel language and agenda. Please help to make it as NPOV as possible. Clayboy 22:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
(Undent)I don't think volume of votes should be a priority in Afds, after all WP:NOT democracy. The Afd should be decided upon weight of the arguments, the volume of votes could be used to sway a borderline argument. The question therefore remains; where did the quality of argument leave us?
Looking at the arguments in the Afd they can be summarised; I guess we should ignore all the "The anti/pedophiles groups are conspiring to edit this article" arguments as a quick google of the terms shows a call for arms from both sides of of the debate. Also ignoring all the "me too" votes...
We are left with; Delete:
Keep:
I can see no compelling arguments either way. They all seem to be arguing at cross purposes, citing the same guidlines and interprting it their way. I probably would have ruled a keep but improve and semi-protect with all edits going through the talk page. But that would have been a lot of effort. The way I see it, this thing exists, isn't transient, is the subject of conjecture and therefore is notable. Knowledge is knowledge, WP:not evil works both ways, we can't bury our heads in the sand upon objectional material - that's censorship. -- Monotonehell 18:21, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, Herostratus; maybe your question at User talk:Yanksox was too cryptic? It didn't directly call for any action to be taken. Also it's now been autoarchived by W.bot and Yanksox hasn't been contributing since the 5th. -- Monotonehell 17:53, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Enough people have worked on this project at one time or another that it'd be reasonable to have a project barnstar, I guess. But uh it's tough coming up with one... how about this:
Herostratus
04:01, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 19:11, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Since we seem to have independently returned our attentions to this article; I was wondering if we might revisit the idea of merging this article with Age of consent. Previously the Stat rape article was too full of POV and other sillyness to be successfully merged (sometime early 2006) so I placed a section into AoC with a "main article" wikilink, until such time as things calmed down on stat rape. Perhaps after we review the content for we might revisit the idea of a merge. Unless after such a review the article warrants a long discussion. -- Monotonehell 09:06, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Editor Chris has tagged Lolicon, Category:Murdered children, Oakland County Child Killer, National Center for Missing and Exploited Children and Child Pornography: Model Legislation & Global Review. I'm in discussion now with Chris over whether he wants to participate actively in the project. If he's not, I think these should all be untagged, unless someone else is working on them. If if is, I still have serious qualms about tagging Category:Murdered children and Oakland County Child Killer, and perhaps National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, although the other articles are OK. Reason being, I'm unsure what connection there is between this project and (say) the Oakland County Child Killer (whoever he is), who may or may not be a pedophile but the operative work here is killer, perhaps this article would be better served by WikiProject Murderers or whatever. Right? Herostratus 17:56, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Proposal. A confirmed and suspected pedophile wikipedian and IP address watchlist within wikiproject pedophilia article watch.
3 ways to confirm:
3 ways to remove user name or IP address:
This would provide a way to track new articles contributions from confirmed pedophiles. -- Masterpedia 17:53, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Good Lord, no. First of all, pedophilia is an affliction, and persons with this affliction are welcome to edit Wikipedia. Like all other Wikipedians, they're expected to check their personal biases at the door. Second of all, the POV problem is not necessarily from pedophiles but from child-sex-normalizers, many of whom (apparently) are not pedophiles but have assorted other motivations for their POV. Third of all, there are no bad editors, only bad edits. Editors may be blocked, blocked indefinitely, or banned for appropriate reasons; but if they are not, they are not they are not they are assumed to enjoy the same good will and rights as any other editor. I believe that it is expressly forbidden to keep "bad lists" of other editors. Herostratus 04:35, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
More ways to remove user name or IP address:
No thanks. Clayboy 05:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Yikes! Next you'll be advocating pitchforks and flaming torch parties. Witchhunts never did anything any good. You obviously don't understand how Wikipedia works (or is supposed to). -- Monotonehell 07:34, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, didn't mean to pile up on you there, Masterpedia. I appreciate your thoughts and energy directed toward the project and certainly look forward to any future ideas, it's just that this one has too many problems to initiate. Cheers, Herostratus 16:27, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
This is stupid. Wikipedia is not the moral police. If someone is a pedophile, let their local law enforcement agencies worry about it. Also, pedophilia can also refer to solely the attraction, not the action.-- Ķĩřβȳ ♥ ♥ ♥ Ťįɱé Ø 09:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree, this is A Bad Thing. Far better to identify people who chronically edit main articles with a strong non-neutral POV, whatever that POV happens to be. If a person is a rabid pedophile activist or has a rabid kill-the-pedos tongue in his Talk page, but he can keep his main-space edits NPOV, then I don't care. I participated in the BoyChat AfD and there were a few editors on both sides worthy of close scrutiny over NPOV issues. There were many more on both sides who edited well. Dfpc 19:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I remember a while ago we were looking into converting these questionable lists into categories. Looking at them now there's a few entries that may or may not be vandalism (hard to tell sometimes). Do people agree that we should convert these lists to a category(ies?), add the cat templates to the listed articles and see what the editors camping on those pages think of that? That way people who are involved with the "outed" topics can have input into whether they should be tagged thusly or if they believe it unsubstantiated. Think on this: If these lists were lists of people instead of fictional works would our stance be different? -- Monotonehell 16:34, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
