This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 85 | Archive 86 | Archive 87 | Archive 88 | Archive 89 | Archive 90 | → | Archive 95 |
From a hotel computer in the USA.... User:Catalographer has invented several new categories, e.g. Category:Greco-Roman Egypt in popular culture, Category:Operas based on Classical mythology [sic] etc. and is rapidly adding them to a slew of opera articles. In the process, almost invariably deleteting Category:Operas from the articles. I have managed to revert some of them, and have left a message on his/her talk page to please stop deleting this category. Unfortunately, once the cat is removed from an article the change can no longer be found by looking at Special:RecentChangesLinked/Category:Operas. We'll have to systematically go through Special:Contributions/Catalographer to repair the damage. Sigh! -- Voceditenore ( talk) 15:14, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
See also popular culture
Some thoughts: Opera (a high culture) had been part of the Western European popular culture (in Italy it continues to be) until it was replaced by Cinema. Especially during the Romantic era , classical mucic played a significant role in national awakening by the use of local folklores,legends and history. Soviet operas by definition belong to Socialist popular culture. Outside of Western Europe, opera is regarded as an elite culture. Chinese opera is populal culture in China but not popular in the Western world.
Let's not get into this. "Popular culture" suggests TV, pop music, comics etc. The whole "X in popular culture" craze on Wikipedia started from the "Trivia" sections which accumulated at the end of articles. Nobody really thought too deeply about what "popular culture" meant and the term has been stretched so it has become utterly meaningless. There is absolutely no need for the adjective "popular". It should be "X in the arts", "Cultural references to X" or something like that. -- Folantin ( talk) 19:27, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
I am not conflating several meanings of popular but I propose sections or articles Opera in popular culture or Opera as popular culture, Opera and society or Sociology of Opera Catalographer ( talk) 22:54, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
In the List of important operas there is a sub- list of popular operas.
I'm not sure what you mean by "popular" - many factors go into deciding what's a "popular" or "famous" opera (not necessarily the same thing) and they vary from country to country. The Bartered Bride is enormously popular and famous in the Czech Republic, but rather less so in the US. Number of performances? Number of recordings? Number of Google hits? And how popular? Top 10? Top 20? Top 100? Opera America has produced a list of the 20 most performed operas in North America. Also List_of_important_operas#Lists_consulted lists the 93 operas which appear on all nine lists consulted. Compiling yet another list from scratch is a pretty pointless exercise in subjective judgement (not to mention ethnocentricity) and original research, neither of which belongs on Wikipedia. I certainly hope you aren't planning Category:Popular operas ;-) - Voceditenore ( talk) 21:54, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
I also want to extract something from the above for serious discussion.
'So, there are Soviet-era formalist operas and original Soviet operas (of Socialist realism, Proletkult and Working class culture)'
Is this in fact so? The articles on Socialist realism and Proletkult do not seem to mention a single opera. And although numerous operas were written during the Soviet era, I am not sure that any of them can really count as popular culture. I doubt whether the man on the Astrakhan omnibus ever whistled any operatic hits by tunesmiths such as Shebalin, Kabalevsky or Maiboroda. And all of the operatic works of composers such as these were no less formalist than those of Shostakovich from a musicological point of view (as opposed of course to a political point of view, where the word 'formalism' was simply a useful stick to beat certain people over the head with). So I really doubt whether we can talk about popular Soviet opera - but I would be interested to see if anyone has any examples. Of course Soviet composers who wanted to write popular music wrote film music and light operas/musical comedies (e.g. Shost's Moscow, Cheryomushki) - and much of of this genre is of good quality musically as well - and there are one or two ballets which are still staged - but not I think operas.......I feel an article on Soviet opera coming on......-- Smerus ( talk) 19:40, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
While catching up on what I missed during August, I came across
this message from none other than
Julian Budden on
Talk:La bohème which pointed out that huge chunks of the article had been copy/pasted (or extremely closely paraphrased) from Grove by former OP member
Nrswanson (now indef blocked for sockpuppetry). Fortunately,
Folantin promptly fixed it for us. But Nrswanson has a long history of this, and was a prolific "contributor" to opera-related articles. I've made a page where we can start checking his contributions. I've already done some, but it's quite laborious for me as I don't have access to Grove on line and always need to email another editor for the copies of the articles. If any of you have access to Grove online and have a bit of spare time, could you check out User:Voceditenore/Close paraphrase (Grove). Best,
Voceditenore (
talk)
06:14, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Update Note: the clean-up page is now at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Subpage for organizing CopyVio Cleanup, all articles to be checked can be found there. Voceditenore ( talk) 16:23, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
As an autumn project I am hoping to expand this Start-class article about an important opera, unless someone else is currently engaged on it. On my part this will be quite a slow burner, but I would hope to have something substantial by mid-November. And...if anyone has any info on soundfiles I'd love to know about it. Brianboulton ( talk) 21:03, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
The Opera of the Month collaboration focuses on improving existing articles. We need something quick as October looms. All suggestions welcomed. I'll have very little time in October for this, but here are two suggestions to get the ball rolling.
