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This section was blanked by Robert K S. I have restored it. -- Klein zach 00:41, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Okeydokey: Whereas the current text in the "infobox" section offers a guideline that proscribes biographical infoboxes in opera articles, and whereas this guideline asserts consensus on the issue, and whereas the discussions this section links to demonstrate, to the contrary, a lack of consensus over the issue, be it proposed that this section be reworded so as not to make an untrue assertion of consensus. Further be it proposed that this guideline section not recommend the placement of text on articles that links back to the aforesaid section as a method of enforcing an "anti-infobox" guideline. (The present version of the section was instituted in an edit by User:Voceditenore on 2008-03-22T12:08:27. [2] The section was amended with text proposed by Voceditenore and consented to by User:Kleinzach and User:Smerus between March 17 and March 22, 2008. [3]) Robert K S ( talk) 05:43, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
1. Robert K S, no one is "enforcing" anything. The invisible "tag" is a polite request directing editors to our guidelines. And note that the guidelines say it "can be added", not "must be added", or even "should be added". Editors can ignore the Opera Project request and sometimes do (although we've never before had anyone come straight here and blank the guidelines instead). If an editor feels strongly that a particular article would benefit from an infobox, the issue can then be thrashed out on the article talk page and some sort of compromise reached. Do you have a problem with that?
2. You completely mischaracterize the guidelines. Apart from your rejection that we have a consensus for them amongst project members, what is so objectionable about:
the use of currently-available biographical infoboxes and especially those which have been designed for non-classical musicians is often counterproductive on opera singer and opera composer biographies. The information that can be given below the image in infoboxes is not sufficiently flexible, can lead to oversimplification and ambiguity, and, when placed at the head of the article, simply repeats information that should be in the first sentences in any case. No infoboxes should be added to opera singer or composer articles without first obtaining consensus on the article's talk page.
3. We do not "place enforcement tags at the tops of all articles claimed to be under our purview". Nor has there been "any mass tagging". I personally don't use them except in the rare cases where there has been a real infobox issue with a particular article. There are probably around 3000 opera-related biographical articles between singers, composers and librettists. Our project is very oriented to creating content. All of us have better things to do than run around mass tagging articles. We also have better things to do than watch 3000 pages. You are of course welcome to check all of the biographical articles with an Opera Project banner and their histories to determine this for yourself. Voceditenore ( talk) 06:05, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Comment. I wasn't implying that some people haven't objected to our guideline. I was asking what you personally find objectionable in:
and:
I disagree with you that the inline request "asserts jursidiction" or "enforces" or "prohibits" anything. However, that is your interpretation of it. and as you have said elsewhere you "won't tolerate little nag tags being placed across the encyclopedia on all sorts of articles because a small group of people decide they want to pre-empt the creation of infoboxes with a bogus guideline." [10]. So I'm assuming from this that you are not interested in working out a new wording for the inline text, and your goal is simply to have it prohibited. The short answer to your question about why the preference has been not to have infoboxes rather than designing a special one is that people felt they can't be perfected to overcome their inherent problems unless they become glorified captions which merely repeat what's already in the first two sentences of the article. Likewise, there is no Wikipedia-wide requirement to have them. Nor was consensus ever obtained to start introducing them in the first place, as far as I know.
But really, the opposition to infoboxes long pre-dates me joining the opera project, and I'm not committed to any particular wording of that guideline. Perhaps some of the other project members in the last discussion can answer your questions far better than I. I'm currently working on two new articles and the week-end approaches. I'm stepping out of this discussion for the time being. Unfortunately, you came in here firing with both barrels, so to speak, blanking pages and using words like "disingenuous", "bogus", "cabal", etc. It would not be surprising if many people here are reluctant to substantively engage with you at this point. But I hope they do. Voceditenore ( talk) 09:10, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I do have one adendum to above. By reverting Robert K S.'s change to the Callas article I guess that could be viewed as placing an in-line text. In the case of Callas I do believe that an info-box would be counterproductive to that article. I would be happy to explain why on that articles talk page. I personally do not object to info-boxes on all opera articles but they would create problems on many articles. Each article presents its own challanges so its hard to necessarily sum up a definitive list of reasons. Nrswanson ( talk) 11:11, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Once again we do not ban info boxes. Info boxes are allowed if you read the guideline. Although I think a better hidden text would read "please do not add an info box without discussing it first on this article's talk page". This would be more in keeping with the actual policy at the project. I personally think a viable info box is a good idea, although I still think that on many articles it would be difficult to apply by virtue of several factors. First, voice type is not always a constant throughout a singers career nor would it be accurate