See [1]. Christopher Connor 21:57, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
However, no one should be blocked for what they are. That's just wrong. Instead, they should at most be asked to remove their self-idenfication, noncompliance being followed by the removal by an outside party, reversion being followed by a warning, and only after further reversion should a block occur. I will see what can be done about this. Herostratus 19:08, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Oh, horsehockey. Anybody who self-identifies as a pedophile had better expect rough treatment. Don't want to be kicked around? Don't tell me about your universally-loathed paraphilia, kthx. But still, in my opinion it was way overreacting to summarily ban them. I am opposed to that, definitely. Herostratus 03:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I am disgusted with Will Beback's bigoted idealogical views. Soon we will blocking communists, sexual deviants, handicapped, and others because they portray "negatively" on the "reputation" of this free encyclopedia that supposedly anyone can edit. ~ UBeR 02:29, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
There is a project member (I wont name them for now) who in email explictly admitted to me that:
I have the emails to send as attachment to anyone who wants them. This member has also went around and requested pictures relating to child porn. It wasnt surprising when I communicated in email to them and found out their true preferences which they obviouslly dont want to make public. I believe that such a member should be blocked and reported to police. I just wanted to let you all know about this situation and that there may be editors like this in editing pedophilia articles and what do you think should be done? -- Matt57 ( talk• contribs) 14:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
For goodness' sake calm down both of you. Matt's question - do we allow/encourage out pedophiles to be associated with this project? - is at least reasonable to ask. There are political angles to this, after all. But I think that Hermitian's response of "It doesn't matter who edits Wikipedia, because all Wikipedia content needs to be from verifiable sources, and NPOV." is spot on, although most of the rest of the post is pretty rude.
I would note, however, that Jimbo and the ArbCom appear to not agree with this; witness that the de facto response to three editors proclaiming themselves to be pedophiles got them banned, and their talk pages protected so one can't even send them a message. And not only that. Apparently no public communications having to do with pedophiles or suspected pedophiles are allowed, and may only be made through the ArbCom mailing list - which is pretty useless, since for almost all of us it can be written to but not read to
Anyway my reading of the whole thing is that it is a Very Bad Idea to accuse anyone of anything, and to go to the ArbCom mailing list with issues. My guess is that any arbitration involving pedophiles or suspected/accused pedophiles will be done by the ArbCom acting as a Star Chamber. I'm not sure that's bad, considering the potential for energy-wasting drama around the whole issue.
In fact I'm not even sure that this conversation is kosher in the eyes of the ArbCom. But the ArbCom is a judicial body, not a legislative or executive one, although Jimbo and The Foundation are.
But I would suggest that we all drop the matter and consider and concentrate only on the edits that editors make, bearing in mind that our response can be colored by outside knowledge. If I know an editor is a communist, I take a closer look than normal at his edits to communism-related articles; that's only human nature and common sense. Herostratus 19:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I suspect (have no direct evidence for) this whole thing is driven by Wikipedia's fear of 3rd party legal liability in being accused of serving as a social networking site, if somebody finds out that somebody underage has used it to contact some self-professed pedophile. That's about it. Despite the fact that Wikipedia is a terrible social networking site, and there are so many other far better ones, that I can't imagine Wikipedia would have much legal exposure before they the system gets through figuring how to deal with this on myspace and a zillion other chatforums plus Usenet. So Wikipedia's role as a target for the legal system is WAAAY down the line, behind the whole rest of the internet.
I wonder if Wikipedia cares if users self-identify in other socially unacceptable roles, like illegal drug user (druggie), homosexual, transexual, formerly convicted criminal (think of the many categories), chronic highway speed law exceder, etc, etc? How about if you self-identify as heterosexual? Where to draw the line? Wikipedia obviously disagrees that sexual orientation per-se is like handedness or haircolor or race. Or perhaps that it is, but that it would okay to put down your lefthandedness or nationality or age, but that sexual orientation (if not the common one, anyway) is off-limits, as "too much information." Which is odd, since Essjay got away with saying he was "gay as Christmas" for quite awhile, and Wikipedia is perfectly willing to record bio information on criminally-convicted acting-pedophiles, if it's well-sourced. So I'm left to conclude that it really is the legal liability issue for editors mentioned above, that is driving this whole thing. S B H arris 19:35, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I created this article and am consulting knowledgeable people to help flesh it out. Some of these people are pedophiles.
Please keep an eye on this for the next few weeks for NPOV issues. I see no need to publicly tag the article.
If you have your own ideas on improving the article, please contribute. Likewise, if you know any other experts, invite them to join in. Dfpc 19:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
All three founders of the PNVD have been listed for deletion. Let's reach a consensus here. Jim♥Burton 19:14, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Here? No, they are on afd and need to remain there, SqueakBox 19:17, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Apparently Jim Burton has been permabanned by User:Fred Bauder of the ArbCom. My understanding is that the reason for this was the contents of his userpage (archive here). Hmmmm. Again: I thought that the solution to an offending userpage was to request, then force, the removal of the offending material, not freaken ban the person for life.