Best, Voceditenore ( talk) 10:51, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
The Composer of the Month collaboration focuses on composers in the opera corpus whose works still lack articles. Suggestions please, tempus fugits. Voceditenore ( talk) 10:52, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Some suggestions...
German Romantics
OR
Zarzuela composers
OR
Women composers
OR
Composers of operas based on Greek mythology
- Voceditenore ( talk) 16:02, 27 Sep 2009 (UTC)
A question about this has been placed on Talk:La Basoche page, which may be of interest to the Opera Project. Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 11:31, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
User:Rlendog has just gone on an editing spree and created numerous stubs on Wagner role creators; most of which need references, cats, and other fixes. I'd appriciate some help in tackling the cleanup. I've listed the articles he has created below. Singingdaisies ( talk) 22:27, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Since the operas of the month are Monteverdi operas, might I suggest the following singers (all with articles in Grove) to be added from those operas: Giovanni Gualberto Magli (L'Orfeo), Giovanni Maria Bacchini (L'Orfeo), Francesco Campagnolo (L'Arianna), Maddalena Manelli (Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria), and Baldassarre Ferri (L'incoronazione di Poppea). Singingdaisies ( talk) 05:20, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
This one seems to have slipped through the net, i.e. it hasn't been discussed here, AFAIK. There's no particular harm in it, but is it useful to anyone? Also, what about operas that are set in more than one country or in no country? Candide, L'Africaine, Manon Lescaut, Billy Budd, et al... -- Guillaume Tell 21:12, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
I hope that you'll forgive my intruding a special case under this heading in preference to starting a new one. For whatever silly reason, I've been adding tags for "Category: Operas set in the United States," which carries an "underpopulated" flag, to various candidates that were missing. Mostly as a result, the total has risen from 20-odd to 46. Dunno whether that is enough to justify removing the flag from the category's page, and even if it is, I'm not comfortable doing so when I've been involved in the expansion, so I thought I'd raise the issue here in hopes that someone more knowledgeable might address it. A related question: the article for Britten's Paul Bunyan is titled Paul Bunyan (operetta) but carries category tags for operas. On the strength of the latter, I included it in "Operas set in the United States"; if that decision was off base, would somebody please fix it? Thanks! -- Drhoehl ( talk) 21:23, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Anyone interested might like to look at the discussion at Talk:Oedipus rex (opera). FWIW, there is only one other title in Category:Latin-language operas, and Opera Grove goes for Oedipus rex. -- Guillaume Tell 20:20, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
I spotted today that User:Gryffindor had moved Teatro Regio di Torino (but not, AFAICS, any other opera house names) to the above last month. I queried this at his/her talk page and received a rather unsatisfactory reply on mine. What's the next step? -- Guillaume Tell 21:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
This makes sense to me. Viva-Verdi ( talk) 20:36, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 85 | Archive 86 | Archive 87 | Archive 88 | Archive 89 | Archive 90 | → | Archive 95 |
From a hotel computer in the USA.... User:Catalographer has invented several new categories, e.g. Category:Greco-Roman Egypt in popular culture, Category:Operas based on Classical mythology [sic] etc. and is rapidly adding them to a slew of opera articles. In the process, almost invariably deleteting Category:Operas from the articles. I have managed to revert some of them, and have left a message on his/her talk page to please stop deleting this category. Unfortunately, once the cat is removed from an article the change can no longer be found by looking at Special:RecentChangesLinked/Category:Operas. We'll have to systematically go through Special:Contributions/Catalographer to repair the damage. Sigh! -- Voceditenore ( talk) 15:14, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
See also popular culture
Some thoughts: Opera (a high culture) had been part of the Western European popular culture (in Italy it continues to be) until it was replaced by Cinema. Especially during the Romantic era , classical mucic played a significant role in national awakening by the use of local folklores,legends and history. Soviet operas by definition belong to Socialist popular culture. Outside of Western Europe, opera is regarded as an elite culture. Chinese opera is populal culture in China but not popular in the Western world.
