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This page may have very few watchers. If you do make a query or start a new discussion here, please also leave a note at the project's main talk page, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera |
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The RfC at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Accessibility#RfC on table captions will most likely end with a recommendation that all tables should have captions (see also MOS:DTAB and MOS:TABLECAPTION). This has implications for almost all articles on operas that contain a table of roles as recommended in this style guide. I recommend the following change:
Role | Voice type | Conductor: Richard Wagner |
---|---|---|
The Dutchman | baritone | Johann Michael Wächter |
Senta, Daland's daughter | soprano | Wilhelmine Schröder-Devrient |
Daland, a Norwegian sailor | bass | Friedrich Traugott Reinhold |
Erik, a huntsman | tenor | Carl Risse |
Mary, Senta's nurse | contralto | Thérèse Wächter |
Daland's steersman | tenor | Wenzel Bielezizky |
Norwegian sailors, the Dutchman's crew, young women |
Further details need to be worked out for multiple notable premieres. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 02:57, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
Role | Voice type | Premiere cast, 2 January 1843 Conductor: Richard Wagner |
---|---|---|
The Dutchman | baritone | Johann Michael Wächter |
Senta, Daland's daughter | soprano | Wilhelmine Schröder-Devrient |
Daland, a Norwegian sailor | bass | Friedrich Traugott Reinhold |
Erik, a huntsman | tenor | Carl Risse |
Mary, Senta's nurse | contralto | Thérèse Wächter |
Daland's steersman | tenor | Wenzel Bielezizky |
Norwegian sailors, the Dutchman's crew, young women |
Voceditenore ( talk) 07:28, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
The following table lists the roles with their voice type as in the score, and if known the performer who created the role in the world premiere on 2 January 1843, conducted by the composer:
Role | Voice type | Premiere performer |
---|---|---|
Der Holländer (The Dutchman) | baritone | Johann Michael Wächter |
Senta | soprano | Wilhelmine Schröder-Devrient |
Daland, a Norwegian sailor, Senta's father | bass | Friedrich Traugott Reinhold |
-- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 11:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
Can we please concentrate on the effects of the accessibility RfC on this table and its general features and leave discussion specific to the Dutchman for that article's talk page?
I'm undecided between Voceditenore's proposal and mine; mine condenses the table, VdT's is a minimal change although it doesn't convey any information. I don't like Gerda's because it doesn't provide any information and omits date and conductor which I like there for ease of finding that essential information. It would also be a significant departure from the current scheme. Linking "Voice type" is probably helpful to non-specialist readers, but I wouldn't object to not linking it if consensus so decides. I think italics for role descriptors are widely used and serve to distinguish clearly a role name from other names associated with it, but I would not object to using non-italics. Naturally, I'm enthusiastically in favour of kosboot's suggestion to take this RfC to mean "from this point forward". Nevertheless, this style guide needs to be changed soonish. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 02:12, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
{| class="wikitable"
|+Roles, voice types, and premiere cast
!Role
![[Voice type]]
!Premiere cast, 2 January 1843<br />([[Conducting|Conductor]]: [[Richard Wagner]])
|+{{sronly|Roles, voice types, and premiere cast}}
Absolutely. Thanks so much for this, Michael! I've now added it to the various sections dealing with tables. Best, Voceditenore ( talk) 14:13, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
Can someone remind me why the guideline overleaf uses parentheses around the conductor's entry? I suggest to remove them there, and from now on in articles, too. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 13:29, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
The guideline overleaf recommends that the section "Performance history" appear before "Roles". This doesn't seem to be widely followed and is disputed in this edit summary. What should be done? -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 05:35, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
Opera Project‑class | |||||||
|
This page may have very few watchers. If you do make a query or start a new discussion here, please also leave a note at the project's main talk page, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera |
|
|
The RfC at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Accessibility#RfC on table captions will most likely end with a recommendation that all tables should have captions (see also MOS:DTAB and MOS:TABLECAPTION). This has implications for almost all articles on operas that contain a table of roles as recommended in this style guide. I recommend the following change:
Role | Voice type | Conductor: Richard Wagner |
---|---|---|
The Dutchman | baritone | Johann Michael Wächter |
Senta, Daland's daughter | soprano | Wilhelmine Schröder-Devrient |
Daland, a Norwegian sailor | bass | Friedrich Traugott Reinhold |
Erik, a huntsman | tenor | Carl Risse |
Mary, Senta's nurse | contralto | Thérèse Wächter |
Daland's steersman | tenor | Wenzel Bielezizky |
Norwegian sailors, the Dutchman's crew, young women |
Further details need to be worked out for multiple notable premieres. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 02:57, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
Role | Voice type | Premiere cast, 2 January 1843 Conductor: Richard Wagner |
---|---|---|
The Dutchman | baritone | Johann Michael Wächter |
Senta, Daland's daughter | soprano | Wilhelmine Schröder-Devrient |
Daland, a Norwegian sailor | bass | Friedrich Traugott Reinhold |
Erik, a huntsman | tenor | Carl Risse |
Mary, Senta's nurse | contralto | Thérèse Wächter |
Daland's steersman | tenor | Wenzel Bielezizky |
Norwegian sailors, the Dutchman's crew, young women |
Voceditenore ( talk) 07:28, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
The following table lists the roles with their voice type as in the score, and if known the performer who created the role in the world premiere on 2 January 1843, conducted by the composer:
Role | Voice type | Premiere performer |
---|---|---|
Der Holländer (The Dutchman) | baritone | Johann Michael Wächter |
Senta | soprano | Wilhelmine Schröder-Devrient |
Daland, a Norwegian sailor, Senta's father | bass | Friedrich Traugott Reinhold |
-- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 11:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
Can we please concentrate on the effects of the accessibility RfC on this table and its general features and leave discussion specific to the Dutchman for that article's talk page?
I'm undecided between Voceditenore's proposal and mine; mine condenses the table, VdT's is a minimal change although it doesn't convey any information. I don't like Gerda's because it doesn't provide any information and omits date and conductor which I like there for ease of finding that essential information. It would also be a significant departure from the current scheme. Linking "Voice type" is probably helpful to non-specialist readers, but I wouldn't object to not linking it if consensus so decides. I think italics for role descriptors are widely used and serve to distinguish clearly a role name from other names associated with it, but I would not object to using non-italics. Naturally, I'm enthusiastically in favour of kosboot's suggestion to take this RfC to mean "from this point forward". Nevertheless, this style guide needs to be changed soonish. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 02:12, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
{| class="wikitable"
|+Roles, voice types, and premiere cast
!Role
![[Voice type]]
!Premiere cast, 2 January 1843<br />([[Conducting|Conductor]]: [[Richard Wagner]])
|+{{sronly|Roles, voice types, and premiere cast}}
Absolutely. Thanks so much for this, Michael! I've now added it to the various sections dealing with tables. Best, Voceditenore ( talk) 14:13, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
Can someone remind me why the guideline overleaf uses parentheses around the conductor's entry? I suggest to remove them there, and from now on in articles, too. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 13:29, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
The guideline overleaf recommends that the section "Performance history" appear before "Roles". This doesn't seem to be widely followed and is disputed in this edit summary. What should be done? -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 05:35, 16 October 2020 (UTC)