On the other hand, political considerations. Herostratus 01:39, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I dunno man. You can be a Nazi holocaust denier and at least still get your day in court on Wikipedia, but not Jim Burton. It kind of takes the fun out of it if the referee just occasionally shoots members of the opposing team... Herostratus 02:42, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
User:Addhoc, who I don't personally recall meeting and who is not a member, removed the names of two banned editors. I don't agree with this action. The editors didn't behave in a manner to have them drummed out of the project. Their status per the Wikipedia in general is not necessarily germane. I restored them, but with a strikethrough as a compromise. Herostratus 12:41, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Having been directed here by another concerned user, it is easy to see that the spread of misinfornation and subjective opinion on to these pages is out of control. Now that this partisanship has peaked with censorship and witchhunts, I have decided to get involved. Ignorance and misinformation will not win, and my participation is intended to demonstrate that. -- βѺ ►◄ ṮỸ 12:54, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
What's that supposed to mean? Are you threatening me? My contribs are puiblicly available and Jim knows nothing else about me, SqueakBox 18:35, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Checkuser shows they edit from different ips in different countries, so they probably are different people. Fred Bauder 18:50, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm. This brings to mind the slogan of H.Y.D.R.A.: strike one of us down and another will arise (yes I know what a Hydra is). Things are not always as easy and simple as we might like. Herostratus 02:55, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Page was getting long... I archived most of the material and summarized the naming discussion below. Herostratus 00:05, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
It's kind of a toss-up, but based on the above I think that Pedophilia Article Watch is probably good to. Great work, that is name that no one had come up with at first and that was arrived at through discussion. Good stuff. Herostratus 00:05, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
My thoughts on the name are related to the projects goals and the overarching principles that guide them. People have thrown out a lot ideas above and given their ideas about how we should proceed. I feel good about the success of the project after reading over all the comments top to bottom. We have a group of thoughtful people that are discussing it in a positive manner. If we are patient and work together, I think project will work. Even be the pride of 'pedia. : ) I see two separate issues that need to be addressed.
First, I understand that we want to be welcoming. That WP is a wiki that encourages everyone to edit. But I think we should be realistic about the negative influence that over involved user have on an article and WP. For that reason, pedophiles and child sexual abuse victims would be problematic to this project. Regrettably, POV editing, OR, and ownership issues are common among editors that are personally involved in an article’s topic.
Laying out the principles that reflect both wiki openess and the practical reality of involved editor might be helpful. I took these from recent Wikipedia:arbitration committee cases. I think they do a good job of stating the overarching principles of this project. I offer them here because they reflect the earnest and thoughtful reflection of a group of Wikipedians trying to make Wikipedia better. Like most everything else on Wikipedia, they were developed by consensus. That means that they could change if the arbritrators consensus shifts. Or if Jimbo and the Foundation establish something different. They may be interrpreted differently in different situations. Never the less, I think they are a good guide for us.
1. Editing controversial articles There is a special burden imposed on those who choose to edit hotly contested articles. Extra effort must be made to be courteous, communicate adequately with other users, and use reliable sources. Those who are unable to function productively in that context may be banned from such editing.
2. Neutral Point Of View Wikipedia:Neutral point of view contemplates fair expression of all significant points of view which relate to a subject.
3. Extreme points of view Provided they are reasonably courteous and conform to Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines, users who hold views from any political viewpoint are valued members of the Wikipedia community.
4. Verifiability versus original research Users are expected to use reliable published information as the source for the material they place in Wikipedia articles. Subtle overreaching and spinning of information is not acceptable. Wikipedia is not a soapbox.
5. Assume good faith Users are expected to assume good faith with respect the other users, who share the common goal of creating a useful reference work. See Wikipedia:Assume good faith.
6. Personal attacks and incivility Users are expected to be reasonably courteous to other users, especially with respect to contested issues, see Wikipedia:No personal attacks and Wikipedia:Civility. Users who habitually violate these policies may be banned from editing, either in a certain field or from all pages.
7. Involvement in the event Editors who are intimately involved in an event may tend to edit inappropriately in an attempt to present their particular point of view. This may result in the Wikipedia article on the event becoming part of the event. Such persons may be banned from editing with respect to events they are involved with.
8. Tendentious editing Users who engage in sustained, aggressive point-of-view editing may be banned from affected articles, in extreme cases from the entire site.