to list several voice types as readers would assume that a singer possesed all voice types simultaneously which would also be inaccurate. It is much better to discuss the voice outside of an info box and talk about growth, development, changes, etc. throughout a singers career. Also, in singers like Callas there is often many different views on what particular voice type a singer has. Second, opera singers don't usually get offered record contracts and often record on a plethera of labels. Therefore, a labels section would not apply to most singers. Third, most opera singers don't have web sites. Fourth, a years active is often hard to define with classical musicians as you can count from several different places. Do you count notable student appearances at things like the Aspen Music Festival and Wolf Trap Opera which often result in commercial recordings but are technically not professional or do you only count professional productions? Do you count professional work in opera choruses preceding actual portrayal of roles? Do you stop when the singer no longer appears in stage roles but may still appear in recital/concert performances? (For example Kathleen Battle hasn't appeared in an opera since 1994 but still gives the rare recital and Jessye Norman is more or less retired but still ocassionally will sing a recital of lieder.) Without giving a lengthy definition of years active (which would not work for an info box) it would be misleading information. In short the only information that could be accurately represented in most cases is name, dates and places of birth and death and occupation, all of which is presented in the first sentence of opera singer articles. Nrswanson ( talk) 15:40, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Not off hand Robert. But as you can see info boxes are hard to adapt to opera singer articles which is one reason why the project created its policy with the hidden text. It's not that we here at the project are anti info-box per say but that info boxes have proven to be counterproductive rather than a useful tool. I personally think info boxes that contain only information in an articles lead are redundant and therefore contrary to Wikipedia:Style, and as demonstrated by my points above, only a few opera singer articles will be able to use an info box in a way that actually improves the article. Nrswanson ( talk) 07:12, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Members of this project are already sick to the back teeth of this issue. (I just thought that sentence was worth repeating.)-- Peter cohen ( talk) 08:44, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Robert K S has just made his fourth reversion of the Maria Callas page, see [11]. His edit summary explains: "This will be discussed at Wikiproject Opera and at higher levels. No editor or group of editors gets to tag an article that links to a bogus guideline for which consensus cannot be demonstrated." Robert K S should read the Three-revert rule: "An editor must not perform more than three reverts, in whole or in part, on a single page within a 24-hour period. -- Klein zach 14:18, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, possibly the last of his disruptive editing per se, but he's now brought it to the Policies and guidelines talk page, although he's only discussing a 'hypothetical project'. Nevertheless, he completely mis-characterizes the current wording of the guideline and its application and claims it only has the support of three members of the project. Personally, I'd stay out of the discussion there unless he starts naming names, so to speak. I'm still trying to write my article on Johann Georg Conradi. {{{{Sigh}}}} Voceditenore ( talk) 05:08, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 55 | Archive 56 | Archive 57 | Archive 58 | Archive 59 | Archive 60 | → | Archive 65 |
This section was blanked by Robert K S. I have restored it. -- Klein zach 00:41, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Okeydokey: Whereas the current text in the "infobox" section offers a guideline that proscribes biographical infoboxes in opera articles, and whereas this guideline asserts consensus on the issue, and whereas the discussions this section links to demonstrate, to the contrary, a lack of consensus over the issue, be it proposed that this section be reworded so as not to make an untrue assertion of consensus. Further be it proposed that this guideline section not recommend the placement of text on articles that links back to the aforesaid section as a method of enforcing an "anti-infobox" guideline. (The present version of the section was instituted in an edit by User:Voceditenore on 2008-03-22T12:08:27. [2] The section was amended with text proposed by Voceditenore and consented to by User:Kleinzach and User:Smerus between March 17 and March 22, 2008. [3]) Robert K S ( talk) 05:43, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
1. Robert K S, no one is "enforcing" anything. The invisible "tag" is a polite request directing editors to our guidelines. And note that the guidelines say it "can be added", not "must be added", or even "should be added". Editors can ignore the Opera Project request and sometimes do (although we've never before had anyone come straight here and blank the guidelines instead). If an editor feels strongly that a particular article would benefit from an infobox, the issue can then be thrashed out on the article talk page and some sort of compromise reached. Do you have a problem with that?
2. You completely mischaracterize the guidelines. Apart from your rejection that we have a consensus for them amongst project members, what is so objectionable about:
the use of currently-available biographical infoboxes and especially those which have been designed for non-classical musicians is often counterproductive on opera singer and opera composer biographies. The information that can be given below the image in infoboxes is not sufficiently flexible, can lead to oversimplification and ambiguity, and, when placed at the head of the article, simply repeats information that should be in the first sentences in any case. No infoboxes should be added to opera singer or composer articles without first obtaining consensus on the article's talk page.