Let's not get into this. "Popular culture" suggests TV, pop music, comics etc. The whole "X in popular culture" craze on Wikipedia started from the "Trivia" sections which accumulated at the end of articles. Nobody really thought too deeply about what "popular culture" meant and the term has been stretched so it has become utterly meaningless. There is absolutely no need for the adjective "popular". It should be "X in the arts", "Cultural references to X" or something like that. -- Folantin ( talk) 19:27, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
I am not conflating several meanings of popular but I propose sections or articles Opera in popular culture or Opera as popular culture, Opera and society or Sociology of Opera Catalographer ( talk) 22:54, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
In the List of important operas there is a sub- list of popular operas.
I'm not sure what you mean by "popular" - many factors go into deciding what's a "popular" or "famous" opera (not necessarily the same thing) and they vary from country to country. The Bartered Bride is enormously popular and famous in the Czech Republic, but rather less so in the US. Number of performances? Number of recordings? Number of Google hits? And how popular? Top 10? Top 20? Top 100? Opera America has produced a list of the 20 most performed operas in North America. Also List_of_important_operas#Lists_consulted lists the 93 operas which appear on all nine lists consulted. Compiling yet another list from scratch is a pretty pointless exercise in subjective judgement (not to mention ethnocentricity) and original research, neither of which belongs on Wikipedia. I certainly hope you aren't planning Category:Popular operas ;-) - Voceditenore ( talk) 21:54, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
I also want to extract something from the above for serious discussion.
'So, there are Soviet-era formalist operas and original Soviet operas (of Socialist realism, Proletkult and Working class culture)'
Is this in fact so? The articles on Socialist realism and Proletkult do not seem to mention a single opera. And although numerous operas were written during the Soviet era, I am not sure that any of them can really count as popular culture. I doubt whether the man on the Astrakhan omnibus ever whistled any operatic hits by tunesmiths such as Shebalin, Kabalevsky or Maiboroda. And all of the operatic works of composers such as these were no less formalist than those of Shostakovich from a musicological point of view (as opposed of course to a political point of view, where the word 'formalism' was simply a useful stick to beat certain people over the head with). So I really doubt whether we can talk about popular Soviet opera - but I would be interested to see if anyone has any examples. Of course Soviet composers who wanted to write popular music wrote film music and light operas/musical comedies (e.g. Shost's Moscow, Cheryomushki) - and much of of this genre is of good quality musically as well - and there are one or two ballets which are still staged - but not I think operas.......I feel an article on Soviet opera coming on......-- Smerus ( talk) 19:40, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
While catching up on what I missed during August, I came across
this message from none other than
Julian Budden on
Talk:La bohème which pointed out that huge chunks of the article had been copy/pasted (or extremely closely paraphrased) from Grove by former OP member
Nrswanson (now indef blocked for sockpuppetry). Fortunately,
Folantin promptly fixed it for us. But Nrswanson has a long history of this, and was a prolific "contributor" to opera-related articles. I've made a page where we can start checking his contributions. I've already done some, but it's quite laborious for me as I don't have access to Grove on line and always need to email another editor for the copies of the articles. If any of you have access to Grove online and have a bit of spare time, could you check out User:Voceditenore/Close paraphrase (Grove). Best,
Voceditenore (
talk)
06:14, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Update Note: the clean-up page is now at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Subpage for organizing CopyVio Cleanup, all articles to be checked can be found there. Voceditenore ( talk) 16:23, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
As an autumn project I am hoping to expand this Start-class article about an important opera, unless someone else is currently engaged on it. On my part this will be quite a slow burner, but I would hope to have something substantial by mid-November. And...if anyone has any info on soundfiles I'd love to know about it. Brianboulton ( talk) 21:03, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
The Opera of the Month collaboration focuses on improving existing articles. We need something quick as October looms. All suggestions welcomed. I'll have very little time in October for this, but here are two suggestions to get the ball rolling.