Based on our recent experience launching this project and the current conflicts on some project related articles, I think we need address these problems up front. This involves naming the project and adopting overarching principles and goals. Then we need to think about how to bring them into the day-to-day operation of the project. In this regard, I think we should be extremely practical. End of Part one (yes, my friends there's more.) FloNight talk 01:24, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I think renaming this to Wikipedia:WikiProject Paraphilia would be helpful in attracting new members to keep it alive and useful, both because it broadens the scope and because it takes it away from the most controversial paraphilia. Ashibaka tock 20:32, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
But also, I guess it's also pretty accurate of what the founders intended, in a way, I guess. The original founders weren't so much interested in the subject of pedophilia per se, and of researching and adding new articles etc., as in cleaning up, verifying, and watching existing articles. I don't know as the project name really imples POV very much. The point is to watch for introduction of POV from either "side", so to speak. There is plenty of POV available from people who are hysterically and uninformedly "anti", so to speak, although I haven't seen that turn up so much in articles lately, as from those who are "pro", so to speak. (Obviously "anti" and "pro" are gross simplifications of a very complicated subject, just using those terms for shorthand.) Herostratus 08:11, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
There is now a watchlist link on the main article page. This is a cool thing, I did not know about this little trick. Basically there is a page called Watchlist that lists a bunch of articles (of course anyone is welcome to add/subtract to it), and clicking on the "Related changes" gives the recent changes for all those articles - like having them on your watchlist but without cluttering up your regular watchlist. Cool. The main page icon is just a shortcut for that. (Also it has a picture of an eye. I put that in because I take any excuse I can get to dork around in Photoshop. But maybe the eye looks too scary, I dunno.) Herostratus 00:05, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Hey. Pedophile Article Watch makes an acronym. I'm not gonna make a userbox but here's a graphic that I'm using on my own page.
Herostratus
16:46, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Wikistalking Herostratus I saw this logo and thought it a bit "wrong". At first glance it looks like it may have association with Furry fandom. Then for a user to click on it and see the word "pedophilia" might lead to some hysteria. Not sure if it's a real potential problem or not. (PS I'm a visual communications professional so I tend to overthink these things - it's my job) -- Monotonehell 09:44, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Is Child sexual abuse on your list to watch? -- DanielCD 15:12, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I am working on the child sexual abuse article. What was up there was full of POV and unsourced statements. Someone has been reverting the changes after I make them. That won't stop me, but I want to bring it to your attention, because clearly the person who is doing so prefers the unverifiable, unsourced POV version. Volpe 02:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
(I moved this to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Pedophilia Article Watch/Terminology for neatness and to prevent its being buried by the next archiving of this page. Herostratus 08:33, 20 April 2006 (UTC))
Could you guys add this article to your watch list? There has been some problems lately about people adding information based on false claims and/or unverified sources. The biggest issue right now is the sentence that reads: "No actual sexual acts were portrayed but there were implied sexual acts such as the models sucking on bananas," eventhough there is no actual evidence of banana sucking. You can see some of the problems on the talk page, although, right now it looks like we've come to a good consensus on the talk page, but I still feel the article will have complications in the future. -- Jelligraze 13:47, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I think we should make an inactive members section for people gone for more than a month. I think User:Ineloquent (Parox) is gone. Perhaps he's resurrected again, but I've no idea if this is so. -- DanielCD 17:13, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
What's the policy on movies and books related to the topic? -- DanielCD 17:40, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Could someone check out the links at the bottom of this article to the "forums" and make sure they are not something slimy? -- DanielCD 18:02, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed Rind et al. (1998) because editors at talk:Rind et al. (1998) insist that it has no connection to Pedophilia. - Will Beback 22:35, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
This project seems to also covers child sexual abuse, which Rind et al. is (needless to say) relevant to. 24.224.153.40 01:08, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Hmmmm, well, a couple points. Its not always really possible to get all the members of a project to agree with precision what all the goals are. Some projects have somewhat broad or vague goals to serve as an umbrella for various people to work under subsets of.
Will, you said "But pedophiles don't actually have sex with children, as you've often said before." I don't recall anyone saying that, and if they did, that's crazy. Obviously at least some pedophiles are child sex criminals.
I myself try to disabuse people of the notion that most child sex criminals are pedophiles (in the scholarly sense of the term), because that's just incorrect, and it makes it hard to have a discussion when people are using a term to mean different things.
But let's not go overboard. That fact that some pedophiles are also child sex criminals is embarassing to law-abiding pedophiles, and it's a fact that I (personally) don't want to overstress for various reasons, but you can't just wave it away either.
Also, the term "pedophile" is used idiomatically to mean "child sex criminal". That's not the scholarly definition, but it is a definition. Because of that, in any article relating to child sex abuse etc., an uninformed editor might replace (say) "child sex criminal" with "pedophile" where that's not appropriate. So those articles have to be watched. We are looking to avoid bias and unscholarly terminology from all quarters.
As far as the project intro and the Goals section... there is a whole little section "Nomenclature", and a subpage for discussion of terminology. (Actually, I think It'd be a good idea to change "Nomeclature" to "Terminology" (I'll do that now, it's purely for clarity, if any objection revert and discuss.)) Anyway, if someone wanted to add "(see Terminology section)" after the word "pedophilia" in the intro and elsewhere, I wouldn't object. Herostratus 09:11, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Using the default Wikipedai template for tagging article talk pages results in this:
Which seemed awkward and wrong, so I made this tag:
Using the word "pedophilia" for the first instance. Is this OK, should #1 above be used or should #2 used but with different wording, or does it matter.