3. We do not "place enforcement tags at the tops of all articles claimed to be under our purview". Nor has there been "any mass tagging". I personally don't use them except in the rare cases where there has been a real infobox issue with a particular article. There are probably around 3000 opera-related biographical articles between singers, composers and librettists. Our project is very oriented to creating content. All of us have better things to do than run around mass tagging articles. We also have better things to do than watch 3000 pages. You are of course welcome to check all of the biographical articles with an Opera Project banner and their histories to determine this for yourself. Voceditenore ( talk) 06:05, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Comment. I wasn't implying that some people haven't objected to our guideline. I was asking what you personally find objectionable in:
and:
I disagree with you that the inline request "asserts jursidiction" or "enforces" or "prohibits" anything. However, that is your interpretation of it. and as you have said elsewhere you "won't tolerate little nag tags being placed across the encyclopedia on all sorts of articles because a small group of people decide they want to pre-empt the creation of infoboxes with a bogus guideline." [10]. So I'm assuming from this that you are not interested in working out a new wording for the inline text, and your goal is simply to have it prohibited. The short answer to your question about why the preference has been not to have infoboxes rather than designing a special one is that people felt they can't be perfected to overcome their inherent problems unless they become glorified captions which merely repeat what's already in the first two sentences of the article. Likewise, there is no Wikipedia-wide requirement to have them. Nor was consensus ever obtained to start introducing them in the first place, as far as I know.
But really, the opposition to infoboxes long pre-dates me joining the opera project, and I'm not committed to any particular wording of that guideline. Perhaps some of the other project members in the last discussion can answer your questions far better than I. I'm currently working on two new articles and the week-end approaches. I'm stepping out of this discussion for the time being. Unfortunately, you came in here firing with both barrels, so to speak, blanking pages and using words like "disingenuous", "bogus", "cabal", etc. It would not be surprising if many people here are reluctant to substantively engage with you at this point. But I hope they do. Voceditenore ( talk) 09:10, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I do have one adendum to above. By reverting Robert K S.'s change to the Callas article I guess that could be viewed as placing an in-line text. In the case of Callas I do believe that an info-box would be counterproductive to that article. I would be happy to explain why on that articles talk page. I personally do not object to info-boxes on all opera articles but they would create problems on many articles. Each article presents its own challanges so its hard to necessarily sum up a definitive list of reasons. Nrswanson ( talk) 11:11, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Once again we do not ban info boxes. Info boxes are allowed if you read the guideline. Although I think a better hidden text would read "please do not add an info box without discussing it first on this article's talk page". This would be more in keeping with the actual policy at the project. I personally think a viable info box is a good idea, although I still think that on many articles it would be difficult to apply by virtue of several factors. First, voice type is not always a constant throughout a singers career nor would it be accurate to list several voice types as readers would assume that a singer possesed all voice types simultaneously which would also be inaccurate. It is much better to discuss the voice outside of an info box and talk about growth, development, changes, etc. throughout a singers career. Also, in singers like Callas there is often many different views on what particular voice type a singer has. Second, opera singers don't usually get offered record contracts and often record on a plethera of labels. Therefore, a labels section would not apply to most singers. Third, most opera singers don't have web sites. Fourth, a years active is often hard to define with classical musicians as you can count from several different places. Do you count notable student appearances at things like the Aspen Music Festival and Wolf Trap Opera which often result in commercial recordings but are technically not professional or do you only count professional productions? Do you count professional work in opera choruses preceding actual portrayal of roles? Do you stop when the singer no longer appears in stage roles but may still appear in recital/concert performances? (For example Kathleen Battle hasn't appeared in an opera since 1994 but still gives the rare recital and Jessye Norman is more or less retired but still ocassionally will sing a recital of lieder.) Without giving a lengthy definition of years active (which would not work for an info box) it would be misleading information. In short the only information that could be accurately represented in most cases is name, dates and places of birth and death and occupation, all of which is presented in the first sentence of opera singer articles. Nrswanson ( talk) 15:40, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Not off hand Robert. But as you can see info boxes are hard to adapt to opera singer articles which is one reason why the project created its policy with the hidden text. It's not that we here at the project are anti info-box per say but that info boxes have proven to be counterproductive rather than a useful tool. I personally think info boxes that contain only information in an articles lead are redundant and therefore contrary to Wikipedia:Style, and as demonstrated by my points above, only a few opera singer articles will be able to use an info box in a way that actually improves the article. Nrswanson ( talk) 07:12, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Members of this project are already sick to the back teeth of this issue. (I just thought that sentence was worth repeating.)-- Peter cohen ( talk) 08:44, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Robert K S has just made his fourth reversion of the Maria Callas page, see [11]. His edit summary explains: "This will be discussed at Wikiproject Opera and at higher levels. No editor or group of editors gets to tag an article that links to a bogus guideline for which consensus cannot be demonstrated." Robert K S should read the Three-revert rule: "An editor must not perform more than three reverts, in whole or in part, on a single page within a 24-hour period. -- Klein zach 14:18, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, possibly the last of his disruptive editing per se, but he's now brought it to the Policies and guidelines talk page, although he's only discussing a 'hypothetical project'. Nevertheless, he completely mis-characterizes the current wording of the guideline and its application and claims it only has the support of three members of the project. Personally, I'd stay out of the discussion there unless he starts naming names, so to speak. I'm still trying to write my article on Johann Georg Conradi. {{{{Sigh}}}} Voceditenore ( talk) 05:08, 29 May 2008 (UTC)