Best, Voceditenore ( talk) 10:51, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
The Composer of the Month collaboration focuses on composers in the opera corpus whose works still lack articles. Suggestions please, tempus fugits. Voceditenore ( talk) 10:52, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Some suggestions...
German Romantics
OR
Zarzuela composers
OR
Women composers
OR
Composers of operas based on Greek mythology
- Voceditenore ( talk) 16:02, 27 Sep 2009 (UTC)
A question about this has been placed on Talk:La Basoche page, which may be of interest to the Opera Project. Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 11:31, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
User:Rlendog has just gone on an editing spree and created numerous stubs on Wagner role creators; most of which need references, cats, and other fixes. I'd appriciate some help in tackling the cleanup. I've listed the articles he has created below. Singingdaisies ( talk) 22:27, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Since the operas of the month are Monteverdi operas, might I suggest the following singers (all with articles in Grove) to be added from those operas: Giovanni Gualberto Magli (L'Orfeo), Giovanni Maria Bacchini (L'Orfeo), Francesco Campagnolo (L'Arianna), Maddalena Manelli (Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria), and Baldassarre Ferri (L'incoronazione di Poppea). Singingdaisies ( talk) 05:20, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
This one seems to have slipped through the net, i.e. it hasn't been discussed here, AFAIK. There's no particular harm in it, but is it useful to anyone? Also, what about operas that are set in more than one country or in no country? Candide, L'Africaine, Manon Lescaut, Billy Budd, et al... -- Guillaume Tell 21:12, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
I hope that you'll forgive my intruding a special case under this heading in preference to starting a new one. For whatever silly reason, I've been adding tags for "Category: Operas set in the United States," which carries an "underpopulated" flag, to various candidates that were missing. Mostly as a result, the total has risen from 20-odd to 46. Dunno whether that is enough to justify removing the flag from the category's page, and even if it is, I'm not comfortable doing so when I've been involved in the expansion, so I thought I'd raise the issue here in hopes that someone more knowledgeable might address it. A related question: the article for Britten's Paul Bunyan is titled Paul Bunyan (operetta) but carries category tags for operas. On the strength of the latter, I included it in "Operas set in the United States"; if that decision was off base, would somebody please fix it? Thanks! -- Drhoehl ( talk) 21:23, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Anyone interested might like to look at the discussion at Talk:Oedipus rex (opera). FWIW, there is only one other title in Category:Latin-language operas, and Opera Grove goes for Oedipus rex. -- Guillaume Tell 20:20, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
I spotted today that User:Gryffindor had moved Teatro Regio di Torino (but not, AFAICS, any other opera house names) to the above last month. I queried this at his/her talk page and received a rather unsatisfactory reply on mine. What's the next step? -- Guillaume Tell 21:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
This makes sense to me. Viva-Verdi ( talk) 20:36, 7 October 2009 (UTC)