Some projects tag scores of articles related to their object, but I do not that would be a good idea for this project, at all. Instead, I think we should only tag articles that someone is actively working on watching especially closely. Right now three articles are tagged, two are being worked on. But Rind, I had tagged that for POV but I've not got around to going beyond that, so unless someone else is working on it, I (as the tagger) don't object to removing the tag from the article, in fact it might be a good idea. Is that OK, or should it stay? Herostratus 09:30, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Sexual desire felt by an adult for children, or the crime of sex with a child. (From Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation.) FloNight talk 11:50, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Herostratus, JoshuaZ and DanielCD, see my comment below at Lolicon. I think we should label all the articles related to pedophilia and child sexual abuse. We act as an central location for editors to advertise content disputes, place questions about general issues related to topic. Over time interested editors will learn to come here to keep up with articles related to these topics. FloNight talk
Jimbo's take on the Child Modeling (erotic) article...
I guess if anyone scolds us for severly redacting an aricle we can say Just be glad he isn't a project member... Herostratus
Rind et al suddenly gets hot right when I'm lookiing for something to work on that's not. -- DanielCD 13:03, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Lolicon is is an example of an article that should be tagged, right? And a notice about the significant debates brought to the talk page of WP:PAW. This project is an obvious location to advertise a straw poll. Copyright violation, content dispute causing page protection, discussion about the use of imageboard external links with images of child sex acts. If we don't involve the project in these issues, what is our purpose? Am I wrong? FloNight talk 15:11, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm trying to gather consensus to delete this article. There is no verifiable reliable source for the content of the article. Evidently the current content is original research. Look through past versions and you will see that more detailed original research describing the web site has been removed. None of the newspaper articles identify LS Studio by name. I searched through FBI press announcements looking for some evidence that LS Studio was raided. I looked through the United States official statements on human rights violations for Ukraine. Again, I find general reference to the FBI's involvement in shutting down child porn web sites in Ukraine but nothing specifically naming this studio.
This article was nominated for deletion on February 4 2006. The result of the discussion was Keep. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/LS Studio I'm not satisfied with the outcome of this Afd. There was heavy input from pro-pedophilia pov editors. There was a vote from a brand new user. This Afd vote was their first and last edit. Unless someone can find verifiable reliable sources in the next 48 hours I'm going to start another Afd. The article Child pornography already includes this content so there is no need to merge. Make comments at Talk:LS Studio FloNight talk 00:05, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
http://www.customs.ustreas.gov/hot-new/pressrel/2001/0326-00.htm
Here's a site that Wikipedia doesn't have anything on. The Blue Orchid thing. Part of the Candyman stuff? -- DanielCD 14:17, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
I did a little housekeeping, nothing major, except that I changed the definition of "child" to the one that (I think) we had more or less agreed on a while back, this had never been done. Herostratus 10:17, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
From Talk:Child sexual abuse, regarding whether this statment is true: Sexual relations between adults and minors in western society remain controversial.
The problem with this is that minor means 17 and under, adult means 18 and over. Therefore some of the relationships the above sentence describes are between 18-year-olds and 17-year-olds. I don't think that sexual relations between an 18-year-old and a 17-year-old is a problem, and I don't think many people do. Even if one contends that its not ideal, few would say that its sick or twisted or evil.
So the statement at the top is certainly true.
Further, using the expanded definition of "child" as meaning (if not further qualified) "minor", even changing minor to child: Sexual relations between adults and children in western society remain controversial is still true.
In fact, the use of "child" to mean "person under 18" means that the following statements are all true:
You see the problem here.
A guy in Maine was shot dead a few days ago. The killer (possibly a victim of true child sex abuse) picked him at random off the State of Maine sex offender site (Maine does not differentiate between types of offense on its website). His crime was having relations with his girfriend, two weeks shy of of her sixteenth birthday, when he was 19. I think he was in his thirties, maybe late twenties, when he was killed.
We can infer that the guy and his girlfriend were going out behind the backs of the girl's parents. That seems the most likely scenario for him to have been arrested and convicted, when they found out. According to the murdered man's mom, they guy loved the girl and had wanted to eventually marry her, wasn't just preying on her.
Now, this likely wouldn't have been a good situation. If I was that girl's dad in that situation, I would have been plenty mad. But I don't think the guy deserved to die. I don't even think he deserved to have to register for the rest of his life as a sex offender and be listed on state websites. His crime was contributing to the deliquency of a minor, maybe. It wasn't a sex crime, really.
So, yeah, if we're going to get into teen sex and mix that up into one pot with sex abuse of pre-pubescent children, it's gonna make everything harder. Herostratus 04:31, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I change the definition of an ephebophile and pedarast to clearly specify they are adults since a adolescents are never labeled ephebophiles in the scholarly work so far as I've seen. The rest of the terminology section should be modified as it fails to properly specify the age group(s) that a person can be pedophiles. Because of this vagueness, a 10 year old boy attracted to 10 year old girls would be a pedophile which is not how the term in generally used either scientifically or in the mass media. The definition of pedophilia should be made clearer as to who can be a pedophile. Pedophiles should be limited to adults and sometimes adolescents (when their is a significant age difference between the teen and the child such a 15 yo and a 6yo but not say a 13yo and 12yo.). -- Cab88 11:41, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
There is a discussion going on at the Pedophilia and child sexual abuse in fiction article as to a breach of NPOV policy - on the talk page. - 195.93.21.39 04:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
User:Haham hanuka tagged
Pedophilia as NPOV after I reverted
this change. But then he just sort of disappeared, although I asked him to share his concerns on the talk page. It's been on my conscience--I reverted the change because the new language was strange in English and didn't actually support the point I think he was trying to make, not to shut him up or drive him away. So, with him not choosing to continue participation in the article, how do we go about correcting the NPOV and getting the flag off the page?
Thanks!
DanB DanD
21:35, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
A while back I cleaned up Boylove, which was extremely messy at that time. But I just noticed that "childlove" and "girllove" are just redirects to Pedophile activism. Should I make "boylove" the same, or is the chance that unsuspecting manga fans will get a shock enough reason to keep the separate page? DanB DanD 01:31, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Can anybody help with checking the accuracy of User:TlatoSMD's new section about brain surgeries on the pedophilia page? I've already found one basic error: he says thalamotomies and lobotomies are the same thing, which they aren't. But I don't know enough to fix it. DanB†DanD 23:15, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Why is the Child Sexuality article part of PAW?
And why is it called Pedophilia Article Watch?
A paw icon doesn't really reflect in any way the ideas of the article improvement... People are going to think it's a bestiality article watch or something. :P -- Rookiee Revolyob 00:41, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 14:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I was thinking that a better name for the product would be either Child Sexuality Article Watch, or possibly even just Child Article Watch.
At the founding of Pedophilia Article Watch, there was some thought that it might expand in the direction of other paraphilias, but that hasn't happened. I think the current name is bit restrictive, and also might put people off a bit. 'Age of consent reform doesn't really bear directly on pedophilia, for instance. And I watch the article Child and some others that are only tangentially related to pedophilia.
Child Sexuality Article Watchis a little bit more NPOV than Pedophilia Article Watch and allows a little more leeway in the articles watched over. '
Child Article Watchis quite broad. Maybe too broad, I dunno. It would or could include, I guess, all kinds articles relating to child development, children in third world countries, childhood in history, etc. Whether that's too broad I don't know.
Or maybe something else. Or maybe it's OK as it is. Comments welcome. Herostratus 15:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
And you could have a better logo, for instance the one shown here Although this one isn't too good. There are better images in Microsoft clipart, but we can't use use that, even though the only restriction is that we not allow anyone to take the image and put it into a clipart collection when is then sold -- which obviously would never happen, but it's still a restriction... a seesaw connotes both childhood and balance, which is interesting... Herostratus 17:32, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Maybe something like these? Just playing around in inkscape. -- Monotonehell 21:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
This article should come under scrutiny. Editors (myself included) currently come from two ideologically widely opposing sides, and there is much weasel language and agenda. Please help to make it as NPOV as possible. Clayboy 22:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
(Undent)I don't think volume of votes should be a priority in Afds, after all WP:NOT democracy. The Afd should be decided upon weight of the arguments, the volume of votes could be used to sway a borderline argument. The question therefore remains; where did the quality of argument leave us?
Looking at the arguments in the Afd they can be summarised; I guess we should ignore all the "The anti/pedophiles groups are conspiring to edit this article" arguments as a quick google of the terms shows a call for arms from both sides of of the debate. Also ignoring all the "me too" votes...
We are left with; Delete:
Keep:
I can see no compelling arguments either way. They all seem to be arguing at cross purposes, citing the same guidlines and interprting it their way. I probably would have ruled a keep but improve and semi-protect with all edits going through the talk page. But that would have been a lot of effort. The way I see it, this thing exists, isn't transient, is the subject of conjecture and therefore is notable. Knowledge is knowledge, WP:not evil works both ways, we can't bury our heads in the sand upon objectional material - that's censorship. -- Monotonehell 18:21, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, Herostratus; maybe your question at User talk:Yanksox was too cryptic? It didn't directly call for any action to be taken. Also it's now been autoarchived by W.bot and Yanksox hasn't been contributing since the 5th. -- Monotonehell 17:53, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Enough people have worked on this project at one time or another that it'd be reasonable to have a project barnstar, I guess. But uh it's tough coming up with one... how about this:
Herostratus
04:01, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 19:11, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Since we seem to have independently returned our attentions to this article; I was wondering if we might revisit the idea of merging this article with Age of consent. Previously the Stat rape article was too full of POV and other sillyness to be successfully merged (sometime early 2006) so I placed a section into AoC with a "main article" wikilink, until such time as things calmed down on stat rape. Perhaps after we review the content for we might revisit the idea of a merge. Unless after such a review the article warrants a long discussion. -- Monotonehell 09:06, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Editor Chris has tagged Lolicon, Category:Murdered children, Oakland County Child Killer, National Center for Missing and Exploited Children and Child Pornography: Model Legislation & Global Review. I'm in discussion now with Chris over whether he wants to participate actively in the project. If he's not, I think these should all be untagged, unless someone else is working on them. If if is, I still have serious qualms about tagging Category:Murdered children and Oakland County Child Killer, and perhaps National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, although the other articles are OK. Reason being, I'm unsure what connection there is between this project and (say) the Oakland County Child Killer (whoever he is), who may or may not be a pedophile but the operative work here is killer, perhaps this article would be better served by WikiProject Murderers or whatever. Right? Herostratus 17:56, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Proposal. A confirmed and suspected pedophile wikipedian and IP address watchlist within wikiproject pedophilia article watch.
3 ways to confirm:
3 ways to remove user name or IP address:
This would provide a way to track new articles contributions from confirmed pedophiles. -- Masterpedia 17:53, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Good Lord, no. First of all, pedophilia is an affliction, and persons with this affliction are welcome to edit Wikipedia. Like all other Wikipedians, they're expected to check their personal biases at the door. Second of all, the POV problem is not necessarily from pedophiles but from child-sex-normalizers, many of whom (apparently) are not pedophiles but have assorted other motivations for their POV. Third of all, there are no bad editors, only bad edits. Editors may be blocked, blocked indefinitely, or banned for appropriate reasons; but if they are not, they are not they are not they are assumed to enjoy the same good will and rights as any other editor. I believe that it is expressly forbidden to keep "bad lists" of other editors. Herostratus 04:35, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
More ways to remove user name or IP address:
No thanks. Clayboy 05:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Yikes! Next you'll be advocating pitchforks and flaming torch parties. Witchhunts never did anything any good. You obviously don't understand how Wikipedia works (or is supposed to). -- Monotonehell 07:34, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, didn't mean to pile up on you there, Masterpedia. I appreciate your thoughts and energy directed toward the project and certainly look forward to any future ideas, it's just that this one has too many problems to initiate. Cheers, Herostratus 16:27, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
This is stupid. Wikipedia is not the moral police. If someone is a pedophile, let their local law enforcement agencies worry about it. Also, pedophilia can also refer to solely the attraction, not the action.-- Ķĩřβȳ ♥ ♥ ♥ Ťįɱé Ø 09:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree, this is A Bad Thing. Far better to identify people who chronically edit main articles with a strong non-neutral POV, whatever that POV happens to be. If a person is a rabid pedophile activist or has a rabid kill-the-pedos tongue in his Talk page, but he can keep his main-space edits NPOV, then I don't care. I participated in the BoyChat AfD and there were a few editors on both sides worthy of close scrutiny over NPOV issues. There were many more on both sides who edited well. Dfpc 19:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I remember a while ago we were looking into converting these questionable lists into categories. Looking at them now there's a few entries that may or may not be vandalism (hard to tell sometimes). Do people agree that we should convert these lists to a category(ies?), add the cat templates to the listed articles and see what the editors camping on those pages think of that? That way people who are involved with the "outed" topics can have input into whether they should be tagged thusly or if they believe it unsubstantiated. Think on this: If these lists were lists of people instead of fictional works would our stance be different? -- Monotonehell 16:34, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
See [1]. Christopher Connor 21:57, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
However, no one should be blocked for what they are. That's just wrong. Instead, they should at most be asked to remove their self-idenfication, noncompliance being followed by the removal by an outside party, reversion being followed by a warning, and only after further reversion should a block occur. I will see what can be done about this. Herostratus 19:08, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Oh, horsehockey. Anybody who self-identifies as a pedophile had better expect rough treatment. Don't want to be kicked around? Don't tell me about your universally-loathed paraphilia, kthx. But still, in my opinion it was way overreacting to summarily ban them. I am opposed to that, definitely. Herostratus 03:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I am disgusted with Will Beback's bigoted idealogical views. Soon we will blocking communists, sexual deviants, handicapped, and others because they portray "negatively" on the "reputation" of this free encyclopedia that supposedly anyone can edit. ~ UBeR 02:29, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
There is a project member (I wont name them for now) who in email explictly admitted to me that:
I have the emails to send as attachment to anyone who wants them. This member has also went around and requested pictures relating to child porn. It wasnt surprising when I communicated in email to them and found out their true preferences which they obviouslly dont want to make public. I believe that such a member should be blocked and reported to police. I just wanted to let you all know about this situation and that there may be editors like this in editing pedophilia articles and what do you think should be done? -- Matt57 ( talk• contribs) 14:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
For goodness' sake calm down both of you. Matt's question - do we allow/encourage out pedophiles to be associated with this project? - is at least reasonable to ask. There are political angles to this, after all. But I think that Hermitian's response of "It doesn't matter who edits Wikipedia, because all Wikipedia content needs to be from verifiable sources, and NPOV." is spot on, although most of the rest of the post is pretty rude.
I would note, however, that Jimbo and the ArbCom appear to not agree with this; witness that the de facto response to three editors proclaiming themselves to be pedophiles got them banned, and their talk pages protected so one can't even send them a message. And not only that. Apparently no public communications having to do with pedophiles or suspected pedophiles are allowed, and may only be made through the ArbCom mailing list - which is pretty useless, since for almost all of us it can be written to but not read to
Anyway my reading of the whole thing is that it is a Very Bad Idea to accuse anyone of anything, and to go to the ArbCom mailing list with issues. My guess is that any arbitration involving pedophiles or suspected/accused pedophiles will be done by the ArbCom acting as a Star Chamber. I'm not sure that's bad, considering the potential for energy-wasting drama around the whole issue.
In fact I'm not even sure that this conversation is kosher in the eyes of the ArbCom. But the ArbCom is a judicial body, not a legislative or executive one, although Jimbo and The Foundation are.
But I would suggest that we all drop the matter and consider and concentrate only on the edits that editors make, bearing in mind that our response can be colored by outside knowledge. If I know an editor is a communist, I take a closer look than normal at his edits to communism-related articles; that's only human nature and common sense. Herostratus 19:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I suspect (have no direct evidence for) this whole thing is driven by Wikipedia's fear of 3rd party legal liability in being accused of serving as a social networking site, if somebody finds out that somebody underage has used it to contact some self-professed pedophile. That's about it. Despite the fact that Wikipedia is a terrible social networking site, and there are so many other far better ones, that I can't imagine Wikipedia would have much legal exposure before they the system gets through figuring how to deal with this on myspace and a zillion other chatforums plus Usenet. So Wikipedia's role as a target for the legal system is WAAAY down the line, behind the whole rest of the internet.
I wonder if Wikipedia cares if users self-identify in other socially unacceptable roles, like illegal drug user (druggie), homosexual, transexual, formerly convicted criminal (think of the many categories), chronic highway speed law exceder, etc, etc? How about if you self-identify as heterosexual? Where to draw the line? Wikipedia obviously disagrees that sexual orientation per-se is like handedness or haircolor or race. Or perhaps that it is, but that it would okay to put down your lefthandedness or nationality or age, but that sexual orientation (if not the common one, anyway) is off-limits, as "too much information." Which is odd, since Essjay got away with saying he was "gay as Christmas" for quite awhile, and Wikipedia is perfectly willing to record bio information on criminally-convicted acting-pedophiles, if it's well-sourced. So I'm left to conclude that it really is the legal liability issue for editors mentioned above, that is driving this whole thing. S B H arris 19:35, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I created this article and am consulting knowledgeable people to help flesh it out. Some of these people are pedophiles.
Please keep an eye on this for the next few weeks for NPOV issues. I see no need to publicly tag the article.
If you have your own ideas on improving the article, please contribute. Likewise, if you know any other experts, invite them to join in. Dfpc 19:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
All three founders of the PNVD have been listed for deletion. Let's reach a consensus here. Jim♥Burton 19:14, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Here? No, they are on afd and need to remain there, SqueakBox 19:17, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Apparently Jim Burton has been permabanned by User:Fred Bauder of the ArbCom. My understanding is that the reason for this was the contents of his userpage (archive here). Hmmmm. Again: I thought that the solution to an offending userpage was to request, then force, the removal of the offending material, not freaken ban the person for life.
On the other hand, political considerations. Herostratus 01:39, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I dunno man. You can be a Nazi holocaust denier and at least still get your day in court on Wikipedia, but not Jim Burton. It kind of takes the fun out of it if the referee just occasionally shoots members of the opposing team... Herostratus 02:42, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
User:Addhoc, who I don't personally recall meeting and who is not a member, removed the names of two banned editors. I don't agree with this action. The editors didn't behave in a manner to have them drummed out of the project. Their status per the Wikipedia in general is not necessarily germane. I restored them, but with a strikethrough as a compromise. Herostratus 12:41, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Having been directed here by another concerned user, it is easy to see that the spread of misinfornation and subjective opinion on to these pages is out of control. Now that this partisanship has peaked with censorship and witchhunts, I have decided to get involved. Ignorance and misinformation will not win, and my participation is intended to demonstrate that. -- βѺ ►◄ ṮỸ 12:54, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
What's that supposed to mean? Are you threatening me? My contribs are puiblicly available and Jim knows nothing else about me, SqueakBox 18:35, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Checkuser shows they edit from different ips in different countries, so they probably are different people. Fred Bauder 18:50, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm. This brings to mind the slogan of H.Y.D.R.A.: strike one of us down and another will arise (yes I know what a Hydra is). Things are not always as easy and simple as we might like. Herostratus 02:55, 19 May 2007 (UTC)